Safeguard makes this point moot. In fact, Will-o-Wisping might just be the most dangerous thing to do; it brings in Gyarados for free.
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***[VOTE] The final Wobbuffet "discussion" thread***
- Thread starter imperfectluck
- Start date
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Safeguard makes this point moot. In fact, Will-o-Wisping might just be the most dangerous thing to do; it brings in Gyarados for free.
Agreeing with SubVersion. Alot of people refuse to use Wobbuffet, which does alter the statistics. Also, can you please teach me how to 'prepare' for him? Unless you're definition of prepare is Toxic Spikes in which case can be removed, or potentially a U-Turn team with a Ghost on it.
Now I go to SpecsTran and Fire Blast which could potentially 2HKO Blissey and takes a huge chunk out of Starmie and Vaporeon.
So it doesn't die. Now you let something else set up on you and you still lose something. As well, after encore ends like you said. You roost, I now encore. I now deplete the availability to recover off damage and thus you are basically a walking dead man.
Wobbuffet should go back to Ubers; it is a Pokemon that guarantees at least one kill or one crucial setup for another Pokemon. Although it has no healing move; Pokemon die trying to take it out. It usually takes multiple Pokemon to take it out, and even though you can say that about some other Pokemon, Wobbuffet is lethal and can control the game with its trapping ability along with Encore.
I fail to see why we can't assume Wobba isn't running that much Speed EVs. I run exactly that many Speed EVs, and it's never detracted from Wobba's ability to take hits enough to the point where it isn't viable. And even if we can't assume that, let's say we are now. But do tell, what would you do next? I guess send in your Celebi/Cresselia/Porygon2 since it's easy to have a team full of Gyara counters (all of which are weak to Wobba with the exception of Celebi btw).
You're half-right. Wobba would beat Gliscor by countering Knock Off some of the time but not all of the time. A no-attack Gliscor (this is the best possible scenario for you since you are trying to do the least amount of damage possible) will do 31 - 36 HP to a 6 HP Bold Max Def Wobba, (which is also a best case scenario, considering many Wobba users will run all that Speed detracting from their defensive capabilities), meaning you will be taking 62 - 72 damage a turn. Over the course of 5 turns, you will have taken anywhere from 310 - 360 (not adding in Leftovers gain, which is around 22 HP a turn, meaning you have really taken 200 - 250, so yes, you will survive this absolute best-case scenario). Keep in mind that that was a 5 turns. 8 turns would you almost always die if I did the math correctly (unless you get the least amount of damage several times). 7 turns is more in your favor to be fair, but the Wobba user still has about a 20-80 shot at winning.
And that was a best case scenario. Gliscor will usually be running at least some offense, and Wobba will almost never be running that much defense when he can use the Speed EVs better.
So it is acceptable not to make it Uber just because you can handle him. Don't worry about the rest of the community, evidently they don't matter. As for prediction, it would take some superhuman feat to even predict him coming in, if you havn't seen him before. Even if you know he's there what's to stop your opponent making a sacrifice and then using him to gaurentee a kill on your most important Pokémon. No matter how well you play, there's no way to stop that from happening. Also you seem to have overlooked tickle, which when combined with pursuit is a gaurenteed kill on something after you have encored their non-damaging attack. Then there's also destiny bond, the bane of mixed sweepers and Pokémon with variable movesets.
Personally, I think Wobbuffet is Uber. Not only is he a gaurenteed kill against something critical, he makes the game less fun. At the end of the day, we play Pokémon to enjoy ourselves, not to make money and Wobbuffet ruins the game by bringing it to a halt whenever he is switched in.
Uber.
If you don't know why, let me restate it: it completely halts the match to the will of the user. This is dangerous to defensive and offensive teams alike: getting encores during spiking or having your only revenge killer easily knocked out puts you in the bad side of many things. Not to mention that it can even be used to force certain opponents to struggle to death.
If you don't know why, let me restate it: it completely halts the match to the will of the user. This is dangerous to defensive and offensive teams alike: getting encores during spiking or having your only revenge killer easily knocked out puts you in the bad side of many things. Not to mention that it can even be used to force certain opponents to struggle to death.
I vote Wobbuffet to be Uber again.
