I think that Flygon has some significant merit. I think in OU, Fire Punch over Toxic is probably optimal; in Format2, where the only Steel that can avoid Earthquake is Magnezone, you're probably better off running toxic, though then you can't hurt Crobat or Weezing, which are fairly common as well (not that Fire Punch would do that much, you're not Dragonite).
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New and "creative" moveset/EV spread thread "Mark 2"
- Thread starter gengod
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I think that Flygon has some significant merit. I think in OU, Fire Punch over Toxic is probably optimal; in Format2, where the only Steel that can avoid Earthquake is Magnezone, you're probably better off running toxic, though then you can't hurt Crobat or Weezing, which are fairly common as well (not that Fire Punch would do that much, you're not Dragonite).
"Bulky" Flygon has been done before, and was about to be added to the analysis before Platinum came out and I accidentally deleted the full Flygon peer edit for it that wasn't that good anyway. Actually, Aldaron just added it in anyway.
I had a set to put up but forgot what it was :(
I had a set to put up but forgot what it was :(
I have been messing around with Weavile lately, trying to improve some of its move sets and I came up with the following:
- Name: Zema's Meza (Leading Anti-Rock Avenger)
- Nature: Jolly | Adamant
- Item: Life Orb
- EVs:
- 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
- 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Speed
- Speed Stats:
- 252 EVs, Jolly: 383 Speed
- 216 EVs, Jolly: 374 Speed
- 252 EVs, Adamant: 349 Speed
- 216 EVs, Adamant: 340 Speed
- Move Set:
- Fake Out
- Pursuit
- Ice Shard
- Taunt / Aerial Ace / Brick Break
- Description: This idea was born from the increasingly amount of suicide leads that setup Stealth Rock nowadays, this set is designed to stop leads from setting up Stealth Rock, as well as take them out. Fake Out is meant to break Sashes, while Pursuit and Ice Shard allow it to hit Pokemon such as Aerodactyl and Azelf.
- Damage Calculations: All calculations are based on a Jolly Weavile holding a Life Orb:
- Fake Out vs 4/0 Neutral Azelf: 25.34% - 29.79%
- Pursuit vs 4/0 Neutral Azelf: 75.68% - 89.04% - If switching out it's a guaranteed OHKO.
- Fake Out vs 4/0 Neutral Aerodactyl: 12.91% - 15.23%
- Ice Shard vs 4/0 Neutral Aerodactyl: 77.48% - 91.06%
- Fake Out vs 4/0 Neutral Infernape: 24.83% - 29.25%
- Aerial Ace vs 4/0 Neutral Infernape: 73.81% - 86.73%
- Fake Out vs 240/48 Neutral Tyranitar: 6.23% - 7.23%
- Brick Break vs 240/48 Neutral Tyranitar: 90.02% - 105.99%
- Pursuit vs 4/0 Neutral Gengar: 95.04% - 111.83%
- Fake Out vs 4/0 Neutral Roserade: 33.59% - 39.69%
- Ice Shard vs 4/0 Neutral Roserade: Guaranteed OHKO.
- Fake Out vs 252/252 Positive Bronzong (lol): 5.33% - 6.51%
- Adamant Weavile: Adamant nature guarantees a OHKO on Aerodactyl at the cost of not being able to outspeed Azelf; however, the 40 HP EVs will allow it to survive Flamethrower; although, most Azelf are carrying Fire Blast just for this reason, so meh.
- Damage Calculations: All calculations are based on a Jolly Weavile holding a Life Orb:
- Moves Breakdown:
- Fake Out: Fake Out will allow you to break Sashes, as well as, at the very least, damage the opponent a bit in case you are not able to OHKO it.
- Ice Shard: It is obviously for faster Pokemon. Aerodactyl has a chance of going down in one hit if Weavile's Jolly.
- Pursuit: While it won't guarantee a OHKO on a full HP Azelf, Fake Out helps weaken it just enough to KO it with one Pursuit. Jolly Weavile also has a chance of OHKO'ing Gengar, while Adamant will always OHKO.
