***[VOTE] The final Wobbuffet "discussion" thread***

It looks those who are saying Wobbuffet is not Uber are quoting the statistics. 'The statistics say it's not overcentralizing.' or 'The statistics say it's not too powerful.'

Let me ask you this:

Why should the statistics matter?

There is one thing in our community that shapes everything we do (at least it should): our philosophy. Would it not be more important to ban something because it conflicts with our philosophy than because the statistics say so? We should be staying true to our philosophy above all else.

Of course, that leaves the big question: does Wobbuffet conflict with our philosophy? I've stated several times that I think it does and here's why:

Simply put, Wobbuffet takes a lot of skill out of the game by restricting your opponent's options. Shadow Tag is a big culprit in this regard as it takes away roughly half of your opponent's options almost all of the time. The other huge problem is Encore. It's bad enough that the opponent only has 4 options (typically); Encore reduces that to a measly 1.

When this works, it leaves your opponent at your mercy. Sure, there are other strategies that can leave your opponent just as miserable, but this one is just too ridiculously easy to pull off. I may have only employed this strategy in a few battles after a four-month hiatus, but the ease at which I was able to do this just shocked me. The bad thing was that I didn't have to put a lot of thought into when I wanted to execute it.

The moral of this post is that Wobbuffet is Uber because it conflicts with our philosophy in the sense that it doesn't promote skill. The statistics don't matter in this case and shouldn't be the only factor in making these decisions.

Yagami Light said:

It is also predictable, with the removal of Event moves from Shoddy, there isn't much it's going to do that you don't know.

Click to expand...

Not that I don't agree with the rest of your post, but IIRC the current status of the event vote is to allow event moves. My guess is that if Wobbuffet stays, it will come with Tickle too.

CardsOfTheHeart said:

stuff about philosophy

Click to expand...

I disagree. On one hand, "our" philosophy cannot be quantified because people have differing opinions. I don't agree with you that "reducing options" reduces skill involved - on that card you could say that Umbreon doesn't take skill to use because Mean Look can stop the opponent from switching, therefore reducing their options in battle. Perhaps you know what you are saying and simply can't put it in words correctly, because the way you worded that argument wasn't very convincing.

But I do agree that statistics are not the final say. AA was talking about "codes of honor" among competitive players - players who refused to use Wobbuffet because they believed it was uber. Anomalies like this throw a wrench in drawing conclusions from statistics. If we want to objectively define things, we will need dedication from our players and a better way of using data. Having control of our own server to run tests would help with this, since we can run secondary ladders and reap the benefits of having a large community. Speaking of large community, I cannot tell you how much I disagree with the idea of "The Policy Review"... I don't remember approving the idea, but if I did, fuck me in the ass. A lot of the people assigned to this forum are completely apathetic about the metagame, myself included. If we are to run statistical analysis again, decisions will have heavily moderated public debate and encourage people to test the limits of the secondary ladder metagame.

In fact, because of the arguments being presented, I'm seriously debating calling off the voting until we establish secondary ladders for Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S to collect data from.

opened to the public.

If my count is correct:

Uber/Banned - 33
Not uber/allowed - 4

Ive used Wobb on plenty of my teams, and what he does to the game is ridiculous. I have logs of me switching into a Bronzong SRing and just pp stalled him. So basically if the pokemon is slower than Wobb (I personally run one just too outspeed no speed Bliss) you basically have either a free set up or KO on your hands. He just breaks the game by preventing one of the most neccesary moves in the game: switching. You can't always get a ko if you mispredict, but can guarantee a free set up turn for one of your pokemon. Just the fact he does this to the metagame, I'm going to have to say UBER.

I vote for Wobbuffet to be moved to the Uber tier. It doesn't promote skill due to the fact that the opponents options are completely removed. Wobbuffet switches in on a slower wall or choiced Pokémon and they are instantly removed from the game with a few simple (skill-less) moves. I feel this is the biggest point, while other large areas of discussion have been discussed by IPL and the others partaking in the Policy Review.

EDIT: Just as a precaution to ensure my vote is counted, I have in fact used Wobbuffet. Not only can it be used on a Stall team or a bog standard team to soften up the opponent for a sweep, it can be used in conjunction with Smeargle to create a baton pass combination that is nearly unstoppable when done correctly, which really isn't too hard to do. And yes, I've used all three styles on Shoddy with success, along with having trouble against Wobbuffet, indicating that it really is too much.

I vote uber for the reasons already stated. It completely removes the element of skill from the game, disrupting the game to the point where Wobbuffet user is in complete control. Impossible to do ANYTHING if it comes in on you, and allows you to break walls or set up sweepers effortlessly.

I vote uber since it really brings a match to a complete stop. Most of the things I would say have been said already so there is no point in repeating them. Basically, the Wobbuffet user is in complete control of the match and will always guarantee at least one KO.

