***[VOTE] The final Wobbuffet "discussion" thread***

the_artic_one said:

lucario uses swords dance
opponent switches in Gliscor

Oh, well then:
Dragonite uses Dragon Dance
Opponent switches in scarfchomp

As you can see, wobba doesn't allow you to do anything special, the only way you sweep with something wobba set up is if they didn't have a counter for it anyway (in which case your opponent has bigger problems than wobuffett). Or if you already took out their counter using a little thing called skill.

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A few problems with this. For one, I know most people using Wobba would take out the Gliscor first like this.

I switch in Wobba on Gliscor.
Gliscor EQs/Knock Offs/whatever

Gliscor uses [move].
Wobba uses Encore.

If he uses a support move/knock off, I encore it and I go to Lucario. This allows me to set up in the face of my counter which means I will more than likely have a shot at killing something else on his team. In turn this means he is open on another front where I can sweep. Should he EQ me I would Encore that and Counter kill him. Then later in the game I can bring Wobba in on another pokemon to set up Lucario and sweep.

Sorry, we're theorymoning. But I think you can see the point. Wobba can allow you to easily kill a counter AND get a risk free set-up.

Tangerine said:

I do see the statistics arguments but at this point, I feel as if it's simply arbitrary - and thus not reasonable. The only reason the statistics argument holds ground is simply because of the current definition of tiers involves usage, a definition that many people in this thread has gone against in saying Wobbuffet is uber. This must imply that there must be something more than what is currently being argued with statistics on a definition that only looks at usage (the relationship between centralization and balance is only a theory and it seems as if this is simply assumed). I feel as if usage is only one side of what could be a much deeper issue, and this is why I believe statistics at this point is simply arbitrary and shouldn't be considered for the sake of this argument.

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I'd have to say that I agree that usage by itself seems lacking, but still I'd consider the numbers as important. That is to say, they do show an objective part of the argument. There may be lurking variables in all of the data (Code of honor, etc) but for all that, I'd say that they are some of the more "fair" indicators of over centralization, which at the moment is a key part of deciding uber or not (Although this may change in the future, to be sure). However, they aren't the greatest indicator, as statistics don't speak, of course.

Tangerine said:

Well I don't want to go into minor details about Skarmory (who only stops SUB SD Chomp, Skarmory takes a major hit if it runs Fire Fang/Blast) so I'll only answer the main argument.

My argument on why Momentum is stopped is simply because all the information you collected up to that point goes out of the window. I'm not advocating the use of Wobbuffet to trap kill, either.

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Well, to be fair, Skarmory does stop it even with Fire Fang, but that has little to do with Wobbs. Now, I don't particularly see how it throws out any information you have. You still know everything, you are merely prevented from switching out, you're going to have to deal with Wobby knowing that it's you versus him at the moment. And as long as you're not recommending him to trap kill, I won't go further into the aspects of that.

Tangerine said:

The reason I say Wobbuffet stops momentum is that when it comes in early game, you're forced to make a guess based on very little information that might have been rendered useless anyway, and it makes it pretty difficult for your opponent to overturn the momentum that was gained from it.

I do realize the flaw in the wording that "Wobbuffet instantly stops momentum" and I apologize for not clarifying the point enough.

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Well, most pokemon are surprises when they come out early game, and you always have to make some guesses in the start of the battle, so that's not an especially strong point. It does slow down momentum, that is true but at the beginning of a match, momentum is never heavily built anyways, it is gained and lost in small quantities.

Tangerine said:

I'm not sure if we can make that kind of comparison of physically sweeping/special walling versus synergy and momentum, unless you can give me a good argument on why that comparison may hold.

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I'm thinking that that is a comparison just waiting to be made. After all, isn't jointly walling attacks and launching an offensive perfectly with a team considered good synergy? Sweeping is definitely a team effort, despite what it appears. It relies on the whole team to work together and gather momentum. Wobbuffet does a little bit of both, namely it slows down the enemy but speeds things on its side, but I would definitely say that it does not do it fast enough nor in such quantities as to make it broken. That last bit is kinda a subjective part, and it differs from game to game though it still remains that synergy and momentum have very much to do with walling and sweeping.

Tangerine said:

I did address this, Wobbuffet can get free turns out of a good chunk of Pokemon.

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Well, that it can, but that's kinda the whole aspect and unique point of him, isn't it? If he didn't have the ability to keep someone in place, he'd be where we say him in GSC (Bottom, bottom, NU).

Tangerine said:

Like I said, this implies on the comparisons between what Blissey can do is somehow equivalent to what Wobbuffet can do. Comparing Pokemon and what Pokemon does to each other is a bit silly, don't you think?

