***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***

I think the deciding factor between uber and ou is whether he changes the metagame in a positive or negative fashion.

I personally don't like the idea of being forced to run bronzong or jirachi or any of the other deoxys "counters" on a team in order to deal with him. For most teams, they don't have too many problems with deoxys, because most of the OU metagame use these pokemon, for good reasons, and for other reasons besides countering deoxys. With the removal of scarf pokemon, several other "threats" to common pokemon become useless. I use to use scarfed roserade to surprise other teams and hit with a modest STAB leaf storm. Deoxys can't take a leaf storm, but he can certainly revenge kill my roserade, without running a choice item himself, without being locked into a move.

Tangerine has described the metagame in terms of gimmick teams and novelty teams. Gimmick teams are failed novelty teams, and novelty teams are teams built to capitalize on the metagame and surprise common teams with unusual pokemon/movesets. When the metagame has too many failed novelty teams, we can say that the metagame is stagnant. I feel that Deoxys-S has a negative impact on novelty teams because he eliminates the ability for many pokemon with good attacking stats but average speed, such as roserade, from running choice scarves because he simply outclasses them.

He doesn't eliminate the viability of scarfed Roserades. You can go ahead and run a scarfed Roserade. Deoxys can't switch in on Leaf Storm, like you said, and it can only revenge kill. When it comes in, you can just switch out.

It does, however, destroy the market for pure offensive teams. If you had that scarfed Roserade out, and nothing to switch to that can take a hit or two, then you do have to sacrifice Roserade. Is destroying completely offensive teams a negative effect on the Metagame? That's up to you. Though, things like Metagross, Jirachi, and CB Mamo ruin Deoxys (and they have their place on offensive teams).

I just don't see his impact/influence as any more powerful then Blissey's, which is why I'm voting for OU. If Blissey was banned from the Metagame, then I would vote Uber for Deoxys.

True, I suppose that wasn't the best example, and I might be giving him too much credit there.

I think I may actually change my vote here. He's an infernape-esque pokemon in a metagame of huge attack power, but he's not a big wall-breaker, rather a sweeper breaker.

So a sweeper pokemon who demolishes sweepers, but stops at walls, and I think at this point, that's the kind of pokemon we need to shift the metagame from pure offense back to a nice medium.

I'm voting for Uber.

Deoxy has too much of an impact on the metagame. It 2hkoing a majority of OUed pokes regardless of moveset. Also the fact that its faster than all the common pursuiters don't help. It would suck if everyone has to carry pursuit metagross to take care of it. Even then, the defensive set shuts down both jirachi(without paralysis) and bronzong. So that leaves..Metagross.

But thunderpup, your making our point. The metagame is supposed to shift naturally as a whole, not because of one pokemon. One pokemon demolishing sweeper teams is destroying that style of play. That is why so many are also in favor of banning Wob. He flat out destroys any strategy... But anyway...

The simplest analogy that I can say is this:

Garchomp, Lucario, Tyranitar, etc. can all be dealt with in all kinds of teams.

Offensive teams can easily revenge Garchomp, as most of the team is faster than him. So usually Garchomp never gets more than 1 kill against them. Offensive teams also can deal with Lucario through intimidates, and the fact that some offensive pokemon such as Yanmega, Mamoswine, Gyarados, and Salamence aren't frail by any means, and can take Extremespeeds, as can Gengar if it lacks Bullet Punch. Offensive teams can deal with Tar also, as Lucario is a great switch-in to CB tar, and DD Tar can be outsped and raped.

Balanced teams handle pokemon by using a mix of offensive pokemon but attempt to have specific counters and ways to deal with pokemon through a defensive core.

Stall teams handle threats by using... well walls!

