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***[VOTE] The final Wobbuffet "discussion" thread***
- Thread starter imperfectluck
- Start date
- Status
Wobbeffet is Uber. It is something that basically has counters, but you can not control to swap into a counter. It is just too game breaking to belong in OU.
(Again, I need to learn to type faster... @_@)
I'd say this is definitely strong enough evidence. I withdraw my query. I spend a fair bit of time on Shoddy, but since I don't use Wobbuffet and don't see it much, I don't get a lot of people saying that to me.
I do see the statistics arguments but at this point, I feel as if it's simply arbitrary - and thus not reasonable. The only reason the statistics argument holds ground is simply because of the current definition of tiers involves usage, a definition that many people in this thread has gone against in saying Wobbuffet is uber. This must imply that there must be something more than what is currently being argued with statistics on a definition that only looks at usage (the relationship between centralization and balance is only a theory and it seems as if this is simply assumed). I feel as if usage is only one side of what could be a much deeper issue, and this is why I believe statistics at this point is simply arbitrary and shouldn't be considered for the sake of this argument.
Well I don't want to go into minor details about Skarmory (who only stops SUB SD Chomp, Skarmory takes a major hit if it runs Fire Fang/Blast) so I'll only answer the main argument.
My argument on why Momentum is stopped is simply because all the information you collected up to that point goes out of the window. I'm not advocating the use of Wobbuffet to trap kill, either.
The reason I say Wobbuffet stops momentum is that when it comes in early game, you're forced to make a guess based on very little information that might have been rendered useless anyway, and it makes it pretty difficult for your opponent to overturn the momentum that was gained from it.
I do realize the flaw in the wording that "Wobbuffet instantly stops momentum" and I apologize for not clarifying the point enough.
I'm not sure if we can make that kind of comparison of physically sweeping/special walling versus synergy and momentum, unless you can give me a good argument on why that comparison may hold.
I did address this, Wobbuffet can get free turns out of a good chunk of Pokemon.
Like I said, this implies on the comparisons between what Blissey can do is somehow equivalent to what Wobbuffet can do. Comparing Pokemon and what Pokemon does to each other is a bit silly, don't you think?
I'm not sure what you are refuting then, since no one intelligent made that argument that "wobbuffet should be banned just because it traps", but the combination of trapping and encore. As I have mentioned before, this is a strawman.
Does that really matter at all? And even then, it can stall out recover PP out of Pokemon (no i'm not saying struggle), it can kill choice item users, etc etc etc. How are you measuring what a Pokemon can do anyway and how are you drawing the line between "it can't do much alone" and ...
...this?
What a Pokemon does for a team is a lot more important than what it can do alone, considering you consider what it can do alone when you pick a Pokemon for your team. There is a reason synergy is yelled out as important, I don't think it's fair to use the reason "Wobby doesn't do much alone" as a reason it is not broken since it does hell of a good job boosting it's teammembers.
Does every Pokemon USE rest? Even if Wobbuffet has rest, would any one really use it considering all it needs is encore+ countercoat + tickle/safeguard? I don't see any reason to use rest since that's a pretty dangerous stunt on Wobbuffet's part. Maybe it'll have to pick on Blisseys and then rest off, but the point is, the best way to use it is not to try and stall so it can do what it usually does again and again (although I'd argue it only needs to do it once or twice)
Good point.
But does the fact that it needs more support make it less uber? Does Wobbuffet even NEED support to do what it does? Nope.
But they do it in a different way than Wobbuffet, which is why the entire argument started in the first place.
Even if all Garchomp could be was the standard SD Yache Set, I would call it a good Pokemon. Anyway, this will probably detract from the argument and considering "predictability" doesn't really say much about our current state of tiering, let's go on.
Just a side note. I used my Wobba Team against a team in which EVERY SINGLE POKEMON on the other team had either Taunt, Shed Shell, U-Turn, Baton Pass, or was a physical based Ghost. The guy also had Toxic Spikes. I still won, even though I misplayed horribly. I'll give the log if you want. It was the most centralized team that's ever been used against me.
Well, Shiny Crobat, you said it yourself. "Logic? What logic?" You've used absolutely no logic or common sense in this entire discussion.
But I digress. Main point: Even a team that is ostensibly "Wobb-Proof" can still lose to Wobbuffet.
