-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Breloom
- Thread starter Manaphy
- Start date
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
lol Gliscor flat out loses to Techniloom unless it's faster and has Acrobat. Even then, it wouldn't like switching into Bullet Seed (especially if it hits 4-5 times).
The best Techniloom counters are probably Dragonite/Salamence and Celebi. None of them care about boosted Bullet Seed or Mach Punch and can OHKO Breloom in return. Mence and Nite should be wary of Stone Edge though...
I'm really not looking forward to the Techniloom release simply because it encourages people to use broken sleep mechanics. The only positive thing it contributes is it makes Excadrill ever-so-slightly more manageable, but I still think it's overall impact will be negative.
Even after it's released, I'm still going to use poison heal. I mean come on, the only non SS/Hail immune pokemon able to get lefties in any weather (side from magic guard, overcoat, and other immunity type abilities). Not only this, but able to recover no matter what while being behind the safety of a sub after you sleep something. And with new sleep mechanics, this use of breloom is amazing strategic assault. (Somewhat cheap too :3). Also, with it's amazing stabs people can often fit him on any team. He also makes a decent thing to use against the rain because he resists water (too bad weak to ice), and he can help against the grass typed sun pokes. However he is somewhat vulnerable to that normal buffalo and other herbivore pokes. But he does have fighting stab so he still isn't walled
But Techniloom has so many less counters, It has a chance of 2HKOing freaking Gliscor.
What can counter Tech-loom then? It seems like you need to always fodder something, and then kill it off with something faster, Latias, Latios, and Gengar seem like decent checks. Chandelure might be able to trap it, but it doesn't like a stone edge to the face.
In keeping with my fetish for Choice Band/Specs, I actually feel that should Techniloom ever be released a CB set would have a ton of merit. I would use:
Breloom @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spe
Nature: Adamant
~ Mach Punch
~ Bullet Seed
~ Low Sweep
~ Stone Edge
Everything here whores Technician but the worst move in the game, which I guess is required for Dragonite and Salamence. With Jolly, Breloom would be able to tie beneficial speed nature 130 Base Speed pokemon that would switch into LS, but that distinction is reserved for exactly Crobat which would have a 50/50 shot of OHKOing Loom anyway. More important are the pokes between 115-130 base speed that would even dare switch into Breloom, and that is pretty much only Starmie, which would be 240 speed (if Timid and 252 Spe EVs) to Adamant Breloom's 239. One pokemon isn't enough to forgo the 10% boost to Attack afforded by Adamant, especially for the weird scarf stuff that doesn't deserve my attention that would have any chance of falling in between 240 and 262 speed after switching into exactly one move in LS. Adamant also allows Breloom to do more with BS to Chandelure, which is enough of a little bitch without its DW ability.
Force Palm is an option over Low Sweep if you would rather attempt to spread paralysis and have a 30% chance of accomplishing the same thing over two turns as you would with LS against most pokemon (those slower than 115+ Base Speed max pokes accounting for scarves) and make it potentially easier for Breloom or a teammate to sweep later, but Low Sweep is just that good.
Here is the fun part: damage calculations! Bullet Seed hits for a little over three hits and 172 Power on average with rounding (three hits would be 165) so I'll use three hits for the Bulled Seed calcs. For some numbers:
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom -1 Atk Low Sweep
vs. Adamant min/min Salamence : 29.3% - 34.4%
Two hits and you have 69% even after Intim—if SR is up (as it should be when using a pokemon whose STAB is resisted by fliers), Salamence will fall with basically any other prior damage.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom -1 Atk Stone Edge
vs. Adamant min/min Salamence : 87% - 102.7%
Always dying if SR is up.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Stone Edge
vs. Timid min/min Chandelure : 150.2% - 177%
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Timid min/min Chandelure : 62.1% - 74.7%
Doesn't quite notch the OHKO on average with SR up, but it's still very comforting to know that that Chandelure can't safely switch into half the moves of a pokemon it hard counters on paper via type (nothing counters Breloom though cause it's uber).