My best analogy I can give is this and I will try to limit my further posts:

Balanced and Stall teams handle Deoxys-E because they have the counters for him. Period. That is the essence of what they are, and they attempt to defend against most of the metagame, and do not have to change their ways to deal with them. Offensive teams rely on their speed to help them battle through threats like I've listed above, but cannot do that to combat Deoxys-E without adding a counter, essentially changing their strategy and their playing style. This situation is unique to Deoxys-E because he is the only pokemon in OU that can support such a versatile movepool and maintain such a high speed with the freedom to switch attacks. NO OTHER OU POKEMON CAN DO THIS! That is why all of us in favor of banning Deoxys-E to the uber tier say that he is the bane of the "sweeper team" playing style, so that pokemon team combination is no longer viable. For those of you saying, "well, I use him and hes not that great... " its because that style has quietly been phazed out of existence, and is rarely seen now.

RaikouLover is in fact right about team. It was a very effective team, and actually came about as a "experiment" of sorts. However, if I come up against a Deoxys-S, it honestly takes a very bad player for me to walk away with the win. The best I can do most of the time is to turn the match into a guessing game (Yanmega can absorb Superpower, Snorlax special attacks to a certain degree, Tbolt for Mamoswine, ect), and hope that they get low enough on HP for Mamoswines Ice Shard to KO. If my opponent is an idiot, they will switch Deoxys-S into Gyarados, assuming that I will Dragon Dance. Deoxys-S destroys that team, and considering I am the creator and main user of the team, I am qualified to make that statement. I suppose I could give Yanmega Protect and make it Timid, but if I'm going to lose all of that power I may as well replace Yanmega entirely for a different late game sweeper (maybe Deoxys-S actually).

Deoxys-S certainly isn't an automatic 6-0 sweep against the team, but it's the closest thing that you can find to it.

Chris is me]If he climbs the ladder at will said:

I would like to put a stop once and for all to this crock-of-shit, entirely baseless, moronic "destroys offensive teams" bullshit mantra.

DEOXYS HAS NOT AFFECTED OFFENSIVE TEAMS!

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It's most definitly not bullshit. There are different types of offensive teams. Deoxys-S has had a huge impact on the sweeping offense that was once widely used.

Just look at all the usage statistics. Tell me that Deoxys-Speed has significantly affected any usage statistics beyond the rise of Scarf users and the natural evolution of the metagame. It has not. Deoxys has not now, or ever, forced out offensive teams.

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Oh, and you now have statistics that show us combinations of pokemon? We're not arguing usage here, we're arguing about the viable combinations of pokemon. Usages haven't changed much because most OU pokemon are good enough to be used in more than one style of team. All OU pokemon have multiple sets that allow them to do this. Your statistics cannot show us this.

Unless you have a team of TTar, Garchomp, Gyara, Gengar, Heracross, and Salamence, you're fine. In case you are wondering, that means that you are using a pokje weak to STAB, a poke weak to its Shadow Ball with alreayd paper defenses, a poke 4x weak to its only physical move, 2 pokes 4x weak to ice, and a poke 4x weak to TBolt.

OH WAIT! Thats 5 moves! Even a team of 6 of the most used pokemon, all with significant weaks to Deoxys, are not ruined by it, because it can't run 5 moves and thus have perfect 4x weaknesses to its attacks.

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You can't just bust out a team like that as an example, considering you literally put no thought into the team, or the synergy of the team. If you want to collect some sweeping offensive teams that have been built with competitave play and team synergy in mind, and THEN post about it, be my guest.

I would now requets that everybody shut the hell up about Deoxys removing all fats paced offense from the game. All it does is enhance it. Also, If you don't have a counter...use Duggy...Sucker Punch...game over, revenged...

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Yes, because I can just just slap Dugtrio into my team and have it fit. Please shut the fuck up. You can't just throw a pokemon into a team and have it work. Any serious team builder knows this.

I would like to put a stop once and for all to this trash heap of entirely baseless, moronic "destroys offensive teams" mantra.

DEOXYS HAS NOT AFFECTED OFFENSIVE TEAMS!

