***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***

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It seems hard to believe that after so much time on the ladder, not everyone prepares for the eventuality (because, looking at the current statistics, it is far from a certainty) of having to handle Deoxys-E from time to time.

This would not even be up for debate if he wasn't a form of the absolute uber Deoxys, much like Garchomp would never have been allowed if he was legendary, but essentially, let us focus on the main point of it's power - it's speed. I agree, before his de-uberization, scarfed pokemon all around were running rampant - while they still are, it has lessened down a bit. This is, however, no reason at all to complain, since we do want a balanced metagame and not one full of scarfed hitters to begin with. He does not overcentralize the metagame, and he is just another threat you have to be prepared for: not uber.
 
Deoxys-S has enough speed to beat most scarfers. It also has a great move pool, ranging from offense to support and even walling, but it's Psychic type makes it have only two resists, no immunities and a Pursuit weakness. Deoxys-S wasn't the only people used TimidScarfGar, nor Bullet Punch Metagross. It just happens to be a way to deal with Deoxys-S. As for counters bulky steels come in mind such as Bullet Punch Metagross and defensively oriented Magnezone. Even Blissey can handle it if the user is smart and wastes one SuperPower lowering its Atk by paralyzing or sleeping it then switching to something else. Therefore I vote for Deoxys-S not uber.
 
Uber.

Consider this for an example to illustrate what others have said - I use a pure offensive team, say, Weavile, LOMixape, Gyarados, Garchomp, Starmie, Scarf Heracross.

Deoxys-E potentially 6-0s that team.

There is NO pokemon that can simply destroy an otherwise effective team, provided I play well. Garchomp would not 6-0 that team, unless it was the beneficiary of insane Sand Veil luck. Gyarados, Tyranitar, Infernape, etc. But I would lose to Deoxys-E no matter how well I played!

Oh sure, maybe there's stuff I can do; bring in Gyara on Superpower, switch around, waste Life Orb damage (oh right, it should really be running Expert Belt nvm) etc, but the basic fact remains is that I can't touch it! The only way I could touch it is that hypothetical Weavile had Ice Shard, etc, or if I had Stealth Rocks on the field, etc. If I happen to be using Yache Chomp I can tank a hit and OHKO back. But other than that, it's too fast for me to touch, and it hits all of my pokemon for 2HKOs or OHKOs.

Should one pokemon immediately put me into "desperation" mode where I always have to sacrifice something to win, irrespective of how the battle actually went?

As for counters bulky steels come in mind such as Bullet Punch Metagross and defensively oriented Magnezone.
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So now I have to put some plodding bulky steel that actually negates what I want to do with my team, just to stop one pokemon.

And even with your bulky steel, what about in the context of a team? Let's say I slap that bulky steel on my team. A smart Deoxys-E user would likely focus on eliminating that bulky steel, once he realized the offensive nature of my team. (notice that he could also put some specialized set like HP Fire Magnezone on his team which is death for most of the bulky steels you mention, except for a fast Metagross). Also, it's Pursuit weakness is pretty irrelevant, seeing as though the 2 best pursuiters in the game are 4x weak to Superpower (what's the point of Pursuit when the opposing pokemon has no reason to switch?)

Here's my overall point - if the existence of one pokemon suddenly makes a team that was originally very viable against the other threats in the game unviable, is the problem the team or the one pokemon? I'd say it's that one pokemon.
 
just another bit i have to say.

there seems to be a lot of consensus that deoxys-s ruins the metagame by making scarfers irrelevant, or giving them a much harder time, but i would argue that this is no more game breaking than scarf itself. it actually balances things back out to stats and movepool, which are really much more core to the game. sure, it's kind of lame that you can't expect to slap a scarf on anything and have it outspeed everything, but i kind of prefer it that way. it makes item selection less haphazard than it was in the initial stages of d/p. deoxys makes you think just a little bit more, but this isn't a bad thing. it's definitely a jack of all trades, master of none (or maybe master of few, but whatever).

just my two cents.
 
Choice Scarf spells death for most Scarfers already, like IPL said. Most Pokemon have to run a lot of defense to counter it. It has also made many teams get a weakness. What do I mean? If you had a very solid team from the past, you probaly now have a Deoxys-e weakness. It really becomes a guessing game to stall it out. Sure, you can try using Bronzong or Jirachi, but Deoxys-e's movepool is so great that it even gets Fire Punch / Hidden Power Fire for them. My answer? Uber.
 
