***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***

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Logann said:
I've had teams without any of those pokemon, and I wasn't swept by Deoxys. He does NOT take things from 100 to 0. So you can get hits in until he dies like you say you can to Garchomp. I don't see how Deoxys is worse than Garchomp like you say. He does have actual counters. He can be wittled down. I don't even see offense teams being screwed a little a bad thing, though either. =/
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First, I'd like to see where I said Deoxys-S was worse than Garchomp. Second, I have said in this topic (that you haven't read) that Deoxys-S doesn't have the OHKO power. It doesn't need it. Taking almost all of OU from 50/60/70/80% to 0%, and outspeeding the entire metagame at the same time is something that no other pokemon can compete with, and it is one of the qualities makes Deoxys-S overpowered in my opinion.
 
Not bias. I don't mind the offense of DP being toned down a bit at all. And I'm sure a lot of people would agree. In the months of him unbanned I have yet to see him cause any real trouble.

And you know that last sentance was definitely wrong.=/
We have to run 1-3 pokemon on a team that can handle chomp in some way or another to stop it from sweeping! Why is it bad that we can run ONE to stop D-S. It isn't like we need to load the entire team with priority, and run two counters to it or something. Like we need ice moves on everything and 1 or 2 counters for Garchomp. Honestly if this voting causes D-S to be banned I don't see how we can in any way allow Chomp.

If the community believes it is uber, they should have done more to convince in the testing time. Because I don't see any impact so far to convince me he is.

And I never said you said that. I was referring to the guy with the weird name. His last paragraph.
 
Logann said:
Not bias. I don't mind the offense of DP being toned down a bit at all. And I'm sure a lot of people would agree. In the months of him unbanned I have yet to see him cause any real trouble.

And you know that last sentance was definitely wrong.=/
We have to run 1-3 pokemon on a team that can handle chomp in some way or another to stop it from sweeping! Why is it bad that we can run ONE to stop D-S. It isn't like we need to load the entire team with priority, and run two counters to it or something. Like we need ice moves on everything and 1 or 2 counters for Garchomp. Honestly if this voting causes D-S to be banned I don't see how we can in any way allow Chomp.
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This is a logical fallacy. This topic isn't about Garchomp, or the comparison of Garchomp to Deoxys-S. This is about Deoxys-S. And I'll move on.

Sweeping offensive teams can handle Garchomp. Garchomp can be outsped, Garchomp takes turns to set up. Garchomp is dangerous. Don't get me wrong, as a whole, Garchomp is most likely more overpowering then Deoxys-S. But one thing that you've ignored the entire time is that Deoxys-S takes away a whole style of team/play. Garchomp does not do this, as Garchomp is beatable by sweeping offense, bulky offense, stall, whatever. They all have ways of dealing with it. You can't say the same for Deoxys-S.

And you know that last sentance was definitely wrong.=/
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I don't see how my last sentance is wrong at all.
 
Logann said:
Not bias. I don't mind the offense of DP being toned down a bit at all. And I'm sure a lot of people would agree. In the months of him unbanned I have yet to see him cause any real trouble.

And you know that last sentance was definitely wrong.=/
We have to run 1-3 pokemon on a team that can handle chomp in some way or another to stop it from sweeping! Why is it bad that we can run ONE to stop D-S. It isn't like we need to load the entire team with priority, and run two counters to it or something. Like we need ice moves on everything and 1 or 2 counters for Garchomp. Honestly if this voting causes D-S to be banned I don't see how we can in any way allow Chomp.

If the community believes it is uber, they should have done more to convince in the testing time. Because I don't see any impact so far to convince me he is.

And I never said you said that. I was referring to the guy with the weird name. His last paragraph.
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When did *I* say that Deoxys-E was worse than Garchomp. I simply said that Deoxys-E presents threats that even Garchomp can't match. That doesn't mean overall Garchomp isn't a better pokemon. (oh btw, I think Garchomp should be banned but that's not the scope of this thread!)

Speaking of which, your reasoning is flawed.

Garchomp doesn't make Ice the best attacking type in the game by far. It doesn't make it's "counters" excellent defensive walls. Garchomp doesn't make Weavile one of the better revenge-killers in the game. Garchomp doesn't make HP Ice/Ice Beam a great option on a lot of pokemon, a fact that has existed since Advance.

My point is that what you mentoned doesn't exist solely because of Garchomp (and actually defensive walls is actually NOT a good way to deal with Garchomp because of Yache Berry + the fact that SD Outrage 2HKOs them easily.)