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch
vs. Adamant max/min Scizor : 47.1% - 55.8%
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Adamant min/min Scizor : 86.1% - 101.8%
Pretty much can't switch into TeCBreloom (awful lol) at all and even threaten Bullet Punch unless Loom uses Bullet Seed.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Careful max/min Vespiquen: 23.3% - 27.3%
Even with SR up you may not be able to get Vespiquen, but that's what Stone Edge is for:
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Stone Edge
vs. Careful max/min Vespiquen: 410.5% - 483.7%
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Latios : 48.2% - 56.8%
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Timid min/min Latios : 59.8% - 70.8%
Low Sweep is a move. Latios is a pokemon. Breloom is also a pokemon, one that beats Latios with Low Sweep. Watch out for scarf obviously, though 2 Mach Punches will do 64-76%.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Timid min/min Thundurus/Tornadus : 67.2% - 79.3%
With SR this has a shot to KO.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Thundurus/Tornadus : 54.2% - 63.9%
Always "OHKOed" by two LSes.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Volcarona : 55.3% - 65.3%
Doesn't even need SR support to kill every time with 2 LSes.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Impish max/max Gliscor : 51.7% - 61.9%
No. Gliscor is also 226 speed to Breloom 239. Breloom has to do min damage like three turns in a row against Gliscor for it to be able to outstall the Bullet Seed damage with Poison Heal, but good luck with that. I'm sure some metagaming goes on with speed EVs and defensive EVs since Gliscor is a solid Breloom check with Poison Heal activated, so I won't bother calcing anything else here besides the 21-25% that Breloom does to this same Gliscor with Low Sweep.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Starmie : 52.9% - 62.5%
Jolly would 2HKO pretty much every time (and outspeed Starmie after the first hit which is the point) doing 48-57% but have fun switching a water type into a grass type that would otherwise put you to sleep or do like 500% with bullet seed (264-312% on average with BS but who's counting [i guess i am]).
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Timid min/min Gengar : 86.2% - 102.3%
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Stone Edge
vs. Timid min/min Gengar : 104.2% - 122.6%
You don't scare Breloom, Gengar.
You get the drift. Breloom is uber. Basically, the only things in the top 10 from June Stats that can switch into Breloom at all are Gliscor kind of and Dragonite. Expand to top 25 and you have Skarmory, further to the rest of OU and it's pretty much only Forretress and Celebi. Drain Punch is an option over Stone Edge (and a good one, because fuck Stone Edge) to keep Breloom healthy for hit and runs. So assuming Nintendo isn't unreasonable (lol, good luck with that) and releases DW Shroomish as a female which would allow for egg move Bullet Seed, CB Techniloom would pose a different but formidable threat to the metagame. It's not unreasonable to feel that this would be released before ST Chandy is, and we'd probably just ban that anyway (because seriously Gamefreak?).
Breloom @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spe
Nature: Adamant
~ Mach Punch
~ Bullet Seed
~ Low Sweep
~ Stone Edge
Everything here whores Technician but the worst move in the game, which I guess is required for Dragonite and Salamence. With Jolly, Breloom would be able to tie beneficial speed nature 130 Base Speed pokemon that would switch into LS, but that distinction is reserved for exactly Crobat which would have a 50/50 shot of OHKOing Loom anyway. More important are the pokes between 115-130 base speed that would even dare switch into Breloom, and that is pretty much only Starmie, which would be 240 speed (if Timid and 252 Spe EVs) to Adamant Breloom's 239. One pokemon isn't enough to forgo the 10% boost to Attack afforded by Adamant, especially for the weird scarf stuff that doesn't deserve my attention that would have any chance of falling in between 240 and 262 speed after switching into exactly one move in LS. Adamant also allows Breloom to do more with BS to Chandelure, which is enough of a little bitch without its DW ability.
Force Palm is an option over Low Sweep if you would rather attempt to spread paralysis and have a 30% chance of accomplishing the same thing over two turns as you would with LS against most pokemon (those slower than 115+ Base Speed max pokes accounting for scarves) and make it potentially easier for Breloom or a teammate to sweep later, but Low Sweep is just that good.
