***[VOTE] The final Wobbuffet "discussion" thread***

Wob is Uber. Everything needed to be said has been said already. He takes the strategy aspect out of the window because he can literally pick a part any hole in your team that he wants.

As for statistics... in the case of wob they literally mean nothing because a large amount of battlers in this very poll elect not to use him.

My vote goes for Uber. Wobbuffet adds a whole new element to the game, an element that I personally feel is completely undesirable - especially in a community created to promote the skill in competitive battling.

He stops the game in a way no other trapper can. A lot of people have been talking about Shadow Tag/Encore being the primary reason he's broken, but I'd like to point out another. That is, while Dugtrio and Magnezone are limited to things their STAB or SE moves can kill, Wobbuffet can kill anything. Not only can he trap he Pokemon, he also has two moves - Counter and Mirror Coat - that completely ignore weakness/resistance modifiers (not immunities, though) and actually become more effective moves the stronger your moves are. Not only can Wobbuffet trap stuff, he's got two attacks that will kill you regardless of how stacked your defenses are. The only other options are to attack him passively (status, field hazards) or stat up; Both of those suit Wobb equally as well because it means he gets to live for more of the battle and set something else up.

To summarize:

Wobbuffet removes switching (as do Dugtrio and Magnezone), with the addition or turning anything that tries to harm him indirectly into set-up bait, anything that tries to beef up into set-up bait, and anything that tries to hurt him into fish-bait. He's got the two best type-ignoring moves in the game, as well as the stats/ability to abuse them. The element he brings to any match he appears in is undesirable for a community that endeavors to teach skill at competitive battling, hence why I think he should go.

edit: note if he counter/mirror coats something to death he can usually only do it once a match, two at most (just thought I'd clarify before I was called out on it again!)

I believe I can't vote because I am less than 3 months (I saw a rule saying that earlier), but I will just weight in my thoughts and not bold my vote. EDIT: yep, its in the announcement right on top of the page saying I can't vote. I knew it was somewhere painfully obvious and in front of my face when I typed this out, but I won't bold my vote and just give you my thoughts.

The only thing I can offer is an analogy to some pitchers in Major League Baseball. When the game starts to get out of hand and you give up a couple hits, as a pitcher you can attempt to control the pace of the game. You can slow yourself down, take more time off the mound, and try too cool down the momentum of the opposing teams batters. Umpires are there to enforce rules and keep it rolling, but, as a Twins fan, I can still tell when Livan Hernandez is stalling for the sole purpose of trying to halt the opposing momentum and take control of the game and put it into his own hands again. This is alright and just a part of the game. However, if a pitcher got in trouble and they could just summon a rain cloud over the game to stop the game for 10 minutes Im sure they would do that any time the opposing team starts to put together a rally. Obviously that isn't possible (maybe you can try a little Rain Dance in the dugouts?) and it would be highly unfair if a pitcher could just halt the game for 5 to 10 minutes to slow the other team's excitement down and advantage. Anyone that plays or watches baseball knows that sometimes hitting comes in bunches and you feed off the emotions of the people around you. It is just a part of the game. (It isn't really a part of pokemon since I don't think your Garchomp can feed off the excitement created by a member of your team eliminating a key counter, but you get my point. Pokemon has its own pace to games created by different pokemon and playstyles.)

Wobbuffet is just like the rain cloud - he can STOP the game and halt momentum. I've tested Wobbuffet for a while now and it just isn't right. It ruins the game in my opinon and makes Wobbuffet become a class of his own - which belongs on the Uber tier.

Unless somebody thinks that putting Shed Shell on everything is a viable solution to dealing with Wobbuffet, then I completely agree that he throws an important aspect of the game (switching) right out the window and is therefore uber.

Rai said:

The retarded stalls are another thing, with people encoring a move and then safeguarding in between until they struggle to death. That shouldn't be allowed to happen, and I don't think i have to say why.

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Because it's a known bug and doesn't happen in-game? Yeah, that's a pretty good reason why it shouldn't be allowed to happen....