Ancien Régime said:
So now I have to put some plodding bulky steel that actually negates what I want to do with my team, just to stop one pokemon.

And even with your bulky steel, what about in the context of a team? Let's say I slap that bulky steel on my team. A smart Deoxys-E user would likely focus on eliminating that bulky steel, once he realized the offensive nature of my team. (notice that he could also put some specialized set like HP Fire Magnezone on his team which is death for most of the bulky steels you mention, except for a fast Metagross). Also, it's Pursuit weakness is pretty irrelevant, seeing as though the 2 best pursuiters in the game are 4x weak to Superpower (what's the point of Pursuit when the opposing pokemon has no reason to switch?)

Here's my overall point - if the existence of one pokemon suddenly makes a team that was originally very viable against the other threats in the game unviable, is the problem the team or the one pokemon? I'd say it's that one pokemon.
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sorry i didn't read you entire post but you were talking about garchomp right?
and if a team used a perfect strategy to kill the counter of it's main sweeper then it's my opinion that this player deserve to win because he was able to accomplish his main strategy.
 
After Deoxys-S has been Unbanned I have used it on most of my teams.
In the past I usually have one pokemon that I resurve for cleaning up at the end of a battle. My favorites were CB Azumarril and CS Garchomp. In the end I chose CB Azumarril b/c it had a great priority attack in Aqua Jet and I could boost the power of it with Rain Dance. However, after I used Deoxys-S I have never used either of them again. The simple life orb set can sweep any team that Azumarril could, and team Garchomp could and then some. The freedom to switch attacks and the amazing speed was brutally efficent. It feels almost like im cheating or something.

People have mentioned bulky sweepers and steel/psychic types for countering Deoxys-S but if you are using it for a late game sweep, you should have them below 50% health anyway.

People have also asked, why should you hide Deoxys-S? You hide your Deoxys so your opponent will bring out their Bronzong/Metagross earlier to take hits from your other pokes. If your opponent knows that you have Deoxys-S they will keep their bulky pokes at better health so that they are actually able to counter Deoxys-S.

Since I liked Deoxys-S but I didn't like the cheating feeling I was getting with the Life Orb set, I decided to try something different with it. After checking out the analysis I saw the Cosmic Wall set. I thought that it was simply a little gimmick that would be cool for a few laughs. But I think that it is nearly as broken as Tickle Wobb was. When you switch in Deoxys for the first time, your opponent will switch to their bulky steel or tank with a recovery move. As they switch use Cosmic Power. Their first hit will hit your for less then 50% damage. Then you use taunt. That means if they wanted to status you (crippling any Deoxys-S) they cant and they can no longer use an healing move. If they used a stats move then you get another turn to use Cosmic Power. Now your opponent starts to worry, if they attack with their Deoxys counter now you can get a third or fourth cosmic power before you need to think about recovering off the damage. If they switch you get a free cosmic power anyway. After your third cosmic power a T-Tar crunch or a Weevile Night Slash cant 2HKO you. That means you can get yet another cosmic power before you have to recover. Always have a toxic spiker on my Stalling Deoxys-S team so chances are your opponent is taking multiple turns of toxic damage while they cant even hurt you. The only way to kill a Stalling Deoxys-s after it has set up (which it will 90% of the time) is with a critical hit, getting a status from an added effect (body slam is the worst), or using gengar when Deoxys has SToss or a Normal/Flying Type when Deoxys has Night Shade. Deoxys can still PP Gengar's Shadow Ball but it wont be able to hurt it btw.

So in conclusion, Deoxys-S should not be in OU. It's "predictable" set is nearly impossible to counter late game and its not even limited to that set.
 
Ancien Régime said:
Uber.

Consider this for an example to illustrate what others have said - I use a pure offensive team, say, Weavile, LOMixape, Gyarados, Garchomp, Starmie, Scarf Heracross.

Deoxys-E potentially 6-0s that team.

