I vote that Wobbuffet is Uber. It seems that I'm a bit late to this party, so rather than regurgitate what everyone has said, I'll just say that I agree with most every reason people have provided that Wobbuffet is Uber.
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***[VOTE] The final Wobbuffet "discussion" thread***
- Thread starter imperfectluck
- Start date
- Status
Wobbuffet is uber. He takes skill out of the game, can't be countered, and is impossible for any team to deal with. Agreeing with what everybody else has said. He brings an unneccessary guessing game when he comes out (am I going to Encore or Counter?) and it has too great of an effect on the metagame. Banning Wobbuffet would allow stall teams to roam easier, and it is necessary.
Wobbuffet is uber, but the community as a whole has been unwilling or unable (or both) to convincingly prove this through practice, which worries me a lot more than how easily pokemon beats pokemon with move.
The only theories that have changed or arisen since the start of DP, when it was banned whether or not its banishment was fair, have regarded Tickle. The only practice that has differed from the aforementioned theories has regarded Tickle. What I am saying is that in every way, the last 4-5 months with Wobbuffet on the ladder have been a gigantic waste of time, because the "practice" has done absolutely nothing to show why Wobbuffet is any different from how we thought it was at the start of DP.
When I think about it this has more to do with Colin unbanning it without consulting the community than anything else, but the point stands: the same failure to take action will ultimately be the reason Deoxys-S will likely stay OU for a long time, judging from the bold voting in its thread so far. This observation has fueled the goal behind my "Wobbuffet discussion" forever, so much that people think I'm playing devil's advocate or straying off topic by not coming out with my opinion on Wobbuffet, as if the lone opinion of a person who rarely plays anymore matters in the grand scheme of things.
The only theories that have changed or arisen since the start of DP, when it was banned whether or not its banishment was fair, have regarded Tickle. The only practice that has differed from the aforementioned theories has regarded Tickle. What I am saying is that in every way, the last 4-5 months with Wobbuffet on the ladder have been a gigantic waste of time, because the "practice" has done absolutely nothing to show why Wobbuffet is any different from how we thought it was at the start of DP.
When I think about it this has more to do with Colin unbanning it without consulting the community than anything else, but the point stands: the same failure to take action will ultimately be the reason Deoxys-S will likely stay OU for a long time, judging from the bold voting in its thread so far. This observation has fueled the goal behind my "Wobbuffet discussion" forever, so much that people think I'm playing devil's advocate or straying off topic by not coming out with my opinion on Wobbuffet, as if the lone opinion of a person who rarely plays anymore matters in the grand scheme of things.
Wobbuffet cannot be countered, as it cannot be switched out of. From the counters persepctive, it is uncounterable (not necessarily uber material though).
Statistically, Wobbuffet has caused no significant shifts in the metagame.
Wobbuffet's effect on the metagame is not appreciated, at least by me. Switching is one of the most powerful tools available to a competitive battler, and if it has to be limited, it should be just that, limited, not completely removed.
Wobbuffet should be uber, not because of its potential broken factor, but how its effect on the metagame is undesireable. From my perspective, Wobbufet is actually the exception to the rule; we mostly ban to uber because of the broken or centralizing factor. However, Wobbuffet has shown no clear broken or centralizing issues, and I believe it should be banned simply because of the fact that it completely eliminates a vital aspect of the game (well that and it has access to the perfect move for a Pokemon that removes switching, Encore).
Statistically, Wobbuffet has caused no significant shifts in the metagame.
Wobbuffet's effect on the metagame is not appreciated, at least by me. Switching is one of the most powerful tools available to a competitive battler, and if it has to be limited, it should be just that, limited, not completely removed.
Wobbuffet should be uber, not because of its potential broken factor, but how its effect on the metagame is undesireable. From my perspective, Wobbufet is actually the exception to the rule; we mostly ban to uber because of the broken or centralizing factor. However, Wobbuffet has shown no clear broken or centralizing issues, and I believe it should be banned simply because of the fact that it completely eliminates a vital aspect of the game (well that and it has access to the perfect move for a Pokemon that removes switching, Encore).
Wobbuffet is able to trap and kill any 1-2 pokes a game, essentially a targeted assault on the walls which block your team, or the sweepers which would destroy you. Even if they don't attack Wobb, being able to set up on your own counter is just as good.
Teams based around Wobbuffet + set up allow an extremely lazy style of play to come out on top for a mediocre player with the same consistency as any of the top players using a "normal" team--note that I do not believe Wobbuffet teams will win more than regular ones, just that they do so alarmingly easily. I think my favorite thing that I said regarding Wobbuffet teams' play style is, "This is not the way the game should be played," and I stand by that. It takes any of what could be considered skill in this game and turns it into a mechanical process.
Plus, you know, it's impossible to reasonably prepare for. That seems pretty important too.
Wobbuffet is Uber.
Teams based around Wobbuffet + set up allow an extremely lazy style of play to come out on top for a mediocre player with the same consistency as any of the top players using a "normal" team--note that I do not believe Wobbuffet teams will win more than regular ones, just that they do so alarmingly easily. I think my favorite thing that I said regarding Wobbuffet teams' play style is, "This is not the way the game should be played," and I stand by that. It takes any of what could be considered skill in this game and turns it into a mechanical process.
Plus, you know, it's impossible to reasonably prepare for. That seems pretty important too.
Wobbuffet is Uber.
Wobbuffet is Uber. It's been said by everybody but Obi/AA/Mekkah and I don't feel like repeating anything. Wobb allows the user to gain control of the match far too easily by throwing switching out of the window and allowing a free set up to much bigger things. People don't enjoy facing Wobbuffet, and it ends now.