I will not bother to voice the reasoning as basically every conceivable point has been made, and honestly it seems like no one is going to change their mind so I see little point in debating as opposed to just voting. Every case on both sides has been made, I doubt anyone will read the thread and change based on what so and so said.
I will not bother to voice the reasoning as basically every conceivable point has been made, and honestly it seems like no one is going to change their mind so I see little point in debating as opposed to just voting. Every case on both sides has been made, I doubt anyone will read the thread and change based on what so and so said.
I have to agree with everybody else here, Wobbufet should return to the übers. I won't go on about no counters, because it's been done too many times before. He almost always KOs at least 1 poke per match, unless he's poisoned and stalled out, or something like a CB Heracross Megahorns it (not sure is he needs to have guts active). Whenever I go against woby, all I think is "oh great, how am I gonna do this?". I normally lose somebody, but I feel better when he's gone, so I'll be even happier when he's returned to the übers (oops, getting ahead of myself).
Please return him to the übers.
Please return him to the übers.
Personally, I find the 'You can beat it with prediction' argument to be flawed in the sense that the same can be said for ANY Pokemon. However, the problem I see with Wobbuffet is that he makes the game TOO predictable because he can afford to do the same thing when he comes in almost all of the time. The game becomes "mechanical" and using Wobb becomes a matter of just "running through the motions." This is not the way I would want Pokemon to be played.
By the way, if I were you, I would try to avoid the 'He makes the game less fun' argument. Though several of us play the game because we enjoy it, level of enjoyment isn't really a valid reason for banning something, even though it may be a side effect of the true reason.
(I need to learn to type faster...)
By the way, if I were you, I would try to avoid the 'He makes the game less fun' argument. Though several of us play the game because we enjoy it, level of enjoyment isn't really a valid reason for banning something, even though it may be a side effect of the true reason.
(I need to learn to type faster...)
I've got to agree with you wholeheartedly. Wobbuffet just removes skill from the game. It's the same thing every time. Every time I use Wobbuffet, it just proves to be a mechanical killing machine that either picks off an opposing wall, set up a devastating sweeper of my own, or both. And I've never made a single prediction when using Wobbuffet.
Kyu said:
Honestly, if you had read ANY of this thread before hand, you'll know exactly why you can not compare Dugtrio/Magnezone to Wobbuffet. But since you decided not to do so, the reasons can be found here. There are also similar posts in Inside Scoop, so if you think I'm biased, go ahead and look them up.
Wobbuffet DOES remove skill, not for the entire match, but for the time that it is in the match (and the turn after). If both players are predicting when Wobbuffet is going to come in, it turns into a guessing game, not a prediction game.
Lyfsaho said:
Like others have said, this isn't Serebii, and this vote was brought on by the players of this community who happen to be the premiere players of the game.
Well of course not, how do you propose Wobbuffet is to centralize the game? It's not possible to prepare for it, and it's not overpowering in the way Garchomp is. Wobbuffet makes other pokemon stronger. I talked with chaos about this yesterday. Yes, I agree that Wobbuffet should be used more, however your statistics are skewed because of the number of players simply refusing to use Wobbuffet at all.
Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Mewtwo, Dialga, Deoxys-A, Deoxys, Deoxys-D, Palkia, Giratina, Lugia, do you really want me to go on?
How can you sit there and tell me that NO valid arguments have been brought up? Saying that Wobbuffet detracts from strategy and skill isn't valid? I don't think that your statistics arugment applies in this case (for reasons above), but that's something I've seen brought up quite a bit recently.
I bring Wobbuffet into Starmie. They use whatever move, I Encore. If it's Rapid Spin or Recover, I can PP stall them, or set my own pokemon up. If they attaked, I mirror coat. This is just one example out of many. How does that take skill?
umbarsc said:
Both sides can predict, it goes both ways. If you start predicting when Wobbuffet is coming, what's to stop them from predicting that, and not sending Wobbuffet? This just turns everything into a guessing game.
This is all still theorymon, but you can just as easily switch out after Encoring.
You still haven't shown me, or anyone else where this is true.