I assume that's what you meant.

Wobbuffet is UBER. Nothing else, even in the ubers tier, has the ability to just stop the pace of the game the way Wobbuffet does. If it comes in, you can't do anything. The same exact thing happens every time - the player who just got trapped has to attack Wobbuffet directly and risk their own pokemon dying in order to prevent their opponent setting up for a sweep. It's not theorymon; it's the only option. Just by virtue of being there, Wobbuffet has removed the other option - switch.

The metagame does not "overcentralize" around Wobbuffet because, quite frankly, it can't. You cannot rationally set your whole entire team (because that's what it takes) up to counter Wobbuffet without seriously putting yourself at a disadvantage against everything else. Quoted from the Wobbuffet analysis itself,

"Wobbuffet is not one of those Pokémon every team should be prepared for"

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Even something as rediculous as Kyogre still has its counters in OU. Not that it'd ever be unbanned, but you could still switch in Quagsire to absorb its Thunder or Water Spout. The difference between Wobbuffet and a clear uber such as Kyogre is not Wobb's lower stat total, or the fact that it only learns 7 moves (one of which being Splash), but the fact that it completely leaves its opponents with no options. The only thing you can do is guess whether the Wobby user is going to Encore or CounterCoat, and react accordingly. And since they can get their Wobbuffet in against anything they'd like, they already have the advantage.

It's not something that requires a good amount of skill to use, and on the flip side of things, no amount of skill is really going to save you if it comes in because you have no options. If it comes in on your [name of slow wall that did not choose an offensive move that turn], you at the very least allowed your opponent a free Swords Dance/Nasty Plot/Dragon Dance/whatever. At the worst, since the Shoddy bug has yet to be fixed, and it looks like event moves are going to be allowed, you lost a pokemon, without even threatening Wobbuffet back.

Wobbuffet is UBER!!!

So here is my reasoning. He might not be used a lot on shoddy and the records dont show he is uber material there because most people dont use him because tehy flat out dont like him. He is a cheep and no skill way to win. Wobbo also hasnt made people change their teams because there isnt a point in it. If you change your team to counter that one random Wobbo you see, your team is going to lose to all the other teams out there with the people being considerate enough to NOT use him. He simply cannot be countered without messing with your team to the point that you lose to everything else.
Wobbo himself is not uber material, he fails in general, but it is his ability to trap just the right pokemon to completely skrew someone out of a match, all because they were not able to switch. He is the only pokemon where this ability is a problem. Dugtrio isnt a problem simply because he normally doesnt kill the pokemon he is trapping and most hits can take him out. It isnt a stratigy at all, it is simply getting lucky and guessing the right move and having a pokemon that nearly nothing can counter.

Wobbo is broken!

My vote is for Not Uber. There is simply just so little evidence going against him - he cannot be broken and be sitting in the mid-40s in weighted usage. A Shed Shell ruins him, but we haven't even had to throw that on anything significant yet to deal with it. Wobb has not altered the metagame in a negative way in my opinion, and should be left in OU. It is not centralizing by forcing us to use certain pokemon to counter it, and it is not overcentralizing by forcing us to use it to win.

I am actually going to have to disagree with the majority here and say that Wobbuffet is Not Uber. Maybe it's because I haven't had enough experience with it, but I think that Wobbuffet just brings something unique to the table that people may not be prepared for or are not neccesarily used to. Before I go into "why it should be OU", let me explain why I think it is "not Uber" first since I haven't seen many of those points.


