CAP 9 CAP 9 - Main Typing Discussion

Hmm, I think X-Act is also undervaluing the merit of multiple useful resistances. Of course you can get hit hard sometimes, but you can also take many other hits much more easily. I do think that his Blissey example was a little to extreme. Blissey does not take physical hits tremendously well as it has a low Defense stat and has no resistances other then the Ghost immunity. It isn't tremendously hard to wear Blissey down with repeated physical attacks. On the other hand, a Pokemon like Skarmory or Heatran can be tough to take down. Unless you're hitting extremely hard, you pretty much have to hit them neutral or better to take them down, which isn't that easy due to their Steel typing. Steel also helps offensive Pokemon switch in, whereas a Normal- or Dark-type may have trouble switching into neutral attacks if it isn't particularly bulky.

I'm also going to mention that STAB Pursuit doesn't matter that much. (I used a 299 Attack Stat and a Choice Band) The only things that STAB Pursuit KOs that nonSTAB Pursuit doesn't are Offensive Celebi (which Steel takes attacks better from), Roserade (which will either have a Sash or will have taken prior damage, meaning nonSTAB Pursuit could KO, also Steel is better defensively against Roserade), and defensive Rotom (which carries Will-o-Wisp and will Burn you and then stall you out with Rest). I suppose the higher the attack stat goes, defensive Celebi and defensive Rotom are handled a bit better by Dark Types, but I really don't think it is worth giving up the advantages of the Steel Typing. Offensive things like Salamence and offensive Zapdos are also handled a bit better but they don't use Secondary moves.

On Steel being a bad offensive type: That doesn't mean it can't be threatening. Metagross, Scizor, and Jirachi all use their STABs well. Dark isn't that threatening to things like Bronzong, Metagross, Hippowdon, Swampert, and Gliscor who will get up Stealth Rock either way, and most likely the fast pokemon like Azelf, Infernape (who threatens both Dark and Steel), and Aerodactyl will get up their Rocks as well. I suppose Dark works better against Dual Screen Azelf though...The Dark-weak Pokemon were covered in the section about Pursuit.

One last note, Dark would be a good Rapid Spinner due to the fact that it hits Ghosts hard with its STAB moves, but Rapid Spin cannot be guaranteed to be in the movepool. Also, we have evidence of a Steel-type Rapid Spinner performing decently well in Forretress, so it doesn't mean that Steel-types cannot Spin well.

EDIT: On the fact that many people seem to be assuming that the ability will stop/benefit from status: I don't see why this must be the case. There are plenty of other abilities that can work. I would rather see something like Vital Spirit or Insomnia, Early Bird, or even Poison Heal if it isn't a Steel- or Poison-type that can actually stop Sleep more effectively than a Guts SleepTalker, as IMO, Sleep is one of the most crippling statuses. The Trick preventing abilities are also there. There is Levitate to provide a Ground, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes immunity. Liquid Ooze, Natural Cure, Shed Skin, Shield Dust, Water Veil, and hell, even Soundproof are all other options. While all of these may not be optimal, I definitely wouldn't count on Guts.

zorbees said:

Hmm, I think X-Act is also undervaluing the merit of multiple useful resistances. Of course you can get hit hard sometimes, but you can also take many other hits much more easily. I do think that his Blissey example was a little to extreme. Blissey does not take physical hits tremendously well as it has a low Defense stat and has no resistances other then the Ghost immunity. It isn't tremendously hard to wear Blissey down with repeated physical attacks. On the other hand, a Pokemon like Skarmory or Heatran can be tough to take down. Unless you're hitting extremely hard, you pretty much have to hit them neutral or better to take them down, which isn't that easy due to their Steel typing. Steel also helps offensive Pokemon switch in, whereas a Normal- or Dark-type may have trouble switching into neutral attacks if it isn't particularly bulky.

