Agreed with snow warning + snow cloak
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np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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OK but Mamoswine OHKOs Empoleon, 2HKOs Snorlax and Milotic, so how do you deal with Blizzard when one of the best Hail Pokemon destroys whatever you have to take the attacks and hail itself is cancelling your leftovers and wearing you away? Throw in the added annoyance of random Snow Cloak misses at crucial moments and you're screwed.
So your problem is Mamoswine and Snow Cloak?
Mamoswine destroys most of UU anyway so i don't really get why it matters only for Blizzspam and not offense in general.
And Snow Cloak is already a problem so...
If you take out Mamo,which does the same for all offensive teams(if you take out Snow Cloak) and Snow Cloak,which is already a problem,then we conclude that Blizzspam is manageable right?
Mamoswine destroys most of UU anyway so i don't really get why it matters only for Blizzspam and not offense in general.
And Snow Cloak is already a problem so...
If you take out Mamo,which does the same for all offensive teams(if you take out Snow Cloak) and Snow Cloak,which is already a problem,then we conclude that Blizzspam is manageable right?
More often than we're admitting to, you're going to face at least one of your pokemon frozen solid vs a hail team. That's if they don't get outright destroyed by the attack. My Snorlax, Suicune, and Milotic aren't very effective vs well built hail teams because Brosnow shits all over them.
Usually when I'm facing a hail team I think "Aww fuck, I hope none of my pokemon get frozen or suffer a game changing miss." It's never me hoping that I'm better than the other guy, because with all the uncompetitive factors involved with hail, even a significantly worse player can come out on top.
Usually when I'm facing a hail team I think "Aww fuck, I hope none of my pokemon get frozen or suffer a game changing miss." It's never me hoping that I'm better than the other guy, because with all the uncompetitive factors involved with hail, even a significantly worse player can come out on top.
If you center your team around spamming Blizzard, you're going to lose more often than not. Without Spikes, that's not doing any damage to Milotic or Suicune. Abomasnow can handle those two (before he's burned by Scald, that is), but then here comes Chandelure/Cobalion/Victini/Darmintan. Fuck.
Hail teams this round are spamming Spikes, Earthquakes, and Leech Seed because that's what three of their best and most consistent members are meant to do. Abomasnow and Froslass are going to be using Blizzard when they know they can kill something, not every single turn waiting for Snorlax or Suicune can come in so that they can freeze. Come to think of it, the only real offensive Blizzard users are things like Jynx, Glaceon, and Vanilluxe who are just not good Pokemon on their own. Case in point: Blizzard spamming doesn't work. It stands to reason why no one is using this strategy or winning with it.
Snow Cloak is not a strategy, it just happens. Flip a coin and lose the game. It's just like Moody and Sand Veil on Garchomp. Nothing else Hail can do even compares to this. Once we get rid of that, it's going to be just as niche as Sand is now. Aside from the occassional Stallrein and non-broken 'Blizzspam' (which we didn't ban even in Gen 4 where we had less tools to deal with it), what's it going to do?
Hail teams this round are spamming Spikes, Earthquakes, and Leech Seed because that's what three of their best and most consistent members are meant to do. Abomasnow and Froslass are going to be using Blizzard when they know they can kill something, not every single turn waiting for Snorlax or Suicune can come in so that they can freeze. Come to think of it, the only real offensive Blizzard users are things like Jynx, Glaceon, and Vanilluxe who are just not good Pokemon on their own. Case in point: Blizzard spamming doesn't work. It stands to reason why no one is using this strategy or winning with it.
Snow Cloak is not a strategy, it just happens. Flip a coin and lose the game. It's just like Moody and Sand Veil on Garchomp. Nothing else Hail can do even compares to this. Once we get rid of that, it's going to be just as niche as Sand is now. Aside from the occassional Stallrein and non-broken 'Blizzspam' (which we didn't ban even in Gen 4 where we had less tools to deal with it), what's it going to do?
Snow was BL last gen so Hail/Blizzard spam was highly nerfed. That being said, I have played around with Hail for a couple days now, nothing hardcore due to finals, but these are the things I noticed. Lure and Champ are hell for them. Two, Lass doesn't do all too much without hail. Three Scarf Snow is a boss. Also I have found that I really only get one SC miss per a game, and it is rarely winning me the match, but of course for the record, luck hates me and I have gone at least 10 matches where all my moves have missed in the last 3 monthes (not vs SC)
Well the most prominent thing about hail right now IS snow cloak, because blizzspam is really no different than any other type stacking team, like 4drag2mag in OU, the fact that it's weather related is actually a disadvantage, because if said team loses it's Hail, they're borderline screwed. Snow cloak though takes it to another level, it means that all that vicious offense now can have almost guaranteed spikes (lass) or gamebreaking misses (glaceon and mamo). It introduces an element of luck that takes a legit strategy and pushes it over the edge. Whereas it can still be beaten by opposing weather, it means you have to run your own just to negate their luck. The only other options against snow cloak are infinitely accurate moves which are all conveniently on slow pokemon who are weak to ice. Machamp being the exception but he's 2hko'd by most blizzards meaning he can't even switch in. The only thing I can come up with would be modest scarf magneton with magnet bomb, he could theoretically fight hail well enough.
