Deoxys-E's stats outside of his speed are sub-par. He gets walled fairly easily by any of the standard walls (i.e. Cresselia, Bronzong), and has relatively low HP. This makes switching to Deoxys-E very difficult. Of course the argument of him being a revenge killer will kick in, but if he gets into the field unintentionally (i.e. Roar coupled with Spikes), he's pretty much useless and any good player can prepare for him. A lot of teams carry Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Stealth Rock and Roar/Whirlwind, which to me is the best counter for Deoxys-E. Thereby dubbing him OU.
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***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***
- Thread starter imperfectluck
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I believe Deoxys-E should be OU. He's not as overpowering as other OU pokes, and in my battles agaisnt him and with him he has not been the deciding factor in the games i have played. With the popularity of dark moves and Tyranitar, its not like he's impossible to counter. I do not feel the urge to have a specific counter on my team for Deoxys-E and therefore i do not feel as if it is overcentralizing.
Uber
I understand the arguments about his offensive power, but I hate the defensive power he also packs. With pretty impressive defenses for a pokemon with that much speed, cosmic power + taunt really scares me. Mixed with a reliable recovery move, and a reliable attacking move in seismic toss or night shade, he can set up steadily and then start slowly killing everything he fights. Even ghosts/normals who are immune to his only attack he runs, respectively, he can usually set up and recover any damage. Taunting also can ruin any chance to phaze/status him. When he can PP stall other threats with pressure while recovering and boosting defensive power, it's just frustrating.
With a pokemon who has really diverse and powerful attacking options, mixed with incredibly defensive potential, with the highest speed of any non-choice, non-boosted pokemon, he just seems better somewhere else.
I understand the arguments about his offensive power, but I hate the defensive power he also packs. With pretty impressive defenses for a pokemon with that much speed, cosmic power + taunt really scares me. Mixed with a reliable recovery move, and a reliable attacking move in seismic toss or night shade, he can set up steadily and then start slowly killing everything he fights. Even ghosts/normals who are immune to his only attack he runs, respectively, he can usually set up and recover any damage. Taunting also can ruin any chance to phaze/status him. When he can PP stall other threats with pressure while recovering and boosting defensive power, it's just frustrating.
With a pokemon who has really diverse and powerful attacking options, mixed with incredibly defensive potential, with the highest speed of any non-choice, non-boosted pokemon, he just seems better somewhere else.
While being dangerous if used in the right situation, overall its not that threatening. It has average stats outside speed and thunder wave makes it almost useless. Also its fragile and its unable to switch in to almost anything safely. Lastly almost any priority move can usually take it down which is something I think every team should have anyways. So my vote is OU.
Deoxys - S has respectable, but not the best offenses, compared to other sweepers. Other sweepers with great attacking coverage and much more formidable attack stats can be neutralized by bulky Pokemon, ie; In the same vein of mixed sweeping, Infernape by Cresselia. While not entirely the same case, Deoxys - S's lesser attacking stats are simply not high enough to get past most Cresselias, Bronzongs, and Spiritombs, with much emphasis on the last one. Sacrificing a move from the common Superpower / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Psychic. Sacrificing a move for something like HP Fire or Shadow Ball can lead to being helpless against things like Heatran.
The thing that separates Deoxys from other sweepers is its speed. Most fast Pokemon have neither the versatility and type coverage nor offensive stats on both ends of the spectrum. Speed doesn't matter to most defensive Pokemon. This does, however, make it harder for offensive teams to kill Deoxys, which I believe is the main argument for moving Deoxys to Uber.
Well, what of it? If Deoxys is completely counterable by a group of Pokemon, but those Pokemon cannot be integrated into a certain playing style, then perhaps it's not a good idea to use the style anymore. A team that relies on solely on stalling and using Poison / Stealth Rock / Spikes / Weather will probably not fare very well against a Breloom, who absorbs status, takes minor damage from Stealth Rock, can injure or incacipate common pseudo - hazers, Spore its most threatening counter, and can basically set up a Substitute and attack from behind it. Or of a Baton Pass chain. Ninjask will easily set up on it behind a Substitute and Baton Pass its boosts when a threat comes in or before the opponent begins to build up its defense.
As for the actual style of play, not the theme a team is based on, while Deoxys may be able to come in on a KO and completely stop a sweep, perhaps a 6 Swords Dance Garchomp, that should not be relevant. Mamoswine's Ice Shard will do the same thing. Deoxys - S stops sweeps, yes, but so do walls like Skarmory and Cresselia. It's usually pretty much a given that you should dispose of your opponent's walls before attempting a [late-game] sweep, and Deoxys - S is similar in this regard.
Therefore I believe Deoxys - S should remain in OU.
The thing that separates Deoxys from other sweepers is its speed. Most fast Pokemon have neither the versatility and type coverage nor offensive stats on both ends of the spectrum. Speed doesn't matter to most defensive Pokemon. This does, however, make it harder for offensive teams to kill Deoxys, which I believe is the main argument for moving Deoxys to Uber.
Well, what of it? If Deoxys is completely counterable by a group of Pokemon, but those Pokemon cannot be integrated into a certain playing style, then perhaps it's not a good idea to use the style anymore. A team that relies on solely on stalling and using Poison / Stealth Rock / Spikes / Weather will probably not fare very well against a Breloom, who absorbs status, takes minor damage from Stealth Rock, can injure or incacipate common pseudo - hazers, Spore its most threatening counter, and can basically set up a Substitute and attack from behind it. Or of a Baton Pass chain. Ninjask will easily set up on it behind a Substitute and Baton Pass its boosts when a threat comes in or before the opponent begins to build up its defense.
As for the actual style of play, not the theme a team is based on, while Deoxys may be able to come in on a KO and completely stop a sweep, perhaps a 6 Swords Dance Garchomp, that should not be relevant. Mamoswine's Ice Shard will do the same thing. Deoxys - S stops sweeps, yes, but so do walls like Skarmory and Cresselia. It's usually pretty much a given that you should dispose of your opponent's walls before attempting a [late-game] sweep, and Deoxys - S is similar in this regard.
Therefore I believe Deoxys - S should remain in OU.
deoxys-speed-first of all it outspeeds everything without a choice scarf and its movepool is way too big. it can run anything from a mix attacker with superpower,boltbeam,with shadow ball/psychic/psycho boost. to a cosmic power stall set with recover,night shade, and taunt. it also has spikes and pressure.it can run throught offensive teams and stall out stall teams.