There is NO pokemon that can simply destroy an otherwise effective team, provided I play well. Garchomp would not 6-0 that team, unless it was the beneficiary of insane Sand Veil luck. Gyarados, Tyranitar, Infernape, etc. But I would lose to Deoxys-E no matter how well I played!
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Because you are weak to it. =/ Really, no one cares what team you ran and the fact that it was unprepared for Deoxys. That doesn't make it uber. Throw in a LO Restalkgross. Still offensive enough, and deoxys is covered. No I'm not saying every offensive team should have metagross. But you can't complain it beats your team so it's uber, if you're doing nothing to resist it.

And even with your bulky steel, what about in the context of a team? Let's say I slap that bulky steel on my team. A smart Deoxys-E user would likely focus on eliminating that bulky steel, once he realized the offensive nature of my team. (notice that he could also put some specialized set like HP Fire Magnezone on his team which is death for most of the bulky steels you mention, except for a fast Metagross). Also, it's Pursuit weakness is pretty irrelevant, seeing as though the 2 best pursuiters in the game are 4x weak to Superpower (what's the point of Pursuit when the opposing pokemon has no reason to switch?)

Here's my overall point - if the existence of one pokemon suddenly makes a team that was originally very viable against the other threats in the game unviable, is the problem the team or the one pokemon? I'd say it's that one pokemon.
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A smart SD Lucario user would also eliminate Gliscor before trying to sweep. Any sweeper can have the team pick off a counter to sweep. Deoxys is no exeption. There are a ton of pokemon that can run a different set and become virtually uncounterable. Lucario and Garchomp for sure. But even electrivire can run different sets to beat almost anything.

My shit has got ruin by many many pursuiters. I've seen a LO Gross with Pursuit since Deoxys has been around. And iirc, Tyranitar with max HP can survive one Superpower and kill with pursuit, whether he switches or not. That might need checked, though.

And the team. Like obi said. If garchomp, lucario, gengar or blissey were banned then suddenly unbanned, shit would change too.
 
Logann said:
Because you are weak to it. =/ Really, no one cares what team you ran and the fact that it was unprepared for Deoxys. That doesn't make it uber. Throw in a LO Restalkgross. Still offensive enough, and deoxys is covered. No I'm not saying every offensive team should have metagross. But you can't complain it beats your team so it's uber, if you're doing nothing to resist it.


A smart SD Lucario user would also eliminate Gliscor before trying to sweep. Any sweeper can have the team pick off a counter to sweep. Deoxys is no exeption. There are a ton of pokemon that can run a different set and become virtually uncounterable. Lucario and Garchomp for sure. But even electrivire can run different sets to beat almost anything.
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You're not understanding this at all. What he (and others) is saying is that Deoxys-S eliminates that entire style of team. If you didn't notice, before Deoxys-S was unbanned, teams like his example were used everywhere. With the unbanning of Deoxys-S, look at what happens to them. They're just a liability. That's what he's saying. Having to add a bulky Metagross, Jirachi, Bronzong, ect. just to make sure that his team doesn't get completely destroyed by 1 pokemon detracts from the style of play of the team. There's a difference between bulky offense (which you suggested) and sweeper offense (the example). Before Deoxys-S, both forms were just as viable, Deoxys-S eliminated that.

My shit has got ruin by many many pursuiters. I've seen a LO Gross with Pursuit since Deoxys has been around. And iirc, Tyranitar with max HP can survive one Superpower and kill with pursuit, whether he switches or not. That might need checked, though.
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Code: 
267 attack vs 256 defense, 120 power(*4*1.3), 404 max HP: 116.83% - 137.62%
 
267 attack vs 350 defense, 120 power(*4*1.3), 404 max HP: 85.15% - 100.25%

I include Max/Min and Max/Max for you.
 
I vote for not über. It may have a large movepool and decent stats (pokes towards gyara, t-tar, mence...), but only his speed is truely massive, whilst the others are decent. He was only ever an über due to the fact he was called Deoxys (a rose by any other name is just as sweet), and even then I can remember it being described as "King of mediocre". He is certainly versatile, great late-game, and we can't foget FAST!!!.

My final word is he should remain an OU, not returning to the übers.
 