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It appears rather silly at first glance, but Blissey and Wobbufett aren't wholly different. They both, in their own ways, stop the opponent and set up another offensive. It's not the best of comparisons, however.

Tangerine said:

I'm not sure what you are refuting then, since no one intelligent made that argument that "wobbuffet should be banned just because it traps", but the combination of trapping and encore. As I have mentioned before, this is a strawman.

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You are correct, as no other pokemon with a trapping ability gets Encore, it is probably foolish to continue to argue this.

Tangerine said:

Does that really matter at all? And even then, it can stall out recover PP out of Pokemon (no i'm not saying struggle), it can kill choice item users, etc etc etc. How are you measuring what a Pokemon can do anyway and how are you drawing the line between "it can't do much alone" and ...

...this?

What a Pokemon does for a team is a lot more important than what it can do alone, considering you consider what it can do alone when you pick a Pokemon for your team. There is a reason synergy is yelled out as important, I don't think it's fair to use the reason "Wobby doesn't do much alone" as a reason it is not broken since it does hell of a good job boosting it's teammembers.

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Yes, it does do a good job of helping team members. I'm not denying that, nor should anyone. However, other pokemon who do good jobs of helping team members also have some way to fight one on one. Let's take for example Vaporeon: Vaporeon is mainly a special wall support poke who uses Wish/Roar/Haze to heal/help members. It can, and will, use attack moves such as HP Electric, Surf, Ice Beam to stop others cold. "The cornered rat will bite the cat." Wobbs is like a cornered blob of jelly in that sense, no?

Tangerine said:

Does every Pokemon USE rest? Even if Wobbuffet has rest, would any one really use it considering all it needs is encore+ countercoat + tickle/safeguard? I don't see any reason to use rest since that's a pretty dangerous stunt on Wobbuffet's part. Maybe it'll have to pick on Blisseys and then rest off, but the point is, the best way to use it is not to try and stall so it can do what it usually does again and again (although I'd argue it only needs to do it once or twice)

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Every pokemon does not use rest, that is correct. However, considering Wobb only needs say...Countercoat and Encore, Rest would be great to heal up on guys that can't do anything back (Blissey, Tenta, stuff like that). That I feel, would be too much and would be torture giving it that much stalling power, but as it stands it can't even heal.And even if you try not to stall, you're going to have to not instantly do your strategy and wait a bit sometimes, no?

Tangerine said:

But does the fact that it needs more support make it less uber? Does Wobbuffet even NEED support to do what it does? Nope.

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On the first instance, it probably won't die from switching in and won't need support, after that it is just a hassle as if you want it to help you any more, you need to help it first. But yes, a Wobbufett shouldn't have to come in too many times, but more tha

Tangerine said:

But they do it in a different way than Wobbuffet, which is why the entire argument started in the first place.

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Well, yes. Which brings us back to the point that wobbs has a niche role that can be mimicked, but nothing really works the same way.

Tangerine said:

Even if all Garchomp could be was the standard SD Yache Set, I would call it a good Pokemon. Anyway, this will probably detract from the argument and considering "predictability" doesn't really say much about our current state of tiering, let's go on.

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Well yes, predictability isn't a really important point as it stands. It isn't affecting the tiers, true, but the very fact that wobbs does have so little options is important to the pokemon itself. Wobbuffet is one of the easiest pokemon to predict, so that is definitely in the opponent's favor, isn't it? But it's true that we shouldn't dwell on this too much.

What a fine argument you've constructed there with that brilliant blissey example. Big difference here is stuff can actually switch out of blissey, Wobb's logic is "ok, this is a sweeper that does not have taunt and can't 2HKO me, time to switch in and kill it unless I want to save my HP for later on to see if he has something that can counter my endgame sweep." You can't switch out of wobb, and he will not switch in against anything that poses a real threat to him unless it's something that he needs to kill for the team, in which case he does his job anyways. He picks the time, place, and participants for any fight he wants to get into, and that lays too much power into the hands of one player.

This was directed at the arctic one's post btw, I went afk while typing this a few times.

Elevator Music said:

A few problems with this. For one, I know most people using Wobba would take out the Gliscor first like this.

I switch in Wobba on Gliscor.
Gliscor EQs/Knock Offs/whatever

Gliscor uses [move].
Wobba uses Encore.

If he uses a support move/knock off, I encore it and I go to Lucario. This allows me to set up in the face of my counter which means I will more than likely have a shot at killing something else on his team. In turn this means he is open on another front where I can sweep. Should he EQ me I would Encore that and Counter kill him. Then later in the game I can bring Wobba in on another pokemon to set up Lucario and sweep.

