***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***

I simply felt that he was stating that the impact of Deoxys-E was positive in that it was neutering a previously dominant style; my point was that it was not inherently dominant over other types, just far more viable than it is now.

I was talking to Tangerine about Deoxys-E and a lot of the arguments that I am reading in this thread. I definitely don't agree with anything regarding Deoxys-E being uber.

<judgement> the problem that i am seeing is that people are just talking about teams and not how people actually battle
<judgement> they talk about offensive style teams but they dont talk about how the teams are actually used

Offensive teams are based on resistances and prediction. For all of you who talk about how "Deoxys-E completely dominates offensive teams," consider how these teams are used and how Deoxys-E is actually utilized. Sure, Deoxys-E can hit a lot of Pokemon for super-effective damage. That doesn't mean that it will destroy them easily. Let's consider a common Deoxys-E set:

Deoxys-E @ Expert Belt
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 160 Atk/252 SpA/96 Spe
Hasty nature (+ Spd, - Def)
- Psychic
- Superpower
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

Those EVs translate to stats of 241 HP, 266 Attack, 194 Defense, 289 Special Attack, 216 Special Defense, and 465 Speed. The only statistic that really stands out there is the Speed. The HP is terrible and the two attacking stats aren't really that powerful. Of course, Deoxys-S recieves a significant boost from Expert Belt.

Considering the fragility of Deoxys-E, it really isn't going to stay in for long. This isn't something that can just come in and attack. It requires a player to bring it in at opportune moments and select the right attack.

A lot of the arguments that I have been reading are theorymon. The only arguments that are even logical are the ones brought about by battlers who bring in their own experience, like Iggybot and IPL.

Deoxys-E is primarily used as a lategame sweeper. It is brought in later in the game when the opponent has been weakened and more of the opponent's team is known. This allows the Deoxys-E user to usually correctly predict an opponent's action and choose one of four attacking moves.

Here's an example:

I didn't bring in Deoxys-E until I was sure that it would be able to do its job.

I have swept teams with Deoxys-E, but that was later on in the battle when the main threats were gone. When the main threats are gone, a Pokemon is able to sweep.

Users like Hitit4three are just saying things without providing the experience that proves them right. One could say all they want about "statistics" but that doesn't mean anything. The purpose of those statistics was to determine what is OU and what is BL. Using them in cases like this is just twisting them to show a correlation where one does not actually exist.

Deoxys-E is not uber. It is a Pokemon that is clearly meant to be brought in under certain conditions so that it can function properly like any other Pokemon.

It is beatable, too. Those people at the top of the ladder clearly can work around and defeat Deoxys-E. Knowledgable players who manage the game well can almost always find a way to win. If they can't, then they just need to adjust. Don't talk about how one Pokemon completely dominates a strategy, because it doesn't. No Pokemon can do that, because there is always a way to win. Based on my experience with Deoxys-E, the votes for it to be Uber are by players who have faced it and have not bothered to adjust and find a different way to play the game. So what if you have to change your style of play? You want to win, right? Then find a new method, because your old one doesn't work.

Judgement, just throwing this out there, but, Aerodactyl would've survived that Ice Beam...

Deoxys-S is uber, primarily due to the fact that it not only weakens certain pokemons and items (mainly choice scarf), but because it completely ruins an entire style of play.

EvilBob said:

Deoxys-S is uber, primarily due to the fact that it not only weakens certain pokemons and items (mainly choice scarf), but because it completely ruins an entire style of play.

Click to expand...

Umm, be honest here, you didn't read Judgment's post at all did you?

i haven't played in a bit, but i always felt that 'overcentralization' is an issue in this kind of decision, and from what i gathered from playing on shoddy during its free deoxys-e phase is that it did NOT overcentralize the metagame. it's just another fast (albeit, considerably faster) moderately heavy hitter. it wins battles, but only if you let it.

preparing for deoxys is just the same as preparing for any other 'heavy hitting' pokemon like garchomp or infernape. it gets more type coverage in beams and bolts but it still remains a mediocre defender and generally easy to get rid of, in my experience.

i say not uber.

mind you, i wouldn't have moved to move it out of its spot in ubers just because it was always there anyway, but i guess that's the kind of change that makes this metagame fresh and interesting. there's nothing wrong with changing old rule, if that's what a lot of people have issue with.