My vote is UBER
My vote is UBER
When used correctly, Deo-E is unstoppable. If you can weaken all of your opponents pokes reasonably, it can tear through them at the end game. Fortunately, this is relatively difficult to accomplish without a great deal of skill, so I believe that, even with its Bolt/Beam/STAB/SBall or Fighting move movesets, it should Not be uber.
Kietharr said:
But isn't that speed the thing that really makes Deoxys-S so much more powerful than other pokemon that attempt to do the same thing? Deoxys-S naturally outspeeds everything in OU, barring a select few Choice Scarf pokemon (basically Timid Scarf Gengar). And Deoxys-S does this holding a Life Orb, which gives it the equivilant of 375 SpA (neutral nature). And not only this, but Deoxys-S can switch attacks, and hits 72% (34/47, if I counted correctly) of OU for at least 2x damage. If you add in Shadow Ball over Psychic, it hits 76% of OU for at least 2x damage.
The speed is one of the main reason's Deoxys-S is broken (opinon).
Your post sounds like the epitomy of theorymon. Saying the moves in its movepool isn't going to convince anyone of anything. The whole point of having this thread was so that people WOULDN'T use theorymon.
I'm pretty sure that's Kietharr's point. The point was that Deoxys-S is a lot more vunerable to status effects than many other pokemon. If it gets Thunder Waved, it loses all that speed, and then it's completely dead weight on the team, meaning that all it has is its speed. However, most other pokemon in OU can at least operate semi-normally if they get paralyzed.
Also, the problem is that the other 28% or 24% of OU that don't get hit super-effectively really have no problem with DX-S. Bronzong, Metagross, Jirachi, Forretress and Scizor have already been touched upon.
However, there are several that have not been touched upon. For example, DX-S is in a lot of trouble if Electivire comes in on its Thunderbolt. It can't be hit super-effectively, and can hit on Deoxys-S's very low defense stat (because of the -Def nature from Hasty), and puts the opponent's team in a lot of danger. If Kingdra comes in and sets up Rain Dance against DX-S, it's in a lot of trouble since it can't hit super-effectively. Those are ones that can't get hit super-effectively at all by DX-S. Swampert also does a great job since DX-S rarely carries Grass Knot.
Even things that can get hit super-effectively can do pretty good against it whether or not it has Shadow Ball. Cress has already been touched upon from this group.
However, the ones that haven't been touched upon deserve some mentioning now. Gallade is a great counter, and even if he's hit by Shadow Ball, Gallade can be EVed to make Shadow Ball a 3HKO, and it can threaten Gallade with Shadow Sneak, or just plain Swords Dance up in a non-Taunter's face. Deoxys-S won't be enjoying a Thunder Wave or Hypnosis from Gallade either. Togekiss with his great special defense can be EVed to make Ice Beam/Thunderbolt a 3HKO as well, and can Thunder Wave/Air Slash it to death. Lastly, Yanmega is one of the true revenge-killers of DX-S.
I agree that it does hit quite a humongous amount of OU super-effectively, but unfortunately, it does so with mostly unSTAB moves. :(
Having played hundreds of Wi-Fi battles since the initial advent of Speed form moving to OU, I can safely say that I have never once been swept by one, and in roughly 95% of my battles, I have used no more than two "walls".
Despite being fast as hell, the fact that it can't break a wall it doesn't hit SE means it's not going to hurt most walls unless it's packing specific moves, such as grass knot for Swampert, and with the fact that it's going to get worn down low enough by life orb after firing off random attacks that can be predictably countered, a high priority move easily comes in and KOs.
Since Shadow Ball seems to be a lost cause apparently, Gallade has always been able to safely switch into Deoxys and scare it off immediately for me. If Deoxys has Superpowered the switch, then Shadow Sneak will easily KO with the defense drop and LO damage.
Basically, it can only rip your team apart if you've let your team get ripped apart to the point where anything that's faster or has set up to high priority sweep your team (Lucario, anyone?) will sweep you anyway, so it doesn't actually contribute to how you're playing Deoxys, since any Pokemon you choose to keep hidden for that long means you're playing the whole game with only five Pokemon anyway until you decide you've opened up the floodgates for a specific sweep.
The only set I can think of that could make Deoxys-E uber is possibly the cosmic power set, which I have tested extensively on shoddy, actually. The only problem with it being that you have to choose between being walled buy Ghosts or Normals, both of which are somewhat common, although you can taunt the most common normal pokemon, blissey, and essentially buy yourself a free switch.
Also, I think it's notable to say that I've always seen the objective of using Scarfed Pokemon as being in order to net a surprise KO in general when your opponent expects to outspeed and OHKO you [Of course, this doesn't work as well on Pokemon such as Heatran, Garchomp, and Heracross, who carry Scarfs incredibly commonly], and possibly to sweep late game if possible.
For all the reasons I have explained above, I believe Deoxys-E should remain OU.
Despite being fast as hell, the fact that it can't break a wall it doesn't hit SE means it's not going to hurt most walls unless it's packing specific moves, such as grass knot for Swampert, and with the fact that it's going to get worn down low enough by life orb after firing off random attacks that can be predictably countered, a high priority move easily comes in and KOs.
Since Shadow Ball seems to be a lost cause apparently, Gallade has always been able to safely switch into Deoxys and scare it off immediately for me. If Deoxys has Superpowered the switch, then Shadow Sneak will easily KO with the defense drop and LO damage.
Basically, it can only rip your team apart if you've let your team get ripped apart to the point where anything that's faster or has set up to high priority sweep your team (Lucario, anyone?) will sweep you anyway, so it doesn't actually contribute to how you're playing Deoxys, since any Pokemon you choose to keep hidden for that long means you're playing the whole game with only five Pokemon anyway until you decide you've opened up the floodgates for a specific sweep.
The only set I can think of that could make Deoxys-E uber is possibly the cosmic power set, which I have tested extensively on shoddy, actually. The only problem with it being that you have to choose between being walled buy Ghosts or Normals, both of which are somewhat common, although you can taunt the most common normal pokemon, blissey, and essentially buy yourself a free switch.
Also, I think it's notable to say that I've always seen the objective of using Scarfed Pokemon as being in order to net a surprise KO in general when your opponent expects to outspeed and OHKO you [Of course, this doesn't work as well on Pokemon such as Heatran, Garchomp, and Heracross, who carry Scarfs incredibly commonly], and possibly to sweep late game if possible.
