Well if you have a Yache then you just EQ and win?
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***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***
- Thread starter imperfectluck
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Well, I'm glad that out of everything I just posted you only found that little section worth questioning. :)
And to answer that, you *could* win just by doing that, but even then if I hit with Ice Beam, Deoxys just did a shitload of damage to your Garchomp and removed its Yache Berry. You were forced to need the Yache Berry to counter it, since I really don't see why you would put yourself at risk like that unless you had to. Unless Deoxys is my last pokemon, I would argue that Deoxys' contribution to that hypothetical battle is much more significant than that one KO by Garchomp because now your Garchomp (which is the most threatening pokemon in OU to every style of play) is essentially neutered while my Deoxys did everything it needed to by forcing you to attack it instead of boosting up.
Hello, I'm new, but i thought this would be a nice place for a first post. I played on shoddy a few times, so i have some experience in competitive play. I must admit that deoxys is a very hard pokemon to counter, and many times it was the reason i lost, but it is more of a pickup pokemon. 95-base attack and special attack is nothing to be afraid of. Of coures any frail pokemon easily fall to it, but that's just because it's so fast. Is it really fair to say somthing is too good just because it's the best at what it does. On another note, what business does it have in ubers. Honestly, I have no experience in ubers , but what could deoxys-speed really do in ubers that wouldn't be just to kill specific things like deoxys-attack, just because it's faster. The only other thing I know it could do is superpower a blissy or darkria. Sorry if other people already posted some of these ideas, but i'm not that patient at reading 15 pages of posts.
DEOXYS SHOULD STAY OU
DEOXYS SHOULD STAY OU
How well a pokemon fares in the Uber tier is irrelevant to whether it should be OU or Uber.
I beg to differ; if a pokemon cannot function in the tier it was placed then it does not belong in it. Look at it this way: the way people are complaining about deoxys-speed in OU, you can assume it's one of the best and most game breaking pokemon in OU. People could say the same things about garchomp and celebi though. The pokemon perceived to be the best could be move up to a hire tier where it would never be used, but what would be the fun in that. A game lacking versitality isn't fun, and thats not a game I'd play. Deoxys-speed is a major threat in OU, but it's still one that can be overcome. There's a bunch of pokemon in this game, and almost unlimited possiblities; I'm sure there's enough pokemon that can effectively counter deoxys: a bulky metagross, swampert, and heck maybe even a mesprit come to mind. Deoxys-speed isn't no scarf kyogre using waterspout after all.
Uber is not meant to be a balanced tier. Despite the fact that some people enjoy playing Ubers as a metagame and that Shoddy has an Ubers ladder, Ubers exists solely to be a banlist for the standard game.
While surely not all newly registered Smogon users are like this, this demonstrated lack of basic knowledge about the tiering system is precisely why people registered so recently don't have counting votes in this process.
While surely not all newly registered Smogon users are like this, this demonstrated lack of basic knowledge about the tiering system is precisely why people registered so recently don't have counting votes in this process.
So you're saying that if Kyogre or Dialga were the two worst Ubers and no one ever used them, that that would be enough justification for them to be OU? The tiering system doesn't work that way. I agree with you that Deoxys should be OU, but your vote is not going to be counted with reasoning with that, and the more votes for Deoxys OU, the better. Actually, I forgot, because you just joined recently, your vote isn't going to be counted either way.
Actually, BlueCookies is right. A pokemon's functionality in the Ubers tier has absolutely nothing to do with it being placed there. Based on the voting thread it is likely that wobbuffet will be placed back in Ubers, and he was also placed there before; however if you've played Ubers you know that Wobbuffet is a total joke in that tier. But more importantly, that just isn't the purpose of the Ubers tier. It was never intended to be balanced, it's first only function is to contain pokemon who are too strong for OU.
EDIT: merubin beat me to it =/
EDIT: merubin beat me to it =/
No, you're incorrect. How Deoxys performs in the Uber metagame is indeed irrelevant as to whether it's a viable Pokemon for OU use. If (and I don't personally believe Deoxys-S is) Deoxys-S is way too powerful for the OU metagame, and that it must be banned immediately, the metagame it's best suited in wouldn't be given much thought until after the initial transfer. You can't say that Deoxys doesn't belong in Ubers because it's uneffective there, and then assume that it should remain in OU where it is effective - which we could argue that it's too powerful for.