Wayff said:
Choice Scarf spells death for most Scarfers already, like IPL said. Most Pokemon have to run a lot of defense to counter it. It has also made many teams get a weakness. What do I mean? If you had a very solid team from the past, you probaly now have a Deoxys-e weakness. It really becomes a guessing game to stall it out. Sure, you can try using Bronzong or Jirachi, but Deoxys-e's movepool is so great that it even gets Fire Punch / Hidden Power Fire for them. My answer? Uber.
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And if Garchomp had been uber and then suddenly got unbanned, everyone would have a Garchomp weakness, especially those with Gravity teams. Adjust.

If it carries HP Fire/Fire Punch, it loses a moveslot, and gains more counters.
 
Jumpman16 said:
You are going to have to do better than that, in my opinion, because the only thing here that isn't appealing to a previous post has already been addressed: why is curbing Choice Scarf use a bad thing?


Here are some statistics you guys are going to have a tough time writing off.

Of the top OU pokemon in December 2007, the last month before Deoxys-S:
  • Blissey (56445215 points)
  • Garchomp (48969247 points)
  • Gengar (47210300 points)
  • Gyarados (40376718 points)
  • Tyranitar (39969044 points)
  • Infernape (35691877 points)
  • Salamence (32224350 points)
  • Metagross (32207375 points)
  • Cresselia (32110627 points)
  • Heatran (30859801 points)
  • Weavile (30232692 points)
  • Swampert (30186353 points)
  • Bronzong (28521378 points)
  • Starmie (27301476 points)
  • Skarmory (27238903 points)
  • Lucario (26432506 points)
  • Forretress (26006614 points)
  • Gliscor (25726966 points)
  • Breloom (25024670 points)
  • Heracross (23514414 points)
The bolded pokemon were "arguably" the most popular pokemon that used a Scarf. Fast forward to the latest weighted stats we have, May's:
  • Garchomp (54486271 points)
  • Gengar (44895630 points)
  • Blissey (43662002 points)
  • Gyarados (40781829 points)
  • Tyranitar (40712470 points)
  • Bronzong (38561213 points)
  • Lucario (33603937 points)
  • Heatran (32296203 points)
  • Infernape (28406707 points)
  • Salamence (28394085 points)
  • Metagross (27920032 points)
  • Starmie (27255382 points)
  • Celebi (26153363 points)
  • Gliscor (25461777 points)
  • Swampert (22437398 points)
  • Skarmory (21329419 points)
  • Weavile (20984195 points)
  • Forretress (20392752 points)
  • Heracross (20076600 points)
  • Zapdos (17840217 points)
Again, the bolded pokemon are "arguably" the most popular pokemon that used a Scarf. In this case, the numbers really don't lie. Garchomp has gone from #2 to #1. Gengar has gone from #3 to #2. Tyranitar has maintained at #5. Heatran has gone from #10 to #8. Lucario has jumped a full nine spots from #16 to #7. And finally, Heracross went from #20 to #19.

The only "pokemon counterargument" would be Metagross, who was #8 in December and #11 in May, but dubious popularity with a Scarf aside, one could cite Garchomp's increasing ridiculousness and Bronzong's jump from #13 to #6 in that time period as reasons Metagross usage has fallen. Another counterargument would be for for pokemon like Medicham, but I would counter that with: if a pokemon itself cannot perform well in standard without a Scarf, how viable was that pokemon in the first place?

Therefore, it is simple—in no case has the usage of a pokemon that carries a Choice Scarf gone down. This says two things. One, these pokemon are maybe still using Choice Scarves just as much (not likely), or two...guess what? It doesn't matter if their "ability" to use a Choice Scarf has gone down, because they are very literally all more popular now than they were without DX-S in the picture. This means that their dependence on a Choice Scarf as far as their viability was concerned is virtually nonexistent. So, the question very literally is: who cares if DX-S has curbed Choice Scarf, assuming it really has? The pokemon sure haven't, and nor have the trainers using them in the last half year.
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Oh, I'd definitely say that each and every one of those Pokemon you bolded have gone down in use with a Choice Scarf, with the exception of Gengar which is using Choice Scarf more than December due to Deoxys-E and Garchomp as it is one of the few "SD Garchomp counters" that can get around its Yache Berry. I never claimed that not being desirable to use a Scarf makes bad Pokemon out of any of them, all great Pokemon in their own right, but it just serves to stifle the ways in which they can be used on offensive teams. Sure, ScarfHeatran can counter SD Lucario (which is the most popular set by far, followed by SpecsLuke) which Deoxys-E can't, but outside of that, it doesn't have the ability to revenge things nearly as well as Deoxys-E with its higher speed and ability to change attacks on the fly, therefore preventing setup. Choice Scarf is an item that has a risk to its reward, chiefly, allowing other Pokemon a chance to set up on your locked move, and forgoing any ways of boosting your attack. Deoxys-E is a Pokemon that does not require such a risk to use, making it detrimental to everything that Smogon is trying to do (maximize skill.) Since Choice Scarf usage has effectively been curbed by Deoxys-E, that's one less otherwise strategic, viable choice for trainers out there.
 