Lyfsaho said:
I don't see how you can still resort to statistics as your main argument here, because Wobbuffet can not centralize. It makes other pokemon stronger. I asked this yesterday as well. Can't a pokemon be a centralizing force, and not be the most used? Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to say that Wobbuffet has centralized the game, I agree with you that it hasn't. But that isn't grounds for keeping it OU, because Wobbuffet is unique compared to every other pokemon we would apply these statistics to.
As for SubVersion's 3rd point, it is not a personal assumption considering the number of players that have come right out and said they don't like Wobbuffet and won't use it.
Lyfsaho said:
All of the examples that you've given where Wobbuffet "didn't" do anything so far have all be theorymon, and not good examples at that. I think Pulses post does this justice.
Except you cannot assume that he didn't invest in speed, so stop with all of this situational crap. The one thing that I can say for sure, in ANY situation when my Wobbuffet gets statused by my opponent: I am encoring that status, using Safeguard, and switching out. Now you can't touch my stat upper. This is not theorymon at all, because it is what happens every time Wobbuffet gets hit with a status move.
You say that the community has no reasons to ban Wobbuffet, but more importantly (considering you are them minority right now), you have given the community no reasons to keep it OU. You have called out "80%" of the user base, and used nothing but theorymon situations to support your answer, and these situations weren't even good examples. Please show us, what do you really have, besides usless statistics and theorymon, to support Wobbuffet staying in OU?
IIRC, Garchomp is also being contemplated for Uber.
I'd love to see Dugtrio attempt to do what Wobbuffet does with its pitiful defenses and base 80 attack. Dugtrio can barely switch in on anything, thus restricting it to acting solely as a revenge killer and nothing more.
The thing is, Wobbuffet doesn't even need attack moves to ravage an opponent's strategy with the greatest of ease. I realize that the goal of a team is to hinder your opponent's strategy and promote your own, but Wobbuffet does that more easily and more quickly than anything else. Even when I've been on the losing end of a match, the tables always turned when I sent out Wobba because then, one of their walls is magically gone and I've got a powerful sweeper already set up. And the worst part is that I used next to no skill to accomplish that.
I'd love to see Dugtrio attempt to do what Wobbuffet does with its pitiful defenses and base 80 attack. Dugtrio can barely switch in on anything, thus restricting it to acting solely as a revenge killer and nothing more.
The thing is, Wobbuffet doesn't even need attack moves to ravage an opponent's strategy with the greatest of ease. I realize that the goal of a team is to hinder your opponent's strategy and promote your own, but Wobbuffet does that more easily and more quickly than anything else. Even when I've been on the losing end of a match, the tables always turned when I sent out Wobba because then, one of their walls is magically gone and I've got a powerful sweeper already set up. And the worst part is that I used next to no skill to accomplish that.
If you had read my posts, I repeatedly stated that theorymon wasn't going to help us at all, and I just answered specific points on the matter because they were false. I do not consider theorymon a way to solve anything, much less such a dispute, hence why I will only adress the part of your post which doesn't concern it.
That I am in the minority should be irrelevant. I don't know when Smogon turned into a democracy, but as far as I remembered, it wasn't one. All that matters is the quality and evidence of the arguments provided by both sides.
Useless statistics? Statistics are the Tier System. What you listed as pokemon which were not determined this way is simply a list of all Ubers which were presumed to be too powerful for OU to begin with, and thus a testing period was considered a huge waste of time. I reiterate, no OU pokemon was ever moved anywhere based on anything besides statistical and empirical evidence.
That you choose to ignore this because of pure personal preferance is astonishing. I hate Breloom, he has Spore, nothing slower than Breloom can evade Spore, let's make it Uber. You refute theorymon and statistical evidence as arguments: What else is there?
Wobbuffet is uber.
Take that, lyfsaho!
Take that, lyfsaho!
Do us a favor and cut us the bullshit. Are you seriously accusing 80% of our badgeholders of "theorymonning" while you aren't?
Want to know a very fun fact?
"Overcentralization"(whatever that means) implying a Pokemon is uber is theorymon.
Definition of what an "uber" should be is theorymon.
Using theories based only on statistics that haven't been tested is theorymon.
In the meanwhile you're accusing all of us who have significant battling experience with the Pokemon in one way or another of theorymonning? What are you trying to say?