- Fourth Move: This is really just filler and it depends on what you are looking for. Taunt will disable Pokemon such as Bronzong. Aerial Ace is mainly for Infernape and Heracross. Finally, Brick Break will take care of Tyranitar, Weavile, it has a high chance of OHKO'ing Lucario (Jolly: 96.81% - 113.83% on 4/0 Neutral Lucario), and has a chance of 2HKO'ing RestTalker Heatran (Jolly: 46.11% - 54.15% on 252/96 Neutral Heatran).
- The main problem I found with the anti-lead Weavile on the analysis was that it didn't have the revenge capabilities that the regular Weavile has (being limited to one attack and no boost to guarantee certain OHKO/2HKOs). This set can get rid of opposing leads in two turns rather than just disable them, and less prediction is needed when it comes down to Aerodactyl vs Weavile.
anti lead weavile iirc was posted a while back by aldaron or jrrrrrrr who knows which one really except @sash instead of lo
unless she is sashed which she overwhelmingly is
who gyro balls you to hell ?_? i would just fakeout to determine lum or lefties if you stay in at all, and at the very least your opponent will predict taunt and you can switch to zapdos or something
The set is different than this one, though. One problem with SashVile is the fact that it cannot take down Tyranitar, which is solved with this set's fourth move.
Yes, Sashed Roserade is extremely common, which is the reason why the sash is broken using Fake Out.
It all comes down to prediction when it comes to Bronzong and company. First turn Fake Out allows you to scout, as well.
I run that exact Weavile... Life Orb and Brick Break is better than the Counter+Taunt+Sash version IMO.
@ Chris Is Me: Wow, you're right, there is a bulky Flygon... but, uhhh, it's not very well done, IMO... Timid with Earthquake? No U-Turn?? GASP! I mean, Fire Blast off 196 SpA and Earthquake off of 213 Atk isn't exactly great. It needs a bit more punch IMO.
Maybe I should do a peer edit, meh
@ Chris Is Me: Wow, you're right, there is a bulky Flygon... but, uhhh, it's not very well done, IMO... Timid with Earthquake? No U-Turn?? GASP! I mean, Fire Blast off 196 SpA and Earthquake off of 213 Atk isn't exactly great. It needs a bit more punch IMO.
Maybe I should do a peer edit, meh
I haven't seen any steels in UU see much use outside of Steelix. Probopass does have earthpower, and outruns steelix.
Golduck
Moveset Name: Physical Scarfduck
Move 1: Waterfall
Move 2: Zen Headbutt
Move 3: Cross Chop/Brick Break
Move 4: Ice Punch
Item: Choice Scarf
Ability: Cloud Nine
Nature(s): Adamant
EVs: 26 HP/252 attack/0/0/0/232 spe
This Golduck can work both as a lead and a late game sweeper. Golduck's attack stat is not that bad; it can utilize it well for a sweep, even with only a few options. The given EVs, when combined with a choice scarf, allow Golduck to hit 395 speed and outspeed all of the non-scarfed threats in UU except for Electrode. (correct me if I'm wrong)
Waterfall is for basic STAB. Zen Headbutt allows Golduck to hit the prominent fighting types in UU with a super effective hit. Ice Punch gives a super effective hit against Swellow, Altaria, and the grass types of UU. Cross Chop or Brick Break is up to preference of power versus accuracy and can hit Clefable (and Kecleon I guess) Super Effectively (I hate Clefable). Together, these moves cover almost all of the common leads in UU and many of the other pokemon in the tier. If I'm correct, you can get at least neutral damage on every pokemon in UU with correct prediction.
As for other options, there aren't many. Body Slam can be used if you really want to paralyze something, I suppose. If you want to use it in OU, give it 252 speed to tie with CS Heracross (if you want to risk that). One of the major reasons to use this in OU is that it can cripple Sandstorm Teams and Hail Teams with Cloud Nine.
Some problems that are unavoidable: Golduck has no physical options to take out bulky waters one on one, and certain physical walls are harder to take out with physical duck than special duck; however, some special walls are easier as well.