For all the reasons I have explained above, I believe Deoxys-E should remain OU.
I don't think my vote counts because I believe I saw a 3 month rule somewhere, but I want to weigh in anyway (I won't bold my vote). EDIT: yep, its in the announcement right on top of the page saying I can't vote. I knew it was somewhere painfully obvious and in front of my face, but I won't bold my vote and just give you my thoughts.
Some of the most difficult pokemon to counter are mixed attackers. True counters to these mix attackers are few and far in between. MixMence abuses the combination of the special attacking Dragon/Fire combination being virtually unresisted (and a 140 BP move), but then adds Brick Break that can stop the most common special walls that try to safely swap into one of those moves. Tyranitar running Crunch/Ice Beam/Stone Edge/(Dragon Dance/Fire Blast/Thunder Bolt/HP:Grass/Whatever move you need to hit certain walls as hard as possible) is running 3 of the most useful types of moves, 2 of them with STAB, with the purpose of bringing down common walls and counters. This set isn't run very often unfortunately because he almost can muscle through his counters with CB alone, but it does exist with a purpose to drag down common counters and walls. Gengar, Lucario, Garchomp, Infernape also can run mixed sets or sets that run so massively powerful (Swords Dance Garchomp) that some counter is going to go down if you let it get set up. Where do all these pokemon lie in the statistics? They all lie in the top 15 of usage. They have that ability to break teams down at their foundations because of how powerful and unpredictable they can be (some with great mixed attacking abilities, some with sheer power of Swords Dance or Dragon Dance). Deo-E doesn't quite have that sheer power or signature move that any of these guys can get. When I look at it this way I want to say he is OU.
It has the best movepool of any of these powerful offensive pokemon and can actually take them all off itself (exception to Lucario possibly with Extreme Speed) - but an argument like that would be silly ("Pokemon X is better than Y because it can kill it!!!!!"). A simple ladder team I ran was essentially Magnezone/DeoE/(Garchomp/Salamence)/garbage/garbage/garbage. I carried different walls, different offensive pokemon like Mamoswine, ran Dugtrio for a little bit for Jirachi but I didn't run across him enough and dropped him, but this simple core of 3/4 executed exactly what I wanted to do. Break down any teams carrying Bronzong/Jirachi/Metagross/Cresselia then DeoE was already forcing prediction games so the opponent had to outguess my move and get someone in safely that can't be OHKO'd after taking an attack. He has that wall breaking ability that make those top 15 pokemon so great. The statistics don't show up there though. I added a simple pokemon like Magnezone to my team. The most common counter to DeoE was Bronzong by a mile - and usage statistics show this - and you could even argue Bronzong's jump from up another slot on the usage statistics this month was because of DeoE being available to OU as deemed by Smogon. I'm still in the process of testing this idea, but so far the results have been great for me. Magnezone traps Bronzong (haven't run across a Shed Shell one yet) to eliminate him quietly and proceed to ruin teams with DeoE or Salamence/Garchomp. I ran a bulky Salamence with Dragon Dance/Roost/Dragon Claw/Earthquake (Adamant EV'd 252 HP, 150/160ish defense, and the 80/90is speed) and succesfully worked over teams without their precious steel type around and DeoE softening them over. I also ran Garchomp with the Magnezone/Deo and his Scarf set worked wonders with freedom to Outrage without worries of opposing steel counters, I ran the YacheChomp, Sub/SDance/DClaw/Equake with Salac attached, and just mowed teams with the appropriate walls weakened or eliminated by Magnezone and DeoE (or vice versa - Garchomp broke down a few pokemon even more so and then let DeoE pick up the scraps). DeoE's speed and movepool allow him to just annihilate teams that aren't ready. This argument could be said for several pokemon though. This isn't exactly new information (When Counter X is down Pokemon Y sweeps!). But with just how EASY this core can accomplish that feat is dumb. No one else can use such a huge movepool and speed to compliment these guys and continue to cause people this much trouble. The team is obviously beatable and not game breaking or anything, but it just seems too simple of a core to be fair - and only DeoE truly compliments it fully I believe (and I am still running tests with this simple core. obviously magnezone+garchomp isn't new so you can eliminate steels and let him outrage freely, but tack on the speed and variety of deoE with theseguys and it gets extremly hard to beat for the average battlers - good battlers it might not be a problem - but my shoddy ranking let me play some pretty average battlers as i rose through it and this was just trouble brewing for them).
Im getting lost in my thoughts here, but DeoE is almost unfair because of his immense movepool and the speed advantage he can get on any pokemon. A lot of the top 15 used pokemon have few counters, and once they are taken out (or just not present in the first place!) then they will mow teams down. I think DeoE fits along nicely with these top 15 - his counters are few and he can sweep with the proper setups applied. Though, in my opinion, he is one step above all these guys and should still be uber. The vote in this post shows how close he is to the line in the sand. That OU/Uber line in the sand is already been stepped on and kicked around and is blurry to see where it was originally and how we should redraw it, and DeoE just makes it worse than it is, but I believe he should stay Uber.
Some of the most difficult pokemon to counter are mixed attackers. True counters to these mix attackers are few and far in between. MixMence abuses the combination of the special attacking Dragon/Fire combination being virtually unresisted (and a 140 BP move), but then adds Brick Break that can stop the most common special walls that try to safely swap into one of those moves. Tyranitar running Crunch/Ice Beam/Stone Edge/(Dragon Dance/Fire Blast/Thunder Bolt/HP:Grass/Whatever move you need to hit certain walls as hard as possible) is running 3 of the most useful types of moves, 2 of them with STAB, with the purpose of bringing down common walls and counters. This set isn't run very often unfortunately because he almost can muscle through his counters with CB alone, but it does exist with a purpose to drag down common counters and walls. Gengar, Lucario, Garchomp, Infernape also can run mixed sets or sets that run so massively powerful (Swords Dance Garchomp) that some counter is going to go down if you let it get set up. Where do all these pokemon lie in the statistics? They all lie in the top 15 of usage. They have that ability to break teams down at their foundations because of how powerful and unpredictable they can be (some with great mixed attacking abilities, some with sheer power of Swords Dance or Dragon Dance). Deo-E doesn't quite have that sheer power or signature move that any of these guys can get. When I look at it this way I want to say he is OU.
