CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 6 - Stat Rating Discussion

Discuss the Stat Rating for CAP 9. Stat Rating will influence how high your pokemons stats are. Make sure you know what you want!

Our CAP:

moi said:

Name: Stop the Secondary
Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

Justification: While the immediate threat of damaging moves is large and present, the affect of moves such as status, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes have arguably had a greater affect to the metagame than anything has ever had, something that this would greatly look in to.

Questions to be Answered:
~ How easily would a Pokémon with such large of a niche be able to fit into a competitive team?
~ How large of an impact would the reducation of non damaging affects and moves have on the metagame?

- What, if any, would happen to the types of teams being used?
- How would this affect the usage of these types of moves?​

~ How much of an affect does typing have on the ability for ANY Pokémon to perform this duty?

Click to expand...

Typing: Dark/Ground
Style Bias: Somewhat Offensive (0-20)
Build Bias: Physical (20-40)



The Rules:

• This is not poll jump paradise. Do not suggest stat spreads in this poll, simply discuss the possibilities. Discussion is strictly Stat Rating.

• Threadhogging -- don't do it. What I said in the Secondary Typing Poll applies here even more. Get your point across, defend it, and move on. I shouldn't see the same people posting the same shit over and over again.

• Keep the convo fresh. Don't discuss the same thing over and over again. If you have something new to post, post it. If not, think a little bit harder on your post, and make sure you are not threadhogging.

I will also be choosing the Stat Rating for Stat Rating.

For reference:

Excellent (420-579)
Very Good (300-419)
Quite Good (250-299)
Good (210-249)
Average (175-209)

Here's the calc for finding bsr and whatnot.

After playing a bit with some possible spreads, I'd say Excellent. This thing will need a good deal of Attack, decent defenses, usable Sp. Atk. and good Speed (the last one is debatable, though). All these requirements are hard to satisfy within the restraints of Very Good. Although I think going over 500 may be too much, it's almost impossible not to break 420 if we want a functional spread.

I have also been looking at a lot of possible spreads, and have found that if you ignore SpA (leaving it around 55-ish), you can create a very strong spread with good speed, defensies and attack in the Very Good range. If you want more SpA, you can lower the speed and still stay in that range, but I think CAP9 would come out worse that way. I don't think we need to overextend oursleves with an excellent rating.

As the resident BSR marginwhore, let me assure you that Very Good offers plently of wiggle room. I've unable to make a Very Good spread yet that did not hit 550-555 BST.

Just as a note, the upper BSR limit on Excellent is 579. The upper BSR limit on Very Good is 419. I can tell you right now that bumping my BSR rating to Excellent gets the stats up to 580, or Lengendary Trio status.

The likelihood of getting a powerful ability along with such stats is pretty low, not if we actually want to test our theorum instead of building an ultimate sweeper concoction with Dark/Ground STAB.

I'm supporting Very Good. Excellent makes the pokemon a bridge too far with some of the more powerful abilities.

Deck Knight said:

As the resident BSR marginwhore, let me assure you that Very Good offers plently of wiggle room. I've unable to make a Very Good spread yet that did not hit 550-555 BST.

Just as a note, the upper BSR limit on Excellent is 579. The upper BSR limit on Very Good is 419. I can tell you right now that bumping my BSR rating to Excellent gets the stats up to 580, or Lengendary Trio status.

The likelihood of getting a powerful ability along with such stats is pretty low, not if we actually want to test our theorum instead of building an ultimate sweeper concoction with Dark/Ground STAB.

I'm supporting Very Good. Excellent makes the pokemon a bridge too far with some of the more powerful abilities.

Click to expand...

Although I know you are very good at making the most out of rating margins, the 550-555 BST thing means little. The important thing is how they are distributed. Dragonite, Salamence and Deoxys all have 600 BST, but they have Excellent, Fantastic and Exaggerated ratings respectively. Also, I do not see anything wrong with the whole 580 BST thing. There are a lot of Pokémon who have both 580 BST and a good ability (and Levitate and Pressure aren't bad abilities on things like Zapdos and Azelf). Besides, it is the TL who makes the slates, so I don't worry about too powerful spreads. What I'm calling for is something between 450 and 500, since I think that the 419 margin is too low to do the things CAP9 needs to do.

Definitely Very Good. I've been tinkering around with possible spreads, and none of them exceed Very Good. Indeed, Excellent is just too many stats that would go to waste, and in fact hurt us later on when we're deciding ability. Adding points into Sp.Atk now that this thing is full physical, while also expecting a good Sp.Def, is unrealistic, while on top of that getting great STABs and good resistances is pretty conceited. Despite wanting this thing to have a usable Sp.Atk, I think it's unrealistic at this point.