That's my first creative moveset. If people show interest I'll add in some calcs tomorrow. Note that this is all in theory, I haven't been able to test it yet.
Anyone? Or is it really that bad?
Actually, Golduck isnt't part psychic, and zen headbutt is psychic anyway. I don't deny that certain parts of this set are done better by other uu pokemon, but cloud nine and the combination of the typing of the moves should make physical Golduck a viable choice in some teams, right?
New set for Honchkrow:
Anti-lead Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Insomnia
Naughty
6 HP/ 252 Att/ 252 Sp Att
~Heat Wave
~Hp Electric/Drill Peck
~Sucker Punch
~Superpower/Drill Peck
All stats over 100% have been omitted and lowered to 100% (OHKO)
Heat Wave to Bronzong- 56% minimum (2OHKO even with Leftovers)
HP Electric to Gyarados- 99.5% minimum lol
Superpower to Tyranitar- 100%
Suckerpunch to Gengar- 100%
Suckerpunch to Azelf- 100%
Superpower to Blissey- 100%
Heat Wave to Yanmega- 100%
HP Electric to Aerodactyl- 100%
Suckerpunch to Jolteon- 100%
As you can see, this Honchkrow packs quite a punch and can effectively rid a team of their lead. Gyarados won't Attack first- dead.
Honchkrow uses Heat Wave, Zong uses Stealth Rock, Honchkrow uses Heat Wave- dead.
Honchkrow uses Superpower, Tyranitar faints.
Jolteon uses T-Bolt, Honckrow attacks first with Suckerpunch- dead Jolteon.
Aerodactyl uses SR, Honchkrow uses HP Electric- dead Aero. If it does survive by some off chance, Suckerpunch finishes it off.
Yanmega used Hypnosis (opponent forgets about Insomnia). Honchkrow uses Heat Wave or Suckerpunch- dead dragonfly.
You get the point... and bonus- it destroys Blissey!
Anti-lead Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Insomnia
Naughty
6 HP/ 252 Att/ 252 Sp Att
~Heat Wave
~Hp Electric/Drill Peck
~Sucker Punch
~Superpower/Drill Peck
All stats over 100% have been omitted and lowered to 100% (OHKO)
Heat Wave to Bronzong- 56% minimum (2OHKO even with Leftovers)
HP Electric to Gyarados- 99.5% minimum lol
Superpower to Tyranitar- 100%
Suckerpunch to Gengar- 100%
Suckerpunch to Azelf- 100%
Superpower to Blissey- 100%
Heat Wave to Yanmega- 100%
HP Electric to Aerodactyl- 100%
Suckerpunch to Jolteon- 100%
As you can see, this Honchkrow packs quite a punch and can effectively rid a team of their lead. Gyarados won't Attack first- dead.
Honchkrow uses Heat Wave, Zong uses Stealth Rock, Honchkrow uses Heat Wave- dead.
Honchkrow uses Superpower, Tyranitar faints.
Jolteon uses T-Bolt, Honckrow attacks first with Suckerpunch- dead Jolteon.
Aerodactyl uses SR, Honchkrow uses HP Electric- dead Aero. If it does survive by some off chance, Suckerpunch finishes it off.
Yanmega used Hypnosis (opponent forgets about Insomnia). Honchkrow uses Heat Wave or Suckerpunch- dead dragonfly.
You get the point... and bonus- it destroys Blissey!
Awesome Honchkrow set! I've been wanting to use those EVs somewhere, but couldn't find the right Pokemon.
Leading Jolteon will usually BP first (specs) or more likely just sub on you, so Sucker Punch isn't all that effective on it.
Insomnia is amazing though, forcing Gengar to attack you or Yanmega so that you attack first.
Drill Peck will hurt it more than Heat Wave though. Cool set.
Leading Jolteon will usually BP first (specs) or more likely just sub on you, so Sucker Punch isn't all that effective on it.
Insomnia is amazing though, forcing Gengar to attack you or Yanmega so that you attack first.