It has the best movepool of any of these powerful offensive pokemon and can actually take them all off itself (exception to Lucario possibly with Extreme Speed) - but an argument like that would be silly ("Pokemon X is better than Y because it can kill it!!!!!"). A simple ladder team I ran was essentially Magnezone/DeoE/(Garchomp/Salamence)/garbage/garbage/garbage. I carried different walls, different offensive pokemon like Mamoswine, ran Dugtrio for a little bit for Jirachi but I didn't run across him enough and dropped him, but this simple core of 3/4 executed exactly what I wanted to do. Break down any teams carrying Bronzong/Jirachi/Metagross/Cresselia then DeoE was already forcing prediction games so the opponent had to outguess my move and get someone in safely that can't be OHKO'd after taking an attack. He has that wall breaking ability that make those top 15 pokemon so great. The statistics don't show up there though. I added a simple pokemon like Magnezone to my team. The most common counter to DeoE was Bronzong by a mile - and usage statistics show this - and you could even argue Bronzong's jump from up another slot on the usage statistics this month was because of DeoE being available to OU as deemed by Smogon. I'm still in the process of testing this idea, but so far the results have been great for me. Magnezone traps Bronzong (haven't run across a Shed Shell one yet) to eliminate him quietly and proceed to ruin teams with DeoE or Salamence/Garchomp. I ran a bulky Salamence with Dragon Dance/Roost/Dragon Claw/Earthquake (Adamant EV'd 252 HP, 150/160ish defense, and the 80/90is speed) and succesfully worked over teams without their precious steel type around and DeoE softening them over. I also ran Garchomp with the Magnezone/Deo and his Scarf set worked wonders with freedom to Outrage without worries of opposing steel counters, I ran the YacheChomp, Sub/SDance/DClaw/Equake with Salac attached, and just mowed teams with the appropriate walls weakened or eliminated by Magnezone and DeoE (or vice versa - Garchomp broke down a few pokemon even more so and then let DeoE pick up the scraps). DeoE's speed and movepool allow him to just annihilate teams that aren't ready. This argument could be said for several pokemon though. This isn't exactly new information (When Counter X is down Pokemon Y sweeps!). But with just how EASY this core can accomplish that feat is dumb. No one else can use such a huge movepool and speed to compliment these guys and continue to cause people this much trouble. The team is obviously beatable and not game breaking or anything, but it just seems too simple of a core to be fair - and only DeoE truly compliments it fully I believe (and I am still running tests with this simple core. obviously magnezone+garchomp isn't new so you can eliminate steels and let him outrage freely, but tack on the speed and variety of deoE with theseguys and it gets extremly hard to beat for the average battlers - good battlers it might not be a problem - but my shoddy ranking let me play some pretty average battlers as i rose through it and this was just trouble brewing for them).
Im getting lost in my thoughts here, but DeoE is almost unfair because of his immense movepool and the speed advantage he can get on any pokemon. A lot of the top 15 used pokemon have few counters, and once they are taken out (or just not present in the first place!) then they will mow teams down. I think DeoE fits along nicely with these top 15 - his counters are few and he can sweep with the proper setups applied. Though, in my opinion, he is one step above all these guys and should still be uber. The vote in this post shows how close he is to the line in the sand. That OU/Uber line in the sand is already been stepped on and kicked around and is blurry to see where it was originally and how we should redraw it, and DeoE just makes it worse than it is, but I believe he should stay Uber.
Scarfed pokemon are for all purposes, stuck into one move. Deoxys-S can hit insane speed while running neutral nature and an item such as life orb. He can run mixed sets fairly effectively, and has access to elemental punches and extremespeed as a strong priority move (pretty much overclasses anyone else trying to use priority) and also many special attacking options. He can hit just as hard as infernape with a much higher speed stat, and can actually be built really bulky, where infernape cannot, with average defensive scores.
He's the fastest taunter in the game, with access to a powerful defensive arsenal as well, spikes, rocks, toxic, recover, cosmic power, and can use both seismic toss and night shade to fairly decent ability.
Bronzong, spiritomb and others can only stop the offensive sets, while the defensive sets seem to outclass the slow bulky pokemon by taunting them and setting up. However, dusknoir seems to be fairly consistent in terms of a counter, and jirachi seems to do pretty well against both versions.
Still, his diverse movepool and powerful options are nothing to scoff at, and while he's nowhere near is retarded as wobuffet, he still is an incredibly strong pokemon overall.
He's the fastest taunter in the game, with access to a powerful defensive arsenal as well, spikes, rocks, toxic, recover, cosmic power, and can use both seismic toss and night shade to fairly decent ability.
Bronzong, spiritomb and others can only stop the offensive sets, while the defensive sets seem to outclass the slow bulky pokemon by taunting them and setting up. However, dusknoir seems to be fairly consistent in terms of a counter, and jirachi seems to do pretty well against both versions.
Still, his diverse movepool and powerful options are nothing to scoff at, and while he's nowhere near is retarded as wobuffet, he still is an incredibly strong pokemon overall.
Umm, no it's not. Jirachi can easily stop it through the Taunt with Serene Grace Body Slam which it commonly carries. Togekiss can do the same thing. Blissey can also easily outstall Cosmic Wall Deoxys-S since its Seismic Tosses have much more PP than Recover, it's immune to Night Shade which is often the only attacking move on the set, and its Seismic Tosses also hit through the defensive boosts. Those three are very high OUs, so there's no way that the Cosmic Wall set is too much for OU to deal with. Any Normal pokemon is basically immune to it's only attack, since it CAN'T learn Seismic Toss, and is stuck with Night Shade, and is therefore walled by that entire type.
Also, Toxic Spikes completely ruin Cosmic Wall DX-S since it has no way to get rid of status besides Resting, which lets things set up on it, and Toxic Spikes are commonly used as well.
Remember that Deoxys-E has the ability Pressure, and that Blissey will not be killing D-E anytime soon... rather, with Taunt, Blissey will be running out of PP much much sooner than Deoxys-E will be.
Toxic Spikes ruin Garchomp and anything else grounded's ability as a sweeper/tank. However, you don't see grounded Pokemon like Tyranitar, Garchomp, Vaporeon, Celebi, and such TSpikes weak Pokemon dropping in usage because of Toxic Spikes, do you?
Offensively, Deoxys-E isn't excatly a pushover, but at the same time, he is counterable.