Deoxys-E is a different case, because the only possible ways of dealing with it are ALL on one side of the offense/defense spectrum (or are random gimmicks/priority which themselves aren't reliable), and thus has a negative impact on the offensive side of the spectrum.
 
Ancien Régime said:
When did *I* say that Deoxys-E was worse than Garchomp. I simply said that Deoxys-E presents threats that even Garchomp can't match. That doesn't mean overall Garchomp isn't a better pokemon. (oh btw, I think Garchomp should be banned but that's not the scope of this thread!)

Speaking of which, your reasoning is flawed.

Garchomp doesn't make Ice the best attacking type in the game by far. It doesn't make it's "counters" excellent defensive walls. Garchomp doesn't make Weavile one of the better revenge-killers in the game. Garchomp doesn't make HP Ice/Ice Beam a great option on a lot of pokemon, a fact that has existed since Advance.

My point is that what you mentoned doesn't exist solely because of Garchomp (and actually defensive walls is actually NOT a good way to deal with Garchomp because of Yache Berry + the fact that SD Outrage 2HKOs them easily.)

Deoxys-E is a different case, because the only possible ways of dealing with it are ALL on one side of the offense/defense spectrum (or are random gimmicks/priority which themselves aren't reliable), and thus has a negative impact on the offensive side of the spectrum.
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How does Deoxys - s poses more of a threat than Garchomp? Garchomp is used because of its offensive abilities. The huge defenses only help Garchomp set up or survive moves. With Choice Band powered Outrages and Swords Dance, Garchomp poses a much bigger threat than Deoxys. Deoxys' usage also never has been close to Garchomp's. I think this means Deoxys just doesn't pose as much of a threat. Deoxys may be a bit more offensively oriented, but Garchomp easily beats this with its better stats.

Wasn't Ice Beam or jsut Ice type moves good in Advance because they countered specific Pokemon? In DP, there are new Pokemon that are also countered by Ice type moves, but that doesn't mean it's not a coincidence Ice type moves are also very populair in DP, I'm sure that without Garchomp Ice type moves would have been used less.

Why would one need gimmicks to counter Deoxys - s? Wobbuffet and Spiritomb (Sp Def) counter it very well. If Blissey switches in on a Special attack, it also counters it. I do not get why you think Deoxys cannot be countered easily. Just like Lucario, you need specific Pokemon to counter it, but that doesn't mean it's hard to counter. Alright, I admit, late game Deoxys cna be very dangerous, but so can Lucario. I do not see why Deoxys - s should be uber. In my opinion, Deoxys - s is not uber.
 
Ancien Régime said:
Speaking of which, your reasoning is flawed.

Garchomp doesn't make Ice the best attacking type in the game by far. It doesn't make it's "counters" excellent defensive walls. Garchomp doesn't make Weavile one of the better revenge-killers in the game. Garchomp doesn't make HP Ice/Ice Beam a great option on a lot of pokemon, a fact that has existed since Advance.
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Why not?

We can argue that Ice-type moves, such as Ice Beam and Ice Shard, are commonly used moves and valued on a high rate because of Garchomp's existance alone. I'm sure that Weavile - as a revenge killer - would be far less effective if there were no Garchomp to revenge kill in the first place. But, because of Garchomp's existance, Weavile's utilized the most as a revenge killer because it can indeed take down the biggest threat in the OverUsed environment with an Ice-type move.

I'm not saying that Weavile would drop in usage drastically if Garchomp was to be banned, because there are certainly other uses that Weavile can fullfill successfully in ones' team. However, I believe that if I were to ask what was one of Weavile's most useful traits in its entire arsenal, 'revenge killing Garchomp' would be heard regulary.

Garchomp may not mean they're the best types in the game, but Garchomp's threat that must be dealt with is certainly one of the reasons as to why they're potentially the best.

Edit: Apologizing for drifting off-topic, and for the following replies - do not continue it.
 
Shiny Crobat said:
How does Deoxys - s poses more of a threat than Garchomp? Garchomp is used because of its offensive abilities. The huge defenses only help Garchomp set up or survive moves. With Choice Band powered Outrages and Swords Dance, Garchomp poses a much bigger threat than Deoxys. Deoxys' usage also never has been close to Garchomp's. I think this means Deoxys just doesn't pose as much of a threat. Deoxys may be a bit more offensively oriented, but Garchomp easily beats this with its better stats.
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You completely missed the point. I didn't say Deoxys-E was more powerful than Garchomp, or was a bigger threat. I said that Deoxys-E presents a threat that Garchomp doesn't. There's a difference.

