Note my mention about statistics - especially about overcentralization, a definition that quite possibly be completely meaningless. I'm not even sure why you even consider our arguments "theorymon" (or at least imply it is) because I'm sure our experiences while we were playing with or against wobbuffet is far from "theorymon". I'm not even sure why you say "not overcentralizing "even matters to start with since that's not, and should not be the only criterion on something is uber or not.
It is not the only criterion, but it is a crux of the argument, and the only one that can reasonable be shown by pure statistics. I also did not mean to imply that your battles have been theorymon, what I should have said is that the battles with Wobbs go both ways, and shouldn't represent everything.
The thing with Wobbuffet is that it's the "one shot wonder" - it does this effortlessly. The point is that it gets the "entire point of all pokemon" done just by switching in, and using Encore. It doesn't have the ability to stop momentum faster - it stops momentum, period.
It doesn't instantly stop momentum, it will if say, your Bandcross is sweeping with Close Combat, then you're screwed. But if your SDchomp is sweeping, there's a high chance that your sweep isn't stopped. (As opposed to Skarmory, who will almost always stop SDchomp). It is good at stopping momentum, but that's it's job, is it not?
This is why Wobbuffet is considered "broken" - becuase it is done so easily.
A pokemon like Lucario can easily sweep a team or Blissey can easily stop special attackers, I wouldn't say they are broken in the least bit.
I'm not sure why skill level is even considered at all - in a competitive metagame, we only need to consider what it can do period, not the "skill level needed to do something", since we assume that eventually every player gets to the skill to abuse such thing.
Understood, however you must accept that everyone is currently not at the same level as the upper echelons, and thus does not deal with Wobbles the same way, as such, I'd like to only look at the optimal ways of dealing with it and playing it.
If this is the case "why bother carrying walls" for specialized purposes when Wobbuffet can be the big general blob that can set up? Oh wait, people already do that. Is there one wall that can set up ANY pokemon? Just becuase what it can do to ONE pokemon isn't unique, that doesn't make the fact that it can do to a good chunk of Pokemon not broken.
No, there is not one wall that can set up on any pokemon, but neither can Wobbuffet. Blissey is a great special who shuts down a great deal of special attacks, practically all of them, as well as stopping some physical threats on occasion! The fact that it can stop half an offensive force is not broken, and Wobb can't do anything to the physical ghosts or special darks at all! (Worse is, these guys are super effective on it).
See the posts above that refute the "Dugtrio and Magnezone do the same thing" argument nonsense. See why this argument doesn't hold ground.
Yes, I'm WELL aware that Dugtrio and Magnezone don't trap the same stuff as Wynaut and Wobbuffet, however, they trap a great deal. So the argument still stands, even if it does not have the same weight.
Except, Pokemon is not a series of 1 vs 1 battles. You do realize this right? Pokemon is about 6 vs 6 TEAM work...?
Clearly I realize that synergy is important, but Wobbs relies on the synergy, as it really can't do much alone.
Same goes for <insert Pokemon here without healing move". What's your point?
Thing is....every usable pokemon except Regigigas (If that is usable...) has a healing move- it's called Rest. Everyone also has sleep talk, so rest doesn't cripple you. Wobbs has NO way of healing other than leftovers and wish, which puts it at a healing level worse than every other pokemon.
Hey wait, isn't that most Pokemon? Switching in safely is the concept of counters and prediction and revenge killing, you do realize this right?
Yes, but Wobbuffet has to be more careful about it than others, as his main threat lies in his gigantic HP. If Deoxys-E loses 50% on a switch in, how does it matter if it ca outspeed and OHKO the opponent's remaining Garchomp and Gyarados?
So far you haven't shown us any reason why Wobbuffet specifically needs MORE support than any other Pokemon... And I have a feeling that you're completely disregarding the fact that it only needs to do it's job once or twice at most.
It does need more support, for the very reason that it can't mount a proper offensive by itself and cannot win against status and heal itself. I'm not disregarding that fact, by the way, I understand that too many bad moves against any pokemon results in death, so namely you've got to play smartly always.
Except Cresselia isn't doing anything and is going to have a really hard time setting up other Pokemon unless you predict.
Cresselia can easily Thunder Wave, Toxic, Ice Beam and do loads to help a team. It can even CM sweep, if it feels like it.
That's the thing. Wobbuffet takes this prediction out of the game and lowers the skill threshold at this point.
I'll agree with you here, it reduces the skill threshold by a bit, but so many other top OUs in relation to other pokemon.
"Guessing" wrong is the death of MANY pokemon. Oh, and if you, the opponent Guess the wobbuffet user wrong, it means death for you. Don't assume it isn't a guessing game for the other player. This is one big reason people want this thing gone.
And don't say oh but prediction is glorified guessing, I'll let you figure out why "prediction" is not glorified guessing - I'm more than confident that you'll be able to tell the difference.
Yeah, that is true. Guessing the wobbuffet wrong is death, and predicting other things wrong is also death. When dealing with Wobbs, there are elss factors, so it isn't pure prediction anymore.
I agree but it's not like Wobbuffet is going to be used at a wall.
Dark, Bug and Ghost are highly used types? Not more than Steel, Ground, Fighting, etc etc etc.
Kyogre is pretty predictable. Predictability has no merit on whether or not pokemon should be banned.
All of those points are valid and I accept them. But do realize that Wobb has virtually no unpredictability at all! Kyogre can Aqua Tail a Blissey and kill it, or Toxic a Shedinja!
It doesn't need to? Just because it's "unpredictable" doesn't mean it's a good Pokemon - see Garchomp.
Garchomp can be a scarfer, a bander, chain chomp, SD chomp, Toxistall chomp (???), you get the point.
In the end, other than the "statistics argument", you gave us nothing more than... theorymon. You fail to emphasize why Wobbuffet is "easier to stop" with certain things than other Pokemon, you failed to consider that Pokemon is not a series of 1 vs 1 battles, and finally, all you did was seriously underestimate what Wobbuffet even does.
I'd like to say that the level of argument I gave matched everything in this thread up to that point, I do acknowledge that pokemon is not a series of one on one battles, and I do believe I gave Wobbuffet it's due. If there is anything else to say, I'm glad to hear it, as you do put up quite valid arguments.
Not that I don't agree with the rest of your post, but IIRC the current status of the event vote is to allow event moves. My guess is that if Wobbuffet stays, it will come with Tickle too.
Ah, my mistake then. That brings the total usable amount to 6 moves, which does add a bit more to it, but not a great deal of unpredictability.