Why is he counterable?
Because the Metagame has shifted substantially since his arrival. I actually fault him as one of the reasons of this. As mentioned many times, early DP teams used highly offensive teams with paper-thin defenses. I used Deoxy-E in the first week of its arrival and remember just tearing teams to shreds with little effort, simply because he blasted through the offensive teams of the time. Lately, he is very counterable because the metagame has quietly shifted to restrain him. For example, Porygon-Z and many other Choice Scarfers like Typhlosion have completely lost their place in the world, as a fast Ice Beam or HP Ice was always an insurance against the deadly Dragons. Not only does Deoxys-E fill this role better, but he plows through them easily also and doesn't need to think twice about it. I bet if you DID check the usage statistics, things like the same Porygon-Z and Typhlosion(once a higher BL) have fallen considerably. Therefore, people stopped thinking quick, and started thinking bulky. Steel types are all the rage to provided adequate protection against Dragons AND Deoxys, as those previous scarfers could easily revenge them not too long ago.
Deoxys-E didn't replace Scarfers!
You're right. But now scarfers carry a completely different purpose and are put on completely different things. Scarfed Tyranitar, Metagross, and Heatran are now extremely common to deal with the newfound threats of SD Lucario. Deoxys-E cannot fill that role because of Extremespeed, and the frailer scarfers as well. Choice Scarf used to be an item used to do clean revenge kills, but now its used more to fight through a threat by slapping it on a seemingly slow and bulky pokemon to get a surprise kill. Other than that, Deoxys-E simply outclasseses Revenge-Killing Scarfers.
Offensive teams aren't dead!
A few months ago, it was not uncommon to see teams of Gyarados, Salamence, Gengar, Infernape, Azelf, Weavile, Heracross, Electivire, etc with no walls and they could easily overwhelm most teams, reallying on their speed and heavy hitting to pave the way. Deoxys-E completely eliminated this. Why? Of the pokemon I just listed, all of them have been in the top 20 at one point in the Metagame, and Deoxys-E has the power and movepool to outspeed and OHKO EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. This isn't the sole argument about his uberness. Its the fact that resistence based teams like that cut up like a hot knife through butter and are no longer viable in OU. Now, the current standard teams look like:
Garchomp / Bulky Water X / Steel #1 / Choice Scarfer / Gyarados Counter / Back Up Sweeper...
Which translates to Garchomp / Vaporeon / Bronzong / Tyranitar / Celebi / Lucario... sound familiar???
Not that originality is all important in pokemon, but the fact that a good majority of teams nowadays conform to similar models with excessively bulky sweepers and tanks is a testament to Deoxys-E's impact on the metagame.
Deoxys-E can't sweep better than Garchomp!
No, but the damn thing has so many other move options as well. Not only does he have the ability to completely demolish offensive teams, but he can run defensive sets decently, lay spikes and stealth rock, stall, tank, Calm Mind, and even run the same Counter Star set as Starmie, but with even higher stats, making that obselete. When you look at other OUs such as Garchomp and Lucario that appear to be "uncounterable" remember that their versatility is almost 100% offensive, and they do not have the movepools to fulfill various roles on a team. Deoxys-E is like a wildcard or Joker in a deck of cards; you can make him anything you want. This also happens to be the argument about why various ubers such as Mew and Darkrai remain in ubers. It's not always about having "counters," but about what a pokemon can bring to the table to affect the game.
In Conclusion, Deoxys-E should be made Uber because he has impacted the metagame enough and was a huge damper on the diversity of STYLES of pokemon play. Even teams revolving around Sweeper A or B opening up to sweep, many pokemon are not granted the speed necessary to even think about surpassing Deoxys-E after you put in your hard work.
Why is he counterable?
Because the Metagame has shifted substantially since his arrival. I actually fault him as one of the reasons of this. As mentioned many times, early DP teams used highly offensive teams with paper-thin defenses. I used Deoxy-E in the first week of its arrival and remember just tearing teams to shreds with little effort, simply because he blasted through the offensive teams of the time. Lately, he is very counterable because the metagame has quietly shifted to restrain him. For example, Porygon-Z and many other Choice Scarfers like Typhlosion have completely lost their place in the world, as a fast Ice Beam or HP Ice was always an insurance against the deadly Dragons. Not only does Deoxys-E fill this role better, but he plows through them easily also and doesn't need to think twice about it. I bet if you DID check the usage statistics, things like the same Porygon-Z and Typhlosion(once a higher BL) have fallen considerably. Therefore, people stopped thinking quick, and started thinking bulky. Steel types are all the rage to provided adequate protection against Dragons AND Deoxys, as those previous scarfers could easily revenge them not too long ago.
Deoxys-E didn't replace Scarfers!
You're right. But now scarfers carry a completely different purpose and are put on completely different things. Scarfed Tyranitar, Metagross, and Heatran are now extremely common to deal with the newfound threats of SD Lucario. Deoxys-E cannot fill that role because of Extremespeed, and the frailer scarfers as well. Choice Scarf used to be an item used to do clean revenge kills, but now its used more to fight through a threat by slapping it on a seemingly slow and bulky pokemon to get a surprise kill. Other than that, Deoxys-E simply outclasseses Revenge-Killing Scarfers.
Offensive teams aren't dead!
A few months ago, it was not uncommon to see teams of Gyarados, Salamence, Gengar, Infernape, Azelf, Weavile, Heracross, Electivire, etc with no walls and they could easily overwhelm most teams, reallying on their speed and heavy hitting to pave the way. Deoxys-E completely eliminated this. Why? Of the pokemon I just listed, all of them have been in the top 20 at one point in the Metagame, and Deoxys-E has the power and movepool to outspeed and OHKO EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. This isn't the sole argument about his uberness. Its the fact that resistence based teams like that cut up like a hot knife through butter and are no longer viable in OU. Now, the current standard teams look like:
Garchomp / Bulky Water X / Steel #1 / Choice Scarfer / Gyarados Counter / Back Up Sweeper...
Which translates to Garchomp / Vaporeon / Bronzong / Tyranitar / Celebi / Lucario... sound familiar???
Not that originality is all important in pokemon, but the fact that a good majority of teams nowadays conform to similar models with excessively bulky sweepers and tanks is a testament to Deoxys-E's impact on the metagame.
Deoxys-E can't sweep better than Garchomp!