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If you switch mainly into secondary effect moves, defenses are not so important. Ok, you may make a wrong prediction, but anyway you won't need more than average defenses (much on the same tier with Glalie's 80/80/80 IMO)

I'm also going to mention that STAB Pursuit doesn't matter that much. (I used a 299 Attack Stat and a Choice Band) The only things that STAB Pursuit KOs that nonSTAB Pursuit doesn't are Offensive Celebi (which Steel takes attacks better from), Roserade (which will either have a Sash or will have taken prior damage, meaning nonSTAB Pursuit could KO, also Steel is better defensively against Roserade), and defensive Rotom (which carries Will-o-Wisp and will Burn you and then stall you out with Rest). I suppose the higher the attack stat goes, defensive Celebi and defensive Rotom are handled a bit better by Dark Types, but I really don't think it is worth giving up the advantages of the Steel Typing. Offensive things like Salamence and offensive Zapdos are also handled a bit better but they don't use Secondary moves.

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You forget one important thing. Pursuit's job is not to KO Pokémon. His aim is to cripple them to the point they are no longer able to come in and do a move of sorts. If, say, you inflict something like 50% to Pokémon X with unSTABbed Pursuit, they may still be able to come in and do something. But when you take into account STAB and bring the damage up to 75%, Pokémon X will be crippled to the point weak, neutral or even resisted
attacks can bring him down. That +50% damage is of utmost importance, and you can't discount it this way.

On Steel being a bad offensive type: That doesn't mean it can't be threatening. Metagross, Scizor, and Jirachi all use their STABs well. Dark isn't that threatening to things like Bronzong, Metagross, Hippowdon, Swampert, and Gliscor who will get up Stealth Rock either way, and most likely the fast pokemon like Azelf, Infernape (who threatens both Dark and Steel), and Aerodactyl will get up their Rocks as well. I suppose Dark works better against Dual Screen Azelf though...The Dark-weak Pokemon were covered in the section about Pursuit.

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No matter how you put it, Dark STAB>Steel STAB. Period. There is not even space for discussion here.

One last note, Dark would be a good Rapid Spinner due to the fact that it hits Ghosts hard with its STAB moves, but Rapid Spin cannot be guaranteed to be in the movepool. Also, we have evidence of a Steel-type Rapid Spinner performing decently well in Forretress, so it doesn't mean that Steel-types cannot Spin well.

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No, it doesn't mean it. But still, Forretress uses a Dark move to ward off against spin blockers - Payback. What if something like Spiritomb or Tyranitar could Rapid Spin? I'm not sure you would use Forretress in that case (assuming you just need Rapid Spin and not Spikes, Dragon counter or anything else). Dark type>Steel type when it comes to spinning. Again, this is a given.

EDIT: On the fact that many people seem to be assuming that the ability will stop/benefit from status: I don't see why this must be the case. There are plenty of other abilities that can work. I would rather see something like Vital Spirit or Insomnia, Early Bird, or even Poison Heal if it isn't a Steel- or Poison-type that can actually stop Sleep more effectively than a Guts SleepTalker, as IMO, Sleep is one of the most crippling statuses. The Trick preventing abilities are also there. There is Levitate to provide a Ground, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes immunity. Liquid Ooze, Natural Cure, Shed Skin, Shield Dust, Water Veil, and hell, even Soundproof are all other options. While all of these may not be optimal, I definitely wouldn't count on Guts.

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If you have an ability like Poison Heal, why bother with Vital Spirit? You too mentioned the former, and it is an ability aimed to take advantage from status. Guts is not good IMO, because it is good only against Burn and Poison.

From looking at the concept, I feel that the best way to go is Normal/Ghost, with Normal primary. This is because:

• It has only 1 weakness (albeit a pursuit weakness), and movepool's are generally large on normal types.
• Part ghost, but immune to ghost allows it to keep spin blockers (ghosts) at bay.
• A lot of special effects can be blocked by abilities.
• Neutral to SR

I know I'm poll-jumping on the typing, but this, in my opinion, would work. Plus, as X-Act said, Normal gives us a nice base to work from.

