Cloud Nine: Anti-Weather Discussion

I'm suprised no one has mentioned this yet, but the best way to counter weather and weather abusers are entry hazards, bar none. Stealth Rocks+Spikes is the most effective combination to stopping weather abuse. Entry hazards effectiveness stem from the fact that weather-starters must switch-in every time to set up weather. When the weather abusers take, on average, ~25% from just switching in, you will be limiting and preventing your oppennents setup opportunities. Hazards give the advantage of allowing you to run a free slot on your team not dedicated to a specific pokemon stopping weather, but a multitude of defensive walls (which you probably already would have ran anyway) and they effect every opponents pokemon.

The most important piece of knowledge that I have found out about hazards vs weather starters is that entry hazard damage takes place before the weather induces. This can prevent late-game setup of weather, which could a huge factor to allow you to win and stopping weather-based sweepers.
 
ITT: why alphatron is my favorite user.

I personally find this discussion to be misled. I've resigned myself to the fact that weather is the metagame and you can too. The way I see it, when you put effort on your team into countering weather archetypes you've already lost the game.

Each Pokemon should be seen as an individual threat. I don't quite know how to express it, but there is no "rain team." there is "Politoed." or "Toxicroak." You need to build a team to beat Pokemon, not teams. Trying to make an anti-weather team that can GOSH DARN IT GET RID OF WEATHER is pointless. I've tried this I don't even know how many times. It never works.

When you make an anti-weather team, you need to accept that you'll be losing the weather war. Your strength is that weather inducers are horrible Pokemon. Know that it's your six inferior Pokemon to his five superior, because that is your strength. When you start trying to counter weather it's your five/four/three inferior to his five superior, and then you're done.

My recent, fairly successful weatherless team was Hyreigon/Breloom/Slowbro/Blissey/Starmie/Scizor. Notice anything? It's six good Pokemon with decent synergy, and it doesn't aim to care what the weather is. I don't know if I can stress this more, a weatherless team must not be an Anti-weather team. You need to accept that your weather opponent controls the field and you need to know that you CANNOT COUNTER EFFECTS, BUT YOU CAN COUNTER POKEMON.

I hope I made sense in this post.
The point of this thread is to try to come up with effective pokemon to make King Weather NOT the entire metagame. And some of the suggestions are actually decent in that regard. While it helps to have one poke with a random weather move, it's not entirely NECESSARY.

Why should we just "accept" that we are losing the weather war when we can use strategy to WIN the weather war without having weather? (I know that sounds counterintuitive, but hang with me). One great anti-Sun set I've used before is Trace Gardevoir.

Gardevoir @Life Orb
Trace
Timid Nature
4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
>Psychic
>Thunderbolt
>Hidden Power Fire/Ice
>Focus Blast

This set aims to take advantage of Sun teams by trolling their Chlorophyll abusers. Switch Gardevoir in on a Chlorophyll sweeper, Trace Chlorophyll, and suddenly you outspeed them and can abuse their own weather with Hidden Power Fire. Politoed-less Rain teams with Swift Swimmers also hate this set because of Thunderbolt.

To respond to your last paragraph, it IS possible to counter effects instead of pokemon. Most weather teams have their entire team built around abusing said effect. That's why for a while before Excadrill+Thunderus were banned, we'd see Ttar/Excadrill/Scizor/Jirachi/Gliscor/Latios or Politoed/Rotom-W/Ferrothorn/Jellicent/Thundurus/Toxicroak. Why did we see these teams? Because the weather teams built the strategy around the EFFECT, NOT INDIVIDUAL POKEMON. Therefore, the best way to stop them is to counter their EFFECT, whether that be by countering multiple abusers with a single set or by switching the effect.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
To respond to your last paragraph, it IS possible to counter effects instead of pokemon. Most weather teams have their entire team built around abusing said effect. That's why for a while before Excadrill+Thunderus were banned, we'd see Ttar/Excadrill/Scizor/Jirachi/Gliscor/Latios or Politoed/Rotom-W/Ferrothorn/Jellicent/Thundurus/Toxicroak. Why did we see these teams? Because the weather teams built the strategy around the EFFECT, NOT INDIVIDUAL POKEMON. Therefore, the best way to stop them is to counter their EFFECT, whether that be by countering multiple abusers with a single set or by switching the effect.
If you counter multiple abusers with a single set, then you're countering Pokemon, not the effect. If you change the effect, you're not running a weatherless team. My point is that when building a team, you should not tell yourself "I should have a counter to Rain." You SHOULD tell yourself "I should have a counter to Jellicent, Toxicroak, Rotom-W, and Tornadus." Do you get the difference? The first loses you battles; the second wins you them.
 