No, but the damn thing has so many other move options as well. Not only does he have the ability to completely demolish offensive teams, but he can run defensive sets decently, lay spikes and stealth rock, stall, tank, Calm Mind, and even run the same Counter Star set as Starmie, but with even higher stats, making that obselete. When you look at other OUs such as Garchomp and Lucario that appear to be "uncounterable" remember that their versatility is almost 100% offensive, and they do not have the movepools to fulfill various roles on a team. Deoxys-E is like a wildcard or Joker in a deck of cards; you can make him anything you want. This also happens to be the argument about why various ubers such as Mew and Darkrai remain in ubers. It's not always about having "counters," but about what a pokemon can bring to the table to affect the game.
In Conclusion, Deoxys-E should be made Uber because he has impacted the metagame enough and was a huge damper on the diversity of STYLES of pokemon play. Even teams revolving around Sweeper A or B opening up to sweep, many pokemon are not granted the speed necessary to even think about surpassing Deoxys-E after you put in your hard work.
Alright, DX-S..is?
I agree with this fellow guy here. Reason being that Spiritomb takes DX-S's hits. It's not really THAT difficult to take down as I seen on IRC a discussion some of my friends had. Steels wall it; Metagross. Jirachi completely stops DX-S. Bonzong, Cresselia, and even Wobbufett (who I believe should be OU because his ability; Shadow Tag, is broken,) stops Deoxys-S As I said, Spiritomb takes all of DS-X's attacks. It can also pursuit into a switch because it doesn't want to get STAB'd ghost / dark type attacks. It's speed is nothing to stop, just remember that it's base stats are not THAT high for an uber. Therefor, I am voting DX-S as OU. A lot of Pokemons clean up and sweep a late game. Almost any Pokemon can take on DX-S no matter the comparison of there speed. All I have to say is, deal with it. Speed is nothing. There are many Pokemons that stop DX-S and counter him. Ninjask rapes DX-S after a speed boost. Tell me he doesn't?
And another thing, there are also many sweepers that are a better sweeper than Deoxies.
Yes, these are some of the lists of Pokemons that beat DX-S at sweeping. In conclusion, Deoxys-S should remain OU. Don't let this fool stop you and make it change the way the metagame is played. This also may help you find many ways to stop DX-S and win over it. It's VERY possible, it's not impossible. No Pokemon is impossible to defeat (unless they have 999 or stats increase x)).
x)
I agree with this fellow guy here. Reason being that Spiritomb takes DX-S's hits. It's not really THAT difficult to take down as I seen on IRC a discussion some of my friends had. Steels wall it; Metagross. Jirachi completely stops DX-S. Bonzong, Cresselia, and even Wobbufett (who I believe should be OU because his ability; Shadow Tag, is broken,) stops Deoxys-S As I said, Spiritomb takes all of DS-X's attacks. It can also pursuit into a switch because it doesn't want to get STAB'd ghost / dark type attacks. It's speed is nothing to stop, just remember that it's base stats are not THAT high for an uber. Therefor, I am voting DX-S as OU. A lot of Pokemons clean up and sweep a late game. Almost any Pokemon can take on DX-S no matter the comparison of there speed. All I have to say is, deal with it. Speed is nothing. There are many Pokemons that stop DX-S and counter him. Ninjask rapes DX-S after a speed boost. Tell me he doesn't?
And another thing, there are also many sweepers that are a better sweeper than Deoxies.
MixApe
MixMence
Garchomp
Lucario
DD T-tar
DD Gyarados
and etc.
Yes, these are some of the lists of Pokemons that beat DX-S at sweeping. In conclusion, Deoxys-S should remain OU. Don't let this fool stop you and make it change the way the metagame is played. This also may help you find many ways to stop DX-S and win over it. It's VERY possible, it's not impossible. No Pokemon is impossible to defeat (unless they have 999 or stats increase x)).
x)
Alright, I guess you're right about the Blissey thing.
With your Toxic Spikes comment, that would be correct, if Deoxys-S was actually a Tank with the Cosmic Wall set. However, the truth is, that it's not going to be attacking stuff very much with only Night Shade, unlike the stuff that you mentioned. All it can do is sit there and try to stall things out of their PP. In other words, I don't see stuff like Tyranitar dropping in usage becuase they're trying to Tank so they can take hits but dish them back just as hard. However, Toxic Spikes has made the Deoxys-S Cosmic Wall much much rarer than the Life Orb set because it completely ruins the purpose of the set, which is to stay in, raise defenses and stall the crap out of things while preventing them from statusing him or setting up, but this has already failed with Toxic Spikes up.
Dude, there's a couple of things wrong with this. First off, of all the pokemon you just listed, only Azelf and Electivire are not still in the top 20, and Electivire's never been in the top 20, even in October, so I don't know what you're trying to say here.
Also, if offensive teams were able to "easily overwhelm" teams with speed and brute strength before DX-S came along, doesn't that mean that DX-S's prescence is a good thing since he's technically putting them in check from dominating so much? If it's creating balance like that, maybe it's doing the metagame a favour.
Yeah, and DX-S has less than a 1% chance of OHKOing a 0/0 Azelf with Shadow Ball, and it'll never be OHKOing Electivire unless it uses Psycho Boost, which isn't even guaranteed to OHKO, and put DX-S at a huge disadvantage since it has to switch out, and switching in IS NOT an easy thing for DX-S to do. Remember, even when its hitting SE, it's not always a OHKO, in fact, a lot of the time, it isn't.
@Iggybot's post below - I only brought up that Thunder Wave point to compliment what Kietharr said about Deoxys-S being especially vunerable to status. Also, Electivire can outspeed the standard set that has 462 speed if E-Vire just carries a +Spd nature.
I do remember the point about being able to take things from 50% to 0% and stuff, but in all truth, frail sweeper can get 50% of their health taken off by a lot of stuff. I'm still not quite sure why when people refer to offensive teams, they all have to be extremely frail and extremely fast as well, it's not as if slow/bulky pokemon can't be offensive too...
Yeah? No shit. Saying "Deoxys-S is usless when paralyzed" isn't even an argument that should be even considered, by ANY serious player, when thinking about uber vs OU for Deoxys-S. Infernape, Yanmega, Gengar, Azelf, Kingdra, and tons of other pokemon are also rendered almost usless when paralyzed. I don't even know you keep bringing this up.