Well, Shiny Crobat, you said it yourself. "Logic? What logic?" You've used absolutely no logic or common sense in this entire discussion.
But I digress. Main point: Even a team that is ostensibly "Wobb-Proof" can still lose to Wobbuffet.
From what i have seen people take advantage of shadow tag and encore a recover move bring in smeargle and it gives them a free spore and they belly pass to something like lucario. There is also no way to send in a counter so the opponent always loses to wobbefett. The only way to counter it is toxic but it still can be a problem. Lots of people use Wobbafett.
I vote for Wobbuffet to be placed in the Uber tier. If you can't switch out, you don't have control of the game. Encore and Mirror Coat or Counter allows it to fend for itself. Since it's supposed to be used in Baton Pass teams, it basically removes all resistance for a turn when it switches out. Depending upon what move they used Encore on, they have the power to switch to a Pokemon that is effective against the one you have out. Where is the skill in that? It's like making the rules up as you go along with a board game.
Since the metagame is based on switching, it doesn't seem logical to allow a Pokemon that doesn't let you switch. U-Turn is a super effective way of switching out, but no one in their right mind would switch a Wobbuffet in on Scizor. I've used Wobbuffet on a Baton Pass team with Smeargle with success. There's a huge difference between setting up Spider Web, Spore, etcetera and having Wobbuffet to set up an Encore and switch out.
Wobbuffet can basically make any player a threat. The usage has been lower than expected with Wobbuffet, but perhaps everyone always felt like it was coming to this point. I'm sure if Wobbuffet was officially allowed in standard competitive play without a second thought, its usage would be more. The bottom line is that it has no counters. Baton Pass and U-Turn can get you passed Shadow Tag, as well as having Shadow Tag yourself, but you have to assume that Wobbuffet isn't switched into a Pokemon with either of those moves.
Since the metagame is based on switching, it doesn't seem logical to allow a Pokemon that doesn't let you switch. U-Turn is a super effective way of switching out, but no one in their right mind would switch a Wobbuffet in on Scizor. I've used Wobbuffet on a Baton Pass team with Smeargle with success. There's a huge difference between setting up Spider Web, Spore, etcetera and having Wobbuffet to set up an Encore and switch out.
Wobbuffet can basically make any player a threat. The usage has been lower than expected with Wobbuffet, but perhaps everyone always felt like it was coming to this point. I'm sure if Wobbuffet was officially allowed in standard competitive play without a second thought, its usage would be more. The bottom line is that it has no counters. Baton Pass and U-Turn can get you passed Shadow Tag, as well as having Shadow Tag yourself, but you have to assume that Wobbuffet isn't switched into a Pokemon with either of those moves.
While I do agree that Wobb is Uber, I do have a minor nitpick. Nintendo fixed the Shadow Tag vs Shadow Tag issue so that they cancel each other out and both can switch away from each other.
Ignoring the fact that you aren't old enough to vote in this community... the fact that you mentioned Wob vs Wob means you don't know anything about playing with Wobbuffet. Thanks for posting, next time read the rules.
This was typed before reading the required registration date for voting, however, I’m still going to post this because I believe I am a member of the community regardless of my registration date and choose to make my opinion heard on the matter not as a vote but as just contributing to the discussion. Despite my inexperience with Pokemon I can still see Wobbuffet’s effect on the metagame and I personally find the insinuation that because of my registration date that somehow I am incompetent and have no valid point to be made is ridiculous. In fact, I believe it is my lack of experience with Pokemon that actually makes my point all the more valid.
First I wanted to address the comparison between Wobbuffet and other trappers as an argument as to why Wobbuffet should not be uber, an argument that at first I agreed with. There are a few different factors that distinguish Wobbuffet from other “trappers.” Most notable is Wobbuffet’s ability to trap any and all Pokemon not equipped with a Shed Shell or those that do not have U-Turn or Baton Pass in their move set. Wobbuffet can safely trap, and kill, a wide variety of Pokemon as opposed to Dugtrio or Magnezone. Wobbuffet’s restrictions to what it can trap are much smaller than that of other trappers. Furthermore, even though other trappers are capable of trapping certain Pokemon they cannot successfully kill that particular Pokemon further limiting the viability of the Wobbuffet comparison. For example, Dugtrio can trap Suicune but it will not be able to successfully kill it. However, Wobbuffet doesn’t have nearly as many limitations as Dugtrio or Magnezone. Wobbuffet can kill a Pokemon with Counter or Mirror Coat quite easily or it the opponent chooses to stat up they can hit it with a nice Encore. The ability to trap though is not my main reason for why Wobbuffet should be banned from standard play. My main argument is that Wobbuffet, with its defenses and it’s access to the move Encore, limit the impact of skill on the game. Currently in competitive play OHKO moves are banned and this is because it has the potential to eliminate, or at least limit, the player’s skill in deciding who wins the match. I believe the goal of Smogon and the competitive community as a whole was and still is to promote skill as being the most influential factor in succeeding in the metagame.