To create a diverse, balanced metagame, we must look past a Pokemon's ability in the metagame and dimiss of its presense in there for the better of the metagame itself. We tier Pokemon to favor the metagame's play, not for the Pokemon's benifit itself.
You talking about how much the pokemon is used, not about how it functions in it's tier. Even if a pokemon would be viewed as a horrible, like how dialga used to be when diamond and pearl were still new, it still had an added up total of 680 base stats, similar to other ubers in the tier. That means that it had to have it's niche in the tier, and after a while of experimenting, someone came up with the very successful bulk-up set on it. Notice how deoxys-speed has 600 total base stats, just like other OU's, meaning that it has viability in that tier. If you look at pokemon from the big picture, you'd notice that tiers seem to be set by the added up total base stats(with the exeption of pokemon that have most of thier points placed in one or two stats). It's true that deoxys-speed does have alot of speed, but that's just it's special atribute that makes it so successful.
ready said:
This is exactly the type of thinking that creates confusion about the tiers. Whether a pokemon is OU (instead of UU/BL) is determined solely by usage. Nothing else. Whether a pokemon is OU (instead of Ubers) is traditionally determined solely by "power" (though Wobbuffet's likely banning throws a wrench in that a bit).
QUOTE FROM Jrrrr
The basic outline of it is: LorbMence with 4 attacks/DDGyara/Sleep&Sweep Gallade/CBHera/Specs Starmie/SDLorbChomp (this was before Yache was thought of)
EDIT: I somehow screwed up the quote tags, sorry...
You honestly mean to tell me that CB Hera, DD Gyara, and Sleep & Sweep Gallade is your idea of a Glass Cannon team?????? Gallade is quite respectable defensively, as is Gyara and Mence(though I realize LO makes it more frail).
What I mean to say is, if this type of team is what you are saying is now unviable, i think you're crazy. Those 6 pokes exactly together the way you liked to use them may be less viable, but that is certainly not the "amazing 6 superfast, frail all out attacking" team you say was SOOOO popular and useful before Deoxys-S. I think that by posting your "glass-cannon" team, you considerably weakened your own argument.
The basic outline of it is: LorbMence with 4 attacks/DDGyara/Sleep&Sweep Gallade/CBHera/Specs Starmie/SDLorbChomp (this was before Yache was thought of)
EDIT: I somehow screwed up the quote tags, sorry...
You honestly mean to tell me that CB Hera, DD Gyara, and Sleep & Sweep Gallade is your idea of a Glass Cannon team?????? Gallade is quite respectable defensively, as is Gyara and Mence(though I realize LO makes it more frail).
What I mean to say is, if this type of team is what you are saying is now unviable, i think you're crazy. Those 6 pokes exactly together the way you liked to use them may be less viable, but that is certainly not the "amazing 6 superfast, frail all out attacking" team you say was SOOOO popular and useful before Deoxys-S. I think that by posting your "glass-cannon" team, you considerably weakened your own argument.
Using that logic, a pokemon can become to good for on tier and not good enough for another. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how the BL tier came into being. Saying something is unable to fairly exist in a tier means that the tiers must not have the right balance.
You are wrong; that is not how BL tier came into being. BL is not a balanced tier, exactly like Ubers is not a balanced tier. BL's purpose is to ban Pokemon who overpower the balanced UU tier, just like Ubers' purpose is to ban Pokemon who overpower the balanced standard tier.
Put another way, Ubers and BLs are not in fact tiers, despite that being the popular nomenclature. Ubers and BL are banlists (even if you can still play Ubers).
BL is the Ubers of UU. Things that aren't used enough to be OU but are deemed too powerful for UU are put into BL. BL isn't meant to be a balanced tier, it is merely there to balance UU. It functions exactly the same as Ubers, which exists to balance OU.
We don't actually care about the balance of Ubers, any balance that pops out is just an extra bonus by giving us a new metagame to experiment with.
Good enough for me; thanks for explaining.
Okay, so DeoxysE is powerful because it hits uber% of the standard metagame for super effective damage. Here's an idea: stop using the same tier 1 standards that get screwed by deoxys and use somthing else. There are plenty of perfectly viable pokemon outhere that the competitive community has deemed "useless" because they are not as good as Garchomp and Blissey.