If you're talking about killing the Gliscor ahead of time, then yeah that would be using lures (to get the Gliscor out in the first place) and killing counters to your primary strategy which is completely skill.

Sorry, we're theorymoning. But I think you can see the point. Wobba can allow you to easily kill a counter AND get a risk free set-up.

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The thing is, wobba is usually pretty low hp by this point due to taking attacks when he encored, SR, etc., and would end up being finished off by gliscor (at least that's how it ended up whenever i used him).

Kietharr said:

What a fine argument you've constructed there with that brilliant blissey example. Big difference here is stuff can actually switch out of blissey, Wobb's logic is "ok, this is a sweeper that does not have taunt and can't 2HKO me, time to switch in and kill it unless I want to save my HP for later on to see if he has something that can counter my endgame sweep." You can't switch out of wobb, and he will not switch in against anything that poses a real threat to him unless it's something that he needs to kill for the team, in which case he does his job anyways. He picks the time, place, and participants for any fight he wants to get into, and that lays too much power into the hands of one player.

This was directed at the arctic one's post btw, I went afk while typing this a few times.

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Adressed, also:

You... you haven't actually addressed anything. Blissey/Wobb is a poor comparison on every level that totally misses the point. Wobbuffet isn't any worse just because whenever you've used him, you've let him get worn down before he does his job.

the_artic_one said:

Ok, well smeargle sucks right? Let's take him out of the equation:
lucario uses swords dance
opponent switches in Gliscor

Oh, well then:
Dragonite uses Dragon Dance
Opponent switches in scarfchomp

As you can see, wobba doesn't allow you to do anything special, the only way you sweep with something wobba set up is if they didn't have a counter for it anyway (in which case your opponent has bigger problems than wobuffett). Or if you already took out their counter using a little thing called skill.

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then after that, wobbu comes in and fucks over gliscor/scarfchomp

I vote Not Uber.

EDIT: I have changed my status to Uber

From what I understand, an Uber is something that takes little skill to use, and nonetheless completely tips the battle in your favor. Overpowered sweepers like Mewtwo and Attack Deoxys take little skill to dominate an OU
player. A 10-year old with a Mewtwo can unduly threaten an otherwise solid, well played OU team. Not so with Wobuffett. Most Wobbuffet I've encountered either let me set up on it or died to residual damage. Every other one I fought eventually got finished in late game, like any other PKMN
You can't use Wobbuffet to any considerable end unless you know what you're doing.

While we can all agree that Wobbuffet is quite* useful when used properly, there are many Pokemon that can status Wobbuffet, and even more that can deal considerable damage to it. Even the most ardent detractors of Wobbuffet acquiesce that it cannot set up on all OU PKMN.

I will admit that I might have lost many times against Wobbuffet if I didn't use a stall team, but wouldn't that not matter if Wobb was Uber?

Losing one Pokemon very easily and losing the whole game automatically are two different things. Even if Wobbuffet made it so that only a small percentage of Pokemon could beat it, then it would still be counterable. A well designed Baton Pass team can completely destroy you if your starter is too slow or can't counter their own, so that whenever you fight that person, you literally CANNOT stop them from setting up unless you change around your team. I have no problem with that and I have no problem with Wobbuffet.

Also, I really don't see Wobbuffet vs. Wobbuffet being any less annoying than Blissey vs. Blissey.

Regardless of the overwhelming consensus, I have yet to
see hardcore evidence that Wobbuffet provides an unfair
advantage.

And as a last note, even if I'm wrong, and everyone else is right, it seems to me that some people are letting their decision be influenced by their hate for Wobbuffet. Ban Wobbuffet I guess, as long as it's not being banned for the same reasons that people hate Blissey & friends.

Aeroblacktyl said:

then after that, wobbu comes in and fucks over gliscor/scarfchomp

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Adamant Scarfchomp Outrage on standard Wobb:

41.57% - 48.85% ( likely 2ko with SR and SS up)

So it won't come in.


Knock Off Gliscor on standard Wobb not carrying Taunt:

5.94% - 6.90%

If you're willing to take the very low chance of trying to fuck over Gliscor by countering 8 knock off's, be my guest ._.

But in that theory, Garchomp has already killed Dragonite. It gets to come in for free...theorymon much young apprentice? ._.

Also Taunt Gliscor is horrible against Wobbuffet. You stopped it from using Encore, but Counter goes through it.

darkie said:

Player sent out Blissey!
Starmie used Surf (little damage)

Player 2 sent out Machamp!
Blissey used Seismic Toss

See the bolded line. Blissey doesn't break down the very mechanics of the game for all of its foes. I've never seen Blissey encore a Thunderbolt to let Garchomp set up. I've never seen Blissey Mirror Coat a Surf. Blissey stops some special attackers. Cool, so what? Wobbuffet and Blissey are completely uncomparable.