By countering the abusers of the said effect, you are countering the effect.

EDIT: Effects are useless without abusers. I don't just slap Trick Room on every team I make, for example. Therefore, countering abusers is tantamount to countering the effect.

Anyways, this thread is ABOUT COUNTERING WEATHER, so just posting in the thread about how countering weather is pointless doesn't help the discussion at all.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
To respond to your last paragraph, it IS possible to counter effects instead of pokemon. Most weather teams have their entire team built around abusing said effect. That's why for a while before Excadrill+Thunderus were banned, we'd see Ttar/Excadrill/Scizor/Jirachi/Gliscor/Latios or Politoed/Rotom-W/Ferrothorn/Jellicent/Thundurus/Toxicroak. Why did we see these teams? Because the weather teams built the strategy around the EFFECT, NOT INDIVIDUAL POKEMON. Therefore, the best way to stop them is to counter their EFFECT, whether that be by countering multiple abusers with a single set or by switching the effect.
Scizor, Jirachi, and Latios are not sand abusers. You just saw them on common sand teams, so you put counters to those pokemon in your teams. They aren't sand in itself.

Before excadrill was banned, most sand teams were built...around him. He was a great sweeper under tyranitar's careful watch, but needed support to get around his counters and checks, such as skarmory, gliscor, conkeldurr, and azumarril. Sand teams began packing magnezone to trap skarmory, or pokemon who would attract gliscor's attention such as terrakion or hp ice landorus.

If a sand team carries heatran and magnezone, is skarmory still a counter to sand teams? The answer is no, but skarmory is still a counter to the excadrill that gave you so many problems to begin with. Some teams carried tangrowth back then. If you asked their creators why, they would say, "Tangrowth is a great excadrill counter."

That's what we mean by countering pokemon, but not effects. You don't counter the effects because...you can't. You listed gardevoir as a great anti-sun pokemon. Well, what about the sun teams that utilize dugtrio, volcorona, lilligant, sawsbuck, snorlax, or blissey/chansey? Gardevoir does nothing against any of those pokemon (and loses you the whole game vs. volcorona). How is it a sun counter when it is nothing but a potential annoyance for the team at large?

Going on, why would I use this when it doesn't do anything outside of revenge venusaur? What is it doing against rain teams? (sand teams are unphazed).

I would much rather prefer a choice scarf terrakion, who can easily revenge the common modest life orb venusaur after it kills something. Not only that, but it takes out volcorona after a quiver dance, can revenge and check a +1 dragonite trying to abuse the drought boost on his fire attacks, kills snorlax, kills specially defensive heatran, and can actually take out Ninetales (which gardevoir fails to do). Not only that, but choice scarf terrakion is useful to me even when I'm not facing sun teams. He does all of this without being specially built to take on an entire team archtype as well.

If we're going to look for pokemon who can aide us against enemy weather, we should be looking for pokemon like him.

If it comes off to anyone that I seem a bit antsy about this, I'm not. But I do get annoyed at seeing pokemon put on teams for the sole purpose of fighting a specific weather. I once fought against a sun team that carried a dry skin sword's dance toxicroak. I assume my opponent was using it as a counter for rain teams. That life orb toxicroak wasn't helping him one bit when it kept losing hp under his own sunlight and became setup fodder for my volcorona, and I surely can't imagine it taking him to victory in most of his battles.

ITT: why alphatron is my favorite user.
<3
 

Katakiri

Listen, Brendan...
is a Researcher Alumnus
Okay this thread clearly isn't going how it should. I do agree we should be focusing on the Pokemon themselves and not the effect of or the starters of weather. This really should have at least started with an overview of weather showing exactly what we're trying to beat and should be discussing. This'll probably take a while but I'll give it a shot here.


Sand
Overview: While Excadrill is banished to Ubers and Sandslash is unreleased, Sand doesn't have many things at all that heavily benefit from Sandstorm but the Pokemon that do are very good. Tyranitar gets a Sp.Def boost while Landorus gets a x1.3 boost to the Ground & Rock moves he carries. Outside of the rare Stoutland & Sand Force Hippowdon, not a lot of other Pokemon can say that they can benefit from Sandstorm, but that's not to say Pokemon aren't hindered by it. Non-Ground.Rock/Steel Pokemon take damage at the end of each turn, which also negates Leftovers, limiting the effectiveness of walls and reducing the longevity of Sweepers.