Deoxys brings a welcome shuffle to OU without centralizing it. People who are against it's inception believe it's broken because they have forgotten that there are more than 12 usable pokemon in OU, and not all OU pokemon are 2HKOd by Deoxys, only the most overpowered ones. Deoxys is powerful, it's tier 1, it's not more powerful than pokemon like blissey garchomp gengar and salamence, but it does serve to keep them in check and balances the meta.
Deoxys brings a welcome shuffle to OU without centralizing it. People who are against it's inception believe it's broken because they have forgotten that there are more than 12 usable pokemon in OU, and not all OU pokemon are 2HKOd by Deoxys, only the most overpowered ones. Deoxys is powerful, it's tier 1, it's not more powerful than pokemon like blissey garchomp gengar and salamence, but it does serve to keep them in check and balances the meta.
Note that SE Damage isn't the only issue, seeing as Thunderpunch(bolt)/Ice Punch/EQ/Cross Chop hits an ungodly number of things for SE damage, yet no one is claiming Electivire to be uber. Besides, it isn't that difficult to beat Deoxys-S, there are easy ways to deal with it. The problem is how centralizing that method is.
Also please take into consideration that a purely competitive community would not deem something useless unless it was. If our goal is to win, we're going to be pushing the envelope constantly and finding what is effective or not.
I will say that a number of UU Pokes are perfectly viable in OU, they're just more difficult to fit on teams properly due to their niche rolls. If you do nothing but replace staple rolls that the top OU fill with a weaker UU, you're just being stupid. But "I wanna be a unique snow flake" syndrome isn't really the issue here.
You clearly don't understand anyones argument at all. No one wants to ban Deoxys-S because it messes up their precious "12 OU". If anything, Deoxys-S is part of those now because of having been unbanned on Shoddy for so long. The only reason people want to ban things is to increase the number of viable strategies.
The argument that I see being made is that Deoxys-S shuts down purely offensive based teams while not bringing any new strategies to the table, it just increases the importance of being bulky (which isn't a new concept). Not:
"I hate Deoxys-S because it OHKO'd my Garchomp!"
And really, you shouldn't assume that anyone is ignoring Deoxys-S and sticking to the top 12 OU. People that want to win (ya know, the people at this site) are smart enough to notice a giant threat like Deoxys-S and account for it in their team building.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Just because pokemon don't have shit for defense doesn't mean they aren't "glass cannons". Deoxys OHKOs that entire team. If you took the time to think and looked at how the team is actually put together, you would realize how wrong your assessment of it is. MoP's team had Metagross, and it was considerably worse off defensively due to his offensive-minded EV spread.
If you think my argument is weakened because my team isn't stupid shit like Infernape/Rampardos/Farfetch'd, you have it backwards. If anything, it is stronger because D-S still OHKOs 6-0 a heavy offensive team that you claim isn't a "glass cannon" team.
I just got back from a week in Cali with no phone/computer/etc. which was pretty nice, and now I'm completely and utterly exhausted from the six hour ride in a AC-less bus back to Vegas =\. I read the first page of this thread just to catch up on things, and then skimmed some others, so I'll just post how I feel on this particular now.
As soon as I was able to get Shoddy to work on the other computer we have, I decided to test out a couple of Pokemon which I'd never used before due to availability problems, and DX-S was one of them. I was utterly amazed at its ability to end-game sweep, especially once Pokemon that could wall it were taken out. Unfortunately, those Pokemon that can wall it, including Bronzong, Jirachi, Metagross, and Cresselia are almost omnipresent, and I'm sure that most teams incorporate at least one of those. Although that's not a "real" reason for keeping it in OU, it's just as viable as "it sweeps my team". While building a team, you have to consider whether you can count certain Pokemon or not, and if you decide that x-Pokemon is too rare to warrant that much concern, then that sucks for you if you get swept by it.
I feel that DX-S is in no way overcentralizing the metagame. Yes, it does have amazing speed, great type coverage, and above-average defenses (better than that of Starmie), but it can't OHKO most Pokemon, even with a super-effective move, and can then be OHKOd back or scared out. Toxic Spikes, which are commom due to Garchomp and other Sub sweepers can ruin it (LO + Sandstorm + SR/TS damage adds up). Priority moves are common, and you'd be lucky to find a team without one of the aforementioned counters.
I vote it stays OU.