Dogfish44 said:

From looking at the concept, I feel that the best way to go is Normal/Ghost, with Normal primary. This is because:

• It has only 1 weakness (albeit a pursuit weakness), and movepool's are generally large on normal types.
• Part ghost, but immune to ghost allows it to keep spin blockers (ghosts) at bay.
• A lot of special effects can be blocked by abilities.
• Neutral to SR

I know I'm poll-jumping on the typing, but this, in my opinion, would work. Plus, as X-Act said, Normal gives us a nice base to work from.

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Man, how you keep spin blockers at bay when you become spin blocker yourself? (it is Normal/Ghost after all)

zarator said:

I think the error X-Act and Walvren are doing is thinking that CAP9 will probably go on the defense, which definitely is not the way to go. Walls may stop in their tracks standard sweepers, but there is little they can do against secondary effect moves like entry hazards and Trick. Moreover, the defensive Pokémon are the ones which suffer from Trick the most.

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I'm actually assuming that the attacking Pokemon will not be able to use Trick on CAP9 at all. I don't know if it's gonna be offensive or defensive; what I know is that, with Normal, it will only get supereffective hits from Fighting moves. No other main type can claim that.

If we go on the offensive route, CAP9 will be able to put a lot more pressure on the opponent. Let's say, for example, that I have a Spikes/Wish/U-turn/Earth Power Fidgit. If I know Blissey may come in, I have little to lose laying down a layer of Spikes. Even if Blissey walls the hell out of me and can force me out (let's imagine this Blissey has Ice Beam, for example), I still have probably a Pokémon to switch into her with little risk, and I can always lay the other Spikes later in the match. On the contrary, if I fear a Gyarados or Salamence switch in, I will be much more cautious: will I risk laying down Spikes, giving to an incoming Gyarados (or Salamence) the opportunity to setup and potentially sweeping my team a little? I for one would prefer 100 times facing a Blissey rather than a +1/+1 Gyarados (even if I have something like Vaporeon, I'm still on the defensive, while I may switch something like Scizor into Blissey and regain the control of the match).

So, as I hopefully have shown, offense is the way to go. And seeing which are the most likely targets of CAP9, Dark seems the best choice. Even if CAP9 faces an opponent neutral to Dark, you can still threaten a powerful Pursuit. And X-act, STAB on Pursuit may not make the difference against something like Rotom, or Gengar, or (maybe) Celebi, but it is of utmost importance against neutral-to-Dark stuff (for example, against a Toxic Spiker like Tentacruel or Roserade).

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The reason why we aren't agreeing is that we're looking at implementing 'Stop The Secondary' entirely differently. My way of doing it is to have a Pokemon with not-that-great stats but that has a rather powerful ability that 'stops the secondary' dead in its tracks. It wouldn't be unfair because the Pokemon doesn't have great stats (but, at least, is only weak to one type too). You clearly are not looking at having a powerful ability, so obviously you want to 'stop the secondary' in a different way - and you're choosing offense to do so. It remains to be seen which way would be best.

X-Act said:

I'm actually assuming that the attacking Pokemon will not be able to use Trick on CAP9 at all. I don't know if it's gonna be offensive or defensive; what I know is that, with Normal, it will only get supereffective hits from Fighting moves. No other main type can claim that.

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So I'm guessing you will go for Sticky Hold. Because, just before you can say it, I am totally contrary to the introduction of a new ability. Not when what Gamefreak gave us is more than enough.

The reason why we aren't agreeing is that we're looking at implementing 'Stop The Secondary' entirely differently. My way of doing it is to have a Pokemon with not-that-great stats but that has a rather powerful ability that 'stops the secondary' dead in its tracks. It wouldn't be unfair because the Pokemon doesn't have great stats (but, at least, is only weak to one type too). You clearly are not looking at having a powerful ability, so obviously you want to 'stop the secondary' in a different way - and you're choosing offense to do so. It remains to be seen which way would be best.

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Well, then enlighten me, because I don't know any ability which can do this. Again, assuming it is not some custom shit (sorry for being harsh, but I'm really against it).

Hm...in light of the discussion, I am now firmly supporting Dark type. Maybe Steel can be a Secondary, but I doubt it.