Actually just Abomasnow was banned. snover was still around and blizzspam became a dominent force in post Gen 4
Against chandelure and machamp there are snorlax and slowbro on hail teams
Where are these "blizzspam" teams that have been a big hype on this discussion? We had that 1 day fad of the 3 snow cloak abuser, but yet have i seen nor battled any blizzspam team
xD I meant snow as Abomasnow, which is a a huge nerf to hail. But hmm...I keep forgeting Snor is UU this gen >.> will have to try that. Just a herp derp to slowbro..should have thought of that sooner. I shall shift this team up and report back with how it does!
Edit: Slowbro helps a ton, still team doesn't seem overly overwelming, powerful but outside of lass (and Deo D) nothing seems really that powerful. I had tried Glaceon and Mamo on it. Glaceon is meh, Mamo...yeah he is a problem when you miss it.....
Why can't you take Blizzards with Milotic / Empoleon / specially-defensive Escavalier / Snorlax / you get my drift?
Loss of Snow Cloak also indirectly results in less Blizzard-spamming, allowing offensive teams to wreck Hail teams before Hail teams wreck them (well, it's up to the player's skill as to who gets wrecked first). Offensive teams wouldn't have to stomach an additional Blizzard because of a miss, effectively preserving their Hail check.
Loss of Snow Cloak also indirectly results in less Blizzard-spamming, allowing offensive teams to wreck Hail teams before Hail teams wreck them (well, it's up to the player's skill as to who gets wrecked first). Offensive teams wouldn't have to stomach an additional Blizzard because of a miss, effectively preserving their Hail check.
1. Wouldn't Abomasnow just use Wood Hammer?
2. Darmanitan, Victini, and Chandelure are usually Choice Scarfed. One Flare Blitz, Fire Blast, or V-Create and Abomasnow is burnt to a crisp. Seriously, I use a Calm Mind Cobalion with no Special Defense EVs. Cobalion doesn't give a shit about Blizzard. It will just hit back or outspeed and KO with its Fighting and Steel type STABs.
On another note, why is Machamp used a lot less than it should be. It wakes up every morning and it could eat Corn Flakes or Hail for breakfast. In OU it ate Corn Flakes. In UU it eats Hail. For Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner.
Machamp isn't a stop to Hail, stop touting it like it is. You know what happens if Mamo or Lass sets up a Sub before you send Machamp in? Machamp loses.
Even if you take out Frosslass/Mamo, you'll just get revenged by -insert hail team member here-. Machamp isn't CB Scizor, just having Bullet Punch isn't enough.
I'll admit I haven't played all too much this round, but I'm not making ridiculous claims like these.
Even if you take out Frosslass/Mamo, you'll just get revenged by -insert hail team member here-. Machamp isn't CB Scizor, just having Bullet Punch isn't enough.
I'll admit I haven't played all too much this round, but I'm not making ridiculous claims like these.
He never meant Abomasnow staying in and confronting them 1 vs 1 but rather all the other mons who would check/counter Blizzspam from Abomasnow switching in on an attack. None of which would enjoy switching in on a STAB Blizzard. Milotic would be the reverse scenario but it should be obvious what a x4 resist to Scald would mean in the long run compared to being hit by x2 resist Blizzard, as well as needing to switch out.
I don't even understand this D: In anycase hasn't this been discussed already given that no decent hail player wouldn't have a counter measure against Machamp and once he switches out he won't be able to repeatedly take STAB Blizzards or entry hazards/hail damage. Its only a matter of wearing him down. He is in most cases a check than a counter as its still quite easy to prepare for him, and as I said any decent hail team would have a fighting resist in the first place usually you'd see Slowbro/bulky water/Xatu/Nidoqueen/etc (there are a lot of common hail members that deal with him just fine).
I am just going ot back the point up above me by saying, until I put slowbro on my hail team Machamp ran through it hardcore, now I laugh at it.....yeah xD
Don't forget about Rotom-F which will cripple your Blizzard switch-in with Thunder Wave (GG Cobalion) or just outright kill with Thunderbolt. It's not like BlizzSpam only spams Blizzard, they have regular offense to kill Blizzard checks just like a regular offensive teams kill their checks, but in addition to that they also have Blizzard spamming which makes it broken. Also, any members weak to ice (that's a lot of Pokes) is essentially dead weight so it's like starting the match 5-6 or something.