I have to say Wobbuffet is Uber I'm afraid, as much as I try to agree with Nintendo's in-game reasoning on what should and should not be allowed, Wobbuffet is pretty much the only one I disagree with. It's impact is highly negative, I have had more trouble dealing with this Pokémon in OU than any other in the relatively short-time it's been allowed. You can't prepare against it like you can with the likes of Garchomp, there's no way around it. It will put a dent in your team no matter how well built it is. I can't really say that for any other Pokémon in OU because it is possible to easily defeat those without them ripping you apart first.
I am going with the majority here saying that Wobbuffet is Uber as it is unique in how it can mess up opposing teams even though there are very few counters which are high up in the OU tier that I can think of.
If the sole / primary reason for Wobbuffet being uber is that you cannot switch, then you will also have to prove that Dugtrio, Diglett, Trapinch, Magnezone, Magneton, Magnemite, Probopass, Nosepass, and Wynaut are not uber, or else they would fall under this ban as well.
I don't really like what I'm having to resort to to counter that, but here goes...
For one, Wobbuffet and Wynaut can trap ALMOST ANYTHING. The Diglett family and Trapinch are limited to non-Levitaters and non-Flyers. The Nosepass and Magnemite families are limited further in what they can trap. Ceteris paribus, the two groups combined couldn't trap the number of Pokemon that Wobbuffet and Wynaut can trap.
Second, the thing that sets apart Wobbuffet and Wynaut from everything else is, of course, Encore. Encore allows the two to come in on walls, cripple the wall's ability to do what they do, and let some other Pokemon come in scot-free and set up a sweep. This kind of set up is alarmingly easy to accomplish and takes very little skill to execute.
Finally, it doesn't help that Counter and Mirror Coat enable Wobbuffet (and Wynaut to a lesser extent) to revenge-kill Choiced Pokemon while maintaining maximum defense-EV investment. (In fact, ceteris paribus, the only Choiced attacks in OU that come to my mind that 4 HP/252 Def Bold Wobbuffet CAN'T be guaranteed to survive are the Modest Adaptibility Specs Porygon-Z Hyper Beam and the Adamant Band Rampardos Head Smash.)
:justin:
God that's quite a bit of theorymon (except for the ease of the Encore setup with Wobbuffet), but I hope this does establish that the inability to switch out of Wobbuffet CANNOT be the sole argument for it being Uber.
For one, Wobbuffet and Wynaut can trap ALMOST ANYTHING. The Diglett family and Trapinch are limited to non-Levitaters and non-Flyers. The Nosepass and Magnemite families are limited further in what they can trap. Ceteris paribus, the two groups combined couldn't trap the number of Pokemon that Wobbuffet and Wynaut can trap.
Second, the thing that sets apart Wobbuffet and Wynaut from everything else is, of course, Encore. Encore allows the two to come in on walls, cripple the wall's ability to do what they do, and let some other Pokemon come in scot-free and set up a sweep. This kind of set up is alarmingly easy to accomplish and takes very little skill to execute.
Finally, it doesn't help that Counter and Mirror Coat enable Wobbuffet (and Wynaut to a lesser extent) to revenge-kill Choiced Pokemon while maintaining maximum defense-EV investment. (In fact, ceteris paribus, the only Choiced attacks in OU that come to my mind that 4 HP/252 Def Bold Wobbuffet CAN'T be guaranteed to survive are the Modest Adaptibility Specs Porygon-Z Hyper Beam and the Adamant Band Rampardos Head Smash.)
:justin:
God that's quite a bit of theorymon (except for the ease of the Encore setup with Wobbuffet), but I hope this does establish that the inability to switch out of Wobbuffet CANNOT be the sole argument for it being Uber.
Wobbuffet is uber, not just because of its ability and movepool, but its effect on a battle. Statistics don't matter in the case of Wobbuffet because the ones that we are using only show usage and not how something is actually put into practice. I have personally used it and seen how it can completely turn a battle around. "Counters" don't matter because it's been estabilished that Wobbuffet cannot be countered. It's easy for it to trap anything besides other Shadow Tag-users and find a way to hinder them or beat them.
Don't throw strawmen around - this is far from the main argument why people are arguing Wobbuffet is uber.
Furthermore comparing Wobbuffet to Arena Trap Pokemon and Magnet Pull Pokemon is like comparing an aspirin to an elixir - considering they are extremely limited on what they can "trap" (Dugtrio can only kill the physically defense impaired, Magnezone is limited to Steels who lack a Fighting/Ground/Fire Attack) and lacks Encore and can't set Pokemon up like Wobbuffet does.
Hell, I'm going to go as far as refute your post.
You claim that Skill Swap not working properly made Wobbuffet "stronger"? Pray tell, what kind of serious battler would even use Skill Swap in a serious battle? And what about Encore? I'm not even sure of that glitch considering I've seen it range - and 4 free turns is "more than enough" since the opponent will be forced to switch out to stop any more free turns anyway.
If you wish to further "debate" wobbuffet, I recommend not throwing strawmen around, and not saying "little mechanic changes made it too powerful" (I remember the "arguments" thrown around in the old wobby thread - those are meaningless arguments for the reasons I refuted them in the thread) since the power changes are MINISCULE to what it can do ANYWAY. Wobbuffet only needs to Encore, MAYBE safeguard, and then switch out to set up a Pokemon.
The statistical argument is also absolutely pointless - considering you can't provide us with any evidence why your statistical analysis reflects how the game is played at all. Yes, we can't say why your statistics are "wrong" but that doesn't matter - it is your job to show us why it is absolutely correct and why your "wobbuffet was not overcentralizing" arguments even have merit - ESPECIALLY because Overcentralizing is NOT the only reason we should ban Pokemon.
Please, TRY and convince us why Wobbuffet is indeed "not uber" instead of throwing around arguments that have little to do with the entire debate OR throwing around arguments that have no basis what so ever.