Just look at all the usage statistics. Tell me that Deoxys-Speed has significantly affected any usage statistics beyond the rise of Scarf users and the natural evolution of the metagame. It has not. Deoxys has not now, or ever, forced out offensive teams. Unless you have a team of TTar, Garchomp, Gyara, Gengar, Heracross, and Salamence, you're fine. In case you are wondering, that means that you are using a pokje weak to STAB, a poke weak to its Shadow Ball with alreayd paper defenses, a poke 4x weak to its only physical move, 2 pokes 4x weak to ice, and a poke 4x weak to TBolt.

OH WAIT! Thats 5 moves! Even a team of 6 of the most used pokemon, all with significant weaks to Deoxys, are not ruined by it, because it can't run 5 moves and thus have perfect 4x weaknesses to its attacks.

I would request that everybody stop using that as an argument, it just isn't true. All Deoxys does is enhance the fast paced offensive nature of some teams. Also, If you don't have a counter...use Duggy...Sucker Punch...game over, revenged...


EDIT: Sorry, had to repost to put some sense to Iggy's reply...

In my reply, Duggy obviously would have osme synergy, because it stops your deoxys e weakness...if you don't have one, then what are you complaining about?

Hitit4three said:

EDIT: Sorry, had to repost to put some sense to Iggy's reply...

In my reply, Duggy obviously would have osme synergy, because it stops your deoxys e weakness...if you don't have one, then what are you complaining about?

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I guess you don't understand synergy. If dugtrio dosen't work with the rest of my team, then it is not synergizing with my team. For simplicitys sake, we'll use my team as an example since it has already been posted in this thread.

Choice Scarf Infernape
Choice Band Gyarados
Choice Scarf Togekiss
Choice Band Snorlax
Life Orb Mamoswine
Substitute Yanmega

This team utilizes resistances to ensure that I can come into, and potentially threaten the biggest threats in OU, while attacking the entire time. Tell me how Dugtrio fits into that team, and keeps the synergy that I have? Oh, that's right, it doesn't.

To put it bluntly, Deoxys-S makes this type of team largly unviable (how many times have I said this?) You suggest adding Dugtrio, but Dugtrio does not work with these types of teams. Dugtrio cannot utilize it's resistances to switch in and out. Dugtrio does not work like that. Bronzong and Jirachi do not keep the same offensive flow going, Metagross is probably the only pokemon that you could convince me that can fit into a sweeping offense team, and work to take out Deoxys-S.

This is specifically entitled: "OFFENSIVE TEAM"

It consists of: Gyara, Mence, Roserade, Magnezone, Dugtrio, and Cresselia.

The Cressy actually does have an all out offensive set, if you want to see, look in the RMT forum.

All I am saying is, if you look at this "OFFENSIVE TEAM", you notice that it most definitely covers Deoxys-Speed, and he never even mentions that he wants to make sure he has it covered. His "OFFENSIVE TEAM" just happens to have it covered multiple ways on its own. HMM...

IggyBot said:

I guess you don't understand synergy. If dugtrio dosen't work with the rest of my team, then it is not synergizing with my team. For simplicitys sake, we'll use my team as an example since it has already been posted in this thread.

Choice Scarf Infernape
Choice Band Gyarados
Choice Scarf Togekiss
Choice Band Snorlax
Life Orb Mamoswine
Substitute Yanmega

This team utilizes resistances to ensure that I can come into, and potentially threaten the biggest threats in OU, while attacking the entire time. Tell me how Dugtrio fits into that team, and keeps the synergy that I have? Oh, that's right, it doesn't.

To put it bluntly, Deoxys-S makes this type of team largly unviable (how many times have I said this?) You suggest adding Dugtrio, but Dugtrio does not work with these types of teams. Dugtrio cannot utilize it's resistances to switch in and out. Dugtrio does not work like that. Bronzong and Jirachi do not keep the same offensive flow going, Metagross is probably the only pokemon that you could convince me that can fit into a sweeping offense team, and work to take out Deoxys-S.

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Your team is not Deoxys weak, assuming you run the sets I would expect you to run...Snorlax can easily revenge Pursuit it, Yanmega can protect Speed Boost Bug Buzz (unless you arent runnign as much speed as I put on my Yanmegas), and Togekiss is definitely not OHKO'd, os just don't switch it into Deo, and you are fine.