Here is the fun part: damage calculations! Bullet Seed hits for a little over three hits and 172 Power on average with rounding (three hits would be 165) so I'll use three hits for the Bulled Seed calcs. For some numbers:
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom -1 Atk Low Sweep
vs. Adamant min/min Salamence : 29.3% - 34.4%
Two hits and you have 69% even after Intim—if SR is up (as it should be when using a pokemon whose STAB is resisted by fliers), Salamence will fall with basically any other prior damage.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom -1 Atk Stone Edge
vs. Adamant min/min Salamence : 87% - 102.7%
Always dying if SR is up.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Stone Edge
vs. Timid min/min Chandelure : 150.2% - 177%
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Timid min/min Chandelure : 62.1% - 74.7%
Doesn't quite notch the OHKO on average with SR up, but it's still very comforting to know that that Chandelure can't safely switch into half the moves of a pokemon it hard counters on paper via type (nothing counters Breloom though cause it's uber).
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch
vs. Adamant max/min Scizor : 47.1% - 55.8%
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Adamant min/min Scizor : 86.1% - 101.8%
Pretty much can't switch into TeCBreloom (awful lol) at all and even threaten Bullet Punch unless Loom uses Bullet Seed.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Careful max/min Vespiquen: 23.3% - 27.3%
Even with SR up you may not be able to get Vespiquen, but that's what Stone Edge is for:
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Stone Edge
vs. Careful max/min Vespiquen: 410.5% - 483.7%
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Latios : 48.2% - 56.8%
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Timid min/min Latios : 59.8% - 70.8%
Low Sweep is a move. Latios is a pokemon. Breloom is also a pokemon, one that beats Latios with Low Sweep. Watch out for scarf obviously, though 2 Mach Punches will do 64-76%.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Timid min/min Thundurus/Tornadus : 67.2% - 79.3%
With SR this has a shot to KO.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Thundurus/Tornadus : 54.2% - 63.9%
Always "OHKOed" by two LSes.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Volcarona : 55.3% - 65.3%
Doesn't even need SR support to kill every time with 2 LSes.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Impish max/max Gliscor : 51.7% - 61.9%
No. Gliscor is also 226 speed to Breloom 239. Breloom has to do min damage like three turns in a row against Gliscor for it to be able to outstall the Bullet Seed damage with Poison Heal, but good luck with that. I'm sure some metagaming goes on with speed EVs and defensive EVs since Gliscor is a solid Breloom check with Poison Heal activated, so I won't bother calcing anything else here besides the 21-25% that Breloom does to this same Gliscor with Low Sweep.
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Starmie : 52.9% - 62.5%
Jolly would 2HKO pretty much every time (and outspeed Starmie after the first hit which is the point) doing 48-57% but have fun switching a water type into a grass type that would otherwise put you to sleep or do like 500% with bullet seed (264-312% on average with BS but who's counting [i guess i am]).
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Timid min/min Gengar : 86.2% - 102.3%
252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Stone Edge
vs. Timid min/min Gengar : 104.2% - 122.6%
You don't scare Breloom, Gengar.
You get the drift. Breloom is uber. Basically, the only things in the top 10 from June Stats that can switch into Breloom at all are Gliscor kind of and Dragonite. Expand to top 25 and you have Skarmory, further to the rest of OU and it's pretty much only Forretress and Celebi. Drain Punch is an option over Stone Edge (and a good one, because fuck Stone Edge) to keep Breloom healthy for hit and runs. So assuming Nintendo isn't unreasonable (lol, good luck with that) and releases DW Shroomish as a female which would allow for egg move Bullet Seed, CB Techniloom would pose a different but formidable threat to the metagame. It's not unreasonable to feel that this would be released before ST Chandy is, and we'd probably just ban that anyway (because seriously Gamefreak?).
After looking over that moveset, I'm pretty sure it has no room for Spore - every attack is necessary for coverage (or for priority, in Mach Punch).
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
More like Scizor Prime. Fighting priority will forever be superior to steel priority. The only thing breloom lacks are pursuit and U-turn. However, CB Scizor does not have the ability to murder absolutely anything that switches in. There are plenty of counters who can shrug off the damage he deals. I cannot say the same for breloom.
If you use shed shell breloom, then I will murder you in your sleep through the internet. Then again, I've used shed shell shaymin-S, so I really can't talk.