Really? No one is arguing that?
This is ignoring the more than half dozen posts where people give more vague responses of "controls the pace of the game" and "removes skill", which is, as far as I can tell, essentially just another way of saying "Doesn't allow switching.".
When I made that post, I was under the impression that Encore was bugged (and that was my main point). Colin corrected me, so I retested it. After I realized my mistake, I quickly edited my post to simply remove the reference to Encore. This left my post with the unfortunate implication that Skill Swap was the huge error.
It's not a stawman if people are actually using it as their argument.
What? How does it not show that? What more would you want? Obviously the current statistics do not show which teams are being used and which items are being used, but they are by no means "pointless". If you really feel that way, then why didn't you post in the thread before in which Colin asked what statistics would be useless? Unless, of course, you think all statistics are meaningless, in which case there really is no point in us testing anything, let's just play it out with "theorymon".
If you feel this way, then why haven't you posted in The definition of uber thread? We can't prove Pokemon are / are not uber by metrics that you fail to define.
This really cuts into the root of all of this. Everyone waits until after the decision is made to start complaining about what happens and says "You never consulted the community!". We've had these threads open for months now, but few people have posted. To be blunt, if you waited that long without explaining your thoughts on the matter, you don't really have a leg to stand on now to be outraged at the arguments presented. You (the general you here, not just you in particular, Tangerine) had plenty of time to question the methodology for determining whether something is uber. In that thread, only Aldaron (and I, in the opening post) even mentioned using criteria other than centralization.
Why then, if you are so opposed to measuring a Pokemon's uberness by measuring the resulting centralization have you not posted in the most important (in fact, the only topic) that could currently support such a viewpoint? You don't completely ignore the discussion on how to determine whether a Pokemon is uber and then come back later and use a completely different method.
This goes for anyone. I, personally, am not going to give much weight to anyone's vote on whether something is uber if they haven't shown any interest in actually discussing what that means. Why should I care when Joe User says "It's uber because it changes the game"? If I wouldn't care if some non-badged person said so, why should I care if you (again, the general you, not the Tangerine you) say the exact same thing?
The point of Policy Review was originally to have the sharpest minds of Smogon debate and set Policy through logical discourse. The lack of attention paid to certain topics when their subject is the foundation of other topics people are so eager to cast their vote in makes me wonder whether I made the wrong choice when I agreed that all badge-holders ought to be able to post here.
Of course, you can still all prove that it was a good choice by taking an interest and doing the actual legwork required to be responsible in your decision-making.
Or you can just cast a knee-jerk vote.
Some may have simplified it down to that (Trust me, if it was up to me, those votes wouldn't even count, then again, neither will yours or AA's, considering they're not reasons that are "well backed up"), but the argument is more complicated than "Doesn't allow switching". This is why I called your argument a strawman - you are unnecessarily simplifying an argument in order to make your attacks on the argument easier. This is a bit silly afterall.
It's a strawman for the reason I mentioned above, furthermore, bringing in Magnezone and Dugtrio and simplifying what wobbuffet itself can do to that is a pretty crappy argument especially since it was refuted more than once - It is a pretty terrible argument simply because Magnezone and Dugtrio are used to ONLY kill the Pokemon it traps, Wobbuffet can do this AND Encore. If Wobbuffet didn't have Encore, it would be perfectly fine in OU.
I'm sure my position on statistics have been shown before - on how right now it's pretty much drawing random lines and hoping that they become a concrete picture.
Statistics are arbitrary simply because we can't really test anything, and that so far, no one, not even colin, AA, you, have shown that they can make a full judgement of the metagame from simply "statistics" other than "These pokemon are being used". The statistics that are always pointed to shows one side on the many sides of competitive battling and this is why I always say "they mean nothing" since no one has been able to even hypothesize the full impact a Pokemon will have based on "pure statistics" (Well, I tried but no one commented on them so w/e)
The thread has been inactive forever? I have made other threads regarding the metagame over and over again, with my own view of things. I'm pretty sure that this thread pretty much showed that overcentralization is something we can't decide on and arbitrary anyway, I'm shocked people are still using it.
I'm not going to excuse myself for "not being here"(because I was literally away from the internet) while Wobby/Deoxys S was unbanned but honestly I think what Shoddy did is best equivilent to finding a dark room somewhere to discuss this and hand out fliers to a community that has shown itself to be uncompetitive and apathetic unless it's right in front of them. I'm sure if you guys put in huge red letters in the oppening page that "WE ARE THINKING ABOUT UNBANNING DEOXYS E AND WOBBUFFET", then I'm sure it would have gotten a lot more reactions. Hell, even the "hypothetical" Mew/Darkrai threads have gotten quite a few reactions in this forum.
Also I was under the impression that Ubers thread went nowhere - are you guys now telling me there was some consensus reached? At this point I really wonder the point of PR itself considering Stark has proven itself (with a few moderations) to be capable of churning out more reasoning that some of the people in this thread and Deoxys E thread combined, ESPECIALLY since many of you guys don't even have experience playing with/against either of them and it shows.
Well, after Obi decided to quote my post, I realize how stupid my reasoning for Wobbuffet being uber was. I've typed this up explaining exactly why I think Wobbuffet is uber.
Ability- Yes, I am going to argue that not allowing ANY pokemon to switch (besides other Wobbuffet/Wynaut, shed shell, and users of a select few attacks that aren't used ever, so don't bring up that bullshit) is a huge part of why Wobbuffet should be banned. Wobbuffet gets to choose what it wants to fight and when it comes in, it's that simple. Now there have been arguements "Well Dugtrio/Magnezone/other pokemon can do the same thing, ban them!" Here I'll outline exactly WHY Wobbuffet is better than every other trapping pokemon.