Again, as long as Lax doesn't switch into a Superpower...in which case your battle skills are so bad thta you shouldn't be posting here anyway...you have no problems at all.

Considering I've never used Deoxys-S in a battle nor remember having came across one much less had any trouble with one, I can't possibly cast a vote in this thread. However, I would just like to point one thing out:

Some people seem to be drawing parallels between Deoxys-S and Blissey--and for a while I saw the similarities. Deoxys-S keeps pure offense in check just as Blissey keeps pure special offense in check. That was only my thinking, though.

Now I just have to wonder how true that statement was to begin with. After all, pure Special teams have means of dealing with Blissey; the two that most come to my mind are Sub/CM Mismagius and SpecsLuke.

However, what options do pure offensive teams have against Deoxys-S? The prevailing pro-Uber argument seems to be that they have no options. That would mean that Deoxys-S would be more than just a "check;" it shuts down the entire strategy, and the team can't adapt without changing its strategy to some extent. That's what the argument looks like to me, and being ignorant in using Deoxys-S in battle, I would be inclined to agree.

I don't know, though. I thought just by looking at it that Deoxys-S was OU, but now I'm on the fence. I can't possibly cast a vote, but I just wanted to say that much. I could care less either way where Deoxys-S ends up.

Cresselia does not entail an offensive Pokemon since that's not how it's usually used. Not all of us want to have to use Cresselia / Dugtrio on our offensive teams, Cresselia is too weak offensively to put any real pressure on the opponent and Dugtrio allows setup after kills which can be killer to the user considering how important not giving away free turns to the opponent is in offensive team matches. Therefore, maximum synergy is not always acheived by <insert Dugtrio/Deoxys-E counter here>.

Look your team is 'weak' to DX-S. That doesn't make it broken. It doesn't stop ALL offensive team. Run duggy. Or, some method of countering.

IT DOESNT FIT INTO THE TEAM ;_;

Ok then accept your weak. How many times have you built a team and theres a weak, but no way to fix it without causing more problems or whatever? A lot.

I'm not going to build a whole fucking RMT just to show I can make a usable SWEEPER OFFENSEE team that doesn't fear deoxys.

Second. Blissey stops half of what would be all sweeper teams.
I used to have a Scarf Zelf Specs Heatran NP P-Z Etc etc team that was great and climbed latter.. Until Blissey was unbanned. =[ Ban her again.

That was hypothetical, of course. But you get the point.

CardsOfTheHeart said:

Considering I've never used Deoxys-S in a battle nor remember having came across one much less had any trouble with one, I can't possibly cast a vote in this thread. However, I would just like to point one thing out:

Some people seem to be drawing parallels between Deoxys-S and Blissey--and for a while I saw the similarities. Deoxys-S keeps pure offense in check just as Blissey keeps pure special offense in check. That was only my thinking, though.

Now I just have to wonder how true that statement was to begin with. After all, pure Special teams have means of dealing with Blissey; the two that most come to my mind are Sub/CM Mismagius and SpecsLuke.

However, what options do pure offensive teams have against Deoxys-S? The prevailing pro-Uber argument seems to be that they have no options. That would mean that Deoxys-S would be more than just a "check;" it shuts down the entire strategy, and the team can't adapt without changing its strategy to some extent. That's what the argument looks like to me, and being ignorant in using Deoxys-S in battle, I would be inclined to agree.

I don't know, though. I thought just by looking at it that Deoxys-S was OU, but now I'm on the fence. I can't possibly cast a vote, but I just wanted to say that much. I could care less either way where Deoxys-S ends up.