Voting uber, like multiple people have said before. It really just halts the game to a point. Limiting the opponent to a choice, being to attack or use some non-damaging attack which in the end still leaves the opponent in a lose-lose situation.

As well, after reading TAY's log which simply demonstrates how Wobbuffet just stops the game, and just simply winning without doing any necessary predictions.

Ok now I am ready to post my reasons.

After seeing TAY's log in the previous discussion thread I was convinced that Wobbuffet was uber. In the battle TAY made around 3 huge blunders. TAY however still won. This was not because his opponent was bad, but rather because Wobbuffet allowed TAY to easily recover from his mistakes instead of being punished for them. TAY himself even stated that he used minimal prediction in that battle, and it was all because he had Wobbuffet on his team.

Of course, trusting one log is not enough so I took the liberty of making a similar team. Setting up my pokemon became increadibly easy and often led to me winning games.

Wobbuffet is an amazing pokemon. Using him allows you to easily recover even after you make a huge mistake. This should not be the case. Wobbuffet also cuts the amount of prediction you have to use to win a battle. Wobbuffet gives you a near 100% chance of eliminating any pokemon of your choosing on the opponents team and your opponent cannot do anything about it.

This is why I cast my vote for Wobbuffet being uber

So what the hell AM I trying to say? It's hard to believe with the thought I put into each of my posts in these topics that I chose the wrong words...

Ahem!

What I'm trying to say is that Wobbuffet oversimplifies the game far too easily. Using Wobbuffet in battle is mostly mechanical in that the majority of opponents are taken care of in a similar manner. You don't have to put much thought, if any, into what you do because you're doing the same thing in most cases. That's not promoting skill, in my opinion.

im going to have to say wobb is uber . it's not only because he is almost guaranteed at least one kill per game, it's because no matter what happens, wobb will immediately bring the momentum of the game to a stop. and also, as chaos has noted, it seems likely that wobbuffet will be allowed to get tickle, effectively neutering any wall slower than it with a non damaging move.
ive also faced ipl on shoddy once. i lost horribly, facing my first 6-0 with my new team. it was all because of the wobbuffet. even though i had plenty of "counters", i had no say in when i could bring them in.
i had to sacrifice two or three of my guys (because they had no non damaging moves ) to bring in a revenge killer only to watch it switch out, receive wish support, and come back in perfectly healthy.
also, if it does get tickle, it will be completely broken. to have the ability to get a definite kill against anything slower than you with a non damaging move is inherently broken. nothing else in the game can get that kind of definite kill. everything else has some small amount of luck in it, but ticklewobb has no luck, no skill, only an outcome.
so i guess im saying uber.

I vote Wobb for uber. The ability to render a counter to a certain Poke absolutely useless (the other choice is letting it die <_<) allows the Poke to come in and set up, and in such a metagame where the offensive firepower is off the roof, this is invaluable.

It minimizes skill level. It should not be in the OU metagame.

Time for me to cast a vote. Wobbuffet is Uber. I am not that great a battler. Sure, I can set up something with prediction, but with Wobbuffet, I don't even have to predict at all to set up whatever I want. When I started using it, I was shocked at how easy it was for me to run over teams. If my luck weren't so terrible, I'd have run over many more. TAY's log is just further evidence of this.

Just to make sure this vote is counted. Yes, I have used it. While not removing all skill from the game, it basically brings your opponent to a halt more easily than anything else. By restricting the opponent's options, it does not promote skill. Whenever I use Wobbuffet, it surprises me just how easy it is to halt everything my opponent was planning to do and immediately turn the game in my favor.

I feel sort of awkward posting here, considering I've had this account for months and have never once posted on it, but I feel that it's necessary I get my view out on the argument over statistics that almost all those arguing to keep Wobb in OU are using to back themselves up.

Honestly, having tried Wobbuffet out, it's simply a bother to make a team out of it, and it completely removes the fun from the game when you use it and get a cheap, boring victory out of it, because you got a free turn to set up your lategame sweeper. Sure, good prediction can buy any well-experienced player a free turn to set up, but the fact that your opponent absolutely knows it's coming, and you don't have to use any bit of good prediction or skill to set it up... it just saps the fun out of what you're doing. Why are you playing if you're just going to click and get a boring win? Last I checked, the game was about having fun, not getting cheap wins. This is the reason statistics show Wobbuffet dropping in usage. It is simply no fun to use. Most talented battlers will enjoy themselves much more netting a win with a team that takes prediction and skill to use.

I vote Wobbuffet to Ubers. I'm not going to reiterate what most people have already spit up, because it's pointless to do such, but I'm going to also add in that I believe it should go back to ubers for the sheer fact that it removes the fun factor of the game.

Wobbuffet should be Uber.