Spaceneil8 said:

What does Very good/excellent, BSR or BST mean?

Click to expand...

BST is the total of the base stats. Like, Celebi has 100 in all 6 of its stats, so it's BST is 600. BSR is the stat rating, which is related to BST, though not directly.

http://users.smogon.com/X-Act/BaseStatsRatings.html

This applet was developed by user X-Act, and you can plug base stat values in to get various ratings. Very Good and Excellent are two of the BSRs, and are usually the ones discussed for CAP Pokemon.

Very Good. Additionally I'd like to say that dropping Sp.A. lower than a number that is already pretty unusable (like 70) in order to fit into a BST margin is kind of lame. This is because it doesn't make the pokemon any less broken when you drop a stat that is never going to be used anyway.

That said, I think this guy can tolerate a high BST without becoming broken, mostly due to his typing. We all seem to agree that he needs to be somewhat bulky, but with him being weak to water, grass, ice, fighting, and bug, he's going to be taking a lot of super effective hidden powers. High special defense could let him take some of these, but it wouldn't break him since pretty much everything gets him with neutral STAB or SE hidden power. Also he's still going to die to all of the STAB and/or boosted Surfs, and Grass Knots out there.

Basically, typing makes the defensive STAT's mean more or less (think Skarmory vs. Steelix) in this case, the defensive typing is poor so giving it a high defense STAT could mean less (and contribute less to making it broken) than it would on an amazing type like Steel/Dragon. In the same way, a little offensive STAT's may go a long way given he excellent offensive typing that he has.

Two things.

1. Shouldn't the build bias listed in the OP be 20-infinity rather than 20-40?

2. Why are people talking about BST? BST is completely irrelevant. BSR is a much better measure of how the stats are distributed. I can make a spread of 255/50/40/50/40/255, a 690 BST, higher than any Pokemon other than Arceus, yet its BSR is only in the "Good" range. I don't see why people stick to this notion that the BST shouldn't go much over 550 when the BST is completely irrelevant.

Anyways, my support goes to Very Good for reasons listed previously.

Very Good indeed. We need enough room here to make this Pokemon viable, but the stats shouldn't be so ridiculous that some of the better abilities and moves don't push this Pokemon over the border. I kind of agree with Scoopapa over a usable Special Attack, however I've found it hard to make a set that satisfies me (good Attack, Defenses, and Speed) that keeps a usable Special Attack. Like others, I've found it impossible to keep this thing's BST under 500 and still make it viable. I don't think we should go too far over the 500 BST threshold, though, maybe somewhere between 500-550.

@zorbees: I understand where you're getting at, but I feel that the BST will be important for this Pokemon. I believe that this guy should be fairly well balanced in terms of offense and defense, being a more powerful attacker, but being able to take a hit as well. On a more balanced Pokemon, the BST and BSR in conjunction provide a good indicator as to whether the Pokemon is overpowered or not - high BST on something more balanced generally equals a high BSR. So, for something that would do better being more balanced, the BST and BSR work in conjunction.

In other words, I support Very Good. 'Nuff said.

I'm going to go for broke and say Excellent is the way to go.

Many OU pokemon, such as Smeargle, Breloom, Bronzong, Forretress, Machamp, etc. get by with low Stat Ratings because of impeccable typing or unique strategic traits (access to every move in the game, Spore, and 100%-accurate Dynamic Punch, to use examples from this list). Many OU pokemon, such as Azelf, Celebi, Salamence, Latias, etc. get by with ridiculous Stat Ratings because of how easily counterable they are, whether by type combination or common strategy (Pursuit, priority, etc.). Most OU pokemon, of course, lie between those two extremes. There is precedence for OU-viable pokemon from Horrible to Fantastic, and most of the higher-BSR pokemon have several/severe common weaknesses.

Which brings me to my main point: CaP9 has a really bad defensive typing. It's weak to U-Turn, Close Combat, Grass Knot, Surf, and Ice Beam, some of the most common moves in the game. Most well-constructed teams have all or most of these moves (or at least these attacking types) spread around their members. If we want CaP to be able to switch in multiple times and do its job on the team (utility sweeper?) without dying, we'll need to beef up its stats a little more than we've previously allowed (every CaP since Pyroak has had really good defensive typing, so by the time we got to stat spread, the kind of stats needed to keep it competitive weren't very high). We learned from Cyclohm what good massive defenses are when our pokemon is weak to common attacks. We need to push it further this time.

Excellent is uncharted territory for CaP, to be sure, but it shouldn't have to limit its abilities/movepool. We've created a huge niche with this concept, and we need to respond to that. With one group of secondary attacks that will be stopped by offense, another group by defense, and a third by speed, all while being threatened out of play by a large breadth of OU pokemon, this CaP is already significantly handicapped, despite being immune to SS and Electric and Psychic attacks, and resistant to SR (kewl!). I say we can give Excellent a go without making it too outrageous, imo.