Dugtrio- Paper thin defenses mean that Dugtrio can't afford to take a hit. Flying and Levitating pokemon are also immune to Arena Trap. Not only this, but to do anything, Dugtrio must have an attack boosting item. A Choice Band is most often used, which means Dugtrio is locked into whatever attack you used, meaning once you KO your opponent (assuming you manage to), your opponent essentially gets a free turn to do whatever they want. This means you can be giving your opponent a free Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot, whatever. The same goes for Diglett and Trapnich. Dugtrio is not trapping anything with physical defense, such as Hippowdon and Donphan anytime soon either. Wobbuffet does not have any of these problems.
Magnezone- Magnezone is limited to trapping steel type pokemon. Now if I counted correctly, there are 9 OU steel type pokemon, which are the following:
6. Bronzong
7. Lucario
8. Heatran
11. Metagross
16. Skarmory
18. Forretress
25. Magnezone
28. Jirachi
35. Scizor
Out of those pokemon, Magnezone has a realistic chance at trapping and KOing 4, possibly 5. These pokemon being Bronzong, Skarmory, Forretress and some Metagross, assuming they aren't Agility sets. Lucario and Heatran both have SE STAB attacks and both outspeed Magnezone. Jirachi and Scizor carry U-turn in almost every set, and CM Jirachi can set up against Magnezone considering after 2 CM's, Thunderbolt won't break the substitute. Magnezone vs Magnezone either leaves you gone or crippled, and isn't a good situation all together. So Magnezone is limited to reliably trapping something like 8.5% of all OU pokemon, 4/47. This goes for Magneton and Probopass and Nosepass as well.
So why is Wobbuffet so much better than all of these pokemon? Wobbuffet's Shadow Tag has almost no limit . Wobbuffet has the ability to trap steels, flying pokemon, levitators, and everything else that doesn't have Shadow Tag. But is it really Wobbuffet's ability that makes it REALLY broken? Well, yes and no. It's the combination of Shadow Tag and Encore that make Wobbuffet so deadly.
Encore- Encore takes any guesswork/prediction that a player normally would've had to do, and eliminates it. You now know EXACTLY what is going to happen, and put yourself into a huge advantage. Your opponent is stuck in against Wobbuffet, and is doing one of the following:
A.) Attacking
B.) Statusing
C.) Using a stat up move
In situation A, Wobbuffet can either Counter, Mirror Coat, or switch into something that can easily take the attack. Wobbuffet turns the opponent into a choice set, except the opponent can predict to switch out when you switch. In situation B, Wobbuffet uses Safeguard, and the next pokemon comes for free. Nothing can touch it, and it gets a free turn to do whatever it wants. Situation C plays out the same way as situation B. This means that either you have to attack Wobbuffet, in which case you're losing said pokemon, or give your opponent a free turn to do whatever they want. One free stat up can be the difference between a win and a loss.
Like IPL mentions, Wobbuffet does this at will, at whatever time it wants. Wobbuffet won't be 2HKO'd by CB Garchomp, because Wobbuffet won't be coming in on CB Garchomp. Wobbuffet won't be 2HKO'd by Gengar's Shadow Ball because, well, Wobbuffet won't be coming in on Gengar. The user picks and chooses exactly what it wants Wobbuffet to take on. A fine exmaple of this can be found here:
Yes, this is TAY's battle against husk. The reason this log is used so widely in Wobbuffet arguements is because both TAY and husk are very high level battlers. Husk is one of the best players that smogon has produced, and would normally crush anyone who made the minor mistakes that TAY did. However, because of Wobbuffet's combination of Shadow Tag and Encore, TAY managed to turn the battle in his favor and win handily anyways. Do we really want the player who played worse (no offense TAY) to win the match? Obi, I know you advocate having "The best player always win". Wobbuffet's abilitys in a match can, and will cause the better player to lose, because there is nothing that you can do about it.
For these reasons, I say Wobbuffet is UBER.
Ability- Yes, I am going to argue that not allowing ANY pokemon to switch (besides other Wobbuffet/Wynaut, shed shell, and users of a select few attacks that aren't used ever, so don't bring up that bullshit) is a huge part of why Wobbuffet should be banned. Wobbuffet gets to choose what it wants to fight and when it comes in, it's that simple. Now there have been arguements "Well Dugtrio/Magnezone/other pokemon can do the same thing, ban them!" Here I'll outline exactly WHY Wobbuffet is better than every other trapping pokemon.
Dugtrio- Paper thin defenses mean that Dugtrio can't afford to take a hit. Flying and Levitating pokemon are also immune to Arena Trap. Not only this, but to do anything, Dugtrio must have an attack boosting item. A Choice Band is most often used, which means Dugtrio is locked into whatever attack you used, meaning once you KO your opponent (assuming you manage to), your opponent essentially gets a free turn to do whatever they want. This means you can be giving your opponent a free Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot, whatever. The same goes for Diglett and Trapnich. Dugtrio is not trapping anything with physical defense, such as Hippowdon and Donphan anytime soon either. Wobbuffet does not have any of these problems.
Magnezone- Magnezone is limited to trapping steel type pokemon. Now if I counted correctly, there are 9 OU steel type pokemon, which are the following:
6. Bronzong
7. Lucario
8. Heatran
11. Metagross
16. Skarmory
18. Forretress
25. Magnezone
28. Jirachi
35. Scizor
Out of those pokemon, Magnezone has a realistic chance at trapping and KOing 4, possibly 5. These pokemon being Bronzong, Skarmory, Forretress and some Metagross, assuming they aren't Agility sets. Lucario and Heatran both have SE STAB attacks and both outspeed Magnezone. Jirachi and Scizor carry U-turn in almost every set, and CM Jirachi can set up against Magnezone considering after 2 CM's, Thunderbolt won't break the substitute. Magnezone vs Magnezone either leaves you gone or crippled, and isn't a good situation all together. So Magnezone is limited to reliably trapping something like 8.5% of all OU pokemon, 4/47. This goes for Magneton and Probopass and Nosepass as well.