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If you have no experience with Deoxys-S, please keep your theorymon in check... The similarities between Bliss and Deo-S are really a stretch, and could possibly be disregarded...Before you say it shuts down all offense, give me a working, well-rounded, all out, offensive team that doesn't happen to deal with Deo-S....see? You have to actually try and make it Deo-S weak. Think about that for a second...

imperfectluck said:

Cresselia does not entail an offensive Pokemon since that's not how it's usually used. Not all of us want to have to use Cresselia / Dugtrio on our offensive teams, Cresselia is too weak offensively to put any real pressure on the opponent and Dugtrio allows setup after kills which can be killer to the user considering how important not giving away free turns to the opponent is in offensive team matches. Therefore, maximum synergy is not always acheived by <insert Dugtrio/Deoxys-E counter here>.

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You missed my point. I was told to find an all out offensive team, and I did. It is literally entitled "OFFENSIVE TEAM". I don't know what better example there could be. If you want to make one, see my comment to CotH.

Why do people keep saying Yanmega is a Deoxys-E counter!!!! If it gets in on a Supwerpower it has to protect TWICE to be faster than deoxys, and the second protect only has a 50% chance of working. Not only that, if you DO get the second protect, im just gonna switch out and fuck your team over later.

And another point is that even if Iggy's team (speaking for offensive teams) can survive a Deoxys-E onslaught, multiple pokemon are so battered that they loose their switch in rights for the rest of the battle. One pokemon shouldn't be a COMPLETE menace to a style of the team. Deoxys-E messes with the flow, the strategy, and deals some heavy damage. What if Deoxys-E is expert belt (which is not rare, btw)??? Now your looking at continuous switching with absolutely no progress. Hell, you can't even touch it <--- which is precisely the point.

And a further note hit4three, he said Substitute Yanmega, not protect Yanmega. And how the hell are you gonna tell the user of a team what its weaknesses are?

Originally Posted by Fat Logann

Second. Blissey stops half of what would be all sweeper teams.
I used to have a Scarf Zelf Specs Heatran NP P-Z Etc etc team that was great and climbed latter.. Until Blissey was unbanned. =[ Ban her again.

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Are you fucking kidding me??? Blissey really walls Weavile, Infernape, Garchomp, Salamence, Gyarados, Electivire, Mamoswine, Lucario.... all of which were prime participants on sweeper teams...

Originally Posted by Fat Hitit4three

I don't know what better example there could be. If you want to make one, see my comment to CotH.

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I gave you one, and the creator already explained the situation.

Adding <Deoxys-E> counter on an offensive pokemon is overcentralizing. Period. Offensive teams aren't supposed to "counter" anything, because that is not how they are played. Do you guys even know what an offensive team looks like??? Here's one: This was Jesiah's in his warstory vs. Surgo:

DD Gyarados, Standard Infernape, Mixed Salamence, Tyraniboah, CS Garchomp, CB Metagross.

How does it counter Deoxys? Metagross is the only thing that stands a chance. He mentioned that his Metagross was mainly for blowing up on shit. If another pokemon is on this team in Metagross' slot (which is likely, as I usually don't see him on sweeper teams and I think Weavile would have helped his Starmie weakness), it is the easiest 6-0 in the world. WITH NO ATTACK BOOSTS OR SET UP REQUIRED, Deoxys-E claims the title of the only pokemon in OU that can do that kind of damage to such a team, rendering it useless. Even if he were to slap a Scarf on ALL 5 pokemon, it still loses 5-0. Teams like this were dominant in the begining of the Metagame, and just get ripped apart

Hitit4three said:

This is specifically entitled: "OFFENSIVE TEAM"

It consists of: Gyara, Mence, Roserade, Magnezone, Dugtrio, and Cresselia.

The Cressy actually does have an all out offensive set, if you want to see, look in the RMT forum.

All I am saying is, if you look at this "OFFENSIVE TEAM", you notice that it most definitely covers Deoxys-Speed, and he never even mentions thta he wants to make sur ehe has it covered. His "OFFENSIVE TEAM" just happens to have it covered multiple ways on its own. HMM...

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You just gave me an example of the now very popular bulky offensive teams. That is not what I'm talking about, you should know that. I'm talking about sweeping offensive teams. There is a very big difference. If you want to talk about that team specifically, you'll notice he's using a Bulky Gyarados set, and a max HP, max defense Cresselia. He's also running 172 HP on Magnezone, who is also naturally bulky. This does not fit the type of team I am talking about.