Either way, I will reiterate: what I feel is crucial to this concept is the ability to switch in on a variety of non-damaging moves (I say this because I believe "stop the secondary" means "stop opponents from wanting to waste a turn using non-damaging attacks") and this will only be achieved through typing and ability. If Blissey can Thunder Wave CAP9 on the switch-in without fear, if Weezing can Toxic CAP9 on the switch-in without wasting a turn, if Rotom can fearlessly Will-o-Wisp CAP9 as it comes in, then CAP9 has failed at its job.

This is why I object to Dark typing: Blissey can still Thunder Wave it on the switch-in, Weezing can still Toxic it on the switch-in and Rotom can still Will-o-Wisp it on the switch-in and, unless CAP9 gets an attack stat akin to Rhyperior's or Rampardos', Pursuit will do lol damage. No single typing can cover even two of those status effects, let alone all three, and so our ability choices become much more limited. For example, a Dark/Steel type will still be crippled by Thunder Wave or Will-o-Wisp, so do we give it Volt Absorb and get crippled by Will-o-Wisp, or Flash Fire and then have CAP9 be unable to take Thunder Waves and still be useful? Does that sound to you like stopping the opponent using non-damaging moves and moves with secondary effects? It doesn't sound like that to me.

By contrast, having a pokemon immune to a variety of secondary effects (including the aforementioned status) and then have enough attacking power to wipe Celebi and co. off the face of the planet even without STAB, plus enough speed to get the coup de grace in before they can try anything funny - now that is stopping the secondary. This is why I am in favour of Fire, Poison, Steel and Ground typing, and generally against everything else.

Objection said:

Either way, I will reiterate: what I feel is crucial to this concept is the ability to switch in on a variety of non-damaging moves (I say this because I believe "stop the secondary" means "stop opponents from wanting to waste a turn using non-damaging attacks") and this will only be achieved through typing and ability. If Blissey can Thunder Wave CAP9 on the switch-in without fear, if Weezing can Toxic CAP9 on the switch-in without wasting a turn, if Rotom can fearlessly Will-o-Wisp CAP9 as it comes in, then CAP9 has failed at its job.

This is why I object to Dark typing: Blissey can still Thunder Wave it on the switch-in, Weezing can still Toxic it on the switch-in and Rotom can still Will-o-Wisp it on the switch-in and, unless CAP9 gets an attack stat akin to Rhyperior's or Rampardos', Pursuit will do lol damage. No single typing can cover even two of those status effects, let alone all three, and so our ability choices become much more limited. For example, a Dark/Steel type will still be crippled by Thunder Wave or Will-o-Wisp, so do we give it Volt Absorb and get crippled by Will-o-Wisp, or Flash Fire and then have CAP9 be unable to take Thunder Waves and still be useful? Does that sound to you like stopping the opponent using non-damaging moves and moves with secondary effects? It doesn't sound like that to me.

By contrast, having a pokemon immune to a variety of secondary effects (including the aforementioned status) and then have enough attacking power to wipe Celebi and co. off the face of the planet even without STAB, plus enough speed to get the coup de grace in before they can try anything funny - now that is stopping the secondary. This is why I am in favour of Fire, Poison, Steel and Ground typing, and generally against everything else.

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There are Natural Cure and Poison Heal for that, you know. Especially the latter, once you have switched in once, you are warded against all this shit for the rest of the match

I still firmly support Flying and Normal as the main type. I have my own ideas as to what the overall typing should be, however this is for the main type and that is what I will bring up again.

Flying, while not thought of as a defensive type and is usually discarded as Stealth Rock weak is perfectly capable of working. When was the last time someone said Gyarados or Salamence were not competitively viable due to be SR weak? No one that I will ever find. Not only that, but even with the SR weakness, who is to say that CAP9 would not get Roost, effectively negating its weakness if it's defenses were bulky enough. What does flying bring though? It brings a handy Fighting resistance, a Bug resistance, and a Ground immunity to go along with an immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes.