So why is Wobbuffet so much better than all of these pokemon? Wobbuffet's Shadow Tag has almost no limit . Wobbuffet has the ability to trap steels, flying pokemon, levitators, and everything else that doesn't have Shadow Tag. But is it really Wobbuffet's ability that makes it REALLY broken? Well, yes and no. It's the combination of Shadow Tag and Encore that make Wobbuffet so deadly.
Encore- Encore takes any guesswork/prediction that a player normally would've had to do, and eliminates it. You now know EXACTLY what is going to happen, and put yourself into a huge advantage. Your opponent is stuck in against Wobbuffet, and is doing one of the following:
A.) Attacking
B.) Statusing
C.) Using a stat up move
In situation A, Wobbuffet can either Counter, Mirror Coat, or switch into something that can easily take the attack. Wobbuffet turns the opponent into a choice set, except the opponent can predict to switch out when you switch. In situation B, Wobbuffet uses Safeguard, and the next pokemon comes for free. Nothing can touch it, and it gets a free turn to do whatever it wants. Situation C plays out the same way as situation B. This means that either you have to attack Wobbuffet, in which case you're losing said pokemon, or give your opponent a free turn to do whatever they want. One free stat up can be the difference between a win and a loss.
Like IPL mentions, Wobbuffet does this at will, at whatever time it wants. Wobbuffet won't be 2HKO'd by CB Garchomp, because Wobbuffet won't be coming in on CB Garchomp. Wobbuffet won't be 2HKO'd by Gengar's Shadow Ball because, well, Wobbuffet won't be coming in on Gengar. The user picks and chooses exactly what it wants Wobbuffet to take on. A fine exmaple of this can be found here:
Code:
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
husk sent out Nidoqueen (lvl 100 Nidoqueen ?).
TAY-hime sent out Azelf (lvl 100 Azelf).
Azelf used Taunt.
Nidoqueen fell for the taunt!
Nidoqueen used Toxic Spikes.
Nidoqueen can't use Toxic Spikes after the taunt!
---
husk switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
A sandstorm brewed!
Azelf used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around your foe's team!
The sandstorm rages.
Azelf is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Azelf lost 6% of its health.
---
Azelf used Explosion.
It's not very effective...
Tyranitar lost 77% of its health.
TAY-hime's Azelf fainted.
Tyranitar used Stone Edge.
But there was no target!
The sandstorm rages.
---
TAY-hime switched in Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
Metagross used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 23% of its health.
husk's Tyranitar fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Ryu_Testing has entered the room.
husk switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
Pointed stones dug into Starmie.
Starmie lost 12% of its health.
TAY-hime switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Starmie used Surf.
Wobbuffet lost 26% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Starmie is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
Starmie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Starmie restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
Starmie used Rapid Spin.
Starmie blew away the spikes!
Wobbuffet lost 2% of its health.
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Starmie got an encore!
The sandstorm rages.
Starmie is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
Starmie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Starmie restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
TAY-hime switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's intimidate cut Starmie's attack!
Starmie used Rapid Spin.
Gyarados lost 3% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Starmie is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Starmie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Starmie restored 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
husk switched in Gengar (lvl 100 Gengar ?).
Gyarados used Dragon Dance.
Gyarados's attack was raised.
Gyarados's speed was raised.
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Gengar used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
Gyarados lost 97% of its health.
TAY-hime's Gyarados fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
---
TAY-hime switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Gengar used Thunderbolt.
Wobbuffet lost 25% of its health.
Wobbuffet used Mirror Coat.
Gengar lost 88% of its health.
husk's Gengar fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Wobbuffet is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
husk switched in Nidoqueen (lvl 100 Nidoqueen ?).
Nidoqueen used Toxic Spikes.
Spikes were scattered everywhere!
Toxic Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Nidoqueen got an encore!
The sandstorm rages.
Wobbuffet is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
Nidoqueen used Toxic Spikes.
Toxic Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Wobbuffet used Safeguard.
Your team became cloaked in a mystic veil!
The sandstorm rages.
Wobbuffet is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
TAY-hime switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Nidoqueen used Toxic Spikes.
But it failed!
The sandstorm rages.
---
husk switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
Tyranitar used Dragon Dance.
Tyranitar's attack was raised.
Tyranitar's speed was raised.
The sandstorm rages.
Starmie is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
Starmie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Starmie restored 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Crunch.
It's super effective!
Starmie lost 88% of its health.
husk's Starmie fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
husk switched in Nidoqueen (lvl 100 Nidoqueen ?).
Tyranitar used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Nidoqueen lost 73% of its health.
Nidoqueen used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 56% of its health.
Your team is no longer protected by Safeguard!
The sandstorm rages.
Tyranitar's leftovers restored its health a little!
Tyranitar restored 6% of its health.
Nidoqueen's leftovers restored its health a little!
Nidoqueen restored 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Nidoqueen lost 33% of its health.
husk's Nidoqueen fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Tyranitar's leftovers restored its health a little!
Tyranitar restored 6% of its health.
---
husk switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Tyranitar used Crunch.
Garchomp lost 62% of its health.
Garchomp used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 56% of its health.
TAY-hime's Tyranitar fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
TAY-hime switched in Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
husk switched in Magnezone (lvl 100 Magnezone).
Metagross used Hidden Power.
It's not very effective...
Magnezone lost 12% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Magnezone's leftovers restored its health a little!
Magnezone restored 6% of its health.
---
Metagross used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Magnezone lost 94% of its health.
husk's Magnezone fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
husk switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Garchomp used Substitute.