As soon as I was able to get Shoddy to work on the other computer we have, I decided to test out a couple of Pokemon which I'd never used before due to availability problems, and DX-S was one of them. I was utterly amazed at its ability to end-game sweep, especially once Pokemon that could wall it were taken out. Unfortunately, those Pokemon that can wall it, including Bronzong, Jirachi, Metagross, and Cresselia are almost omnipresent, and I'm sure that most teams incorporate at least one of those. Although that's not a "real" reason for keeping it in OU, it's just as viable as "it sweeps my team". While building a team, you have to consider whether you can count certain Pokemon or not, and if you decide that x-Pokemon is too rare to warrant that much concern, then that sucks for you if you get swept by it.
I feel that DX-S is in no way overcentralizing the metagame. Yes, it does have amazing speed, great type coverage, and above-average defenses (better than that of Starmie), but it can't OHKO most Pokemon, even with a super-effective move, and can then be OHKOd back or scared out. Toxic Spikes, which are commom due to Garchomp and other Sub sweepers can ruin it (LO + Sandstorm + SR/TS damage adds up). Priority moves are common, and you'd be lucky to find a team without one of the aforementioned counters.
I vote it stays OU.
Aeroblacktyl said:
If - according to jrrrrrrr - a team with Heatran/Swampert/Hitmontop make a team not fit the glass cannon mold, then I don't think a team with Metagross/Gyarados/Garchomp does, either. Obviously giving everything life orbs and no defense EVs lessens their durability, but Metagross with his myriad of resistances and high defensive base stats is by no means a glass cannon, and the same goes for Gyarados (Intimidate beefs it immensely) and Garchomp. I'm not saying the logs aren't any good at showing how a particular type of team works... Its just they don't show how the glass cannon type of team works.
jrrrrrrr said:
Gyarados/Salamence/Gallade/Starmie/Chomp is really pushing the definition of "glass cannon". Any of those Pokemon can easily take a hit or two. Maybe we're operating with different mindsets here, but the way I see it, things like Infernape and Weavile are glass cannons, not things with Intimidate/high HP and defenses/defensive typings, etc. Adding a Life Orb removes durability (obviously) but it doesn't make these things glass cannons.
Really the point I was getting at is that if a style of play just doesn't work anyway, adding a Pokemon that just makes it work a bit less isn't enough grounds for banning anything. Of course saying "this style of play is not very good" is entirely subjective, but so is saying it with regards to building a Luvdisc-centered team and I think we can all agree it would be possible to rule that out as an effective strategy. I'm by no means saying there's any conclusive proof that glass-cannon offense is a bad strategy, I'm just saying that if it were, would it still be a valid reason for banning Deoxys?
Ironically, the best (only) way to test that would be to ban him again for some arbitrary amount of time and see if glass cannon teams rise in effectiveness again.
That seems an unusual connection to make... Just as you can argue that the decline of glass cannon teams is because of Deoxys and his overcentralizing effect, I could just as easily say that glass cannon teams declined in use because as we became more familiar with D/P, countering them became easier and easier to the point they just stopped being effective, regardless of Deoxys-E. Each proposition is equally as sound, but neither of us could ever hope to prove that either is true.
While I see the point you're making, the exact same argument could be made for Ice Shard/Punch Weavile. The sole reason people give Garchomp the Yache Berry in the first place is so they can survive random Ice attacks and hit back with his massive attack. In your example, Garchomp is doing absolutely nothing out of the ordinary and nothing that doesn't happen time and time again regardless of whether Deoxys-E is present or not. For example... using Yache Garchomp to beat the Weavile that would otherwise kill your Garchomp and your weakened Blissey. Or if you're weak to BoltBeam, using Yache Chomp to survive a weakened Starmie's Ice Beam and hit back for an OHKO. Using Yache Chomp to unexpectedly kill threats to your team is nothing new. If you're playing a "glass cannon" team, then surely using YacheChomp to take out the single biggest threat to your team - Deoxys-E - is part of the strategy, and not something inherently bad?
Gyarados is T-Bolted.
Chomp is Ice Beamed.
Salamence is Ice Beamed.
Starmie is T-Bolted.
Hera takes a STAB Expert Belt (LO) Psychic.
The only thing that doesn't die is Gallade, and are you going to continually switch in to take its attacks?
Remember, Deoxys-E can switch too!
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