Overview of why it is not Uber
I do not believe that it belongs in Ubers because it is not good enough to compete with others that already reside in Ubers IMO. I think that, if it does become OU, it would become one of the more seen OUs in Ubers, but that does not make it Uber. Blissey is probably one of the OU Pokemon you see the most in the Uber Metagame, but does that make it Uber?
Specific Reasoning
Fighting (offensive wise) is not as near as important in Ubers as it is in OU and Wobbuffet is one of the few that resist it in OU. In OU there are more fighting types that wreck havock because there are so many OUs or other tier pokemon that either are weak or neutral to fighting and because of CC's massive 120 base power. Where in Ubers, there are only two pokemon weak to fighting and with all of the Psychic Pokemon running around in Ubers already, Wobbuffett's use wouldn't be as needed as it would be in OU. So it seems more fit to put it in OU where it would have more of an impact, than in Ubers where it has more limited use. Even if it is put in OU that wouldn't restrict people from using it in Ubers, but if it was the other way around then it would be different.

Why it should be OU
Now to the OU side. It seems as though the aspect about trapping seems to be the most contraveral about Wobbuffet. I've seen a lot people mention the other trappers such as Magnezone, Dugtrio, Weavile, etc. and it is brought up that they can only trap and kill a specific amount of Pokemon so let's take a look at what they do.

Wobbuffet: Dugtrio, Gallade, Garchomp, Gengar, Heatran, Heracross, Lucario, Machamp, Mamoswine, Metagross, Porygon-Z, Salamence, Starmie, Tyranitar, Weavile, etc.

Here I compliled a list of the most popular Choice users in OU that Wobbuffet could depending on the circumstance revenge kill. That is 15 in total at least.

Dugtrio (w/Jolly Nature)@Choice Band: Abomasnow, Breloom, Electivire, Heatran, Heracross, Infernape, Lucario, Magnezone, Metagross, Starmie, Tentacruel, Tyranitar, Yanmega, Deoxys-S, Salamence, etc.

Revenge Killing with Dugtrio. 15 in total at least.

Specific Reason
So I know there are other Pokemon that Dugtrio could revenge kill and there are other Pokemon that Wobbuffet could revenge kill as well, but there would be too much to take into account there and not enough considering here, etc. So these are just figurative lists. The only difference between these two is Wobbuffet's abilty to Encore allowing for another pokemon to easily switch in and Wobba's defenses being much higher. There are other pokemon, maybe not as easily as Wobbuffet, that allow for an easy switch in as well so I don't see why it's so threatening. Encore can also go wrong for a person who is facing a status up-er.


So overall my thoughts are that Wobbuffet's abilty to completely stop the game is a new aspect or idea that it could bring to the metagame. I don't think it is impossible to get around, I just think it would require different thinking, perhaps more shed shells used instead of leftovers everywhere.

I do not believe that it belongs in Ubers because it is not good enough to compete with others that already reside in Ubers IMO.

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That has absolutely nothing to do with a Pokemon being classified as Uber.

The only difference between these two is Wobbuffet's abilty to Encore allowing for another pokemon to easily switch in and Wobba's defenses being much higher. There are other pokemon, maybe not as easily as Wobbuffet, that allow for an easy switch in as well so I don't see why it's so threatening. Encore can also go wrong for a person who is facing a status up-er.

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If you read the first 2 pages or so, most of the arguments are simply on the fact that it can trap and encore, not because it can "revenge kill" and just "trap kill", although that's a very nice bonus. trapping + Encore GUARANTEES a free turn, something most encorers can't really guarantee since most pokemon will switch out anyway

Gymdude said:

Overview of why it is not Uber
I do not believe that it belongs in Ubers because it is not good enough to compete with others that already reside in Ubers IMO. I think that, if it does become OU, it would become one of the more seen OUs in Ubers, but that does not make it Uber. Blissey is probably one of the OU Pokemon you see the most in the Uber Metagame, but does that make it Uber?

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Ubers is meant as a ban list from OU. Not a balanced tier. So no, the "it's not good enough for ubers" reasoning does not work. And Blissey in OU is actually a de-centralizing force, not a centralizing one. Sure every team has to pack some sort of a way to beat it, but without her, Azelf, Alakazam, Gengar, and other special sweepers would absolutely dominate.