Considering you're flaunting the word around like it's a very nicely defined word, why don't you enlighten all of us what overcentralizing means and implies, and draw the exact lines so it's not a subjective definition? How does the fact that "it's not overcentralizing" even counteract all the people who is not using that definition as the reason it should be banned? Oh... wait.. those commoners (some which, are moderators and badgeholders) are just theorymonning. Ironic how you're signed up to those same badgeholders in order to get tutored, huh?
The fact is that every definition is simply a theory on how the game might work. Since we haven't gotten around to fully test what "overcentralization" because there are a trillion lines to draw, this is what needs to be done. Everyone has different lines and different tolerance levels when it comes to things and this is why, by voting, we can at least make some decision. You yourself are using theory without knowing
Thanks for telling us that you think of Stark Mountain as credible as Serebii.net forum. I should infract you here and there for insulting forum members and trolling but since this is a debate, I'll be nice. You are being (oh the irony) an ignorant elitist here - I would argue that elitists in the most cases are right but when it comes to subjective arguments such as this you have zero right to tell everyone their arguments are trash and yours are not, especially since your argument is riddled with fallacies and assumptions and in the end, your personal opinion. You're not better than us, no matter how much you seem to think so and trying to act like you're part of this "reasonable" and making that your only real argument totally shuts down the point of a discussion.
The only argument you bring up is that "It is a personal opinion, everyone should deal with it", and like I have mentioned, everything is a personal opinion. Some opinions are more well founded than others (hint: yours isn't a very solid opinion) and in fact we are filtering votes for a reason.
Finally, don't act like this entire statistical analysis on overcentralization is fact. It's only a theory on how the metagame behaves and considering we don't even have a real goal behind it other than the presumed goal of "competitiveness" you should think for yourself before just jumping on the bandwagon which I'm going to accuse you of doing considering you accused all of us, which is probably laughable to you but in the same way, you accusing us of such actions is even more laughable to us.
Why are you appealing to "logic" when most people's votes are very well founded anyway? There is no "right" nor there is "wrong" - what is "reasonable" is what is reasonable to you - not for others. Don't act like your opinion is the only correct one. Your entire point about "Our argument is reasonable, all of yours are theorymon" is a pure logical fallacy (irony!) , and in some sense, hypocritical. You shouldn't ever use it unless your goal is to simply show how much you enjoy flaunting your opinion and being a borderline troll.
Manaphy.
Not only does that disprove your point, but I'll go on.
Most people's theorymon is actually based on statistical evidence, so that's a moot point. It's not good theorymon without considering every bit of data is there?
Don't underestimate theorymon, especially good ones. Maybe you wouldn't hate Breloom so much if you theorymonned enough to figure out how to deal with it because trust me, this is extremely easy, as long as you look at the picture as a whole with it.
Empirical? Could you please tell us what exactly you're measuring? And what are the lines we draw? Don't make love to statistics without knowing the effects you're trying to illustrate.
Hello,
I'm all for returning him to the Uber tier.
Comparing Wobbie to Dugtrio and Magnezone is a false comparison. Wobbie trap ability is much farther reaching than either Dugtrio's or Magnezone and Dugtrio and Magnezone are much more fragile, even against those Pokemon they trap. Adding in Encore to Wobbie's movepool which Dugtrio and Magnezone lack makes things worse.
Most of the really good reasons to ban Wobbie have come up in the thread already. The free Stat up even against Counters, the Trap and kill ability to neutralize walls, the general dislike for the pokemon, etc.
In the end, one of the driving concerns for OU has to be building an environment people want to play in. If Wobbie is reducing the level of skill or the level of enjoyment, he has to go. Insisting on keeping Wobbie to satisfy some empirical condition is a bad idea if he's damaging the health of the community in other less tangible ways.
I'm all for returning him to the Uber tier.
Comparing Wobbie to Dugtrio and Magnezone is a false comparison. Wobbie trap ability is much farther reaching than either Dugtrio's or Magnezone and Dugtrio and Magnezone are much more fragile, even against those Pokemon they trap. Adding in Encore to Wobbie's movepool which Dugtrio and Magnezone lack makes things worse.