I had previously voted Deoxys uber because of the Cosmic Wall set (I never had any problem with the standard bolt/beam/power/boost set in OU). I felt that the combination of taunt + pressure + CP + recover was too much for OU to deal with; two serene grace pokemon aren't enough. However, I forced some dork to use it over and over against me today, and i'm now willing to retract my vote on the grounds that it only gets one attack.

I do feel that this set will rise in popularity soon and will perhaps one day cause another one of these threads, but as of right now I can't call Deoxys uber, so i'm changing my vote. Deoxys is not uber.

Thats two of these threads i've changed my vote on. I'll never vote to leave wobb legal though, so two out of three ain't bad.

Judgement said:

I definitely don't agree with anything regarding Deoxys-E being uber.

<judgement> the problem that i am seeing is that people are just talking about teams and not how people actually battle
<judgement> they talk about offensive style teams but they dont talk about how the teams are actually used

Offensive teams are based on resistances and prediction. For all of you who talk about how "Deoxys-E completely dominates offensive teams," consider how these teams are used and how Deoxys-E is actually utilized. Sure, Deoxys-E can hit a lot of Pokemon for super-effective damage. That doesn't mean that it will destroy them easily. Let's consider a common Deoxys-E set:

Deoxys-E @ Expert Belt
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 160 Atk/252 SpA/96 Spe
Hasty nature (+ Spd, - Def)
- Psychic
- Superpower
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

Those EVs translate to stats of 241 HP, 266 Attack, 194 Defense, 289 Special Attack, 216 Special Defense, and 465 Speed. The only statistic that really stands out there is the Speed. The HP is terrible and the two attacking stats aren't really that powerful. Of course, Deoxys-S recieves a significant boost from Expert Belt.

Considering the fragility of Deoxys-E, it really isn't going to stay in for long. This isn't something that can just come in and attack. It requires a player to bring it in at opportune moments and select the right attack.

A lot of the arguments that I have been reading are theorymon. The only arguments that are even logical are the ones brought about by battlers who bring in their own experience, like Iggybot and IPL.

Deoxys-E is primarily used as a lategame sweeper. It is brought in later in the game when the opponent has been weakened and more of the opponent's team is known. This allows the Deoxys-E user to usually correctly predict an opponent's action and choose one of four attacking moves.

I didn't bring in Deoxys-E until I was sure that it would be able to do its job.

I have swept teams with Deoxys-E, but that was later on in the battle when the main threats were gone. When the main threats are gone, a Pokemon is able to sweep.

Users like Hitit4three are just saying things without providing the experience that proves them right. One could say all they want about "statistics" but that doesn't mean anything. The purpose of those statistics was to determine what is OU and what is BL. Using them in cases like this is just twisting them to show a correlation where one does not actually exist.

It is beatable, too. Those people at the top of the ladder clearly can work around and defeat Deoxys-E. Knowledgable players who manage the game well can almost always find a way to win. If they can't, then they just need to adjust. Don't talk about how one Pokemon completely dominates a strategy, because it doesn't. No Pokemon can do that, because there is always a way to win. Based on my experience with Deoxys-E, the votes for it to be Uber are by players who have faced it and have not bothered to adjust and find a different way to play the game. So what if you have to change your style of play? You want to win, right? Then find a new method, because your old one doesn't work.

Click to expand...

Do you see how the parts of your post that I bolded blatantly contradict your reasoning for why you think it isn't uber (hint: read the two sentences I underlined by themselves and you might notice something wrong....)?

You say that offensive teams which rely on resistances and prediction can easily defeat something that hits nearly every offensive threat for super effective damage after outspeeding them. Why would anybody talk about offensive teams without knowing how they are used? They wouldn't know the style of the team unless they played it out and know what the goal is. Your whole argument is that "people arent talking about how they battle" and then you go on to dismiss the people talking about how they battle off as just theorymon. Saying that "it just doesnt beat offensive teams" is just as worthless as the arguments that you are discrediting, especially when the next several paragraphs go on to explain exactly why it beats offensive teams. THEN you say that Deoxys-Speed allows the user to easily predict their opponent! It removes thought from everyday situations in battle.