Specific Reasoning
Fighting (offensive wise) is not as near as important in Ubers as it is in OU and Wobbuffet is one of the few that resist it in OU. In OU there are more fighting types that wreck havock because there are so many OUs or other tier pokemon that either are weak or neutral to fighting and because of CC's massive 120 base power. Where in Ubers, there are only two pokemon weak to fighting and with all of the Psychic Pokemon running around in Ubers already, Wobbuffett's use wouldn't be as needed as it would be in OU. So it seems more fit to put it in OU where it would have more of an impact, than in Ubers where it has more limited use. Even if it is put in OU that wouldn't restrict people from using it in Ubers, but if it was the other way around then it would be different.

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Did you just say "Wobbuffet should be OU because it can counter Fighting-types?" So can Cresselia. So can Spiritomb. So can Weezing. So can Dusknoir. By that logic, "Lugia should be OU because it can counter Fighting-types." Again, ubers is a ban list for OU, not a balanced tier.

Why it should be OU
Now to the OU side. It seems as though the aspect about trapping seems to be the most contraveral about Wobbuffet. I've seen a lot people mention the other trappers such as Magnezone, Dugtrio, Weavile, etc. and it is brought up that they can only trap and kill a specific amount of Pokemon so let's take a look at what they do.

Wobbuffet: Dugtrio, Gallade, Garchomp, Gengar, Heatran, Heracross, Lucario, Machamp, Mamoswine, Metagross, Porygon-Z, Salamence, Starmie, Tyranitar, Weavile, etc.

Here I compliled a list of the most popular Choice users in OU that Wobbuffet could depending on the circumstance revenge kill. That is 15 in total at least.

Dugtrio (w/Jolly Nature)@Choice Band: Abomasnow, Breloom, Electivire, Heatran, Heracross, Infernape, Lucario, Magnezone, Metagross, Starmie, Tentacruel, Tyranitar, Yanmega, Deoxys-S, Salamence, etc.

Revenge Killing with Dugtrio. 15 in total at least.

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That made no sense, so I'm ignoring it.

Specific Reason
So I know there are other Pokemon that Dugtrio could revenge kill and there are other Pokemon that Wobbuffet could revenge kill as well, but there would be too much to take into account there and not enough considering here, etc. So these are just figurative lists. The only difference between these two is Wobbuffet's abilty to Encore allowing for another pokemon to easily switch in and Wobba's defenses being much higher. There are other pokemon, maybe not as easily as Wobbuffet, that allow for an easy switch in as well so I don't see why it's so threatening. Encore can also go wrong for a person who is facing a status up-er.

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At least you realize what makes Wobbuffet different from Dugtrio or Magnezone - Encore. And it's a pretty big difference. If Wobbuffet was simply a "revenge-kill" pokemon without access to Encore, it would probably be NU. Opponents could just stat up against it all day long, without fear of getting themselves being swept.

Once Dugtrio or Magnezone have "done their thing," they can be easily set up on or revenge killed. Dugtrio is limited by 211 hp and 156 defense. Magnezone is limited by the small number of things it can trap and kill successfully.

So overall my thoughts are that Wobbuffet's abilty to completely stop the game is a new aspect or idea that it could bring to the metagame. I don't think it is impossible to get around, I just think it would require different thinking, perhaps more shed shells used instead of leftovers everywhere.

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Item being REQUIRED (not just helpful) to counter one pokemon is overcentralization.

uber, and i think syberia brings upan excellent point re: "overcentralization", and i believe brings up our perhaps shaky present definition of uber ;[

just read chaos' other sticky so

id move wobba to uber pretty much because he takes apart most walls with not much strategy needed. smart wobba users know exactly when to bring it in, at which point often the game loses all aspect of strategy, need for good team building, prediction and generally most of what we consider to be "positive" aspects of the game.

people who argue about any specific pokemon beating wobba seem to forget that all the person with a wobba has to do is not bring in wobba on those pokemon (see removal of any need for good team building)

GymDude said:

Encore can also go wrong for a person who is facing a status up-er.