Re: Agility sweepers v. Deoxys.

In a good old-style offensive team, it's relatively your own fault if you let something set up. Etc. seems to be completely ignoring the stronger and set-up free perks of using Deoxys over an Agility sweeper.
 
Jumpman16 said:
Here are some statistics you guys are going to have a tough time writing off.

Of the top OU pokemon in December 2007, the last month before Deoxys-S:
  • Blissey (56445215 points)
  • Garchomp (48969247 points)
  • Gengar (47210300 points)
  • Gyarados (40376718 points)
  • Tyranitar (39969044 points)
  • Infernape (35691877 points)
  • Salamence (32224350 points)
  • Metagross (32207375 points)
  • Cresselia (32110627 points)
  • Heatran (30859801 points)
  • Weavile (30232692 points)
  • Swampert (30186353 points)
  • Bronzong (28521378 points)
  • Starmie (27301476 points)
  • Skarmory (27238903 points)
  • Lucario (26432506 points)
  • Forretress (26006614 points)
  • Gliscor (25726966 points)
  • Breloom (25024670 points)
  • Heracross (23514414 points)
The bolded pokemon were "arguably" the most popular pokemon that used a Scarf. Fast forward to the latest weighted stats we have, May's:
  • Garchomp (54486271 points)
  • Gengar (44895630 points)
  • Blissey (43662002 points)
  • Gyarados (40781829 points)
  • Tyranitar (40712470 points)
  • Bronzong (38561213 points)
  • Lucario (33603937 points)
  • Heatran (32296203 points)
  • Infernape (28406707 points)
  • Salamence (28394085 points)
  • Metagross (27920032 points)
  • Starmie (27255382 points)
  • Celebi (26153363 points)
  • Gliscor (25461777 points)
  • Swampert (22437398 points)
  • Skarmory (21329419 points)
  • Weavile (20984195 points)
  • Forretress (20392752 points)
  • Heracross (20076600 points)
  • Zapdos (17840217 points)
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Sorry Jump, but I'm going to have to agree with IPL on this one. Out of all of those bolded pokemon, I'm going to have to say that Gengar is the only one listed that is still used regularly with a Choice Scarf set.

Garchomp's most popular set is SD Yache, there is no contest. Other variants such as SD Salac, and Swords Dance in general prevail, not Choice Scarf.

Tyranitar at the moment is most popular with Choice Band (both max attack, and special defensive sets), Dragon Dance, and Mixtar. Choice Scarf has dropped to the back of Tyranitar's mind.

Lucario was never a very popular choice scarf user, and in December, SD Life Orb Lucario was (and still is) running rampant. This is by far the most popular Lucario set, followed by Choice Specs.

Heatran has grown in popularity from ResTalk and Choice Specs sets, but I will say that out of everything you've listed (besides Gengar of course) it is probably the only remaining pokemon that a scarf is semi-popular on. But like I said, ResTalk is the most prevailing build here now (which fits right into the bulky offense game that DP has become).

Heracross has been seeing a lot more SD action recently, but CB is still the #1 used set that I see everywhere. Choice Scarf on Heracross is almost redundant, because everything aims for 270+ speed.

And is it a coincidence that on you list, the only pokemon that outspeeds Deoxys-S while holding a Choice Scarf is Gengar, and Gengar is the only pokemon that a Scarf is still common on? All of the others that you've bolded have moved to other sets, because they still can't outspeed Deoxys-S even with that boost. Not only that, but Deoxys-S hits them all for SE damage (and OHKO's them all, except for Heatran who takes a hefty 75%-89% from Superpower). I really wish we had statistics on items for these pokemon so I could prove my point 100%, but right now I can only give you my observations from playing over the last 5 months.
 