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I completely agree with this statement. Again, this right here explains why Wobb should be Uber. Wobb always has at least 1 Pokemon Ko'ed whether it is directly, or indirectly. It could let Starmie Thunderbolt while Mirror Coating back, or Encoring, and switching to Vire who'll get a free speed boost from Motor Drive. The same works with having Wobb up on Vire for example. It can Counter back for big damage, or Encore a ThunderPunch/Thunderbolt, and switch to Jolteon for Volt Absorb and a free turn to set up.

Again continuing with the Electric attacks, you could Encore a Blissey's Thunder Wave and switch to Chomp giving it a free turn to set up, too dangerous in today's metagame. Also, the same works with Encoring an EQ or Earth Power User, just switch to Mence, and it has a free turn to set up, making it a very dangerous Pokemon making it capable of destroying many Pokemon. In all, Wobb has the power to insure at least one fainted Pokemon. That is why I vote it Uber.

Sorry it took so long, was running calculations for this and other things. Also, if I couldn't vote now, I'm sorry because I didn't think the other one had much explanation and I wanted my vote to go through.

Aeroblacktyl said:

But in that theory, Garchomp has already killed Dragonite. It gets to come in for free...theorymon much young apprentice? ._.

Also Taunt Gliscor is horrible against Wobbuffet. You stopped it from using Encore, but Counter goes through it.

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Ah yes, revenge killing. So in this case, Wobbuffet is your Mamoswine, except he takes 60% damage while doing the same thing.

When did I mention Taunt? And as I said, only with at least 7 countered knock off's do you have a chance of beating Gliscor before he roosts up and you just wasted 50% of your hp for naught. The only Gliscor set which Wobbuffet can beat reasonably well would be Ice Fang / SR / EQ / Roost, but that's meh.

Forgive my short-lived infidelity, master ._.

Wobbuffet is Uber. It completely removes prediction and halts momentum, as others have said.

the_artic_one said:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1276886&postcount=194

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Or while we're theorymonning, why don't we go go....

Wobbuffet Traps Gliscor
Gliscor Roosts to avoid being killed, since you know they have a Heracross.
Wobbuffet Encores. Wobbuffet at this point as the option of Encoring until

1) Roost Runs out of PP, neutering Gliscor's walling ability
2) Gliscor starts attacking it and dies.

For the sake of simplicity lets say this doesnt happen.

Wobby user switches to Heracross. Burn Orb Activates
Heracross Sword Dances, as Gliscor switches out. Pokemon X switches in.
Pokemon X dies, or Heracross Sword Dances again.

It doesn't matter when Gliscor switches back in, since Gliscor doesn't carry AA anyway and it'll only 2hko Heracross because...

Guts Boosted Sword Dance Heracross with Facade does
274 - 323 to max def Gliscor, (CAN ohko with SR down, Gliscor has a good chance of losing with residual damage and loses 100% if it doesnt carry AA) and
547 - 644 with two sword dances.

So basically you take down one Pokemon, and cripple the counter so another Pokemon can sweep.

Yay for theorymon! Let's stop now.

The idea is of course to trap the counter, and have the Pokemon set up on the Counter. Tyranitar seems to be a popular choice with this, of course.

I'd say that they are some of the more "fair" indicators of over centralization, which at the moment is a key part of deciding uber or not (Although this may change in the future, to be sure). However, they aren't the greatest indicator, as statistics don't speak, of course.

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Again this is my main beef with statistics - I don't believe overcentralization is a good measure for ubers - I believe I posted a pretty good definition in the "What is Ubers" thread and that is what I go by :)

Now, I don't particularly see how it throws out any information you have. You still know everything, you are merely prevented from switching out, you're going to have to deal with Wobby knowing that it's you versus him at the moment.

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Lets say you have a Starmie that is trapped by Wobbuffet. You know that he has a Gyarados. Now, this means that you want to save Starmie, but it doesn't matter - Wobbufet will encore, switch in Gyarados (Assuming of course it outspeeds starmie after a DD since those seem to be popular, or it can even get two DDs) Starmie is KO'd by a +2 EQ, and now Gyarados gets a clean sweep.

It didn't matter if you knew you had Starmie or not, whether you saved it or not, your fate was already sealed and that meant you had to figure out an alternative plan to deal with the Gyarados Problem now. You prepared for it? Too bad. Now half your team is swept by Gyarados.

Wobbuffet throws the game of counters out the window in this way.

Well, most pokemon are surprises when they come out early game, and you always have to make some guesses in the start of the battle, so that's not an especially strong point. It does slow down momentum, that is true but at the beginning of a match, momentum is never heavily built anyways, it is gained and lost in small quantities.