I initially stated that I believed my lack of experience is what makes my point all the more valid and many of you probably were baffled by this statement, so let me further elaborate. I consider myself a pretty good player, but I have only been playing Pokemon for a short amount of time and as such am still far from the caliber of some of the players that roam Smogon. I have made 2 different Wobbuffet-oriented teams which have been able to successfully defeat some very well known players on Smogon that I have encountered on the ladder, something I wouldn’t normally be able to accomplish. My first team was essentially similar to the team portrayed in the commonly discussed “TAY logs” so I won’t recap that. On my second team I decided to take this idea of something setting up after Wobbuffet Encored a non-damaging move a bit further. After Wobbuffet Encored a non-damaging such as catching Bronzong on a Stealth Rock I would then proceed to bring out Smeargle then either Substitute or Spore on the switch depending on my prediction. I would then proceeded to Belly Drum, get a Salac Boost, and Baton Pass to Lucario which is basically “good game”. I wouldn’t normally have the ability to pull of something of this nature on a highly skilled player but because of Wobbuffets’ ability coupled with Encore I was. This lead to many situations where I, the less skilled player, succeeded over the more skilled player. To me, this is the opposite of what anyone whether it be in Pokemon or any competitive game should be able to accomplished. While skill is never the only factor contributing to a win I believe the goal of Smogon and the competitive community should be to highlight skill and with Wobbuffet alive in standard the less skilled player may often succeed over the more skilled player.
I also want to address the question of statistics. I am empiricist and as such I support any and all tests to determine uber status. However, you will never see me argue that Wobbuffet over-centralizes the metagame so the statistical argument to me is irrelevant. As a thought experiment, if OHKO moves were allowed competitively I doubt there would be an increase in the use of Pokemon with the ability Battle Armor or Sturdy because the use would be limited. Many competitive players wouldn’t bother using Guillotine or Fissure, hence, they wouldn’t demonstrate “over-centralization.” The reason they are banned on the ladder is because they decrease skill as a deciding factor in the outcome of a game, the same effect that Wobbuffet has.
When I initially begun to consider Wobbuffet’s tier placement I was inclined to agree with those, most prominently Obi, that it’s ability to trap was unremarkable in that Dugtrio, Magnezone, Trapinch, and Probopass had a similar effect. However, upon further consideration and not only using Wobbuffet myself but seeing Wobbuffet used against me I have reached the conclusion that Wobbuffet is indeed uber because he has the potential to limit the players skill in deciding the outcome of a match.
First I wanted to address the comparison between Wobbuffet and other trappers as an argument as to why Wobbuffet should not be uber, an argument that at first I agreed with. There are a few different factors that distinguish Wobbuffet from other “trappers.” Most notable is Wobbuffet’s ability to trap any and all Pokemon not equipped with a Shed Shell or those that do not have U-Turn or Baton Pass in their move set. Wobbuffet can safely trap, and kill, a wide variety of Pokemon as opposed to Dugtrio or Magnezone. Wobbuffet’s restrictions to what it can trap are much smaller than that of other trappers. Furthermore, even though other trappers are capable of trapping certain Pokemon they cannot successfully kill that particular Pokemon further limiting the viability of the Wobbuffet comparison. For example, Dugtrio can trap Suicune but it will not be able to successfully kill it. However, Wobbuffet doesn’t have nearly as many limitations as Dugtrio or Magnezone. Wobbuffet can kill a Pokemon with Counter or Mirror Coat quite easily or it the opponent chooses to stat up they can hit it with a nice Encore. The ability to trap though is not my main reason for why Wobbuffet should be banned from standard play. My main argument is that Wobbuffet, with its defenses and it’s access to the move Encore, limit the impact of skill on the game. Currently in competitive play OHKO moves are banned and this is because it has the potential to eliminate, or at least limit, the player’s skill in deciding who wins the match. I believe the goal of Smogon and the competitive community as a whole was and still is to promote skill as being the most influential factor in succeeding in the metagame.
