Research Week #6: Dreams of the Future

Hydreigon and Genesect certainly can't be compared, the pool of what they can and can't revenge is completely different, not to mention Genesect hits hard on the physical side.

The Chandelure argument is stupid, and can be applied to any Pokemon weak to it. Oh yeah, +1 Thunderbolts or Thunders (if you want to use that) will hurt Chandelure heavily. It's not like Genesect can't adapt either, it NEEDS three moves, you can put HP Rock in the last slot and be no worse off in the majority of your games, not to mention it hits Ho-Oh too, whom you have trouble harming without boosted Thunder.

It's almost an equal case of having an advantage in not to being weak to Chandelure and having a disadvantage by being weak to Chandelure, considering the vast number of Pokemon it can effectively trap and kill.

The Chandelure argument is also really null when you can U-Turn out to Palkia or something to take it on. I would also much rather use Genesect more than Hydregion: it actually has quid decent defenses, more than you might expect due to it's Steel typing giving it a ton of Resists, and download will always help it be able to hit hard. It can be used quite well on a Rain team for neutralizing the Fire weakness and being able to take on Lati@s well, while Kyogre can deter things like Ho-Oh too.

shit yeh :D

ill try genesect or keldeo

ladder's been reset right? ill be under puregenius

You know it's pretty hard to ladder with all these server crashes happening lately.. Heck I have only done 2 matchs today!

Darkaxis said:

You know it's pretty hard to ladder with all these server crashes happening lately.. Heck I have only done 2 matchs today!

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I have to agree with this, the only reason I've had a solid look a Genesect is because I take a tour to PO and ladder there for a bit.

If the server crashing becomes a huge problem, we will stretch the deadline a bit more so you guys will have more time. I am updating everything up right now, and Mr.lol if you want to go into the Archive you must pastebin your team!

Yeah going to try out Genesect and Keldeo under barry4ever. From what I've seen till now, Genesect is fucking amazing. All you need to do is get something like SR + a layer of spikes up, this is ridiculously easy now thanks to Custap Forry and Deoxys-S, and then you're already to keep U-Turning and building momentum till you're ready to sweep with some other Pokemon.

Hmmm, very interesting! I wil be using Genesect. My Alt Name will be: Dusk [DW Uber].

I will be using the alt [TC]StarforceBN and i will be trying all three pokes
.

barry4ever said:

Yeah going to try out Genesect and Keldeo under barry4ever. From what I've seen till now, Genesect is fucking amazing. All you need to do is get something like SR + a layer of spikes up, this is ridiculously easy now thanks to Custap Forry and Deoxys-S, and then you're already to keep U-Turning and building momentum till you're ready to sweep with some other Pokemon.

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probably the only way gene can be useful vs stall is with spikes support. everytime i played with gene it was excellent vs offense, being able to come in 2-3 times and u-turn, but vs stall it never did anything.

gene might be a good stall team member. checks lati@s, ray, m2, darkrai, some arceus sets while u-turn allows you to bring the counter of the poke that switched in.

also its amazing that gene is such a great lead, chops kyogres hp in half

probably the only way gene can be useful vs stall is with spikes support. everytime i played with gene it was excellent vs offense, being able to come in 2-3 times and u-turn, but vs stall it never did anything.

gene might be a good stall team member. checks lati@s, ray, m2, darkrai, some arceus sets while u-turn allows you to bring the counter of the poke that switched in.

also its amazing that gene is such a great lead, chops kyogres hp in half

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Actually stall should be screwed by Genesect since it can just U-turn past the check that was supposed to come in to it and then go to something that can beat the intended check. With a few entry hazards, this damage can stack to the point where stall will be hard pressed to do anything but switch or risk losing a pokemon.

What I meant by the chandelure argument is that if Genesect revenges something with a move not named U-turn or Hidden Power Rock, Chandelure can come in and obliterate it where the same thing cannot happen to Hydregion. That and U-turning to revenge is a terrible idea since the other team can get offensive pressure then, by sending a check / counter to the pokemon sent in, whereas HP Rock does low damage due to its low BP (unless its Super Effective) and can be set-up on. I'm not trying to say Genesect is useless (its usable, and quite good by what others have said) but just trying to point out its flaws (and remark on how Hydregion performs so similarly to its DW niche.

Also has anyone tried a magic bounce partner like Xatu or Espeon with Genesect? It sounds like they'd pair nicely with the synergy (dark, ice, ghost, and bug attacks are resisted), and Genesect gets hazards removed from the field and on the opponent's side (Custap Forry and Deo-s have nothing on this).

Broke into Bronze Silver Gold class!


Mr.lol is, still, a fucking maniac, although I beat him. Poor mr.lol, got D/Ced as we battled :(

Team

Meloetta is EV'd that way so when in her Pirouette form, she outspeeds Darkrai and simply smacks with Close Combat. She's actually a good answer to sand teams; send her out first, Relic Song as Tyranitar uses Payback for the "kill" - which you now resist, and outright OHKO it with Close Combat. 20% Sleep with Relic Song is also pretty sexy, thanks to Serene Grace. 60% Paralyze is even better, haha. Mold Breaker Excadrill is the man, by the way. I also tried Latias over Giratina, and Skarmory over Ferrothorn, and damn I miss Soul Dew. Latias is really really good, which is why I changed the team to what it is now. Latios completely messed the game up for me, coming in, Draco Meteoring whatever, continuing to shred. It's very powerful, actually.