High BST doesn't mean a damn thing. I don't want to give away my stat spreads just yet, but one of my favorite ones has a BST of 580, yet has a BSR of 415 and isn't offensively inept either. I don't get why this spread would be invalid (assuming Very Good is the BSR range chosen) just because of a high BST when it fits all of the stat build qualifications. You say that a high BST generally equals a high BSR on something balanced but my spread (and any other spread with a high BST but a not-too-high BSR) pretty much proves that wrong.

i'll stick with very good, because the already gives more than enough wiggle room within the already existing parameters.

zorbees said:

High BST doesn't mean a damn thing. I don't want to give away my stat spreads just yet, but one of my favorite ones has a BST of 580, yet has a BSR of 415 and isn't offensively inept either. I don't get why this spread would be invalid (assuming Very Good is the BSR range chosen) just because of a high BST when it fits all of the stat build qualifications. You say that a high BST generally equals a high BSR on something balanced but my spread (and any other spread with a high BST but a not-too-high BSR) pretty much proves that wrong.

Click to expand...

while high BST might not mean much, you have to remember that the BSR calculator isn't perfect. just messing with it i managed to get 75/102/95/75/100/255 as having a BSR of 419 (very good) with a BST of 702. my point is that we have to use common sense, as neither the BST or BSR are perfect.

edit-hell, you can even alter the BST to 699 to get 75/104/95/70/100/255 in order to make it fit the O/D and P/S parameters, and it drops the BSR to 416...

I am working off the assumption that higher stats = poorer ability/movepool, so I will be discussing aspects of this CAP's ability/movepool in this post. I don't believe this should be considered poll jumping.

Anyway, I vote for Excellent.
As far as our CAP's stats go, I am envisioning something rather similar to Gyarados' stats (but with less Atk and more Def/Speed). Gyarados has a BST of 540, a great movepool and great ability, but it is still solidly OU. This suggests to me that our CAP can have an Excellent stat spread while still having access to a precise movepool and relevant ability. I mean, we don't really need this thing to have access to Draco Meteor and Wonder Guard, we just need good STAB attacks (Pursuit, Night Slash, Earthquake) and good support options (Rapid Spin, Taunt, Safeguard, etc). We don't need to nerf our stats unnecessarily to get access to extraneous moves when their marginal benefit will very likely be lower.
A possible stat spread, for instance (just as an example) would be 100/110/90/55/95/90. This gives it the same BST as Gyarados. We need this combination of bulk and power if we want our CAP to properly fill its niche; less necessary are a large movepool (look at Scizor, it does its job with 5-6 useable moves) and a "great" ability (something like Shed Skin, as an example, would be just fine).
One of my primary arguments in the Build Bias thread was that we needed good bulk on both sides of the spectrum so that our CAP is not afraid of getting hammered as it switches into secondary users. Currently, our typing leaves us vulnerable to a significant number of commonly used attacks, attacks that are very often carried by Secondary users. I believe that if we attempt to compromise our bulkiness or our threat level by reducing our stats, our good ability/movepool won't even have opportunity to manifest its benefits.

After trying a few spreads out, I think this Pokemon could work with Very Good or Excellent. I came up with fairly satisfactory spreads (to me, at least) for both ratings. That said, I'd prefer to see Excellent. This Pokemon could really use the high stats to make sure it succeeds in its job of stopping the secondary. A lot of people are talking about how Very Good is good enough, usually by saying how they can make their stat spread have a BSR in the 415-419 range. Why bother restricting ourselves? Choosing Excellent does not force us to make a 579 BSR Pokemon, but it does give us the freedom to not have to adjust our stat spreads to make them have a BSR of just less than 420.

I'm going with Excellent. With CAP9s host of weaknesses, it's going to have be relatively bulky and still maintain a great attack score. I've also been tinkering with some stats and CAP9, right now, is very flexible, pivoting on a good attacker score. Given an Excellent total, we will be able to make a very impactful Pokemon or at least have the potential to do so. I think keeping things open but strong is the way to go for this stage in the development.

After talking with a couple of buds, I can see both Very Good and Excellent working, but I am leaning towards excellent at the moment. While I realize that this CAP can definitely pull off a Very Good spread, it tends to skim the border frequently. Not saying these spreads are necessarily bad, but there are a couple reasons as to why I chose excellent after seeing certain in-progress spreads like Deck Knights.