If you use shed shell breloom, then I will murder you in your sleep through the internet. Then again, I've used shed shell shaymin-S, so I really can't talk.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
Gliscor usually uses 72 Spe EVs to outspeed max+ TTar so it will outspeed Breloom with 5 points.
Your calcs are cool, but Terrakion, Haxorus, Latios can 2HKO the whole metagame too with their Choice sets and don't require a switch to get a KO as many of your calcs depend on Low Sweep hitting twice so you will need to force a switch or be able to actually take an attack.
When its released it will be a threat no doubt, but in todays metagame 2HKOing everything isn't that special anymore.
I figured something "silly" like that and mentioned it with my "metagaming" comment, but what forces a switch better than the threat of Spore? Sure, mid- to late-game the surprise of CB will be over, but Breloom doesn't even care with perhaps the best priority in the game and something as ridiculous as Tech CB Bullet Seed. None of the pokeon you mentioned can guarantee a big hit on everything that isn't a ghost type, and there's a lot to be said for that (just ask Scizor).
and alphatron already said it, Breloom gets to hit virtually everything that switches into its fighting moves twice. 270 base power combined from two Tech CB Low Sweeps is ridiculous, and fighting>steel every day of the week with regard to priority that is otherwise identical. Also the lack of Spore is supposed to be exploited: your opponent switches in something to absorb sleep and gets pounded by at least 110 damage in two hits of bullet seed, and at worst 270 in Low Sweep or 225 in five hits of Bullet Seed. I would use Tech CB Loom in a heartbeat.
and alphatron already said it, Breloom gets to hit virtually everything that switches into its fighting moves twice. 270 base power combined from two Tech CB Low Sweeps is ridiculous, and fighting>steel every day of the week with regard to priority that is otherwise identical. Also the lack of Spore is supposed to be exploited: your opponent switches in something to absorb sleep and gets pounded by at least 110 damage in two hits of bullet seed, and at worst 270 in Low Sweep or 225 in five hits of Bullet Seed. I would use Tech CB Loom in a heartbeat.
Holy freaking balls Jumpman, those calcs make me even more excited for Techniloom's releae. goddamn it Gamefreak, hurry up and do it! D:<
EDIT: @BurningMan
He was assuming that something switches into breloom, which isn't that hard to do considering how the new sleep mechanics put the fear of God into people with regards to spore. You also seem to have forgotten the effect of Low Sweep. It guarantees that the opponent's speed drops by one. Freaking guarantees. That means that, yes, Breloom will be getting two off and 2HKOing any pokemon that switches in, bar ghosts, and crobat. I will now make the point that he does this all with one goddamn move, and doesn't even take into account the fact that he has 3 other moves to take out anything that finally realizes it's a banded variant. I guess things like bulky Salamence can be a check, but considering those calcs any prior damage will kill off 'mence too. I don't know if you're trying to downplay it (because you're a hater), you just don't realize it, or you acknowledge it and are trying to keep yourself calm in the event that it isn't banned, but to me, that's freaking scary!
Err, well I might have gone a bit stir-crazy at that last bit, but you get my point; Breloom will be awesome with Choice Band Technician, and there is no denying that.
EDIT: @BurningMan
He was assuming that something switches into breloom, which isn't that hard to do considering how the new sleep mechanics put the fear of God into people with regards to spore. You also seem to have forgotten the effect of Low Sweep. It guarantees that the opponent's speed drops by one. Freaking guarantees. That means that, yes, Breloom will be getting two off and 2HKOing any pokemon that switches in, bar ghosts, and crobat. I will now make the point that he does this all with one goddamn move, and doesn't even take into account the fact that he has 3 other moves to take out anything that finally realizes it's a banded variant. I guess things like bulky Salamence can be a check, but considering those calcs any prior damage will kill off 'mence too. I don't know if you're trying to downplay it (because you're a hater), you just don't realize it, or you acknowledge it and are trying to keep yourself calm in the event that it isn't banned, but to me, that's freaking scary!
Err, well I might have gone a bit stir-crazy at that last bit, but you get my point; Breloom will be awesome with Choice Band Technician, and there is no denying that.