Why would one need gimmicks to counter Deoxys - s? Wobbuffet and Spiritomb (Sp Def) counter it very well. If Blissey switches in on a Special attack, it also counters it. I do not get why you think Deoxys cannot be countered easily. Just like Lucario, you need specific Pokemon to counter it, but that doesn't mean it's hard to counter. Alright, I admit, late game Deoxys cna be very dangerous, but so can Lucario. I do not see why Deoxys - s should be uber. In my opinion, Deoxys - s is not uber
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Ancien Regime said:
Here's my overall point - if the existence of one pokemon suddenly makes a team that was originally very viable against the other threats in the game unviable, is the problem the team or the one pokemon? I'd say it's that one pokemon.
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I wasn't aware that Deoxys-S was disputed at all. Using him has never led me to an instant win. His Speed is his only good stat, otherwise he's very, very mediocre. His Attack stats are small - he has serious problems maxing Special Attack, having enough Attack to 2HKO Blissey, and being faster than Scarfer X. His defensive capabilities are at best Starmie's level if you max out HP, but they're just bad otherwise.

Combining this with his use on Ladder, the prevalence of Dark types and Ghost types, Choice Scarf making his Speed much less unbeatable (granted you can't guarantee beating him but you can't have him beat some Scarfers and 2HKO Blissey), and his general lack of offensive power and I think it's quite clear that Deoxys-S is OU/BL (depending on usage of course).

49 OU pokemon to 45 OU pokemon isn't "centralsization". It's random fluctuation. Deoxys-S has done very little to centralize the metagame in my opinion; I don't see Choice Scarf Weavile or Jolly Rock Polish Tyranitar attempting to stop him. He's not terribly hard to counter; current defensive Pokémon (Blissey for Special sets, Cresselia for physical) beat him... The arguments go on.

Sorry if this is a little incoherent, I'm a bit tired.
 
Looking through this thread since my post, I would liek to point out a flaw in a lot of arguments. MOVESETS ONLY GET 4 MOVES!

Swampert is generally a very good counter, and I know this because Swamperts have stopped my Deoxys in the past on a regular basis. Snorlax is also a very good counter, Curse...Rest...Curse...Rest...Kill with any attack. Or don't rest. Just kill it with a cursed return/pursuit...


I use a team built specifically to set up for a game-winning deo sweep, and I can say from experience that it is quite difficult sometimes. Remember, that means you are playing with 5 guys until Deo can come in a wreak havoc.


On a side note, using Superpower on Deoxys is stupid. Whoop-dee-do you can take out Blissey, but then you only have 3 moves left for everything else...Just use an Adamant Choice Band Duggy, for example, or anything else that could heavily damage a bliss, to take it out before bringing in Deo-E. It works much better and you can just max speed and SAtk...trust me.
 
Hitit4three said:
Looking through this thread since my post, I would liek to point out a flaw in a lot of arguments. MOVESETS ONLY GET 4 MOVES!

Swampert is generally a very good counter, and I know this because Swamperts have stopped my Deoxys in the past on a regular basis. Snorlax is also a very good counter, Curse...Rest...Curse...Rest...Kill with any attack. Or don't rest. Just kill it with a cursed return/pursuit...


I use a team built specifically to set up for a game-winning deo sweep, and I can say from experience that it is quite difficult sometimes. Remember, that means you are playing with 5 guys until Deo can come in a wreak havoc.


On a side note, using Superpower on Deoxys is stupid. Whoop-dee-do you can take out Blissey, but then you only have 3 moves left for everything else...Just use an Adamant Choice Band Duggy, for example, or anything else that could heavily damage a bliss, to take it out before bringing in Deo-E. It works much better and you can just max speed and SAtk...trust me.
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Superpower is more for TTar which it cant beat otherwise unless its almost KO'ed and other ice/dark/normal types.Unless Blissey switches in on Super power, blissey can either thunder wave it or just Softboil until its forced to switch.
 
D/P is offensive enough, anyway.
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I don't even see offense teams being screwed a little a bad thing, though either. =/
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Oh? But usage statistics have not suggested any real decline in offensive play, have they? In fact, haven't a lot of people in this very thread argued that there has been "no centralization" and that many top ladder teams are offensive? Deoxys-S doesn't significantly effect how offensive the metagame is, it just kills off a particular style of offensive play, and forces the players who employ that strategy to move on to a different style ("bulky offense"). That's centralization, and on top of that, it's not really helping to "balance" offense with stall like you're implying.
 