Drill Peck will hurt it more than Heat Wave though. Cool set.
i have found an awsome gengar moveset.
never dieing
move1:shadowball
move2:hypnosis
move3:nightmare
move4:curse
item: spell tag
ability: levitate
nature: hasty
evs: sp atk:255 spd:255
curse takes place over eplosion and can be used to add to the effect of hypnosis and nightmare which shold be used right
away i have a gengar with crappy ivs with this set that always ends causing alot of damage
never dieing
move1:shadowball
move2:hypnosis
move3:nightmare
move4:curse
item: spell tag
ability: levitate
nature: hasty
evs: sp atk:255 spd:255
curse takes place over eplosion and can be used to add to the effect of hypnosis and nightmare which shold be used right
away i have a gengar with crappy ivs with this set that always ends causing alot of damage
This is essentially the same set I and some others used near the start of DP when Gengar and Breloom dominated the opening scene (using Hidden Power Fire and Mirror Move for the then-common dragon leads). Honch has always been a capable anti-lead. He just has the moves to be much more effective now. Still, I wouldn't say this set is anything ground breaking except that it has better moves now. People (including me) have bred Naughty HP fire Honchkrows for ages now. Well, Heat Wave now has made that irrevelant.
BTW what calculations were you using for Gyarados? If I recall correctly HP electric was not impressive against Bulkydos. Then, I was using Focus Sash > Life Orb as well, as Honch's speed and bulk are far from impressive. I also feel that Focus Sash with Pursuit/Night Slash are a lot better than sucker punch, as everyone expects honch to be carrying Sucker Punch (since everyone knows it can't do jack with its speed or bulk otherwise). Now that Hippo is gone and Honch has Super Power for TTar (and handily outruns leadtar), I don't see sand-storm leads posing as much of a problem for honch anymore.
hi um yeah you see i took this into consideration and found a counter balance. sleep clause is not a problem due to the fact that pokemon usually suffer severe damage. the point isnt to beat the pokemon, its to weaken it and since the afflicted pokemon is usually the last to survive, it goes down incredibly fast. i have taken down polytoads with water pulse that would have killed my last pokemon thanks to this set. also, switching can even be good because once the pokemon is set up, shadow ball decimates the foe.
Why wouldn't you just thunderbolt politoad? O.o
Besides, Politoed isn't exactly high on my list of pokemon to look out for. >.>
Besides, Politoed isn't exactly high on my list of pokemon to look out for. >.>
scarf porygon z 402 special download special also
In regards to the Honchkrow discussion, does anyone think hidden power is still relevant?
Electric pretty much only is useful for 'Dos. Ice doesn't help much unless you are carrying a sash because most dragons outspeed and hammer you quite easily. Grass again is a one pokemon specific move (swampy).
Heat Wave/ Sucker Punch/ Pursuit/ Super Power
I'd say drill peck could be listed as an option of either dark type move. It's a very interesting pokemon...
Electric pretty much only is useful for 'Dos. Ice doesn't help much unless you are carrying a sash because most dragons outspeed and hammer you quite easily. Grass again is a one pokemon specific move (swampy).
Heat Wave/ Sucker Punch/ Pursuit/ Super Power
I'd say drill peck could be listed as an option of either dark type move. It's a very interesting pokemon...
Do you really want Sucker Punch and Pursuit? Seems like a waste to me when in battle you can only go 1 route with the guessing game v. azelf/gengar/deoxys/etc. Unless you plan on facing the same opponent a number of times, I'd say just stick with one and leave more space. Actually, if/when I use this, I'll probably be going with Focus Sash and Night Slash, if only because its the best general answer without getting sucked into these (imo retarded) guessing games of luck. In fact, considering how many of these bastards are going to try to set up SR (predicting sucker punch), I'd rather just blast them with night slash.
As for hidden power, I'd say it's not irrelevant for breeders, but not really necessary either. Heat Wave / Super Power / Night Slash / (Taunt/Drill Peck) seems perfectly viable to me.
As for hidden power, I'd say it's not irrelevant for breeders, but not really necessary either. Heat Wave / Super Power / Night Slash / (Taunt/Drill Peck) seems perfectly viable to me.
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