I have used Wobbuffet many times on many teams in the last few weeks, and I can say that I do not like how easy it makes setting up (well, I do, but I don't it in the spirit of competitive battling). It makes setting up ridiculously easy, and often times allows you to do so risk-free in the face of a pokemon that would normally counter your stat-upper. So while I don't think it eliminates all skill, it does eliminate too much to make the game reasonable.

I vote Wobbuffet to Ubers. As many people stated. It often guarantees 1 Pokemon down and takes the fun out of the game. Once it's in nothing can switch in or out which creates a situation where it has absolutely no counter.

Even super effective attacks can't OHKO it provided they have no STAB or high Base Power but even it can take it. With Wish support it can be used over again. Making it pretty hard to take down.

It offers no skill and even not so experienced players can get a hang of it. It helps them set up things like SD Lucario, who is proven to be one of the most threatening sweepers in the game.

Uber because as many others have already stated it removes skill from the game and can almost guarantee 1 or 2 kills every battle.

The fact that Wobbuffet has only one Pokemon that is completely immune to it (Spiritomb), makes it incredibly hard to counter. Even though Spiritombs are immune to Wobbuffet, the likely hood of them killing a Wobbuffet is fairly slim. Outside of Spiritomb, Wobbuffet can take down any Pokemon single-handedly. So the fact is, because Wobbuffet has no surefire way to counter it, it will be dubbed an uber.

Uber, it really allows one player to completely choose his fights, and basically scores a guaranteed free kill. Encore on a harmless move such as stealth rock, thunder wave, or even a setup move to let something like Lucario or Chomp to come in and grab a free SD, which will generally end up netting a kill or two at least.

Uber

Wobbuffet is one of the only Pokemon to counter both walls and sweepers effectively. Also trapping all Pokemon in the game lacking Shadow Tag (an ability only possessed by Wobbuffet itself) is just too much.

Wobby is Uber. I cannot even begin to say how many times I have used Jolly-Wobby to take out Zong and Bliss for me, and how it turns pokes into setup fodder for a BD pass to Aero. Its game over every time, and the ease with which Wobby Set-ups are accomplished definitely point to Uber, although I will sorely miss abusing it.

my vote for wobbuffet is it should be UBER. its very simple actually its shadow tag stops switching and switching is a very important part of the game. it can bascially kill anything way to easy by switching in for a revenge kill on a choice locked pokemon or encoring and counter/mirror coating a wall.also wobbuffet can just encore non attacking moves and make you struggle to death, or it can switch to dugtrio for the kill.sure it might only be able to kill one of your pokemon but it can usally choose which one it wants to.it can take out a very dangerous sweeper you have or that wall you need to stop a sweep.also it is great for setup pokemon to get free switch ins after a encore of a status move and a safeguard.

I am voting Wob as Uber. Not just because he prevents switching, but because of the whole package of what wobb is. Wobb is a machined perfectly designed to do what he does best-- totally screw with the game of pokemon. This isn't dugtrio, who tries to trap with his pathetic defenses, outspeed and kill with a still pathetic base 80ATK stat. This isn't Magnezone who can only trap steels anyway and is ultimately not good for anything but trapping and killing 1 pokemon. Wobb is Uber because he can screw over almost any standard pokemon and because he can do it to almost any team, and also because of both his ability to trap and kill threats but the dual threat of generating free turns (which are a true sin in pokemon).

No matter what numbers you put up, the task of tiering is at its final stage, SUBJECTIVE. At some point you got to look at the decision and actually decide it based on judgement. Meaning it comes down to human decision. If the community says Wobb is Uber, he is Uber. That's that.

If you want to doubt the legitimacy of a vote, I'll say this-- Voting is flawed from the perspective of a statistician. It is not perfect. Democracy is the crappiest form of governing-- except for every other form. Voting ain't perfect but a better way does not exist. Yes, trying to screw around with numbers (who at the end of the day have no opinion) is a crappier method. The best thing you can do is show the numbers to the people, educate them, and trust they make a good decision.

I vote Not Uber because of most of the reasons other people have said better than I can say it.

Also, I would like to state a number that no one has considered yet, his rank in unweighted vs weighted. Since weighted scores give bias to pokemon who win, a broken pokemon should have a score that is high in comparison to its unweighted. In April Wobby had a 45 Unweighted and a 43 Weighted. That kind of gap suggests that people who play with wobbuffet are not winning much more battles in general than people who don't use him.

Yes wobbuffet is annoying, but did his introduction to Shoddy rock the metagame? I think not. Stall has become more popular, but Wobby is hardly a staple to stall teams. Are some strategies harder to pull off? Yes. Is wobbuffet annoying and a complete momentum stopper? Sure. Does he win games considerably more than other pokemon, no. Thus my vote.

My two cents.