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Being surprised by Wobbuffet and being surprised by a Bulky Gyarados is a completely different matter. Wobbuffet popping out leads to the the guessing game situation above, where you either let something set up on it's counter, or you sacrifice that Pokemon that could have been something your opponent wanted gone so he could get a clean sweep. The choice is a guess, based on very little information and even then, the information doesn't matter at this point.

I'm thinking that that is a comparison just waiting to be made. After all, isn't jointly walling attacks and launching an offensive perfectly with a team considered good synergy? Sweeping is definitely a team effort, despite what it appears. It relies on the whole team to work together and gather momentum. Wobbuffet does a little bit of both, namely it slows down the enemy but speeds things on its side, but I would definitely say that it does not do it fast enough nor in such quantities as to make it broken. That last bit is kinda a subjective part, and it differs from game to game though it still remains that synergy and momentum have very much to do with walling and sweeping.

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Sure, but jointly walling attacks and launching an offensive takes most of the team to do it.

Wobbuffet simplifies this way too much (hence the slew of no skill arguments, even though it takes some skill) which is why I believe it's not a fair comparison. Think of Wobbuffet as an instant synergy boost for any sweeper.

Well, that it can, but that's kinda the whole aspect and unique point of him, isn't it

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Which is why there was no complaint of such shenanigans happening until Wobbuffet was unbanned D:

It appears rather silly at first glance, but Blissey and Wobbufett aren't wholly different. They both, in their own ways, stop the opponent and set up another offensive. It's not the best of comparisons, however.

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Well, a lot of pokemon aren't wholly different. The little differences make everything, and I haven't seen a convincing comparison between Wobbuffet and Blissey.

Yes, it does do a good job of helping team members. I'm not denying that, nor should anyone. However, other pokemon who do good jobs of helping team members also have some way to fight one on one. Let's take for example Vaporeon: Vaporeon is mainly a special wall support poke who uses Wish/Roar/Haze to heal/help members. It can, and will, use attack moves such as HP Electric, Surf, Ice Beam to stop others cold. "The cornered rat will bite the cat." Wobbs is like a cornered blob of jelly in that sense, no?

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I would argue Encore has the power to stop others cold. The cornered rat will beat the cat if it knows exactly what the cat is doing, and the cat cannot escape.

Every pokemon does not use rest, that is correct. However, considering Wobb only needs say...Countercoat and Encore, Rest would be great to heal up on guys that can't do anything back (Blissey, Tenta, stuff like that). That I feel, would be too much and would be torture giving it that much stalling power, but as it stands it can't even heal.And even if you try not to stall, you're going to have to not instantly do your strategy and wait a bit sometimes, no?

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Yes but wobbuffet NOT having rest doesn't make it any less Broken, which was the original point.

On the first instance, it probably won't die from switching in and won't need support, after that it is just a hassle as if you want it to help you any more, you need to help it first. But yes, a Wobbufett shouldn't have to come in too many times, but more tha

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....D: it got cut off

I would say Wobbuffet needs to come in once or twice at most, and be used as a sacrifice some time later

but the very fact that wobbs does have so little options is important to the pokemon itself. Wobbuffet is one of the easiest pokemon to predict, so that is definitely in the opponent's favor,

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Just because you know what it does doesn't mean you can stop it - see the entire "You can't prepare for Wobbuffet" arguments. And there's the "Will I be more screwed if I save it or if I sacrifice it to Wobbuffet?" deal, a shot in the dark you can't deal with until you know more pieces of the opponent's team. You're being forced to make this decision too early on limited information

Lyfsaho said:

Ah yes, revenge killing. So in this case, Wobbuffet is your Mamoswine, except he takes 60% damage while doing the same thing. .

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Hmm since when did Mamo get an ability that prevented Garchomp from switching? Mamo can try to revenge kill but you forgot one factor: Switching

Oh also Mamo can revenge kill Garchomp. Wobb allows you to almost 100% take out ANY pokemon on your opponents team.

"Hey X pokemon is the only thing standing in my way of a Y Pokemon sweep"

You have two options to open up that sweep

A) Battle normally and use skill and prediction to ensure X pokemon dies.

B) Send out Wobb. Problem solved. You win now.


While obviously I did not give the best example that can be the case in certain battles when an opponent is incredibly weak to Y pokemon and their only counter is X pokemon. With Wobb X pokemon no longer becomes a factor because you can simply eliminate it at will.

Lyfsaho would you like to explain how Mamoswine can do this since you seem to like to compare the two.