First off, when I calculated Deck Knight's spread, it skimmed the line between Excellent and Very Good. Needless to say I'm pretty sure he maximized the potential of this CAP, and I feel that a little leeway is possible for this CAP. While this provides more than enough elbow room for this CAP, I am also aware that this will open up some seemingly broken stat spreads. However, seeing as how I have the power to control slates, I am thinking of Excellent as the extra elbow room to get enough satisfaction from everyone without going broken. It would allow for more creative spreads given the extra room.

BSR isn't the most accurate interpretation of a pokemon's skill, either. While it is definitely a step up from BST, BSR does not factor in the pokemon itself, what we should really be looking at. But even then, looking at this CAP at a larger scale, stats are only a portion of this CAP. Same goes for movepool and ability.

I'm going with Excellent, a this CAP is going to need to take full advantage of it's stats to stop the secondary.

Going with Excellent. Right now CAP9 needs to be the best it can be, and as long as we stick around Garchomp's stats (maybe with more speed and maybe a bit less of everything else). It's already compromised via 5 weaknesses, and the highly likely event that CAP9 gets a good ability is not an excuse in my mind to compromise stats as well.

As I said earlier, Garchomp's stats are NOT the sole reason why he got 'promoted' to Uber just before Platinum came out. Access to Swords Dance, a lack of weaknesses and a little help from the Yache Berry, and Sand Veil played a role in urging the population to 'promote' it too. They're the reasons why it's able to guarantee a kill before it bites the dust regardless of the situation it's in... provided that it's not controlled by a complete dumbass. CAP9 will probably never have that guarantee because it already has 5 weaknesses, which I mentioned above, and even if it tried to pull off an SD, Arghonaut can nullify it's boost with Unaware. Not that it's allowed to jump into the fray while we're playtesting, but it's a point worth mentioning

Admiral_Stalfos19 said:

Going with Excellent. Right now CAP9 needs to be the best it can be, and as long as we stick around Garchomp's stats (maybe with more speed and maybe a bit less of everything else). It's already compromised via 5 weaknesses, and the highly likely event that CAP9 gets a good ability is not an excuse in my mind to compromise stats as well.

As I said earlier, Garchomp's stats are NOT the sole reason why he got 'promoted' to Uber just before Platinum came out. Access to Swords Dance, a lack of weaknesses and a little help from the Yache Berry, and Sand Veil played a role in urging the population to 'promote' it too. They're the reasons why it's able to guarantee a kill before it bites the dust regardless of the situation it's in... provided that it's not controlled by a complete dumbass. CAP9 will probably never have that guarantee because it already has 5 weaknesses, which I mentioned above, and even if it tried to pull off an SD, Arghonaut can nullify it's boost with Unaware. Not that it's allowed to jump into the fray while we're playtesting, but it's a point worth mentioning

Click to expand...

Woah now, Garchomp's stat spread is up at 813, which is fantastic. We shouldn't go anywhere near that strong of a Pokemon. Justifying with Arghonaut is not a valid argument for this process, CAP9 is to be isolated from other CAPs until play-testing in OU is over.

Very Good is clearly the best option here. Had it not been as physical, Excellent may have been necessary to produce sufficient offense. Since it is 20+, Very good will easily provide for a sufficiently offensive style, that is threatening, yet still counterable. Quite good is probably adequate, but I'd rather not test it.

Very Good allows for reasonable bulk and offensive prowess. The reason why I didn't go for excellent is that its offensive stats don't need to be extraordinarily high (though I like to think speed is important), but its defense could use some help seeing as its typing lends it a large amount of weaknesses.

This CAP should run Excellent, it needs to have a respectable SPAtk to scare Skarmory, and then it needs high Attack and an acceptable speed to threaten Secondary users which it switches into, but if it cant take a simple hit, then the concept failed it's task.

Considering that it's weak to a lot of common types does also help the ideal that it wont be completely broken.

I've been toying with a few stat spreads, and Excellent seems to be the best way to go. It's more or less the only way to get something with a decent sp.attack stat, decent defences, and enough force behind Persuit to OHKO Latias without Def or HP EV's, who is the bulkiest Tricker CAP 9 will ever have a hope of OHKO'ing. My current favored spread is just into Excellent. (450)

However, it would be possible to go for Very Good spreads, however, this would require an attack boosting abilty to get the same job done, namely Guts, which would help the concept.

Excellent is the only way to go. CAP 9 is gonna do a fair amount of switching, so it'll need bulk to take several (possibly super-effective) hits. It needs a strong Attack stat to threaten with Pursuit, and it needs decent Sp. Attack to take out Skarmory and Forretress, which would otherwise set up on it happily. On top of all that, it needs decent Speed to outspeed and KO opponents which choose to attack rather than switch. Basically, CAP 9 needs pretty much everything, so Excellent is probably necessary to prevent it from becoming overly ineffective in its job.