Originally Posted by Fat Cloud

i haven't played in a bit, but i always felt that 'overcentralization' is an issue in this kind of decision, and from what i gathered from playing on shoddy during its free deoxys-e phase is that it did NOT overcentralize the metagame. it's just another fast (albeit, considerably faster) moderately heavy hitter. it wins battles, but only if you let it.

preparing for deoxys is just the same as preparing for any other 'heavy hitting' pokemon like garchomp or infernape. it gets more type coverage in beams and bolts but it still remains a mediocre defender and generally easy to get rid of, in my experience.

i say not uber.

mind you, i wouldn't have moved to move it out of its spot in ubers just because it was always there anyway, but i guess that's the kind of change that makes this metagame fresh and interesting. there's nothing wrong with changing old rule, if that's what a lot of people have issue with.

Click to expand...

With all due respect cloud, if you havent played in a bit, how can you note changes in the metagame?

Anyway, the point is that offensive teams cannot prepare for deoxys without changing their style. That is the main focus of the argument that we keep repeating over and over again. And since they can't prepare, they are no longer viable and have been phazed out.

lmao, offensive teams are no longer viable and have been phazed out?

I think you need to rewrite that part, RaikouLover, because the people who initially said that are now talking about a specific type of offensive team, sweeping offense or whatever the hell that is.

Evidently "Sweeping offense" is being phased out

You're right. A lot of people label bulky offensives such as Gyarados, Tyranitar, Garchomp, etc. as "offensive teams" but I'm talking about when teams were filled with Infernapes, Weaviles, and other paper-thin fast ass sweepers.

Ok, to clarify, how Deoxys-E differs from Aerodactyl in RSE is that there is indeed existence of a Choice Scarf in DP, making Deoxys-E shine all the more, Deoxys-E's attacks all have good BP and good accuracy, and Deoxys-E hits from both sides of the spectrum. How Deoxys-E functions differently as a revenge killer compared to other revenge killers and lowers skill is that it takes little to no thought to be able to switch attacks on the fly without being locked into a move, essentially forcing your opponent to switch into a Deoxys-E "safe" Pokemon like Scizor or Swampert which can be beat with a few move adjustments like HP Fire or Grass Knot anyways (If Lucario can run HP Ice just for Gliscor I see no reason why not use moves like HP Fire.) Every other speedy revenge killer with a Scarf requires thought to use, there is a risk associated with the Choice Scarf and that is locking yourself into a move. There is no risk with using Deoxys-E, therefore it is a Pokemon that is detrimental to the health of the metagame by lowering skill.

The Wise and Venerable ImperfectLuck said:

There is no risk with using Deoxys-E, therefore it is a Pokemon that is detrimental to the health of the metagame by lowering skill.

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Uh...so assuming I can get past the whole using Deoxys-S has no risk (which god damn is hard, since there is PLENTY of risk involving the usage of Deoxys-S, I mean, it is a Pokemon with finite stats and weaknesses, right?), how does using something with no risk reduce skill?

I understand that a facet of skill in competitive Pokemon is risk management, but skill also is involved in many other ways as well. But ignoring that for a second...how is using a no risk (again, extremely difficult to accept this statement) tool lowering skill?

If a part of skill is risk management, then you are being skillful by using something with no risk. Seems fine to me.

To me, Pokemon should be a game about risk-reward management. The reward for using Deoxys-E is a larger payoff than using another Pokemon in its slot on your team for its function to revenge kill, since no other Pokemon can do the job Deoxys-E can. If there was a move invented that was Dragon type, had 48 PP, and 200 BP, and +1 Priority, would you consider it "skillful" to say that using that "has no risk" and is good for the health of the metagame since it is a move with "no risk" associated with it? Seems fine to me.

imperfectluck said:

To me, Pokemon should be a game about risk-reward management. The reward for using Deoxys-E is a larger payoff than using another Pokemon in its slot on your team for its function to revenge kill, since no other Pokemon can do the job Deoxys-E can. *ignoring the irrelevant speculation*

Click to expand...