Most of the really good reasons to ban Wobbie have come up in the thread already. The free Stat up even against Counters, the Trap and kill ability to neutralize walls, the general dislike for the pokemon, etc.
In the end, one of the driving concerns for OU has to be building an environment people want to play in. If Wobbie is reducing the level of skill or the level of enjoyment, he has to go. Insisting on keeping Wobbie to satisfy some empirical condition is a bad idea if he's damaging the health of the community in other less tangible ways.
Yes, you did say that. But you continue to fight the battle using theorymon, which is what is confusing me.
If you had read what I had said, these statistics are usless for Wobbuffet because Wobbuffet is unique compared to every other OU pokemon. Wobbuffet does not take teams and mutilate them on its own like other pokemon, such as Garchomp, Infernape, Tyranitar, Azelf, ect. can. Wobbuffet makes the pokemon I just mentioned stronger. And again, there are substantial amount of users that have said they won't and don't use Wobbuffet for personal reasons, thus skewing your statistics.
I didn't ignore this because of personal preference, I ignored this because many of us now agree on the fact that there is more to this argument that usage, statistics and other similar topics. If the rebanning of Wobbuffet was to be based purely on statistics and empirical evidence, then why is this debate open in the first place?
You seem to have misunderstood. 80% of badgeholders? Everyone has access to this, so no, I was not "accusing" anyone, much less 80% of all badgeholders.
With all the respect, the last fun fact you provided me with was when you implied all wifi battlers were garbage.
Based on statistics that haven't been tested? I believe Wobbuffet's statistics have been tested more than enough.
It's funny how you're trying to turn this into some sort my of tirade against badgeholders with your personal attacks, but for the sake of this topic i'll just ignore that.
I don't know what's so hard to understand. Statistical and empirical evidence suggest Wobbuffet is not too powerful for the OU metagame. All OU Tier decisions up until this point have been taken based on this. That's all I'm pointing out.
You insult me a couple of times and then say you feel like infracting me for putting words in my mouth which I did not use? That was a mere example to voice my opposition to a vote, which I did not elaborate on as chaos stated this was not the point of the topic.
Statistic is as close to "fact" as we get, and has always been. I refuse to get drawn into some personal fight with you on this topic, so I'll ignore your repeated jabs and leave it at that. Cheers.
I see- in that case, we are straying from the standard method of OU tiering. I can add nothing to that - it's your opinion, and while I disagree, I concede it is definitely a valid argument.
Just pointing out that it is pretty hard to focus your whole team around beating Wobb as the only way to 100% counter Wobb is to use Shed Shell or Taunt.
Blissey when it comes in can
(assuming Wish is not allowed)
A) Status
B) Attack
Simply switch to a status absorber or attack back seeing as Blissey is at least 2hko'ed by most physical hitters in the game.
Wobb when it comes in can
A) Encore
B) Counter/Mirror Coat
You cannot switch at all. Oh god, did your choiced garchomp just kill off my pokemon with EQ? Well Garchomp troubles my team so why not get rid of it now? Basically once I send in Wobb you are no longer playing as long as he is in. You have no say in the matter, your Garchomp is simply dead.
Now let's say you send in Blissey. You are low on health and need to softboiled. I switch Wobb in. Now I encore softboiled. You are no longer playing the game as you no longer can switch or pick your moves. I meanwhile can switch any pokemon in for a free stat boost, or just PP stall you to ensure your blissey can no longer heal later in the match.
I really don't understand how you can compare Blissey to Wobbuffet, so maybe you need to elaborate more as to how these two Pokemon are similar.
Oh and please keep in mind that some of the top players on Smogon were the ones that decided to put it into Ubers. Are you seriously calling these top players who studied the metagame inside and out lazy?
Also IIRC Wobb was originally put into Ubers simply because if two Shadow Tag users switched into each other they would be forced to endure an increadibly long stall seeing as back then two Shadow Tag users could not swich out of each other.
80% of population would include 80% of badgeholders.
If you didn't mean it in that way then I would ask you to phrase your wording better so your implications are clear.
Tested in regards to what? A definition that is simply a theory? Could you give me the full implication of what the statistics say about Wobbuffet in the metagame other than "it is not uber"?