While Flying may be my main hope (and you can probably see where I want this to head by reading the rest of my post), I do believe X-Act has won me over with Normal as a typing. Listing off as only one weakness, which could be negated through another typing, it doesn't really offer much in terms of resistances; boasting only one immunity. However, being Normal means that it's movepool is really only limited to it's actual appearance, as most Normal types learn moves from almost everyone of the 17 available types. With proper Stat allocation, a Normal type CAP would be able to do what the other types may do as well, albeit it without STAB and possibly not with the overpowering force, but while still retaining a lot of flexibility.

Neither of these types 'Stop the Secondary' as far as their typing actually goes. However, I believe that is what it's secondary typing and ability may go for. I don't believe that both types and the ability have to be combined in a way to prevent all Secondary effects. What's to stop CAP9 from being a Flying/Steel with Insomnia/Shed Skin. Of course this is just an example, and it isn't even the best of ones, but I don't think that typing should just be limited to "It gets STAB Pursuit" or "It has a lot of resistances!" There are other key things to think about. In my example, it has a neutrality to SR, takes neutral damage from Fighting, Ice, and Rock, while it is immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Spikes, and with it's ability, it doesn't mind any status's at all. It still retains the defensiveness of Steel typing, while gaining the usual attacking prowess found within the Flying typing.

Again, my example may not be the best one out there. I would just like to keep everyone's minds open before this turns into a "Dark vs. Steel" "Offense vs. Defense" debate. You can have your cake and eat it.

zarator said:

Man, how you keep spin blockers at bay when you become spin blocker yourself? (it is Normal/Ghost after all)

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As ghost/NORMAL is immune to ghosts. I don't see any problem.

zarator said:

There are Natural Cure and Poison Heal for that, you know. Especially the latter, once you have switched in once, you are warded against all this shit for the rest of the match

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Not necessarily. If Breloom switches in for the first time against Blissey and Blissey uses Thunder Wave, Breloom gets paralysed before the Toxic Orb activates.

Although we are looking for the best type to fit the concept, primary typing isn't going to be the only indicator of CAP9's potential. Secondary typing, ability, and move pool should all contribute in some way to CAP9's ability to stop these kinds of secondary effects.

Dark seems to be the best decision, based on what I've read in this thread, because it covers two important elements of this:
1) Checking most Trick-users (who are mostly Dark-vulnerable and could either be taken out with strong dark attacks or hit with STAB Pursuit.)
2) Neutrality to spikes and stealth rock.

Other concerns (Leech Seed, status moves, etc.) can later be covered through secondary type, move pool choices, and abilities. This would help it be more effective at stopping multiple kinds of secondary threats.

Steel would be an effective type to check or stall a secondary. But to knock out secondary-users and/or make them either regret or negate their use of secondary effects, Dark is the best choice, and has my vote for the next round.

CAP9, if Dark typed, would also be unable to switch in on Trick, without an ability.

Because, unless it switches in on Trick, it isn't gonna be countering it, is it? A Dark CAP9 countering Trick would require prediction to use at all.

Let's assume that Dark CAP9 switches in on Trick. Then what? You'll have a choice item. OK, you might Persuit them, but it sure won't be much use if they stay in, and you have a Scarf/Specs. You haven't stopped the secondary either. Trick user has acomplished it's role.

And, Scizor punishes Trick enough as it is. Technican Persuit = STAB Persuit. And Scizor has a BP of 130 to work it from. And the Tricker is useually forced out because it's now locked on Trick. (Scizor's CB). Scizor also happens to be a good counter to Ghost and Psychic types, resisting their STAB moves, and Persuiting both to oblivion anyway.

Focusing on Trick, in my opinion, will lead CAP9 down the drain, as the examples above give, and focusing on Persuit will inevitably end up giving us an Inferior Scizor, in terms of that particular job. Nothing counters Trick like CB Scizor.

As a result, most of the Dark support is for STAB Persuit, to beat Trick Users. If CAP9 dosen't beat Trick, then there's no argument for Dark typing, at least as a Primary. Steel's better defensivly, and the nasty Fighting weakness is bad in CAP, and U-turn weakness makes it worse.