Blame Game said:
Oh? But usage statistics have not suggested any real decline in offensive play, have they? In fact, haven't a lot of people in this very thread argued that there has been "no centralization" and that many top ladder teams are offensive? Deoxys-S doesn't significantly effect how offensive the metagame is, it just kills off a particular style of offensive play, and forces the players who employ that strategy to move on to a different style ("bulky offense"). That's centralization, and on top of that, it's not really helping to "balance" offense with stall like you're implying.
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Wait... so there hasn't been a change in statistics or a decline in offensive play... but it "kills off a playstyle and forces the use of bulkier sweepers"?

Let me edit that for accuracy.

There hasn't been much of a change in statistics at all and Deoxys E hasn't yet really effected the metagame that much.

Even if Deoxys caused the meta-game to be entirely bulkier offense (which certainly hasn't happened yet), I maintain that it wouldn't be a bad thing, just the next step in the evolution of the metagame. I feel like the metagame has slowly been shifting towards a bulkier game anyway. All the choice users (especially Scarf) encourage bulkier pokemon.

Regardless of what the statistics say and theory about the metagame shifting, I think it's very difficult to look at Deoxys E and say to yourself "Gee, this thing is an unstoppable beast". It certainly suffers from a bad case of "4 slot syndrome", and with mediocre attacking stats and the lack of a useful STAB move it's hard for him to do anything but clean up the mess after a long battle. Priority moves mixed with passive damage can end Deoxys E's somewhat fragile life very quickly, especially if he's sporting a Life Orb (very common). Bronzong, Metagross, Cresselia, Swampert, Spiritomb, Dusknoir and probably a dozen or more others can switch in on a predictable move by Deoxys and not be threatened at all, threatening Deoxys with a KO or status. Between those defensive Pokemon and Priority moves/passive damage/revenge killing Deoxys itself, I don't see him being overpowering in the slightest.

I'm definitely voting for Deoxys in OU.
 
Something I dislike that I haven't seen posted is similar to Salamence in that a proper attacking spread can use Sand/Hail and Stealth Rock support to turn many 2HKOs into OHKOs, and therefore make its revenge killing all that much more threatening. Since it's so fast, the residual damage matters even less with both 50 base HP and life orb. This is silly since it puts extra weight on the "forced counter" idea that Aldaron already addressed, namely those same steels (Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross), as they are better at negating that residual damage. The best fit to this category would probably be Pursuit Metagross.

I believe that Deoxys Speed Form is Uber Tier on the basis that it has an undesirable impact on game play in that it severely restricts glass cannon style of offensive play and restricts creative and innovative freedoms otherwise available for a competitive team of that play style. It does so by requiring a counter, those counters being counter-intuitive to fast, offensive play. I do NOT believe that Deoxys S is Uber based on statistical usage or overcentralization. Ubers hurt the strategy of standard play, and Deoxys S is no exception.
 
After much playtesting I have to the conclusion of: Deoxys S is not Uber. Deoxys is just a Pokemon that you can easily use to kill revenge sweepers. I certainly have not seen Deoxys sweep entire teams because he has counters just like Pokemon such as Infernape and Garchomp. If you are playing with all fast frail sweepers who can be OHKOed by Deoxys then you need to adjust your team then. I don't see people who use Stall Teams say Infernape should be banned because it can OHKO most of that stall team.
 
I never saw Deoxys-S as being dominant in any way, or at least no better than [insert fragile sweeper here]. Sure, it can do a good job of mopping up a weakened team, and it can outspeed pretty much the whole metagame. It even cleans up offensive teams like there's no tomorrow. Infernape does basically the same thing, though. As does Garchomp. Infernape gives the 'Fuck you' to Stall teams, and Garchomp runs over any team not overly prepared for it. Both can kill most weakened Pokemon, and even many full-health ones, as well as outspeed a large part of the metagame.

Conclusion - Deoxys-S is just a different quick, fragile sweeper. It holds its own niche in the metagame, but thats something to be embraced, not banned.

OU.
 
Ancien Régime said:
You completely missed the point. I didn't say Deoxys-E was more powerful than Garchomp, or was a bigger threat. I said that Deoxys-E presents a threat that Garchomp doesn't. There's a difference.
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Then Garchomp poses a bigger threat. If Garchomp is OU and poses a bigger threat offensively and defensively, any Pokemon that does this less than Garchomp is obviously at least OU.

Also, don't people use several Pokemon to counter (or at least be able to kill) Garchomp? Isn't Gliscor used because of Garchomp, Lucario and Heracross? (And other less threatening Pokemon). Every Pokemon needs to be killed in order to win, isn't countering a good way of doing that?
 
EDIT: The description I had before, I have been told is shit, sooo, a real explanation, and a change of vote. So sure, it outspeeds most of the pokemon in OU, but it is fragile and doesn't have the Sweeping Capabilities of Chomp and Ape. It can be walled and countered by Cres and Suicune. I actually now think that Deoxys-S has a unique spot in the metagame. So I now vote Deoxys-S OU.
 