Hey guys let's stop theorymonning

Thanks

my vote is a bit of a tricky one. if ticklefet is allowed then, i am against wobb. if wobb cannot learn tickle, i think it's fine. it can be taken down relatively easily as long as you have a strong dark, bug or ghost move which i find necessary for cress anyways. since shoddy currently does not allow event moves i am for wobb staying in OU.

Could we get some battle logs (posted within code tags) in here to stop all the theorymon-ing? I am tired of people who obviously havent used Wobby extensively and thus lack experience...

Wobbufet completely throws skill out of the window and stops the pace of the battle. As someone in another thread said (Tangerine I think?), it basically gives a free turn to the user. It does not promote skill, therefore I vote Uber.

There is a theoretical aspect to it. It needn't be dismissed as something negative for people to imagine highly possible scenarios that have yet to be documented or to summarize existing battle logs.

Wobbuffet destroys a crucial aspect of the game: switching, and in such countering. Dugtrio, Magnezone, and Probopass have similar abilities, but are limited not only in what the ability affects, but in the pokemon themselves. Magnezone and Probopass can only trap a small number of pokemon, while Dugtrio is extremely frail, falling to almost any kind of solid attack. If they had access to the movepool wobby did, they would be far scarier (yes, magnezone gets mirror coat, but lacks the beastly HP stat.)

Yet my initial statement remains, no one is changing their minds based on the argument.

Hitit4three said:

Could we get some battle logs (posted within code tags) in here to stop all the theorymon-ing? I am tired of people who obviously havent used Wobby extensively and thus lack experience...

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anytime we discuss a pokemon htere's gonna be theorymon, it's all part of the game. how can we discuss any aspect of the game without it being theorymon? you'll need to be careful with battle logs too as they only show one battle.

Meh, I'll post a log. I kinda fail at battling, but I won this using my Wobb team. In the log, my name is Lewis Carroll. Please note that I made some egregious mistakes in that battle, but Wobb solved quite a number of my problems.

Orwell said:

I vote Not Uber.

From what I understand, an Uber is something that takes little skill to use, and nonetheless completely tips the battle in your favor.

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Wait wait wait let's stop right here. So you are saying Wobuffet is Uber, yet you are voting against it? Wobbuffet takes little to NO skill at all to use. As I stated earlier (page 1), "Ontop of that, the way it can simply change the pace of the game, turning the tide in one or two turns is something too powerful".

Overpowered sweepers like Mewtwo and Attack Deoxys take little skill to dominate an OU player.

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Wobbuffet is the same, just not a sweeper.

Most Wobbuffet I've encountered either let me set up on it

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It's fair to say you were versing an/many inexperienced player/s.

Every other one I fought eventually got finished in late game, like any other PKMN.

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Yeah......

there are many Pokemon that can status Wobbuffet, and even more that can deal considerable damage to it.

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I don't understand where you are going with this. Mewtwo gets hit by Sandstream and Poison/Burn so does that make it not uber?

Even the most ardent detractors of Wobbuffet acquiesce that it cannot set up on all OU PKMN.

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If you didn't realise, Wobbuffet is a lot more capable than what you are claiming it to be. It's not always used to get pokemon x to set it. That is merely only one problem with it.

Ontop of that, another flaw in this argument is that with such a vast variety of pokemon to choose from means that not everything can be countered?

I will admit that I might have lost many times against Wobbuffet if I didn't use a stall team, but wouldn't that not matter if Wobb was Uber?

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You don't need to beat it by stalling it out.

In ubers, there are a lot more hard hitters, as well as better things to mess around with over Wobbuffet. OU is not very similar to Ubers at all. I would refrain from comparing them.

Losing one Pokemon very easily and losing the whole game automatically are two different things.

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Really? I always leave the battle when I lose a pokemon... ;-; I thought it meant I lost!!!! This isn't fair wah.

Even if Wobbuffet made it so that only a small percentage of Pokemon could beat it, then it would still be counterable.

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A counter is a pokemon that can switch into another without being taken out as well as threatening the opposing pokemon. By definition, Wobbuffet has no counter.

A well designed Baton Pass team can completely destroy you if your starter is too slow or can't counter their own, so that whenever you fight that person, you literally CANNOT stop them from setting up unless you change around your team. I have no problem with that and I have no problem with Wobbuffet.

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Oh god what the shit lol. Comparing a Baton Pass team to Wobbuffet isn't viable.. I'm not going to type a longer argument for this because it's just simply plain stupid.

Also, I really don't see Wobbuffet vs. Wobbuffet being any less annoying than Blissey vs. Blissey.

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You're behind times man. In DP, if it comes to a situation of Wobbuffet vs. Wobbuffet, you can switch out.

Regardless of the overwhelming consensus, I have yet to see hardcore evidence that Wobbuffet provides an unfair advantage.