A Steel CAP9 is no better. Earthquake, Close Combat, Fire Blast, all await for CAP9. So what if it can come in on Poison, Sand, and, to some degree, Rocks? You'll be stuck with possibly the game's worst STAB, next to Posion, and drawing in the aformentioned attacks, which are everywhere. Steels dosen't handle Secondary users either.

As I stated before, the Ground type should at least be considered strongly. Water isn't the most common attacking type in the world, and the main thing that can take advantage of that fact is checked by Argonaught already. The Ground type gives us a good starting point, being resistant to Stealth Rock, immune to Thunder Wave, immune to Electric Attacks, Sandstorm immunity, and a good STAB.

Sure, resistances are somewhat few of the Ground Type. But 3 weaknesses, 2 resists and an Immunity are a good balance.

Some types are very good paired with Ground. Fire comes to mind. Sure, x4 weakness to Water, and x2 weakness to Ground, but they tend not to carry Secondaries, especially Ground Types. That type also comes with 5 resists, and an immunity, as well as Burn Immunity thrown in, and the ability to beat Toxic users by running a mixed set with STAB EQ and Fire Blast.

Support going to Dark-type for several key reasons:

1. Ability to punish Trickers.

Since we've established that without a severely limiting ability, CAP9 is not going to be immune to Trick, meaning the next best thing is to have a Pokemon that can hit the main perpetrators of Trick hard. Dark both hits Ghost and Fighting-types for super effective damage and resists their STAB moves as well. Not only that, but it also means that it gets STAB on Pursuit, which I feel may turn out to be an important move for CAP9.

2. Ability to hit the most common secondary-users in the Standard metagame.

This includes Celebi, Cresselia, Dusky and the Rotoms, Latias, etc, etc. All of these Pokemon are common supporters and status-users, and the concept dictates that this Pokemon should be able to not only switch into the users of secondary moves, but also force them out. Dark-type allows us to do this.

3. Scope for specialisation on secondary type.

Dark has two weaknesses and two resistances, not counting one Psychic immunity. This fact means that there is a lot more scope for deciding exactly what we want this Pokemon to accomplish when we come to a secondary typing - unlike, say, Steel-types, which have 3 very common weaknesses already, which cannot be offset easily.

Examination of potential secondary types:

Dark/Fire
Pros: Immunity to burns, secondary STAB to beat Steel-types as well as Breloom.
Cons: Stealth Rock weak - this is big, and it really limits CAP9's potential (I am set on not having a limited-time CAP9)
Dark/Grass
Pros: Leech Seed immunity
Cons: Horrible defensive typing, VERY big set of weaknesses (five normal, one nasty quad bug-type weakness)

Dark/Ice
Pros: Offensive type coverage, though I do not feel this is the direction the CAP should be taking
Cons: Again, horrible defensive typing, Stealth Rock weakness

Dark/Fighting
Pros: Offensive type coverage, although again this may not necessarily be seen as an advantage, Stealth Rock resistance
Cons: Doesn't really have any noteworthy resistances besides Stealth Rock.

Dark/Poison
Pros: Good defensive synergy of types, immune to Poison, immune to Toxic Spikes, only one weakness
Cons: No real resistances to speak of

Dark/Ground
Pros: Immunity to Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock resistance, STAB Earthquake to take out Steel-types, Immunity to Sandstorm
Cons: No real defensive synergy

Dark/Flying
Pros: Immunity to Spikes, Immunity to Toxic Spikes
Cons: Poor defensive typing, Stealth Rock weak

Dark/Bug
Pros: None, really
Cons: Stealth Rock weak, not a good defensive typing

Dark/Rock
Pros: Allows you to take on Zapdos and others, grants Sandstorm boost
Cons: Massive set of exploitable weaknesses

Dark/Ghost
Pros: Good defensive typing, no weaknesses
Cons: No real offensive help; may be a little too good defensively

Dark/Dragon
Pros: Good offensive typing
Cons: Dragon typing suggests offensive Pokemon which I do not agree with on the grounds that 'offensive' means 'temporary', thus unlikely to remain a constant presence throughout a battle

Dark/Steel
Pros: Stealth Rock resistance, doubled Ghost resistance, Sandstorm immunity, Poison immunity, Toxic Spikes immunity
Cons: Crippling weaknesses (read: quad Fighting), trapped by Magnezone, inefficient defensively, no decent secondary STAB (if applicable).