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If you had any experience with Wobbuffet, you would know that encoring a stat-up attack is one of the best situations you can get yourself into, considering now they're stuck for 4-8 turns stat-upping (if they don't switch), and in that time, you can send in your own stat-up pokemon, get 1-2 boosts, and easily KO their pokemon that is STILL stuck in the same attack, if your opponent hasn't switched out yet.

Honestly, theorymon needs to stop being used in arguments in this thread.

IggyBot said:

If you had any experience with Wobbuffet, you would know that encoring a stat-up attack is one of the best situations you can get yourself into, considering now they're stuck for 4-8 turns stat-upping (if they don't switch), and in that time, you can send in your own stat-up pokemon, get 1-2 boosts, and easily KO their pokemon that is STILL stuck in the same attack, if your opponent hasn't switched out yet.

Honestly, theorymon needs to stop being used in arguments in this thread.

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I agree. It is obvious GymDude doesn't really know what is going on, so...

IggyBot said:

If you had any experience with Wobbuffet, you would know that encoring a stat-up attack is one of the best situations you can get yourself into, considering now they're stuck for 4-8 turns stat-upping (if they don't switch), and in that time, you can send in your own stat-up pokemon, get 1-2 boosts, and easily KO their pokemon that is STILL stuck in the same attack, if your opponent hasn't switched out yet.

Honestly, theorymon needs to stop being used in arguments in this thread.

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I don't mean just simply encoring a stat, I mean if someone predicts Wobbuffet is going to use Mirror Coat or Counter and therefore uses a stat up move then uses the next move to kill off Wobba. I guess I should've explained that more clearly.

thats still situational theorymon lol

you're also operating under the assumption that the wobba user will not know when to safely encore.

Gymdude said:

I don't mean just simply encoring a stat, I mean if someone predicts Wobbuffet is going to use Mirror Coat or Counter and therefore uses a stat up move then uses the next move to kill off Wobba. I guess I should've explained that more clearly.

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Wobbuffet will always being using Encore first, so I don't see how this statement holds true. Encore immediatly stops your whole situation.

Unless the user of Wobbuffet expects the attacker to expect his Encore and just attack, in which case he will use Counter/Mirror Coat. But the fact remains that, since both sides can "predict" (or in the case of offensive pokemon with stat-up move vs. Wobbuffet, it is more of a straight guess), prediction cannot be used as an argument for or against its banning.

ulat

Syberia said:

Unless the user of Wobbuffet expects the attacker to expect his Encore and just attack, in which case he will use Counter/Mirror Coat. But the fact remains that, since both sides can "predict" (or in the case of offensive pokemon with stat-up move vs. Wobbuffet, it is more of a straight guess), prediction cannot be used as an argument for or against its banning.

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The safest move is to Encore, always (with the exception of Choice pokemon, who obviously are already locked into a attack for you). This eliminates prediction, which is one of the reasons I think Wobbuffet should be banned.

But the safest thing for the other player to do is always to just attack. If I ever see a Wobbuffet, if I don't disconnect out of annoyance, I always attack. Better to get some damage on it than none at all.

IggyBot said:

ulat

The safest move is to Encore, always (with the exception of Choice pokemon, who obviously are already locked into a attack for you). This eliminates prediction, which is one of the reasons I think Wobbuffet should be banned.

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A slight nitpick, in some cases the safest move is to dbond. If you are against t-tar and don't know what set it is using, it is generally safer than encoring a CB tar's crunch or countering a DDtar's DD.

i vote wobby to be uber because as stated before he reduced the skill needed to play and this is against smogon competitive philosopy.

Khelvaster said:

A slight nitpick, in some cases the safest move is to dbond. If you are against t-tar and don't know what set it is using, it is generally safer than encoring a CB tar's crunch or countering a DDtar's DD.

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Counter/Mirror Coat/Safeguard/Tickle. Event moves are likely to be unbanned.

I vote uber for the simple reason that it makes the definition of counter moot in most cases, meaning you have to go out of your way to beat it. This and the fact that due to its ability, anyone regardless of skill level can generally use it to take out at least one pokemon.