If you are saying it should only be about risk-reward management, I have to disagree. If you are saying that should be a significant factor, I agree.

As for the second sentence...so what? Deoxys-S does what it does the best. Great. What's your point? A little clarification here (since if we leave it simply at where you have it, well, Blissey is the best special attack stopper, Shuckle is the best neutral mixed wall in Sand, Abomasnow is the best Hail starter...etc. etc.)

The third part...*edited by aldaron*

I hardly see how it's irrelevant, but do you mind taking our personal arguments out of this topic and into PM? This topic could use less sarcasm and more actual debate.

Um, what are you talking about? *edited by aldaron*

I am asking you to clarify a point. You said something about Deoxys-S that I feel is wrong, and I am asking you clarify it.

*edited by aldaron* and please make a relevant damn point.

You say that Deoxys-S does its job better than anyone else...great...what the hell does that mean?

You still haven't clarified this...

ImperfectLuck said:

There is no risk with using Deoxys-E, therefore it is a Pokemon that is detrimental to the health of the metagame by lowering skill.

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...and when I ask you to clarify it you *edited by aldaron* make this about making things personal and being sarcastic?

*edited by aldaron*

By its job, let me restate this: the job that Deoxys-E does better than any other Pokemon is having the speed that it does without the use of an item (Choice Scarf) that limits it to one attack only.

OK, now how is doing a job better than other Pokemon grounds for banning?

Kyogre does a CM set better than Suicune can. Should Kyogre not be banned?

Deoxys-E makes other Scarfers not as desirable to use for general-purpose revenge killers. Note that I am not saying that this makes Choice Scarf unuseable, it's still very much so useable to counter stuff like SD Lucario, or simply for surprise purposes.

This is a statement that is my opinion formed after many months of laddering on Shoddy both with and without Deoxys-E. I'm not even hoping to convince you, that would be impossible with the way you feel towards me right now. I'd rather convince people sitting on the fence with my logic and things called analogies.

We can go back and forth calling each other's opinions wrong as much as you want, or I suggest we take this argument to PM.

So does your first statement imply that everything that does a job the best should be banned? I don't see how it is relevant unless you are saying that.

Your second statement says that X has its role changed. So what?

It's great that you have an opinion, and you can think whatever you want, but again it isn't really relevant.

Your fourth statement is wrong because we are looking to come to a truth. It is also wrong because for this current exchange I haven't said anything, just questioned you. You keep trying to divert my questions with some irrelevant statement though =/

Simply your own opinion or using ad hominem attacks don't make your opinions fact, Aldaron. I'm simply posting my views and asking for other users' agreement or discussion on this. I never stated that these were concrete facts, only that they were my observations. Or do you think that you've laddered more than me?

What are you *edited by aldaron*...I am asking you to clarify your points...Stop making this something it isn't lol. I'm not even considering agreeing or disagreeing with you right now. I want you to clarify your points because they aren't clear to me.

You're dancing around this whole job thing...you made a Kyogre analogy, but that only implied that you felt that something that does a specific job the best should be banned, which is obviously nonsensical.

Also, I do believe I have laddered more than you. But again, that is irrelevant.

Just in case people don't feel like reading what I am questioning, it is currently the idea that Deoxys-S reduces skill by introducing a no risk tool (which I believe is false but that can come later) and the idea that just because something does a job the best, it deserves to be banned.

If anyone else would like to clarify, please do.

Again, let me emphasize that I am NOT looking to agree or disagree lol, I am simply looking to understand this perspective.

I stated my perspective. You disagree. How about we leave it at that? I'm not sure how much more I'd need to clarify things in order for you to understand...

I...don't...disagree with what I am asking you to clarify...I simply want to you delve into more detail regarding the two points I mentioned in my last post...

Is this disagreeable for you?

How much more? How about by further delving into your Kyogre analogy? I mentioned Deoxys-S doing its job the best wasn't a big deal, and you make a Kyogre analogy regarding CM, which directly implied that you felt something that did a job the best deserved to be banned. I want you to explain this further, so that then I can decide to agree or disagree.