Electivire is still outsped, and hit for 61.3% - 71.92% from Psychic, and 94.18% - 110.62% from Psycho Boost. Kingdra is hit for neutral damage by every attack Deoxys-S has, and will either be 2HKO'd by any attack + Psychic, or will KO itself with Life Orb recoil. You're right, Swampert does do a decent job if Deoxys-S doesn't have Grass Knot.
Gallade does a decent job, yes. Yanmega only revenge kills Deoxys-S if it's +speed, which most Yanmega's are not.
The fact that Deoxys-S's weakest attack is 95 BP makes them being unstabbed irrelevant. Deoxys-S doesn't have huge OHKO power. It doesn't need it in most cases. The types of teams that Deoxys-S simply rips apart don't require big OHKO power to tear through. I don't remember if this was mentioned early in this thread or on IRC, but Deoxys-S may not that the power to take much from 100% -> 0%, but it has more than enough to take almost all of OU from 50%/60%/70% -> 0%, and it hits before everything else. This is something that is simply overpowering in OU, and something that NOTHING else can claim.
I think a lot of people are misinterpreting "uber."
Saying Deoxys-E is "uber" because steel pokemon can counter it is completely half-assed argument.
Were are voting on its affect on the Metagame and if it should go up in teirs. There are OU counters for many uber pokemon right now and that doesn't change their status. The point I want to make to anyone else voting without a good deal of knowledge of what their talking about is that is Deoxys negatively impacting the metagame? Is he helping the metagame? My stance was already said in my vote so I won't repeat it. But I encourage some better reasons than "Deoxys-E never sweeps me so it can't be uber" and "Pokemon X can sweep just as good as Deoxys-E so he's OU." That's like saying Ninjask can baton pass just as good as Mew.. which means... absolutely nothing.
Saying Deoxys-E is "uber" because steel pokemon can counter it is completely half-assed argument.
Were are voting on its affect on the Metagame and if it should go up in teirs. There are OU counters for many uber pokemon right now and that doesn't change their status. The point I want to make to anyone else voting without a good deal of knowledge of what their talking about is that is Deoxys negatively impacting the metagame? Is he helping the metagame? My stance was already said in my vote so I won't repeat it. But I encourage some better reasons than "Deoxys-E never sweeps me so it can't be uber" and "Pokemon X can sweep just as good as Deoxys-E so he's OU." That's like saying Ninjask can baton pass just as good as Mew.. which means... absolutely nothing.
Raikoulover said:
Can you please prove this, or at least show some actual support for such a blanket statement =/
So many offensive teams at the top of the ladder continue to be offensive, even with the presence of Deoxys-S =/
Sorry but I hate it when people resort to this, so I'm going to have to edit this in. Raikoulover, YOU are the one making a halfassed argument by making an unprovable blanket statement. Sorry, but as a HUGE fan of offensive teams and the offensive styles, I say that that offensive styles HAVEN'T been dampered. What now?
(see the problem)
Offensive teams are still useful no doubt. But the general trend in the metagame on Shoddy is that teams have conformed to what I stated in my post. Sure, you use a successful offensive team and it does fine. Great. But I know you and other shoddy battle regulars have noticed that matches of offensive tactics have become considerably rarer, and matches are now slower, bulkier slug fests. Hell, most teams I see now only have 1 or 2 pokemon over 300 speed.
There is no real way to prove this, so I'm merely stating an observation that many will agree with me on and have alluded to in their posts in this thread.
There is no real way to prove this, so I'm merely stating an observation that many will agree with me on and have alluded to in their posts in this thread.
I vote Deoxys-E to be not uber. I think it is a pokemon that fills a niche that had not existed yet, a pokemon with the potential for good defenses and revenge killing combined with a great speed. All of the sets Deoxys-E runs have some sort of exploitable weakness, from the revenge-killer's mediocre defenses to the fact that for the defensive form critical hits will happen and will KO. He is like Heracross, he's only truly dangerous if you're not preprared, but preparing for him isn't hard to come by.
This is the case for every fragile OU Pokemon that relies on Speed. Oh, should I mention that Deoxys E actually has better defenses than some of these Pokemon anyway so paralysis isn't as terrible on him compared to the other OU Sweepers?
Status stops a lot of things, even in Ubers. I'm not sure what your argument is here
It takes then a lot better than some other Pokemon we all know and love.
See above argument.
Is that a generalization? Please back this statement up, especially since...
...Toxic Spikes and T Wave should Never, Ever, be on the same team.
I'm pretty sure Garchomp has to be careful switching into Ice Beams. Seriously everything has to be careful when switching in. Everything has to be careful when they switch in :|
This doesn't follow logically. You claim that they are NOT obsolete because people DON'T make their entire team out of Choice Scarfers?
You mean, "Pokemon that aren't weak to a move in Deoxys E's really crazy movepool"
Have you played an offensive team?
Statements like this makes me question your "experiences" with one. Please tell me you're just not theorymonning us to death.
And hope that the Deoxys S user doesn't start predicting. Assuming 1/2 chance of it happening, "good luck switching around, especially with SR around"
Hey Deoxys E has a faster taunt!
Experience of theorymon, I would presume by your above post, and the posts that follows...
Why do you need to listen to other people's arguments if you had enough experiences with it? Why does it have to be "from what you said", and not "Well that's because that's how you play"?
Kyogre has Counters in OU.
Also your job is to make sure Bronzong never survives. If it does, you lose. This is Pokemon, you're SUPPOSED to use all 6 pokemon and unite them for the purpose of winning.
Since when was this ever an argument for a Pokemon being uber? Don't use strawman arguments.
Stealth Rock, and still loses to most scarfers, and doesn't have a crazy movepool. Comparing Pokemon is always a terrible idea, I thought you knew better than this, especially since you do enjoy making quirky sets to use in OU, you should know the concept of a specific role only a given Pokemon can do. Right? I'm not going to bother answering your electivire argument for this very reason.
The reason most people take your "experiences" lightly since you seem to have this magical way of stopping Garchomps with your Jumpluff and "never have problems with it"
There isn't anything wrong - he's just pointing out your arguments are faulty.
You did read the Wobbuffet thread, right? Also, the Garchomp is actually one of those few Pokemon accused of centralizing the metagame bit too far - it has little to do with "no counters".