I initially stated that I believed my lack of experience is what makes my point all the more valid and many of you probably were baffled by this statement, so let me further elaborate. I consider myself a pretty good player, but I have only been playing Pokemon for a short amount of time and as such am still far from the caliber of some of the players that roam Smogon. I have made 2 different Wobbuffet-oriented teams which have been able to successfully defeat some very well known players on Smogon that I have encountered on the ladder, something I wouldn’t normally be able to accomplish. My first team was essentially similar to the team portrayed in the commonly discussed “TAY logs” so I won’t recap that. On my second team I decided to take this idea of something setting up after Wobbuffet Encored a non-damaging move a bit further. After Wobbuffet Encored a non-damaging such as catching Bronzong on a Stealth Rock I would then proceed to bring out Smeargle then either Substitute or Spore on the switch depending on my prediction. I would then proceeded to Belly Drum, get a Salac Boost, and Baton Pass to Lucario which is basically “good game”. I wouldn’t normally have the ability to pull of something of this nature on a highly skilled player but because of Wobbuffets’ ability coupled with Encore I was. This lead to many situations where I, the less skilled player, succeeded over the more skilled player. To me, this is the opposite of what anyone whether it be in Pokemon or any competitive game should be able to accomplished. While skill is never the only factor contributing to a win I believe the goal of Smogon and the competitive community should be to highlight skill and with Wobbuffet alive in standard the less skilled player may often succeed over the more skilled player.
I also want to address the question of statistics. I am empiricist and as such I support any and all tests to determine uber status. However, you will never see me argue that Wobbuffet over-centralizes the metagame so the statistical argument to me is irrelevant. As a thought experiment, if OHKO moves were allowed competitively I doubt there would be an increase in the use of Pokemon with the ability Battle Armor or Sturdy because the use would be limited. Many competitive players wouldn’t bother using Guillotine or Fissure, hence, they wouldn’t demonstrate “over-centralization.” The reason they are banned on the ladder is because they decrease skill as a deciding factor in the outcome of a game, the same effect that Wobbuffet has.
When I initially begun to consider Wobbuffet’s tier placement I was inclined to agree with those, most prominently Obi, that it’s ability to trap was unremarkable in that Dugtrio, Magnezone, Trapinch, and Probopass had a similar effect. However, upon further consideration and not only using Wobbuffet myself but seeing Wobbuffet used against me I have reached the conclusion that Wobbuffet is indeed uber because he has the potential to limit the players skill in deciding the outcome of a match.
I'm going to support your statement. Some have mentioned that Wobbuffet's weighted jump from 47 to 46 indicates that is not very successful. What matters is the ratio of Weighted value/Unweighted value. I only used the top 47 Unweighted. These are the Top 6.
1. Wobbuffet 1366
2. Celebi 1358
3. Heatran 1329
4. Zapdos 1328
5. Roserade 1328
6. Deoxys 1310
The Bottom 6
42. Dusknoir 1206
43. Dragonite 1204
44. Ninjask 1157
45. Porygon-Z 1151
46. Snorlax 1150
47. Electivire 1136
This indicates that you nailed it.
For the sake of argument, this is the question. If I devised a pokemon moveset so devastating that I never lost, but no one else used it for whatever reason, should that pokemon be banned? This is essentially what's going on with Wobbuffet. The reason we don't see it's effect is because it is rarely used. About 1/4 of its uses were as a lead(probably the least effective way to use it)yet, it is still #1 on my list. If Wobbuffet were used as much as Garchomp, I think guessing would become a larger part of the Metagame. That seems like a bad thing. Unfortunately, we've had 4 months of a percentage of Wobbuffet users, using Wobbuffet to great advantage, so we still don't know.
No one has said it, but you can't tell me that no one realizes, that if Wobbuffet stays OU, that they can continue to bring a gun to a knife fight.