Those are my thoughts; take with a pinch of salt.

Dogfish44 said:

As ghost/NORMAL is immune to ghosts. I don't see any problem.

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As a Normal/GHOST is immune to rapid spin. Hence, it's a spin blocker. You do not eliminate the problem, you centralize it.

Really, a Steel typing would provide weaknesses to many common attacking types! As Deck Knight keenly pointed out, A Steel Pokemon won't become OU when that's all it has: a Steel type. Steel needs a good secondary type, or insane stats/movepool to be good.

When your Steel-type CAP9 unleashes a Taunt, your opponent must attack or switch out. What do you think your opponent will do? Try to switch out and get a non-STAB Pursuit? Or stay in and hit CAP9 with Flamethrower, Earthquake, or Close Combat? Either way, CAP9 loses potential.

When Dark-type CAP9 uses Taunt, the opponent will be stuck with the critical decision to either switch out to the fear of STAB Pursuit, or attack for (most of the time) neutral damage. When it comes to the rest of CAP9, Steel will need a lot more than a couple resistances to take a walk in the park.

I would like a Dark type CAP. I actually think Dark/Fire is probably the most balanced of the ones Bugmaniacbob listed. Being SR weak will help balance it out and not make it too broken.

Immunities are a priority when making this cap, and it's been addressed way more than enough. I respect that we are aware of this concept; however I'm going to repeat the same stuff I have said already. Whether it works in the metagame or not is based equally if not more importantly on how it fares with pokemon that use the secondary compared to secondary moves itself. You might be able to switch in on a number of secondary moves, or just get a Toxic immunity + sandstorm in this case (which isn't exactly the most interesting thing in the world -- just look at the truckload of steels we have in the metagame)

I'm going to quote what Walvren said, as I think it's really something most a lot of you see this CAP as, and I'm really going to try and make this clear to all of you.

You say we need to threaten, but I say we need to endure. A defensive type like Steel is perfect for stopping the secondary by staying in on the field. Sure you can threaten, but you'll probably switch soon after they do cos they'll Toxic you or you'll get Sand Streamed into submission...

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First off, I say we need to threaten, and I say we need to have immunities. We're stopping the secondary, not being immune to the secondary ONLY. What good is making a pokemon with lots of immunities? It's good, but that is it. The point of this concept is to learn how to stop it -- and I think people are looking too much into one part and not into the other. This main typing does not mean the end of the world for this CAP, and I'm really not sure why some people are interpreting it that way. Would a certain type lead to influence other polls? Of course it would. Try to look at CAP in a bigger perspective, because there are a few things I'm going to emphasize again.

• Ability is perhaps the biggest playing factor when considering immunities. I'm aware Deck mentioned it earlier, but I'm emphasizing it more because some still don't see the big picture. Guts, Poison Heal, Quick Feet, Limber, Vital Spirit, are just some examples of what we can do to nullify statuses.

• There is more than one priority to be addressed in this CAP which people are ignoring. Immunities are one, and stopping those who use immunities is the second. For example, I could have a pokemon immune to a certain status, but that means nothing if CAP 9 can't do anything back to actually stop it from happening again. Sure, we'd need the immunities to switch in in the first place, but that's a much easier job to do as opposed to fighting off secondary move users. Similar to a counter, a counter can come in on any move on the pokemon it counters, but there is no denying that there is some cost to doing so. You will still sustain damage from a move that was done on the switch in, or if that isn't the case, then Stealth Rock will eventually wear the counter out. That is, if it even gets that far. Who's to say after you switched it in first that your opponent knows what you're hiding behind your sleeve? That wouldn't happen if we had a reliable way to stop the secondary.