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Once again, 'Ontop of that, the way it can simply change the pace of the game, turning the tide in one or two turns is something too powerful'.

In other words, you may have the upper hand due to skill but Wobbuffet can change that in one turn, either by Encoring your stat-up move or simply counter/mirror coat you. This is the 'unfair advantage' they will have over you, to simply put you on the losing 'scale'.

And as a last note, even if I'm wrong, and everyone else is right, it seems to me that some people are letting their decision be influenced by their hate for Wobbuffet. Ban Wobbuffet I guess, as long as it's not being banned for the same reasons that people hate Blissey & friends.

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Trust me, it's not.

Junior said:

Wait wait wait let's stop right here. So you are saying Wobuffet is Uber, yet you are voting against it?

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NO.

"From what I understand, good sir, an Uber is something that takes little skill to use, and nonetheless completely tips the battle in your favor." I stand by that. I don't think Wobbuffet is Uber because I don't think it takes that little skill to use either, and I think that it is beatable through reasonable means. Of course I diasgree with that assessment. Why else would I vote against it?

Junior said:

Wobbuffet takes little to NO skill at all to use.

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What does that have to do with anything? And this one just doesn't pertain to you. A lot of people are using this argument. Regardless of whether or not you think Wobbuffet is uber you must agree it it takes some skill to use.

Junior said:

It's fair to say you were versing an/many inexperienced player/s.

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If Wobbuffet took little or no skill to use, this wouldn't even be an issue. They would use it to full effect regardless of their experience.

A lot of Smogon players need to get off their high horses here. Even if Wobbuffet took little or no skill to use, isn't that true of many other strategies? Are you honestly going to tell me that it takes that long to learn how to use a Pursuit Weavile or DD Gyarados? I'm not comparing them to Wobb, they're different PKMN. What I'm saying is that Wobb is a PKMN that takes relatively as much skill to use as many other OU PKMN. If you think Wobb is that bad, then explain how it dominates other PKMN or overcentralizes the metagame. As far as I can tell this reason IN PARTICULAR is just someone venting.

Junior said:

Wobbuffet is the same, just not a sweeper.

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I don't know...either I legitimately beat Wobbuffet every time I played it, or every one that I played had no idea what they were doing because they had too little experience...please choose.

I should have clarified this better. I wasn't comparing these Ubers to Wobb in terms of strategy, I should have said that these PKMN in particular were so strong that they could get of two or three OU PKMN directly or indirectly regrdless of what OU PKMN the other person used, and regardless of how they used those OU PKMN.

Junior said:

Yeah......

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Just because you have to wait till late game to KO it does not mean it is Uber.

Junior said:

I don't understand where you are going with this. Mewtwo gets hit by Sandstream and Poison/Burn so does that make it not uber?

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No, I'm saying that a regular OU team can beat a well-played Wobbuffet but not a well-played Mewtwo.

Junior said:

If you didn't realize, Wobbuffet is a lot more capable than what you are claiming it to be. It's not always used to get pokemon x to set it. That is merely only one problem with it.

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Then explain the rest please. You were trying to debunk my argument the last I checked, were you not?

Junior said:

Ontop of that, another flaw in this argument is that with such a vast variety of pokemon to choose from means that not everything can be countered?

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As long as there is a large minority of PKMN in OU that can dispose of Wobbuffet indirectly, I am not going to roll over, so to speak, and call Wobbuffet invincible.

Junior said:

You don't need to beat it by stalling it out.

In ubers, there are a lot more hard hitters, as well as better things to mess around with over Wobbuffet. OU is not very similar to Ubers at all. I would refrain from comparing them.

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I was not trying to compare two metagames, or even two PKMN in this case. You mistunderstand me. What I meant was that if Wobb really was strong enough to be Uber, then it would tear all OU teams asunder, not just easily trappable offensive teams. I am also perfectly aware this debate has nothing to do with Wobb's viability in Ubers.

Junior said:

Really? I always leave the battle when I lose a pokemon... ;-; I thought it meant I lost!!!! This isn't fair wah.

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See below.

Junior said:

A counter is a pokemon that can switch into another without being taken out as well as threatening the opposing pokemon. By definition, Wobbuffet has no counter.

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Techinally, this is true. If we're this doing based only the legitimacy of true counters, then yes, Wobbuffet can be considered Uber. However, Wobbufet CAN be beaten by normal teams, and by no means does having Wobbuffet on a team ensure victory. The other 5 PKMN are equally important in their own right as well. Futhermore, there are other OU PKMN that are considered to not have counters. What about Jolteon? Or any fast PKMN with U-turn/Baton Pass? These PKMN are not the same, I KNOW. However it is true that these PKMN warp the rules and institution of countering as well by using their teammates as proxies. You don't just beat Jolteon. You beat it after you take out that Metagross or Rampardos that it became so keen on Agilitypassing to.