As far as I'm concerned, Wobbuffet can stay OU. Let those that are willing to wield it, properly, hold an overall advantage over those that don't use it at all. If it had been up to me, I would never have allowed Wobbuffet in OU. As long as the "Code of Honor" exists however, Wobbuffet will never be a huge problem, anyway.
EDIT: I didn't get a response, X-Act posts weighted/unweighted, he gets a different response. Of course, his was more thorough, but the basic concept remains. That's life.
Wobbuffet is uber, and I'm not going to use the "no counters" argument, because obviously, so many other OU Pokemon have no perfect counters. Wobb, as IggyBot and some others have said, completely removes prediction from the metagame, and prediction is what makes Pokemon more of a competitive game. By being able to switch in with relative impunity against weaker Pokemon thanks to its decent defenses and being able to predict the Pokemon's move exactly with the use of Encore, Wobbuffet turns otherwise-competitive games into "who can bring out Wobb at the right time". The ubers are the Pokemon that, when removed from the game, make the game as competitive as possible, and for this reason Wobbuffet should be banned.
I realize I'm ridiculously late (timezones, and all that!) but since this was directed at me originally:
So you're saying we banned them based on... theorymon. That's still not banning them on statistical evidence, like you originally claimed was the process used for all Pokemon. As I said: Overcentralization is not, has not, and never will be the only reason we ban a Pokemon, and it does not have to be proven for a Pokemon to be banned.
No, I'm not joking, because even your counter-theorymon shows an underestimation of Wobbuffet. Wobbuffet Encores your burn, Safeguards and now I bring in a stat-upper to take advantage of at least one free turn. I asked if you ever used Wobbuffet as a serious question, because the theorymon you're using to try and counter my arguments still ends up with Wobbuffet/my team coming out with a huge advantage.
More of the same. You Roost on your one free turn, and I Encore it. I can now bring in anything I like for a free turn of set up. Roosting is the worst thing you can do.
All the arguments you're calling theorymon are actual scenarios that happen almost every time Wobbuffet is used. How can something be theorymon if it has happened to the people in this thread time and time again in actual battles? That's not theorymon, that's experience, and that's what we're supposed to be using to make this call. All your theorymon "solutions" to my theorymon scenarios show little Wobbuffet experience. Calling every disagreeable argument "pure theorymon" is a cheap way out of actually responding to people's points, and is borderline hypocritical given every argument you've used - primarily the use of stats in the tiering system, the definition of overcentralization, the definition of uber, etc - are all still being theorymon'd in the Policy Review. Pot, kettle, black.
Lyfsaho said:
So you're saying we banned them based on... theorymon. That's still not banning them on statistical evidence, like you originally claimed was the process used for all Pokemon. As I said: Overcentralization is not, has not, and never will be the only reason we ban a Pokemon, and it does not have to be proven for a Pokemon to be banned.
Lyfsaho said:
No, I'm not joking, because even your counter-theorymon shows an underestimation of Wobbuffet. Wobbuffet Encores your burn, Safeguards and now I bring in a stat-upper to take advantage of at least one free turn. I asked if you ever used Wobbuffet as a serious question, because the theorymon you're using to try and counter my arguments still ends up with Wobbuffet/my team coming out with a huge advantage.
Lyfsaho said:
More of the same. You Roost on your one free turn, and I Encore it. I can now bring in anything I like for a free turn of set up. Roosting is the worst thing you can do.
All the arguments you're calling theorymon are actual scenarios that happen almost every time Wobbuffet is used. How can something be theorymon if it has happened to the people in this thread time and time again in actual battles? That's not theorymon, that's experience, and that's what we're supposed to be using to make this call. All your theorymon "solutions" to my theorymon scenarios show little Wobbuffet experience. Calling every disagreeable argument "pure theorymon" is a cheap way out of actually responding to people's points, and is borderline hypocritical given every argument you've used - primarily the use of stats in the tiering system, the definition of overcentralization, the definition of uber, etc - are all still being theorymon'd in the Policy Review. Pot, kettle, black.
I'd like to counter the presumption that people seem to have that Wobba takes "no skill" to use. There is plenty of skill to using him, first off, your team must be well constructed to properly support him, you pretty much need a way to get rid of toxic spikes unless you want wobba to be woefully ineffective. Team building is as much skill as anything else in the game.