Wow, the power of Technician making Pokemon overpowered in an instant... The fact that Low Sweep and Bullet Seed do so much means that Breloom can forego Stone Edge for Spore if you want the sleep. You can still exploit the opponent trying to have something useless put to sleep by taking it down with its monster hits, and then Spore the Breloom counter the second time it is active.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
Errrr Haxorus 2HKos everything bar skarmory and Ferrothorn, by just clicking on outrage. Terrakion is a fighting type pokemon too with a higher BP stab and enough speed to outspeed around 80% of the metagame everything thats faster is OHKOed by CB CC or Stone Edge. Choice Specs Latios is the only one that got real counters (it can screw them up with trick/Psycho Shock though)
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I'd rather use smeargle as a magic coat passer.
I think Jumpman's point was that all the other scarfed pokemon had no way of ensuring their 2hkos on everything. Terrakion isn't going to be nabbing any 2hkos on golurk any time soon, nor will it be doing so to tangrowth, slowbro, etc.
Meanwhile, breloom is nabbing 2hkos with RESISTED attacks. It doesn't exactly need to predict what the opponent will switch in. Just attack it anyway.
I think Jumpman's point was that all the other scarfed pokemon had no way of ensuring their 2hkos on everything. Terrakion isn't going to be nabbing any 2hkos on golurk any time soon, nor will it be doing so to tangrowth, slowbro, etc.
Meanwhile, breloom is nabbing 2hkos with RESISTED attacks. It doesn't exactly need to predict what the opponent will switch in. Just attack it anyway.
I don't think you realize what I'm getting at by "guarantee". CB Mach Punch from Techniloom does 60-71% to Haxorus. OHKOs Terrakion, scarf or CB. Latios takes at least 36% on a resist, scarf or specs. And just so you don't ministerpret this as me showing how Breloom beats x pokemon you mentioned, I will be clear. Early- to mid-game. Breloom threatens Spore with the new sleep mechanics, and is at greater liberty to actually utilize Low Sweep to make itself into the force I pointed out in my first post. Late game, Breloom can "fall back" on arguably the best priority in the game, on pokemon that will be weakened enough to fall basically to Mach Punch itself. Then there's the part that others have mentioned as well as me where Breloom can actually use the best move in the game in place of the worst one, and pose the threat it is "expected to".
The beauty of this set is that Breloom doesn't have to rely just on sheer force to cause major headaches...it can employ unbeatable speed itself with Mach Punch or support itself and teammates (Gliscor isn't going to like being slower than Politoed after Gliscor switching into a "meaningless" Ankle Sweep). Hell, ask Excadrill and Heatran why they aren't in the top-5 and they will immediately point to Conkeldurr's existence.
Interestingly, I have used all of the pokemon you've mentioned (in the Battle Subway but damage output is damage output) an awful lot...like, over 500 battles with Terrakion and Latios (even with Trick and Psyshock) and close to 200 with Haxorus, and I'm all to familiar with how good they are. If Techniloom is ever released I would be silly not to give it a long look even with Low Sweep and Spore not having the same effect ingame (and with SE have the same one, being the worst move in the game, magnified tenfold).
I'm just glad that almost all of those calculations depend on stealth rock and/or a switch in to low sweep, because breloom is easily stopped otherwise.
Boy, I hope his thing never gets released.
Technichian Breloom is like Game Freak decided that Scizor just wasn't good enough. The thing is, I don't think Technichian Breloom really needs Spore that much-I don't want to bother with sleeping things when I could just be killing them.
Although Jump, on your proposed CB set, why bother with Stone Edge when you have Rock Tomb? Same accuracy, more pp, and over two turns (accounting for speed drop) it hits for 1.5x more damage.
Technichian Breloom is like Game Freak decided that Scizor just wasn't good enough. The thing is, I don't think Technichian Breloom really needs Spore that much-I don't want to bother with sleeping things when I could just be killing them.
Although Jump, on your proposed CB set, why bother with Stone Edge when you have Rock Tomb? Same accuracy, more pp, and over two turns (accounting for speed drop) it hits for 1.5x more damage.