IggyBot said:
You're not understanding this at all. What he (and others) is saying is that Deoxys-S eliminates that entire style of team. If you didn't notice, before Deoxys-S was unbanned, teams like his example were used everywhere. With the unbanning of Deoxys-S, look at what happens to them. They're just a liability. That's what he's saying. Having to add a bulky Metagross, Jirachi, Bronzong, ect. just to make sure that his team doesn't get completely destroyed by 1 pokemon detracts from the style of play of the team. There's a difference between bulky offense (which you suggested) and sweeper offense (the example). Before Deoxys-S, both forms were just as viable, Deoxys-S eliminated that.
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Not really. You can still have full offensive teams. But one slot have to be bulky offense. A lot of teams have one anyway. I'm 100% fine with that. D/P is offensive enough, anyway.
 
Logann said:
Not really. You can still have full offensive teams. But one slot have to be bulky offense. A lot of teams have one anyway. I'm 100% fine with that. D/P is offensive enough, anyway.
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You just proved my point. I really don't know what else to say.
 
Deoxys-E is a bit... odd. It has tons of options to use at its disposal, and can be a large threat. However, people have to remember, while it can have a LO set, or the Cosmic Wall set, it only has ONE set at a time. It has all these options, but it only gets 4 moveslots, just like everything else.

The Cosmic wall set only usually has 1 offensive move (If it's not Toxic..) and honestly, if it uses Night Shade then something like Snorlax can just come in and Crunch it, and Crunch does have that chance to lower defense, so Deoxys will be going down eventually. If it opts for Seismic Toss, Ghosts can get in scott free. Did I mention Perish Trappers can be very effective against this set? And if it uses Toxic for some reason, then Steel's are unscathed. This just makes Deoxys pointless, and it can get PP stalled out of its moves. No matter what 4th option it picks, something makes it useless.

The mixed sweeper set is dangerous, but honestly, can be countered. Bronzong/Spiritomb/Cresselia are all solid counters, as are many other steel types, and thats a good thing. Some pokemon in OU don't even have such reliable counters and they are still OU, so why shouldn't Deoxys-E? It CAN opt for something like Fire punch to hit steels harder, or Shadow Ball for Cress, but then it loses coverage against things like Salamence/Garchomp who can then come in for a free set up.

I've also used Deoxys-E for myself... and it can have serious problems. It CAN'T get by the above mentioned counters easily (Or at all in some cases), and I've only swept up poorly built teams. Any well-built team is usually able to handle Deoxys-E. Heck, paralysis completely ruins it... and while this is true for any sweeper, it also applies to Deoxys, meaning it is no GOD of pokemon, it falls to status just like any other sweeper, so you don't have to go too far out of your way to counter it. Also, Life Orb recoil can take its toll, giving a priority user (Mamoswine, maybe even Dusknoir) yet another opportunity to come in and go for the KO. Sure, it can get Wish passed onto it, or aromatherapy can be used on it too, but that applies to every pokemon, not just Deoxys.

True, offensive teams can be absolutely murdered by it, however, honestly, couldn't something like Electivire handle it? Thunderbolt becomes useless, its base 95 Special defense should be able to take special hits in order to hit Doexys back hard, then you just need to get in a priority attack to KO it. Offensive teams sacrifice pokemon all the time anyways, so why should it be different for Deoxys?

And for the record, Ninjask can just protect against one of Deoxys-E's attacks for a speed boost to make it FASTER than Deoxys... then OHKO it with X-Scissor. See, even Baton Pass teams have a method of dealing with the thing.

In the end, I'm going to have to say Deoxys-E is OU, it's not impossible to stop, and honestly you don't have to go too far out of your way (If at all) to stop or cripple it, I just don't see it being too much for OU right now with all those ways that it can be handled.
 
Theres nothing stopping you from using an all offensive sweep style team, but you have to accept a Deoxys weak or work around it. =/
Run Dugtrio.

Theres tons of pokemon that can murder another type of team but we don't mind it. CM Clefable can destroy stall teams. We don't mind it.
 
Logann said:
Not really. You can still have full offensive teams. But one slot have to be bulky offense. A lot of teams have one anyway. I'm 100% fine with that. D/P is offensive enough, anyway.
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So I have to have "bulk" for the sole purpose of countering ONE pokemon?