Secondly, you can't just send him out and win instantly, you have to predict the same as any other pokemon, if they switch to a Boah the same turn you bring in wobba, you reveal your strategy and are forced to switch to a counter (I hope you remembered one while building your team). Pokemon on an offensive team might hit you so hard on the switch in, that they kill you (or pretty close to) before you get a chance to get a chance to encore and switch in whatever you wanted to set up.
So then you get something encored, time to win right?
switch to smeargle
sub
spore
belly drum
pass to lucario
win
Except that's not exactly how it goes, it's more like:
opponent switches
sub
opponent breaks smeargle's sub
spore
Good so far right? Here's where it can go bad places.
Option 1:
opponent uses sleep talk, smeargle has fainted
Option 2:
opponent switches
belly drum
opponent uses priority move, smeargle has fainted
Option 3:
opponent switches
belly drum
pass to lucario
opponent uses roar/ww/spore/hypnosis/yawn/haze
Ok, well smeargle sucks right? Let's take him out of the equation:
lucario uses swords dance
opponent switches in Gliscor
Oh, well then:
Dragonite uses Dragon Dance
Opponent switches in scarfchomp
As you can see, wobba doesn't allow you to do anything special, the only way you sweep with something wobba set up is if they didn't have a counter for it anyway (in which case your opponent has bigger problems than wobuffett). Or if you already took out their counter using a little thing called skill.
What's that you say? Wobba took all the skill out of starting the setup? I suppose your partially correct, it would have been more skillful to setup dragonite by using a motor drived electivire to bait a cb dugtrio into getting locked into earthquake so you could come in and DD up. But, here's another situation where a certain pokemon existing has taken a considerable amount of skill out of a situation:
Here's player A and player B, A has an all offensive team and B has a standard team.
Let's ask them a question, what do you do if your infenape is facing off against a porgon-Z.
A: Ok he's probably going to tri-attack since he doesn't have any moves that hit me for SE, so I should probably switch in my lucario to resist the hit and then finish him off on the next round. Unless I observed earlier in the battle that he's the type that likes to predict a lot, in that case he'll probably use hp fighting so I'll switch in my Yanmega... hmm
B: I switch in Blissey.
Don't you want to think about that? It might..
B:I said Blissey.
A's solution may have been more skillful but B's was just as effective.
As for my vote, I'll hold off for now and see the responces this topic gets, my mind can still be changed on this subject.
Secondly, you can't just send him out and win instantly, you have to predict the same as any other pokemon, if they switch to a Boah the same turn you bring in wobba, you reveal your strategy and are forced to switch to a counter (I hope you remembered one while building your team). Pokemon on an offensive team might hit you so hard on the switch in, that they kill you (or pretty close to) before you get a chance to get a chance to encore and switch in whatever you wanted to set up.
So then you get something encored, time to win right?
switch to smeargle
sub
spore
belly drum
pass to lucario
win
Except that's not exactly how it goes, it's more like:
opponent switches
sub
opponent breaks smeargle's sub
spore
Good so far right? Here's where it can go bad places.
Option 1:
opponent uses sleep talk, smeargle has fainted
Option 2:
opponent switches
belly drum
opponent uses priority move, smeargle has fainted
Option 3:
opponent switches
belly drum
pass to lucario
opponent uses roar/ww/spore/hypnosis/yawn/haze
Ok, well smeargle sucks right? Let's take him out of the equation:
lucario uses swords dance
opponent switches in Gliscor
Oh, well then:
Dragonite uses Dragon Dance
Opponent switches in scarfchomp
As you can see, wobba doesn't allow you to do anything special, the only way you sweep with something wobba set up is if they didn't have a counter for it anyway (in which case your opponent has bigger problems than wobuffett). Or if you already took out their counter using a little thing called skill.
What's that you say? Wobba took all the skill out of starting the setup? I suppose your partially correct, it would have been more skillful to setup dragonite by using a motor drived electivire to bait a cb dugtrio into getting locked into earthquake so you could come in and DD up. But, here's another situation where a certain pokemon existing has taken a considerable amount of skill out of a situation:
Here's player A and player B, A has an all offensive team and B has a standard team.
Let's ask them a question, what do you do if your infenape is facing off against a porgon-Z.