Garchomp lost 25% of its health.
Garchomp made a substitute!
Metagross used Explosion.
The substitute took damage for Garchomp!
Garchomp's substitute faded!
TAY-hime's Metagross fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Garchomp's Salac Berry raised its speed!
---
TAY-hime: damnit
TAY-hime switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Wobbuffet was badly poisoned!
Wobbuffet was badly poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Jarin has entered the room.
Garchomp used Earthquake.
Wobbuffet lost 34% of its health.
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Garchomp got an encore!
The sandstorm rages.
Wobbuffet is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Earthquake.
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
TAY-hime's Wobbuffet fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
TAY-hime switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Garchomp was badly poisoned!
Garchomp was badly poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Garchomp used Earthquake.
Garchomp lost 54% of its health.
Garchomp used Earthquake.
Garchomp lost 13% of its health.
husk's Garchomp fainted.
TAY-hime wins!Yes, this is TAY's battle against husk. The reason this log is used so widely in Wobbuffet arguements is because both TAY and husk are very high level battlers. Husk is one of the best players that smogon has produced, and would normally crush anyone who made the minor mistakes that TAY did. However, because of Wobbuffet's combination of Shadow Tag and Encore, TAY managed to turn the battle in his favor and win handily anyways. Do we really want the player who played worse (no offense TAY) to win the match? Obi, I know you advocate having "The best player always win". Wobbuffet's abilitys in a match can, and will cause the better player to lose, because there is nothing that you can do about it.
For these reasons, I say Wobbuffet is UBER.
It is logically impossible for me to be using a strawman when that is the complete and literal argument that some people are using. A strawman attack is, by the very definition of the term, arguing against proposition Y, which is similar to proposition X, in hopes to refute proposition X. If people are actually claiming proposition Y in their arguments, I simply cannot be making a strawman.
What you are essentially saying is "Don't argue against anyone who doesn't agree with me!", which would seem to imply that you are guilty of using a strawman. It doesn't matter if you aren't making that as your primary argument; there are more people than you in this debate.
If you are arguing against the combination of Encore and the ability to trap, that's different. However, many people are just saying "It removes switching, therefore it is uber.". From this, Dugtrio, Magnezone, and the rest ought to be uber as well, as they also remove switching. Don't get mad at me for arguing a point people are actually making.
What? This makes no sense.
As I said, in the only Policy Review topic on the matter of what determines whether something is uber, only one person other than me even mentioned using something other than the measure of centralization. Colin, AA, I, and even chaos are not mind readers. We can't meet your needs of determining what is uber if you don't mention it until after the fact.
It has been inactive because people refused to post their thoughts in it. Come on, that's a circular argument. "I'm not going to post in it because people aren't posting in it!". Did you ever consider that maybe other people were having the same thoughts? But to be honest, that's a rather poor argument when you consider that it's still on the first page of Policy Review (like every other thread), only 12 threads down. It's never bad to bump a topic if you are still adding to it.
The day you find a method that we can use to determine whether something is uber that everyone will agree with and is completely non-arbitrary is the day I'll invent a time machine that runs on butter.
I'm not saying you had to voice your opinion at the start or stay quiet. In fact, I said the exact opposite! I specifically said there is still time for you to state what method you feel we should be using to determine whether something is uber by posting in that thread. It's never too late to have an honest debate.
Yes, because a server that continuously has 150+ users on (as well as a few links and discussion on the Smogon forums and the Shoddy forums) is "a dark room". I don't see how people have a problem with a method that specifically targets the people most affected by this: the people who are on the server the changes went into effect on. Do you seriously have a problem with having people who actively battle be the primary target of the debate?
We did.
I seriously hope you don't mean me, because I've been an active battler since well before Deoxys-S was unbanned. If I lack experience battling against them it's because not many people use them because (in my opinion) they don't fit well onto a lot of teams.
And to respond to Jrrrrrrr, who deleted his post after making thinly veiled insults:
Are you really trying to pin the "Oh no he doesn't listen to anyone we are all just ignored" garbage on me? Come on, think about this for a moment.
If I really wanted to just ignore everyone, why would I bother posting here? Better yet, why would this discussion have occurred:
[21:21] <+Obi> I'd rather have it more like the old DP analysis
[21:21] <+Teifu> that's fine with me too Obi
[21:21] <+Obi> Everyone can read, but only certain people can post
[21:21] <@Aeolus> that's not hard either, i can do that
[21:21] <+Teifu> I just think it's very valuable to have somewhere only the people we want debating can debate
[21:22] <+Obi> OK
[21:22] <@Aeolus> if you give me a list of people
[21:22] <+Teifu> it's a much more controlled medium
[21:22] <+Obi> Then I'll hold off hitting post for my newest topic until then
[21:22] <+Teifu> I'll include it in that IS topic I'll make once we get back to talking about sports and fire emblem in #smogon
[21:22] <@Aeolus> you guys just work up a list of people you want to have access
[21:22] <@Aeolus> and send it to me
If I wanted to ignore people, why would I have suggested a forum like this? Wouldn't it be much easier to just not bother?
Oh, really?
Well now that one of the posts was deleted, let's see some of the other posts you brought up that was supposedly "making that argument" Let's look at the ENTIRE POST.
Every single reason is more than "You can't switch". (Aldaron's argument is very, very, borderline) No one is making the argument "just because you can't switch", there are other reasons behind that you end up simplifying down to "Cannot Switch". There's a lot more to it, since Cannot Switch is only the beginning of the issues with Wobbuffet. No one is making that simplified argument of "you cannot switch" - there are a huge set of effects caused by that is unique to Wobbuffet. While it is true that all the problems ARE caused because "you cannot switch", this is only a simplified and purely watered down way of summarizing anyone's arguments here.
I should have clarified a bit more.