I'm talking about teams that rely your opponent harder, faster than they hit you. I'm talking about teams that, by the very nature of play, have no defense against Deoxys-S, unless of course you want to change the team around drastically. I'm talking about teams that Dugtrio does not work with, because you cannot just slap a pokemon in and have it work.

hitit4three said:

Your team is not Deoxys weak, assuming you run the sets I would expect you to run...Snorlax can easily revenge Pursuit it, Yanmega can protect Speed Boost Bug Buzz (unless you arent runnign as much speed as I put on my Yanmegas), and Togekiss is definitely not OHKO'd, os just don't switch it into Deo, and you are fine.

Again, as long as Lax doesn't switch into a Superpower...in which case your battle skills are so bad thta you shouldn't be posting here anyway...you have no problems at all.

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Right, I forgot that you have more experience with my team than I do. I forgot that you know my team better than I do. Yanmega is using Substitute, this is to sub down to a Petaya Berry for late game sweeping that this team really enjoys. Besides, you seem to forget that Modest Yanmega doesn't outspeed Deoxys-S after a speed boost. You also don't seem to know that even Timid Yanmega doesn't outspeed all Deoxys-S sets after a speed boost. I can't just go around throwing Snorlax into Deoxys-S's Superpower either, considering Snorlax is actually a very vital part of the team.

CardsOfTheHeart said:

However, what options do pure offensive teams have against Deoxys-S? The prevailing pro-Uber argument seems to be that they have no options. That would mean that Deoxys-S would be more than just a "check;" it shuts down the entire strategy, and the team can't adapt without changing its strategy to some extent. That's what the argument looks like to me, and being ignorant in using Deoxys-S in battle, I would be inclined to agree.

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So, if the argument others are making is what you state it is, that Deoxys completely shuts down all-out-offense teams, then the opponsing side is clearly wrong. Deoxys-S without EV investment is frail and weak to Sucker Punch, Crunch, Shadow Ball, Megahorn, and the like. Being able to score very fast decently powered SE hits is how Deoxys S tries to "shut down pure offense".

I'd like to restate this again: The problem isn't with Deoxys-S or pure offensive teams. It's that your team is weak to Electric / Ice / Fighting, moves which can easily be run on the same Pokémon and with Motor Drive or Choice Scarf to boost Speed. I'm still unclear as to the argument for HOW Deoxys-S shuts down all-out offense. By scoring SE hits that are fast? Medicham can do that with a Choice Scarf, Vire can do that with a Choice Scarf, Gengar can do that with a Choice Scarf... surely these Pokémon wouldn't be broken if you lowered their offensive power significantly and allowed them to switch moves.

When you add a new, somewhat unique Pokémon to a metagame, there are bound to be teams that are weak to it. That's not really an argument for something being Uber though. Deoxys-S surely isn't a centralizing, gamebreaking force. We have usage statistics to show absolutely no radical change since Deoxys-S's induction into OU. We don't have people whining about him as much as other threats like Wobba and Chomp. (Note: IM NOT SAYING THAT THEYRE ON THE SAME LEVEL. I'm comparing how much people complain about being beaten by them.)

Deoxys-S really is a mediocre Pokémon. It's a jack of all trades, master of the ones that require less offense and more Speed. He has a crazy big movepool, average attacking stats, poor defenses, Speed, and little use on Shoddy. He's been within one or two slots of BL for a long time, the usage stats haven't changed, and he clearly isn't extremely good. Otherwise, people would use him. Usage is the most unbiased, convincing argument you can make in Deoxys-S favor.

When Deoxys-S was first being tested, I thought he was one of the "tipping the scales" pokemon that was right between OU and Ubers. As I've used him (in multiple teams, everything from a Spikes set to Choice Banding), I've found that he's quite simply not broken at all. He's basically the OU equivalent of Luvdisc (NU play) and Electrode (UU play).