Junior said:

Wobbuffet is the same, just not a sweeper.

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It is not the same. These Uber PKMN in particular are so strong that they could get of two or three OU PKMN directly or indirectly regrdless of what OU PKMN the other person used, and regardless of how they used those OU PKMN. A regular OU team can beat Wobb, counters or no. "The same thing but not a sweeper" would literally be something with godly defenses, SEVERAL uncommon support moves like Spikes and Encore, along with access to Recover/Slack Off. And I when I say all of these, I MEAN all of these, not just what Wobb has.

Junior said:

Oh god what the shit lol. Comparing a Baton Pass team to Wobbuffet isn't viable.. I'm not going to type a longer argument for this because it's just simply plain stupid.

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Sigh...I wasn't trying to compare, these two, what I was trying to say was that it is possible for one particular team when played to completely destroy another particular team 100% of the time. Just having Wobbuffet on a team does not equate to this.

Junior said:

You're behind times man. In DP, if it comes to a situation of Wobbuffet vs. Wobbuffet, you can switch out.

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No, I am not behind "the times". I was referring to an earlier comment in which someone partially justfied his "Ban Wobbuffet" argument by saying that they personally were annoyed when a battle ended with just one Wobbuffet against another. As far I can tell that argument had nothing to do with Wobbuffet being Uber or not, so I wanted to challenge it. Sorry for not stating the context behind my statement.

Junior said:

Once again, 'On top of that, the way it can simply change the pace of the game, turning the tide in one or two turns is something too powerful'.

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First off, be more clear. Any PKMN can turn the tide of someones battle for or against them, and we already know that. I'm pretty sure that you're trying to say "Wobbuffet makes it easy to set up a sweep" so let's go with that. The most dangerous thing I've ever seen Wobbuffet accomplish is let a few PKMN get a free switch in, along with getting rid of one of my PKMN. This never troubled me as I had counters for that free switchin PKMN anyway. If I didn't (and had somehow lost the battle because of that), I would have attributed that to my team's weakness or my own prediction skills, more than anything else.

Junior said:

In other words, you may have the upper hand due to skill but Wobbuffet can change that in one turn, either by Encoring your stat-up move or simply counter/mirror coat you. This is the 'unfair advantage' they will have over you, to simply put you on the losing 'scale'.

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Again, all this does is let the opponent get a free swich in, which is quite doable without Wobbuffet or trapping of any kind.

Junior said:

Trust me, it's not.

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Junior said:

Oh god what the shit lol. Comparing a Baton Pass team to Wobbuffet isn't viable.. I'm not going to type a longer argument for this because it's just simply plain stupid.

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Junior said:

Really? I always leave the battle when I lose a pokemon... ;-; I thought it meant I lost!!!! This isn't fair wah.

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The mere fact that a Smogon mod, of all people, is calling my arguments "stupid" instead of explaining their invalidity, and using sarcasm extensively in an otherwise objective argument is proof to me that this "Ban Wobbuffet" position stopped being purely objective a long time ago, regardless of whether or not are there are good arguments for it.

^Orwell, I actually agree with you that Wobb takes skill to bring out its full potential . . .

. . . a full potential which is ridiculously over-powered (see performance of thread's OP on shoddy).

Furthermore, the issue is not that wobbuffet does not take skill, but that even beginner's can use it to very destructive effect. Not to its full effect, but to effect where it can overwhelm even a more skilled player with ease fairly often.

Darkrai or Manaphy take skill to use to full effect, but that doesn't mean that they don't disbalance the OU game.

No, I'm saying that a regular OU team can beat a well-played Wobbuffet but not a well-played Mewtwo.

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Ignoring the rest of the incorrect points in your post (I'll leave those to Junior) this is what I had the biggest problem with simply because it's not true. You seem to have this conception of ubers where they are these unstoppable forces where you just click a move and your opponent's "PKMN" faints. Mewtwo takes a reasonable amount of skill to use and is actually highly counterable in OU, that doesn't mean it SHOULD be OU, just like Wobbuffet shouldn't be OU.

Wobbuffet gives one player an inherent advantage over the other with little skill required to do this (as long as you can click encore you're in the clear!). And the problem with Wobbuffet opposed to other pokemon is that there's no way to reasonably prepare for it. If you have and Infernape weak you could just use a Starmie, Gengar weak: Blissey. Wobbuffet doesn't work that way. There's no way to prepare for it and its effect on a team can be simply devastating. I know this point has been outlined several times already, but it simply irks me that people keep ignoring it.