A: Ok he's probably going to tri-attack since he doesn't have any moves that hit me for SE, so I should probably switch in my lucario to resist the hit and then finish him off on the next round. Unless I observed earlier in the battle that he's the type that likes to predict a lot, in that case he'll probably use hp fighting so I'll switch in my Yanmega... hmm
B: I switch in Blissey.
Don't you want to think about that? It might..
B:I said Blissey.
A's solution may have been more skillful but B's was just as effective.
As for my vote, I'll hold off for now and see the responces this topic gets, my mind can still be changed on this subject.
Of course Wobbuffet takes skill to use, just as anything takes skill to be used. For example, I pair Wobbuffet-Smeargle with a Wisher in case of some of the scenario's you mentioned I can switch out and heal Smeargle for later when the problem Pokemon is out of the way. Also, I do construct my teams to counter potential threats to the Wobb-Smeargle strategy. I do this successfully and I don't consider myself the most skilled player, yet I'm able to pull it off. I could only imagine the implications of a slightly more skilled player doing a more effective set-up with a similar strategy.
My argument has never been that Wobbuffet requires no skill, my argument is that Wobbuffet requires less skill than many, including myself, are willing to accept in the game. I agree with you that the idea that no skill is required using Wobbuffet is ridiculous, but I do believe skill is reduced.
Completely untrue. Wobbuffet + 5 sweepers works obscenely well. TAY's log/team proved this. Wobbuffet had no support. The team was not built around him. No TS protection. You don't need to build a coherent team to abuse Wobbuffet.
Two things. First of all, Wobb/Smeargle set-up isn't really the best way to use Wobbuffet, because introducing the middle man (Smeargle) gives your opponent more time and more chances to ruin Wobbuffet's good work. Second of all, you're doing a very good job of showing everyone how to beat BP Smeargle, but the relevance that has to the topic at hand - Wobbuffet - is virtually nil. Smeargle's frailness and extremely situational success is an issue with or without Wobbuffet.
Meanwhile, cutting Smeargle out of the picture and switching straight into YacheChomp who gets a free Swords Dance is far, far more deadly, and directly a result of Wobbuffet's influence, whereas Smeargle getting pegged several turns after Wobbuffet left the field is... Smeargle's fault, not Wobbuffet's.
I don't see the relevance your final example has to anything, because the degrees of skill individual players are capable of has nothing to do with what Wobbuffet can do almost every time he switches in with virtually no skill exhibited by the Wobbuffet user other than "now is probably a good time to switch him in". Even if they're wrong (let's say you switch that same turn), they'll still probably kill something with him.
Not everything is about you ya know
That aside, I already addressed the "skill reduction" in my post, blissey reduces skill just the same as wobba does (although in a defensive way rather than an offensive one).
Not everything is about you ya know
That aside, I already addressed the "skill reduction" in my post, blissey reduces skill just the same as wobba does (although in a defensive way rather than an offensive one).
Well, I suppose I can't speak for anyone but myself which is probably why I only spoke about myself, and I was using that example because I don't consider myself the most skilled player so I would assume that a skilled player would do a similar, if more elegant, set up than mine. I'll edit my post to make this more clear. I do, to some degree, see the Blissey comparison but Blissey doesn't really allow any form of set-up such as Wobbuffet allowing T-Tar to Dragon Dance because it has Encored a stat-up move.
Player sent out Blissey!
Starmie used Surf (little damage)
Player 2 sent out Machamp!
Blissey used Seismic Toss
See the bolded line. Blissey doesn't break down the very mechanics of the game for all of its foes. I've never seen Blissey encore a Thunderbolt to let Garchomp set up. I've never seen Blissey Mirror Coat a Surf. Blissey stops some special attackers. Cool, so what? Wobbuffet and Blissey are completely uncomparable.
I was only comparing them in terms of their effect on reducing the amount of skill a player puts into their moves. I understand that they are different pokemon with different roles, typings and movesets.
I also understand that you shouldn't leave Blissey in on Machamp.
That Taunter was Azelf, who usually finds itself exploding within the first couple of turns of battle. It's temporary protection at best.
Not like a poisoned Wobbuffet even matters when the whole point of the team is just to set up some sweepers. Get Wobbuffet in on Hippowdon or Blissey and he doesn't care he's just been poisoned by spikes, because he's about to Encore your SR or Thunder Wave and use Safeguard to get Garchomp in unharmed.
Your Blissey example is extremely short-sighted and not really worth pursuing.
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