The Usual Suspects:
Tyranitar (Boosted SpDef)
Sand Stream Hippowdon
Landorus
Terrakion (Boosted SpDef)
Poison Heal Gliscor
Sand Veil Gliscor
Stoutland
Reuniclus (No Sand Damage)

Honorable Mentions:
Sand Force Hippowdon
Cradily (Boosted SpDef)
Regirock (Boosted SpDef)
Alakazam (No Sand Damage)

Dream World/Unreleased:
Excadrill (Still legal in DW OU)
Sand Rush Sandslash
Sand Force Gigalith (Boosted SpDef)


Rain
Overview: Rain teams have a lot going for them and is abuse-able by far more Pokemon than Sand. The most notable thing Rain does is increase the power of Water-type moves by x1.5 and halves the effectiveness of Fire-type attacks. This lets every Water-type and every Pokemon weak to Fire take advantage of the Rain in some way and that's not even counting abilities that activate in Rain. Luckily, the combination of Swift Swim and Drizzle is banned. The other selling points of Rain are that Thunder & Hurricane have 100 Accuracy which can be devastating combined with their 30% crippling effect rates.

The Usual Suspects:
Politoed
Tornadus
Starmie
Gyarados
Special Dragonite
Ferrothorn in Rain (x2 weak to Fire)
Scizor in Rain (x2 weak to Fire)
Tentacruel
Vaporeon
Toxicroak
Jellicent
Skarmory in Rain (Neutral to Fire)
Cloyster
Gorebyss
Raikou
The list just goes on and on, guys.

Honorable Mentions:
Ugh.

Dream World/Unreleased:
Lightning Rod Zapdos
Thundurus (Still legal in DW OU)
Genesect
Keldeo
Volt Absorb Raikou


Sun:
Overview: Sun is a very odd case. Due to Fire-type attacks being strengthened, it makes already devastating sweepers like Volcarona, Darmanitan, Chandelure, Dragonite, and Salamence much, much more powerful. But with Water & Rock-types naturally being strong against & resisting Fire-types combined with a Stealth Rock weakness, most Fire-type sweeper just aren't cutting it in OU. To add insult to injury, Politoed & Tyranitar can switch freely into most Fire-type attacks and remove their weather-boost as well as resist the attack. But there is a silver lining to Sun; Chlorophyll Sweeper are Grass-types which would just love Tyranitar or Politoed to switch into their attacks. On top of that, Grass-types resist all of Fire-type's weaknesses minus Rock and the reverse can be said as well minus Flying. Even at it's very core, Sun teams are generally very synergy-based which makes them surprisingly difficult to take down, especially with how many Pokemon such as Dragonite would love their non-STAB Fire moves to receive a x1.5 boost. Sun teams, in reality, can be as diverse as the player wants them to be.

The Usual Suspects:
Ninetales
Volcarona
Venusaur
Darmanitan
Lilligant
Heatran
Infernape
Sawsbuck
Dragonite (boosted Fire Punch)
Victini
Salamence
Tangrowth
Chandelure

Honorable Mentions:
Solar Power Charizard
Snorlax (Boosted Fire Punch and walls Fire-types with Thick Fat)
Arcanine

Dream World/Unreleased:
GOOD Venusaur (Power Whip & Giga Drain)
Shadow Tag Chandelure


Hail:

Overview: Hail is...a mixed bag. It's in no way bad, in fact Hail itself is a very good field effect. On the plus side; 100% Accurate Blizzard is ridiculous, Snow Cloak is the stupidest thing since Sand Veil, and all non-Ice-type Pokemon lose HP each turn, negating Leftovers. The minus side? Well Ice is a very poor defensive typing meaning your non-Ice-type walls get their Leftovers negated. Blizzard is resisted by Politoed & Ninetales with Tyranitar getting a free x1.5 SpDef boost every time he switches in means that the biggest advantage Hail has is easily stopped, but unlike Sun, Hail doesn't have anything else that benefits from it. For Hail to be effective it NEEDS to remove the other team's Weather Starter. Fortunately for Hail, Abomasnow maims Politoed & Tyranitar with Wood Hammer and Abomasnow's typing is the most infuriating thing Water-types run into, resisting Water, Electric, Grass, Ground, & neutrality to Ice. That alone drives Politoed & pals insane.

The Usual Suspects:
Abomasnow
Kyurem
Snow Cloak Mamoswine
Froslass
Walrein
Starmie
Reuniclus (No Hail Damage)
Alakazam (No Hail Damage)

Honorable Mentions:
Ice Body Glaceon

Dream World/Unreleased:
Ice Body Regice
Snow Cloak Articuno



Eh. Not bad for 30 minutes. I probably missed some things but there's what we're dealing with for the most part. Hopefully having weather all laid out like that adds a little more direction and helps us pinpoint what Anti-Weather should be. To be honest, Anti-Weather is that thing that everyone talks about it but I've never heard of anyone do it with notable success. I've seen another thread before but iirc not a lot was accomplished and the metagame has changed a lot since then, I really hope this thread changes that.
 

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