IggyBot said:

You just gave me an example of the now very popular bulky offensive teams. That is not what I'm talking about, you should know that. I'm talking about sweeping offensive teams. There is a very big difference. If you want to talk about that team specifically, you'll notice he's using a Bulky Gyarados set, and a max HP, max defense Cresselia. He's also running 172 HP on Magnezone, who is also naturally bulky. This does not fit the type of team I am talking about.

I'm talking about teams that rely your opponent harder, faster than they hit you. I'm talking about teams that, by the very nature of play, have no defense against Deoxys-S, unless of course you want to change the team around drastically. I'm talking about teams that Dugtrio does not work with, because you cannot just slap a pokemon in and have it work.

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Let me try a new route...I think we can all agree that an Uber is a poke that so naturally and heavily tips the scales in an OU battle that a team in the hands of a novice has a large advantage over a more experienced battler with an OU team. Deoxys simply does not do that.

Hitit4three said:

If you have no experience with Deoxys-S, please keep your theorymon in check...

I am. I wasn't even planning to post in this thread until I kept seeing the Blissey - Deoxys-S comparisons and actually thought about it. Something just wasn't right about it...

The similarities between Bliss and Deo-S are really a stretch, and could possibly be disregarded...

Agree 100%

Before you say it shuts down all offense, give me a working, well-rounded, all out, offensive team that doesn't happen to deal with Deo-S....see? You have to actually try and make it Deo-S weak. Think about that for a second...

I'm not the one making that argument. I'm just saying what I perceived the argument to be. If I were you, I'd debate the people actually making the argument such as Iggy and IPL.

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*gets out of the way for good

RaikouLover said:

And a further note hit4three, he said Substitute Yanmega, not protect Yanmega. And how the hell are you gonna tell the user of a team what its weaknesses are?

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By assuming certain sets, asking him ot tell me if I am wrong, and analyzing the team. He is telling me that his team cannot deal with Deoxys-S, and that means he either has a couple of very odd sets, or he is not a good battler at all. :)

Chris is me said:

and allowed them to switch moves.

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Do you NOT understand how important the ability to switch moves is?

The drawback to choice items is that after they are used, they can potentially mean a turn of free setup. That's what keeps them in check, especially with Choice Scarf.

Deoxys-E has the speed of a high-end Choice Scarfer, without actually having to RUN Choice Scarf, and can hit 72% of the OU metagame for super-effective damage. With Deoxys-E there is no possibility for setup, as while Medicham would be forced to switch by the next pokemon that comes in after it hits something, Deoxys-E can simply hit it with a super-effective move, because it can actually switch moves.

Ancien Régime said:

Do you NOT understand how important the ability to switch moves is?

The drawback to choice items is that after they are used, they can potentially mean a turn of free setup. That's what keeps them in check, especially with Choice Scarf.

Deoxys-E has the speed of a Choice Scarfer, without actually having to RUN Choice Scarf, and can hit 72% of the OU metagame for super-effective damage. With Deoxys-E there is no possibility for setup, as while Medicham would be forced to switch by the next pokemon that comes in after it hits something, Deoxys-E can simply hit it with a super-effective move, because it can actually switch moves.

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But Deo-E relies so heavily on that supereffectiveness because sometimes even the 2x weak is not enough (Heatran...) and its attacks are so generally weak. Lets remember that unless you have something with thinner-than-paper defenses, a neutral hit from Deoxys, in addition to LO recoil (without which it becomes REALLY weak) will allow you to kill Deo right back.


Also, are you making up that 72% statistic, or do you actually have some evidence ot back it up? If so, please share it with me, I would like to know.

i honestly think the majority of d-e users on shoddy do not use it properly. you simply cannot break this thing out in its early stages. its type coverage makes it pretty much impossible to stop late game. the only slight counters to it are the psychic-steels, scarf chomp/gengar or a revenge killing sucker puncher. i think that's too much to ask since none of them can take repeated beatings (the opponent can switch it out too). therefore i believe that deoxys-e is uber.