Shiny Crobat said:
Then Garchomp poses a bigger threat. If Garchomp is OU and poses a bigger threat offensively and defensively, any Pokemon that does this less than Garchomp is obviously at least OU.
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He said a different kind of threat. Not a bigger threat. And Garchomp's tier status is going to be discussed shortly, this I guarantee you.

Also, don't people use several Pokemon to counter (or at least be able to kill) Garchomp? Isn't Gliscor used because of Garchomp, Lucario and Heracross? (And other less threatening Pokemon). Every Pokemon needs to be killed in order to win, isn't countering a good way of doing that?
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See above. "It's weaker than Garchomp" is not a reason to keep it OU, because there's no guarantee Garchomp is going to stay OU much longer. And, as the poster you're quoting has said, it's apples to oranges.

Shiny Crobat, could you please use a smaller avatar? It's making my page scroll.
 
Phizzlax said:
Bronzong, Metagross, Cresselia, Swampert, Spiritomb, Dusknoir and probably a dozen or more others can switch in on a predictable move by Deoxys and not be threatened at all, threatening Deoxys with a KO or status.
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Can you at least read the posts that have come before?

We know all of those can counter Deoxys-E.

But why does a successful team have to completely alter its playing style, which the existence of ONE of those pokemon on the team would do, just for the sake of countering ONE pokemon?

Just because? Maybe I don't have to build every team with a Deoxys-E "counter". Just like I don't want to build every team with a Groudon or Dialga counter.
 
Yeah, I forgot that Bronzong, Metagross, Cresselia, Swampert, Spiritomb, and Dusknoir all have only one purpose and only counter one pokemon =/

I listed my arguments in my own words to adhere to the "list your reasons when you vote" rule. It's a lot classier than "It's all been said, I vote OU".
 
Pimplup said:
Deoxys-S is faster than most Skarf users and OHKo's them. The Life Orb set is too hard to counter thus making Deoxys-S Uber.
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People have been listing good counters for the Life Orb set the entire thread, so you can't say that it has no counters. Also, a super-effective hit does not mean an automatic OHKO, so it doesn't OHKO most Choice Scarf users. Remember, there are a lot of bulky pokemon that use Choice Scarf as well, not just the super-frail ones. Sorry, but you need to provide some better reasoning.
 
Ancien Régime said:
Can you at least read the posts that have come before?

We know all of those can counter Deoxys-E.

But why does a successful team have to completely alter its playing style, which the existence of ONE of those pokemon on the team would do, just for the sake of countering ONE pokemon?

Just because? Maybe I don't have to build every team with a Deoxys-E "counter". Just like I don't want to build every team with a Groudon or Dialga counter.
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I fail to see how this is any different than being forced to carry a counter for Garchomp or Mixape. It's not like those Pokemon have a longer list of counters than Deoxys-e.
 
Bologo said:
People have been listing good counters for the Life Orb set the entire thread, so you can't say that it has no counters. Also, a super-effective hit does not mean an automatic OHKO, so it doesn't OHKO most Choice Scarf users. Remember, there are a lot of bulky pokemon that use Choice Scarf as well, not just the super-frail ones. Sorry, but you need to provide some better reasoning.
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chaos said:
Not good enough.
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OK, OK, I'll think up some good reasoning, I may edit in correct?
 
Deoxys-S can be countered, but that alone isn't a reason for it to stay in OU; Kyogre can be countered by BL Pokemon (Shedinja and possibly Ludicolo). I don't like how it generally ruins offensive teams, how it often outdoes other bulky+fast Pokemon (as it can easily do a bulky spread if it sacrifices some speed) like Crobat and Starmie, or how I can't easily predict around it, like I can with other Pokes over 400 speed. The Taunt/Recover/Toxic/Cosmic Power set can also really throw a wrench into things if you were expecting to counter it with something like Cresselia, Jirachi, or Bronzong. I also like the idea of banning it because it simplifies the rules by considering Deoxys one Pokemon.

Edit: I don't think that Deoxys-S promotes diversity. It completely outclasses most slower Choice Scarfers, and can't be as simply countered by prediction (like a normal CSer, where I can, say, switch Metagross in on Leaf Storm, and switch Vaporeon in on HP Fire, and have the opposing CS Roserade locked into the move it's using. With DeoS, it has the speed without the drawback of a Choice item). For these reasons, and the reasons outlined by others, I believe that Deoxys-S is uber. I'm a little torn, but I think that the metagame will be better if Deoxys-S is banned.
 
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