Also none of the checks can really switch in for free into Abomasnow, considering it has access Wood Hammer to hammer bulky waters and Earthquake to damage steels. Cobalion's balloon let's it switch in once safely and that's kinda it. I think Registeel can come in through and take an Earthquake well, but then you better hope that it's not the sub-seed set.
I think BlizzSpam is broken even without Snow Cloak, considering how it was a force to be reckon'd with even last gen when they had to use Snover, but access to Abomasnow means a bunch of the checks still get killed.
Also none of the checks can really switch in for free into Abomasnow, considering it has access Wood Hammer to hammer bulky waters and Earthquake to damage steels. Cobalion's balloon let's it switch in once safely and that's kinda it. I think Registeel can come in through and take an Earthquake well, but then you better hope that it's not the sub-seed set.
I think BlizzSpam is broken even without Snow Cloak, considering how it was a force to be reckon'd with even last gen when they had to use Snover, but access to Abomasnow means a bunch of the checks still get killed.
The prelim vote has determined that Abomasnow will be the next UU Suspect. I'm sure another IRC senate chat will be scheduled soon. Until then, make sure to let your opinion on the issue be known, whether through forum posts or by stopping by #genvuu to discuss the issue with anyone that's on at the time!
interesting to say the least - at least we'll keep Froslass, who pretty much Spikes on UU alongside Roserade and to a lesser extent Deoxys-D. I still really think that Snow Cloak + Snow Warning would have been a solution but this is just another interpretation of what the root of the actual problem is.
Abomasnow? Really? Why?
Evolite Snover is about as bulky as Aboma (slightly less physically, slightly more specially) meaning it can pull off a Leech Seed set about as well. Better, actually, due to lower HP. Abomasnow isn't threatening on those dumb hail teams that use sash aboma, it's threatening because the leech seed variants use the bulky waters and normals that can stand up to Blizzard as setup fodder. Imo banning Abomasnow isn't nearly analogous to banning Big hippo - Snover can still counter Milotic, Blastoise, Slowbro, Empoleon, etc the same way Abomasnow can. The only thing we're doing is forcing hail to run a defensive weather starter instead of using it as a suboptimal offensive Pokemon.
If someone has logs of the arguments used for the senate to come to this conclusion, I would be very interested in seeing them.
Honestly, I'd say either get rid of Snow Warning, Snow Cloak, or do a complex ban with both. I don't think getting rid of Aboma will balance hail, this isn't 4th gen.
Evolite Snover is about as bulky as Aboma (slightly less physically, slightly more specially) meaning it can pull off a Leech Seed set about as well. Better, actually, due to lower HP. Abomasnow isn't threatening on those dumb hail teams that use sash aboma, it's threatening because the leech seed variants use the bulky waters and normals that can stand up to Blizzard as setup fodder. Imo banning Abomasnow isn't nearly analogous to banning Big hippo - Snover can still counter Milotic, Blastoise, Slowbro, Empoleon, etc the same way Abomasnow can. The only thing we're doing is forcing hail to run a defensive weather starter instead of using it as a suboptimal offensive Pokemon.
If someone has logs of the arguments used for the senate to come to this conclusion, I would be very interested in seeing them.
Honestly, I'd say either get rid of Snow Warning, Snow Cloak, or do a complex ban with both. I don't think getting rid of Aboma will balance hail, this isn't 4th gen.
Snover is really shitty. It has awful stats, and no Leftovers. Sure, it can run subseed, but it isn't that good without leftovers. Also losing Abomasnow means that you have one less Pokemon to spam Blizzard and hit bulky Water-types with Wood Hammer. (If Snover was a better subseeder than Abomasnow you would see at least a few on the ladder, and I've seen literally none...) Snover is actually in a similar boat to Hippopotas; it can still switch into physical attackers and set up Stealth Rock like its older brother, but that's just about it. You could make the same arguement for banning Hippowdon, but it really fixed that situation. And anyways, if banning Abomasnow doesn't solve the problem, we can just ban Snover too. (srsly, complex bans are soooooo gay)
I was a big proponent of banning little hippo over big hippo because little hippo couldn't beat any of stoutland's counters like big hippo could, and in general couldn't handle Pokemon that gave sand trouble as well as big hippo. Snover still beats all the bulky waters and most bulky normals that aboma beats, so I'm not seeing how getting rid of it nerfs hail to any significant degree. I shouldn't have said it was a better subseeder though, I just meant that its HP means subseeding is more effective.
Abomasnow's offenses are about 1.5x as good as Snover's, but I remain unconvinced that this counts for very much, since the most effective Abomasnow users I've run into leverage its typing and bulk as opposed to using Wood Hammer.
Abomasnow's offenses are about 1.5x as good as Snover's, but I remain unconvinced that this counts for very much, since the most effective Abomasnow users I've run into leverage its typing and bulk as opposed to using Wood Hammer.
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