• Offensive, Defensive, who cares? Well definitely I do, but whichever way this CAP goes there is bound to be immunities here, and I don't think this is the first place to begin with them. Secondary typing, I would definitely advocate a typing supporting resists. Ability, I would definitely advocate an ability that sports numerous immunities to different forms of secondary moves. But here, I think we need to lay out the foundation first, which can't effectively be used anywhere else.

A poll will be up in one hour.

I believe a Dark-type would be the most useful typing. A Dark-type has the ability to beat many common status users (Rotom, Celebi, Latias etc...) with a STAB Pursuit (or Crunch/Dark Pulse/whatever). By rule, all Dark-types get Taunt (outside of like Kecleon and Arceus, but those are special cases), which allows CaP9 to stop Status Moves and Support moves (Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes), effectively 'stopping the secondary'. Also, a Dark-type is a great switch-in to Ghost- and Psychic-types, who are the most common carriers of the 'secondaries' (think Status, Trick and depending on the secondary type, Leech Seed/Reflect/whatever).

Also, I would like to discuss the secondaries, and which ones we should aim to beat.

Now, the most common 'secondaries' are Reflect/Light Screen, Thunder Wave, Will-o-Wisp, Toxic, Stealth Rock, Spikes/Toxic Spikes, Confusion (mostly from Machamp's DynamicPunch) and Trick. We need to look for ways to beat these. The best way is Taunt. Taunt stops the setting up*** of the effects of 11 out of the total list of 12 (the only one not being stopped is the Confusion from DynamicPunch). Next on the list comes Substitute. Substitute blocks*** the (secondary) effects of 6 out of the total list of 12.

As stated, this Pokemon should have either of those 2 moves (preferably both, however).

Forgot to put this bit in:

***-I signified these for a reason. I would like all of you to know that there is a difference between 'stopping the set-up' and 'blocking the secondary effect'. 'Stopping the set-up' requires that pokemon to be in, facing the opposing pokemon, to stop the set-up of the effects listed previously. 'Blocking', on the other hand, still allows the setting-up of such moves, but prevents the secondary effect from taking place.

EDIT2: A combination of Baton Pass and Substitute can protect one Pokemon from the 'secondary effects' until the Sub is broken. Just something interesting.

I am going to go with most other people and state Dark as my favourite type for this concept, for the reason that there is virtually nothing that Trick doesn't screw over, and almost all of them are Psychic- or Ghost- types, which dark could deal with.

zarator said:

As a Normal/GHOST is immune to rapid spin. Hence, it's a spin blocker. You do not eliminate the problem, you centralize it.

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This bit is purely theory, but if this gets Rapid spin (Theoretical, but likely), It will likely draw out the opponents Anti-Spinner. If it happens to be CAP9, then you get a stalemate. But since CAP9 won't be in every team, you would have a 50/50 chance on both sides. See CAP9, and either send in spinblocker, or something to take an attack.

It would cause frequent stalemates however, that is a valid point.

Supporting Flying.

Flying provides a useful Ground immunity, immunities to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and resistances to Fighting and Bug. And, seeing as almost all Flying-types get Roost, it also has reliable recovery. Pretty much all the same reasons as Raiziken.

Plus said:

• Ability is perhaps the biggest playing factor when considering immunities. I'm aware Deck mentioned it earlier, but I'm emphasizing it more because some still don't see the big picture. Guts, Poison Heal, Quick Feet, Limber, Vital Spirit, are just some examples of what we can do to nullify statuses.

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Just one more thing i'd like to add about Guts and friends, a Steel-typing would limit your range of self-inflicted status by 50%.
What I mean is, since Toxic orb won't work with Steel, only Flame orb will.
With Dark, both of these can be utilized (as well as any other type except Poison and Fire)

Personally, I can see Ground as being very effective. Since it stops thunderwave, the ability could be used to stop toxic/WoW, and with rapid spin, could cover a wide variety of secondary moves.