Statistics, I feel is the art of messing with numbers in order to illustrate a certain effect. At this point, where the numbers aren't experimented upon (actively changing one variable) but being passively observed, we cannot make any claims using statistics about this point without the risk of it being completely arbitrary.
I'm not going to bother responding to the other statements - I'll make a post in the Ubers thread much later when I get more time(I didn't even know the discussion was still going and thought it was "dead" so i let it be) and prevent this thread from going any more off topic. I apologize if I made any "rash" statements since I was afterall, away for a long period of time and not really active while the DeoxysE/Wobbuffet debate raged on.
I deleted my post because my insults weren't that thinly veiled. I was trying to both keep the thread on topic and not get infracted (but mostly the second one)
I wasn't talking about you, Obi, specifically, but instead the "you" referring to the people blaming the community for a lack of action. Saying that this decision is now concrete because nobody spoke up about it sooner is asinine.
We bought into the tests because fair arguments were presented, and as a community we wanted to see what would happen with these sweeping changes to our game. Getting an entire gaming community to accept these as tests was an accomplishment in itself. Now you are angry because we didn't speak up at a time that's convenient to you? Why didn't you give us a deadline on our opinions if you wanted them to be made like that? The community was encouraged to take its time in deciding the fate of these pokemon/moves.
"Sorry, but it's too late to re-ban things now even though the process of them getting unbanned was dubious at best. You now have to live with the decision that an overwhelming majority of the community is speaking out against and there is no chance for you to change your mind even though that was the entire point of a test."
I knew making these vote threads would revitalize Policy Review :)
While I do appreciate the discussion, please, no personal attacks. This vote isn't "final" in the sense that if Wobbuffet is declared Uber it will never ever ever be allowed in D/P OU again... it's simply a way to get these issues out of the way "for now." If someone writes up another proposal for a test/vote later on that is accepted, this decision could be overturned. Remember that there are many permutations of allowed Pokemon in OU... if we do something, say for example allowing Lati@s, it could very well be the case that Wobbuffet is allowed back to balance it.
I guess what I'm trying to say is nothing in Pokemon is permanent. Keep the discussion civil, fellas.
While I do appreciate the discussion, please, no personal attacks. This vote isn't "final" in the sense that if Wobbuffet is declared Uber it will never ever ever be allowed in D/P OU again... it's simply a way to get these issues out of the way "for now." If someone writes up another proposal for a test/vote later on that is accepted, this decision could be overturned. Remember that there are many permutations of allowed Pokemon in OU... if we do something, say for example allowing Lati@s, it could very well be the case that Wobbuffet is allowed back to balance it.
I guess what I'm trying to say is nothing in Pokemon is permanent. Keep the discussion civil, fellas.
This seems a rather important issue, and I'm afraid I'm just going to go with the unpopular side, the one I support: Wobbuffet is NOT UBER.
This is a difficult argument, naturally, but upon viewing it, it becomes simpler. For one, I'd like to cite the Shoddy battle statistics, which don't show overcentralization (Both not being the most used by and by not reducing the viable OU poke count). As pure facts, these are what I'd say "the most important", not theorymon. However, not the quotations, these are only a supporting pillar of the talk about Wobbs, not the crux of the argument.
Wobbuffet is a pokemon hated by many battlers, simply because he ruins their strategy and sets up his own. But when you think about it, isn't that the entire point of all pokemon? You are going to have to stop them in their tracks and get your own momentum going. Wobbuffet just has the ability to stop momentum faster than most other pokemon in the game, and give a head start to getting your own strategy off.
The main question then is, is this enough? I respond with an astounding NO, this is not enough. I've fought many Wobbuffets on Shoddy, and I shall safely say that a Wobbs needs perfect skill and teamwork to function in more advanced play. Sure some random can use Wobb to stop your Garchomp sweep, and then later on use an opening to get in a DDmence or something. But think about it, many walls do that. A Gliscor, for instance, can stop your Heracross or Chomp, Taunt your incoming pokemon and go to an Infernape and get a sweep going. Wobbuffett is NOT unique in that aspect.
What it is unique in, however, is that it prevents you from getting out (Outside of other Wobbs, Trace and the whole other small band of switch out moves). However, Weavile and Dugtrio also prevent switching out without getting hurt badly (In Weavile's case) and both of them do standalone damage. Wobbuffet by itself, is nothing. This is compounded by the fact that if you status it or damage it, it can't heal it off besides leftovers. It is relying more and more on Healbellers, Wishers, and overall safe switch ins. It eventually may turn into more of a hassle than it is worth, compared to something like Restalk Cresselia, which can fend for itself.
Naturally, I've been talking about how Wobbuffet is nothing by itself (Which is true). But what about with a well constructed team? Then it is just like any other support pokemon, it stops, it sets up, and it assists. It may be frustrating ("Urg, he trapped my Mixape after I got a kill with it!), but it must always be one step behind anything, as it can't switch in safely in this highly offensive metagame (Not only does it have to not be KOed on the switch in, it also has to guess if they will do a Stat up Move, for which Encore is made, or if they will attack. Guessing wrong is death for Wobbufett).
Wobbles also has a fairly shitty typing, having only a useful resist to Fighting (Psychic resist is no good!) and weaknesses to Dark, Bug and Ghost, highly used types in the metagame. It is also predictable, with the removal of Event moves from Shoddy, there isn't much it's going to do that you don't know. It's not a Lucario who can pull so many tricks it's uncounterable. No, Wobbufett is also uncounterable (Due to the "You can't switch in stuff") but at least you know what it's going to do.
Summarized, Wobb is overexaggerated, and everyone should learn the mindgames to deal with it.