I'm seriously not going to go through this anymore and respond to your "arguments" anymore. The thing is that nearly all of your "arguments" and "responses" are, in the end, STATEMENTS. Your arguments seem to boil down to if one doesn't work, this one shouldn't work for the same reason. It can be stopped, so just deal with it. If this is the reason why for X, then it should be the reason for Y. It doesn't matter that X has different quality from Y. Know that this is never always the case and honestly I don't think anyone will ever take you seriously without you making statements that just make us sometimes question whether or not you're playing the same game as us especially your arguments just end with those kinds of statements. We are left with very little insight into why you think this way unless you seem to think that every Pokemon can be dumbed down the same thing (which contradicts the purpose of using UU in OU, so I'm doubting it). Please BACK UP these statements, or "borderline arguments" really since at times a lot of us just facepalm while reading them.
I think this statement makes it pretty clear that you're only thinking of this in a very limited way and a very one sided manner. To stretch your argument it'd be like "Aromatheraphy Blissey can beat Lugia because Lugia can't do damage to it", or even "Fainting a Pokemon stops it so it's stoppable". Obviously these aren't your arguments but by stretching them to this extent I think you can see what's wrong with a lot of the arguments you make and why people are so quick to jump on you. You just seem to need other people to make points for you before you're capable of making a valid point(You did a pretty good job summarizing the offensive team arguments).
Can't you expand on your arguments a little better and not just use examples and hope that they work? Can't you at least show us that you have insight into the game which I'm sure you do? Don't just tell us "arguments" from other people you have overheard, or "arguments" that *might* happen, or "theorymon" even.
Uhh, if a pokemon is countered by pokemon of an entire type, then it's kind of not a half-assed argument...
Why the heck should Deoxys-S have to be helping the metagame to be allowed? The only pokemon that's really "helping" the metagame is Blissey. Also, I just gave you a very good reason as to why I believe that Deoxys-S is helping the metagame, but it doesn't appear that you listened to it.
What's wrong with people speaking from their own experiences? Not everyone has to say the same thing over and over about how it "hurts offensive teams" or something. If they say that DX-S never sweeps them, then that's a valid reason for them to vote the way that they want, since they're talking about their experiences facing the thing, which is the kind of stuff we want as well as the impact and such.
Also, every uber is going to feel like it's had a negative impact on the game when it's brought down! When you bring in a new threat, people are going to try their hardest to counter the thing, and if certain pokemon start becoming less used and some becoming more used, we can't just send it right back to uber because a couple of pokemon start to get excluded. How else are we going to move ANYTHING down if we have that kind of attitude?
Tangerine -
I don't totally support the Thunder Wave argument anymore, though I was just using that recently as a point that it was "vunerable to status". I'm not trying to use theorymon here, I play the game just as much as you do. Ok, I'll agree that some of my arguments aren't as clear as they should be, and I will try to fix that.
I'll agree that there are much more slower bulky sweepers in the game, there's no denying that. However, this has led to people wanting "parasupport" for their teams, as they don't want their main sweepers, which are no longer always extremely fast to be outsped. This has led a lot of people to using a paralysis move on their team, which is where I got that statement from. It's also not a terrible idea for teams to carry both Toxic Spikes and Thunder Wave, since it helps greatly against Togekiss and Salamence, as well as Azelf and Lucario, since one of them can flinchhax you if you if it's not paralyzed itself, and it helps a lot against the other three since they have the potential to sweep your team.
Deoxys-S may take hits a lot better than some of the pokemon in OU, but honestly, not by much. With the Hasty Nature, even neutral attacks lay the pounding on it, especially if they're physical because of the -Def nature. This leads to you question about if I have played an offensive team or not. Yes, I have played an offensive team, but Deoxys-S has a boatload of trouble switching into the hard-hitters on those types of teams. I am aware that it can just come in on a revenge-kill, but there is also no guarantee that it can OHKO, and coupled with the Life Orb damage plus the hit it takes if it doesn't OHKO, a huge amount of its life is gone, and that's what I meant when I said that Deoxys-S doesn't give offensive teams a humongous amount of trouble. I guess I did make a bit of a bold statement when I said that Rapid Spinners should be on offensive teams, but I had one on my previous offensive team and it helped a lot. Whatever, I guess that was a pretty stupid statement then. Yeah, and the next two statements (ugh, wow I look like a retard, sorry about this).
Umm, about the next statement, I said "from what you said", because I was interpreting something he said? I listened to the argument and I didn't agree with it. If you have to set up 3 layers of spikes, a layer of stealth rock, two layers of Toxic Spikes, have all counters gone, have everything else below 50%, and have Deoxys-S in perfect condition in order for it to sweep, and I don't agree with that argument, why should I have to?
Yes, Kyogre may have counters in OU, but they're extremely shaky counters. You can't seriously tell me that Ludicolo and Quagsire count as counters to it, since they don't even have recovery. I'm not sure why people keep on citing Kyogre when they try to counter the "counters" argument, because it doesn't work. Ok, fine, I guess that you're supposed to use all 6 pokemon, since it is a team game. However, all I was wondering was what would happen Bronzong was forced to face one of its supposed counters. Honestly, you may think that it's so easy to just "make sure that Bronzong never ever survives", but all the Bronzong user has to do is, y'know, just not bring out Bronzong, unless you're implying that every team has a phazer.
Yeah, I won't compare pokemon anymore, sorry about that. The taking my experiences "lightly" is an odd statement for you to make, especially since it's not "most people". If I stop Garchomp with the Jumpluff set that I used, when why should people take it "lightly"? Why the fuck did I even post that if people are just going to take it "lightly"? I was hesistant to post that Jumpluff set, and honestly, maybe I should just keep my team members to myself from now on if people obviously aren't going to care. If I've never had problems with Garchomp when using that Jumpluff, why is that so hard to believe? Just because a lot of people have problems with it, it doesn't mean that everyone has to, and it sure as hell doesn't mean that they're not supposed to be taken seriously. Sorry, but it just kinda pisses me off because I'm actually trying here, but it doesn't look like my arguments are very good.
I'll try to make my arguments into less statements and such if it'll help people take me more seriously. You are right, I do tend to need other people to make a point before I can make a valid point, and I really do want to fix that. If I expand my arguments too much, people will most likely just not read them because they'll be too long, I can't create a balance it seems. Thanks for the compliment about the offensive teams thing, and at least knowing that I have insight in the game. I assure you, that I am not using theorymon, just that my arguments have a bad format that I have never been famous for. Sorry Tangie, I'll try harder. :(
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