Hitit4three said:

Let me try a new route...I think we can all agree that an Uber is a poke that so naturally and heavily tips the scales in an OU battle that a team in the hands of a novice has a large advantage over a more experienced battler with an OU team. Deoxys simply does not do that.

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No, we can't agree on this. If this was true, then why are these two pokemon even up for debate? Deoxys-S does tip the favor against certain styles of playing, a point that so far you have not been able to actually refute. You and Logann both have given me "use Dugtrio". Get some experience with the type of team I am talking about before trying to tell me what to use. If you had actually any experience, you would know that Dugtrio does NOT fit into sweeping offensive teams.

If you take a look at Deoxys-S's counters, the only thing that MAY be able to fit into the teams that I'm talking about is Metagross. I'll list them below for your convenience.

Metagross, Jirachi, Bronzong, Spiritomb, Dusknoir, Swampert. Yes, these have been established as Deoxys-S counters, there is no denying that. I've never said that Deoxys-S is uncounterable. However, try fitting one of those pokemon into the type of team I have been talking about through this whole thread. If you do, you'll find that these pokemon will not work well, considering they change the entire pace of the game. Sweeping offense teams hit hard, and they hit fast. There is no time to worry about countering pokemon, it's all about getting a pokemon in, and attacking with it. It is high pressure, high offense, fast paced battling. Deoxys-S takes advantage of this by outspeeding just about every pokemon used in these types of teams (barring Scarf Gengar). Deoxys-S also has the power needed to OHKO many of these pokemon, and if it can't OHKO, it will cripple the pokemon to a point where Deoxys-S probably did its job anyways.

Feel free to continue telling me to "just use Dugtrio" and that "Deoxys-S doesn't fuck up sweeping offensive teams" You have yet to post any proof of this.

Ok, here's a couple of my former laddering teams, both having reached #1 in their own right:
Scarf Zapdos, Band Heracross, BoahTar, ScarfChomp, Forretress, and Gliscor (jrrrrrrr also used this team to get to #1, it can be seen here

Black Sludge Gengar, Explosion Magnezone, Heracross, Salamence, Gyarados, Metagross, a team I once posted for rating (unfortunately the thread got purged, but some older users like MoP might recall this team) was another team I used. What these two teams have in common besides having a good fast set paced game is that Deoxys-E has many, many points in which to come in on and pose a huge threat as both teams are teams that primarily rely on "resistances" and not bulk to win games. Forretress and Metagross go only so far to stop Deoxys-E, being unable to switch in that easily to Deoxys-E and especially considering the fact that Deoxys-E likes showing its face most after most Pokemon are weakened/gone as a cleaner.

I have used Deoxys-E for several months on ladder, since I reversed my "boycott" viewpoint on Wobbuffet and Deoxys-E in late February, and after doing so, my Doorman account rose to #1 on the ladder and held it for all of March and April (with the exception of battling goofball and Aurastorm for the #1 spot) thanks to that one team. In May, I took most of it off from laddering, but I did make a new account to see how quick I could get to #1, using the same team as before (posted here and got to ladder's #1 spot with it after two days of laddering with anajalim. And now, in June, I've managed to take my "imperfectluck" name to ladder's #1 spot with this team again. It is simply a team that performs like no other I've ever made in terms of success rate, simply because Wobbuffet is great against stallers and Deoxys-E against offense, forming a duo that can simply destroy most team strategies out there with little effort. Deoxys-E is by and large the single best cleaner in the game, in my opinion, and the only Pokemon that is able to fulfill this role.

RaikouLover said:

Are you fucking kidding me??? Blissey really walls Weavile, Infernape, Garchomp, Salamence, Gyarados, Electivire, Mamoswine, Lucario.... all of which were prime participants on sweeper teams...

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No, you misunderstood me Lover of Raikous. That's my point. All offense teams are more Physically oriented. And not the opposite, due to one pokemon. Blissey. How is that any different. Blissey does a good deal of crippling all offense just as much as DS-X does.