-Light
This is a difficult argument, naturally, but upon viewing it, it becomes simpler. For one, I'd like to cite the Shoddy battle statistics, which don't show overcentralization (Both not being the most used by and by not reducing the viable OU poke count). As pure facts, these are what I'd say "the most important", not theorymon. However, not the quotations, these are only a supporting pillar of the talk about Wobbs, not the crux of the argument.
Wobbuffet is a pokemon hated by many battlers, simply because he ruins their strategy and sets up his own. But when you think about it, isn't that the entire point of all pokemon? You are going to have to stop them in their tracks and get your own momentum going. Wobbuffet just has the ability to stop momentum faster than most other pokemon in the game, and give a head start to getting your own strategy off.
The main question then is, is this enough? I respond with an astounding NO, this is not enough. I've fought many Wobbuffets on Shoddy, and I shall safely say that a Wobbs needs perfect skill and teamwork to function in more advanced play. Sure some random can use Wobb to stop your Garchomp sweep, and then later on use an opening to get in a DDmence or something. But think about it, many walls do that. A Gliscor, for instance, can stop your Heracross or Chomp, Taunt your incoming pokemon and go to an Infernape and get a sweep going. Wobbuffett is NOT unique in that aspect.
What it is unique in, however, is that it prevents you from getting out (Outside of other Wobbs, Trace and the whole other small band of switch out moves). However, Weavile and Dugtrio also prevent switching out without getting hurt badly (In Weavile's case) and both of them do standalone damage. Wobbuffet by itself, is nothing. This is compounded by the fact that if you status it or damage it, it can't heal it off besides leftovers. It is relying more and more on Healbellers, Wishers, and overall safe switch ins. It eventually may turn into more of a hassle than it is worth, compared to something like Restalk Cresselia, which can fend for itself.
Naturally, I've been talking about how Wobbuffet is nothing by itself (Which is true). But what about with a well constructed team? Then it is just like any other support pokemon, it stops, it sets up, and it assists. It may be frustrating ("Urg, he trapped my Mixape after I got a kill with it!), but it must always be one step behind anything, as it can't switch in safely in this highly offensive metagame (Not only does it have to not be KOed on the switch in, it also has to guess if they will do a Stat up Move, for which Encore is made, or if they will attack. Guessing wrong is death for Wobbufett).
Wobbles also has a fairly shitty typing, having only a useful resist to Fighting (Psychic resist is no good!) and weaknesses to Dark, Bug and Ghost, highly used types in the metagame. It is also predictable, with the removal of Event moves from Shoddy, there isn't much it's going to do that you don't know. It's not a Lucario who can pull so many tricks it's uncounterable. No, Wobbufett is also uncounterable (Due to the "You can't switch in stuff") but at least you know what it's going to do.
Summarized, Wobb is overexaggerated, and everyone should learn the mindgames to deal with it.
-Light
Note my mention about statistics - especially about overcentralization, a definition that quite possibly be completely meaningless. I'm not even sure why you even consider our arguments "theorymon" (or at least imply it is) because I'm sure our experiences while we were playing with or against wobbuffet is far from "theorymon". I'm not even sure why you say "not overcentralizing "even matters to start with since that's not, and should not be the only criterion on something is uber or not.
The thing with Wobbuffet is that it's the "one shot wonder" - it does this effortlessly. The point is that it gets the "entire point of all pokemon" done just by switching in, and using Encore. It doesn't have the ability to stop momentum faster - it stops momentum, period.
This is why Wobbuffet is considered "broken" - becuase it is done so easily.
I'm not sure why skill level is even considered at all - in a competitive metagame, we only need to consider what it can do period, not the "skill level needed to do something", since we assume that eventually every player gets to the skill to abuse such thing.
If this is the case "why bother carrying walls" for specialized purposes when Wobbuffet can be the big general blob that can set up? Oh wait, people already do that. Is there one wall that can set up ANY pokemon? Just becuase what it can do to ONE pokemon isn't unique, that doesn't make the fact that it can do to a good chunk of Pokemon not broken.
See the posts above that refute the "Dugtrio and Magnezone do the same thing" argument nonsense. See why this argument doesn't hold ground.
Except, Pokemon is not a series of 1 vs 1 battles. You do realize this right? Pokemon is about 6 vs 6 TEAM work...?
Same goes for <insert Pokemon here without healing move". What's your point?
Hey wait, isn't that most Pokemon? Switching in safely is the concept of counters and prediction and revenge killing, you do realize this right?
So far you haven't shown us any reason why Wobbuffet specifically needs MORE support than any other Pokemon... And I have a feeling that you're completely disregarding the fact that it only needs to do it's job once or twice at most.
Except Cresselia isn't doing anything and is going to have a really hard time setting up other Pokemon unless you predict.
That's the thing. Wobbuffet takes this prediction out of the game and lowers the skill threshold at this point.
"Guessing" wrong is the death of MANY pokemon. Oh, and if you, the opponent Guess the wobbuffet user wrong, it means death for you. Don't assume it isn't a guessing game for the other player. This is one big reason people want this thing gone.
And don't say oh but prediction is glorified guessing, I'll let you figure out why "prediction" is not glorified guessing - I'm more than confident that you'll be able to tell the difference.
I agree but it's not like Wobbuffet is going to be used at a wall.
Dark, Bug and Ghost are highly used types? Not more than Steel, Ground, Fighting, etc etc etc.
Kyogre is pretty predictable. Predictability has no merit on whether or not pokemon should be banned.
It doesn't need to? Just because it's "unpredictable" doesn't mean it's a good Pokemon - see Garchomp.
Fixed
In the end, other than the "statistics argument", you gave us nothing more than... theorymon. You fail to emphasize why Wobbuffet is "easier to stop" with certain things than other Pokemon, you failed to consider that Pokemon is not a series of 1 vs 1 battles, and finally, all you did was seriously underestimate what Wobbuffet even does.
- Status