Statistics is the art of illustrating a point by skewing data. You can skew the data but if the point they illustrate have little to do with what everyone else is saying, I would be bold enough to say that you're skewing the data in the wrong way.
Stop repeating your statements and give us the full argument that back up this statement.
Don't use examples that hold that kind of implication in that case. This is a debate, we'll rip into every word and phrase you say and try to figure out what you're trying to imply.
Perhaps you should realize that no one is personally attacking you - I'm attacking your logic, not you, and simply giving you a taste of what your arguments actually imply.
In the end you refute all of my counterargument to your points with "statements" and claiming that you are being "personally attacked". If you can't truly refute what anyone is saying, and you can't back up your statements at all even if I had questioned them thoroughly, then I would have to point out that you're not debating, you're yelling.
Have a nice day.
EDIT: Nice to see though, that you do realize that people do have different definitions! I know what you mean by statistical argument (standard OU Tiering) but you don't really expand it other than "This is the definition so this is how it is" when that definition in fact doesn't reflect the full aspect of the metagame and tells us a piece of it.
I really don't know where you got this information from, since it's completely false. Whether or not a Pokemon from the first 3 gens was Uber in D/P was based on Advance precendence and newcomers were banned based on theorymon (mainly base stats I assume. and I believe manaphy was tested but don't quote me on that). To date Smogon has not made a single OU Tier decision based on "statistical and empirical evidence." Just thought I'd clarify.
I've personally spent a lot of time going on and off the fence on Wobbuffet. On one hand, he takes up an entire team slot and works for only a few specific uses. On the other hand, he's an extremely potent set-up Pokémon that's annoying and nigh-uncounterable. While stuff like Dugtrio has a hard time actually finding a safe switch-in, Wobbuffet switches in on a fair number of Pokémon with ease and proceeds to either set up something lethal or kill your opponent. In the right hands, Wobbuffet forces much easier wins.
The question here is whether or not he's broken. Shoddy's statistics say otherwise; he's been hovering around the BL line for quite some time. However, I still think that the sheer potency of Wobbuffet is too much to allow in this current metagame. So thus, I'm voting slight Wobbuffet is Uber.
Very quick mention of something many people are citing: Wobbuffet does not trap any Pokémon. Other Shadow Tag users and Pokémon that obtain Shadow Tag via Trace are not trapped.
The question here is whether or not he's broken. Shoddy's statistics say otherwise; he's been hovering around the BL line for quite some time. However, I still think that the sheer potency of Wobbuffet is too much to allow in this current metagame. So thus, I'm voting slight Wobbuffet is Uber.
Very quick mention of something many people are citing: Wobbuffet does not trap any Pokémon. Other Shadow Tag users and Pokémon that obtain Shadow Tag via Trace are not trapped.
First off, Spiritomb and Sableye are 100% Wobbuffet counters without Shed Shell or Taunt. STAB U - Turn also damages Wobbuffet, so that's not right already.
Blissey can also set up with Calm Mind, then it will be hard to switch in your Physical sweeper because it could get killed or damaged. Wobbuffet can switch in and Encore, so your opponent has a free turn. But with Blissey and status moves, wouldn't one have the same problem?
Your example is flawed. How can a Choice Band Garchomp not pose a threat to Wobbuffet? Garchomp will cripple Wobbuffet and the next Pokemon that comes in will 1) kill Wobbuffet, or 2) do damage to the Pokemon that switches in (it can even set up on the switch).
Wobbuffet has different qualities than Blissey, but that doesn't mean it's better. In my opinion Blissey has better typing, better stats and a better movepool (lol?). Wobbuffet has the ability to outstall certain Pokemon, but it doesn't have a recovery move, can't attack and is a Psychic type Pokemon.
I don't think I have the best argument to convince someone that Wobbuffet is not uber, but I think Wobbuffet is not uber. Wobbuffet may have some of the abilities mentioned above, but in this metagame it can't survive as easily as in previous metagames. With Toxic Spikes, Spikes and Stealth Rock, it will get low on health very quickly and will become worthless. Many Pokemon have the ability to 2HKO Wobbuffet and pose a threat to any team that uses Wobbuffet to "revenge kill" sweepers. So I've come to the conclusion Wobbuffet is not uber.
- Status