Read.

ONE POKEMON.

Basically what you're saying is "Deoxys-E is there, deal with it" without even considering what effect it may or may not have.

work around it
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Guess what? You can't work around it! It outspeeds every pokemon in the game other than Scarf Timid Gengar and hits 72% of OU super-effective. That's pretty easy to work around with an offensive team, huh.

Run Dugtrio
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What if Dugtrio doesn't help my team beyond Deoxys-E? See, "synergy". Slapping pokemon on a team for the sole purpose of countering one pokemon is NOT a solution.

Dude. I don't even *run* pure offense most of the time. My best team was a stall team. I don't have a *bias* in terms of my play style. The existence of Deoxys-E *helps* me by forcing everyone to slow the game down!

random people in thread said:
Bronzong/Spiritomb/Cresselia are solid counters
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That's not the point.

We get that those are solid counters. But no other pokemon, not even Garchomp, forces you to use *solid counters* 100% of the time. I can use CB Weavile with Ice Punch, weaken Garchomp and finish with HP Ice Infernape (and of course it KOs after a Nasty Plot), use Ice Fang Gyara to dent it, and so forth. I can win against Garchomp/Salamence/Tyranitar with an offensive team, no problem. I cannot do so with Deoxys-E.
 
While certainly strong I feel that Deoxys-E is widely counterable. Although it does have the downside of taking the "Slap CS on anything and win" strategy and countering it solidly.

But outside of godly speed, it feels average, will perferm acceptably, but not outright force every team to consider it strongly as say, garchomp.

Its threat is not so large that while it has to be considered, it's not a centralizing force. I vote for Deoxys-E to be OU.
 
Deoxys-E is Uber. It may not be the best Uber and it may be killable in OU, but it tips the scales a little too much against offense and hurts too many viable pokemon. It's speed makes it virtually impossible to revenge kill and its power is nothing to scoff at. Could it fit into OU? Maybe. Does it belong there? I don't think so. Tough call, but I still vote that it goes back to Uber.
 
Logann said:
Theres nothing stopping you from using an all offensive sweep style team, but you have to accept a Deoxys weak or work around it. =/
Run Dugtrio.

Theres tons of pokemon that can murder another type of team but we don't mind it. CM Clefable can destroy stall teams. We don't mind it.
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The thing is, Deoxys-S completely eliminates that type of team. Dugtrio doesn't fit into these teams well, but I'm assuming you've never played one or you would know that.

And to correct your last paragraph, CM Clefable can destroy Obi's stall team. This may be contradictory to what I said above, but Deoxys-S truely does destroys all sweeping offensive teams, and there is literally nothing you can do about it.

Gemerl said:
True, offensive teams can be absolutely murdered by it, however, honestly, couldn't something like Electivire handle it? Thunderbolt becomes useless, its base 95 Special defense should be able to take special hits in order to hit Doexys back hard, then you just need to get in a priority attack to KO it. Offensive teams sacrifice pokemon all the time anyways, so why should it be different for Deoxys?
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Electivire is hit for 61.51% - 72.16% from Psychic, and 94.5% - 111% from Psycho Boost. Yes, offensive teams sacrifice pokemon all the time. But with Deoxys-S, you have to sacrifice one pokemon, then another, then another, and another....
 
I've had teams without any of those pokemon, and I wasn't swept by Deoxys. He does NOT take things from 100 to 0. So you can get hits in until he dies like you say you can to Garchomp. I don't see how Deoxys is worse than Garchomp like you say. He does have actual counters. He can be wittled down. I don't even see offense teams being screwed a little a bad thing, though either. =/
 
Logann said:
I've had teams without any of those pokemon, and I wasn't swept by Deoxys. He does NOT take things from 100 to 0. So you can get hits in until he dies like you say you can to Garchomp. I don't see how Deoxys is worse than Garchomp like you say. He does have actual counters. He can be wittled down. I don't even see offense teams being screwed a little a bad thing, though either. =/
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He takes things from 75%-60% to 0% with very little you can do about it.

And your last statement reflects a strong bias.

So now you have to keep your entire team at full health (i.e in an all out stall team) to prevent yourself from losing to Deoxys-E. Awesome!
 
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