Here are two logs:
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Last-Hope-vs-Alex-Sun--11--2012-at-01h08-1
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Last-Hope-vs-Closure--13--2012-at-21h05 - I choked here against Ho-oh, but hey, Meloetta vs Tar! Oh and misclick turn 26...

Citing Furai's post as the screenshot to get into Silver Class.
If I really need to repost the team, its in the hide tag.


EDIT: I reached gold class
picture is here

I did change the team a bit though after I realized I was horribly Xatu and Latias weak (thank you teaching me that information the hard way Dusk). So I changed my Water Arceus to Ghostceus and added a Calm Mind Latias to stall break and crush any team utilizing Xatu stall (unless I get haxed). Ghostceus has Light Screen and Perish Song since it can't hope to win a Calm Mind war with Latias while Latias allows me to add a bit more offensive presence and doesn't make me totally rely on Meleotta. I also gave Forry Volt Switch to annoy Xatu more.

One thing I noticed while using Meloetta was its ability to lure and crush teh blobs. In fact its probably one of the two only special attackers that can do so but I didn't change the set since I liked having it clean late game. The other is Keldeo but its slower so...

New team is in hide tag

EDIT 3: LISTEN TO FURAI, but I'm at a new peak

Under the hide tag is screenshot of my higher rank

I've changed the team a bit again and will get it up in a minute

New team is in hidetag (I got rid of ghostceus, put waterceus back and got a legit stall breaker)


Team is still prone to changes though.

So I was in the middle of a battle and got disconnected, here is my peak as of now: http://i.imgur.com/bTDeN.png

Broke into Silver Class Gold Class!



The team.

I made the team a lot of changes and I think this is the final one. I tried Rock-Arceus, Deoxys-S, Rock Polish Genesect and Palkia but none of they could cover the troublesome threats to my team. Actually, I think I have a good team.

Now I will talk about Genesect. It is a great Pokémon, can deal big amounts of damage with his BoltBeam coverage and can scout with a boosted U-turn. Genesect is EV'd to outspeed common Scarf Pokémon with a Speed base of 90 (Obviosly with favorable nature in Speed stat; Jolly/Timid/Naive/Hasty) and allows he to outspeed Jolly Rayquaza after DD. Unfortunately, max Spd Genesect is unable to outspeed Scarf Palkia. So, I think this is the best EV distribution for Genesect. But really, it doesn't need max Speed, unless you want to speed tie another Genesect. I also test him with a Rock Polish set, but is far less effective than the Scarf one.

The set was that:

Genesect @ Life Orb
Trait: Download
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Rock Polish
- Thunder / Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Bug Buzz

The idea is to switch in a Pokémon that gives you +1 boost in SpA (Psychically Defensive Pokémon for example). Then you use Rock Polish to outspeed everything and after that you can start cleaning the Late Game with BoltBeam coverage (In Rain) and a powerfull Bug Buzz. Also, you can replace Thunder by Flamethrower if you are running a Sun team (I don't used Flamethrower, I used Thunderbolt. I get the idea to put as options Thunder and Flamethrower a few hours ago, though). This set requires entry hazards to work. Setting up SR and one layer of Spikes could be sufficient. Deoxys-S is a great partner to Genesect because Deoxys-S can put up SR and one layer of Spikes the most of the time. This set is crippled by Dialga, Ferrothorn, Specially Defensive Giratina and Chansey. Unfortunately, there is no Pokémon that can deal with all this four Pokémon, though. So, your best weapon is to cover threats with each team member you add. For example, Specs Dialga can deal with Ferrothorn and Giratina, while Chansey can get rid of Dialga (Dont' Bulk Up variant, though).

Log(s) (With the recent team): Here.

I will write some more things later.

Edit: I change Latias' EVs distribution for a better one. It gives me two more points in SpD and I have the same Spd. Also, I extended the description of RP Genesect.

Edit2: Now I am in Gold Class!

One more edit: Changed some EVs and added the team with the changed EVs to pastebin. And one more edit... removed the importable.

I'd like to add on to what Dusk said about Genesect. If anything I noticed with my battles with him, its that genesect is Cocytus for Stall teams AND a great Specs Ogre partner. Your probably wondering why right? Well, Genesect's ability to easily switch into Latias and force it to run for the hills or die in the face of a U-turn makes stall suffer. Oh and guess who's the number one Specs Ogre counter (THATS RIGHT ITS NOT A CHECK).

So after Specs Ogre's counter has run to the hills or died it can continue releasing salty waters / frozen beams of ice to force the enemy to cry and cringe and [insert verb synonymous to injure here] as it destroys something everytime it gets to come in safely. Genesects unique typing allows it to resist Latias's STABS, allowing it to switch into the poor jet plane should it dare try to confront Kyogre (or you can be a troll and switch Genesect in on predicted switches :D)

It just HAPPENS to be that Genesect gets U-turn also, which means that leviathan is going to be switching in VERY EASILY (Dusk please don't do this to my team though :(, you've tortured it enough). I'll let you calculate the damage that does to other teams :D.


Tag on Keldeo and its possible to punch (pun intended) even more holes onto a team's special walls since its counter is now gone but your team's likely going to start facing synergy issues then, so its generally not reccomended.

Lastly, I've grown in rank, here's the screenshot
Team's also changed (yes again), but its not that different, I just realized Grassceus is > Waterceus since type-stacking, well, isn't the smartest of ideas, and Chandelure can't OHKO with Light Screen up, that and Perish Song sucks since I can't put pressure on Gira-a's


EDIT: Lag causes too many d/c's :(

EDIT 2: NEW PEAK, and for some reason my old link was broken but Furai still managed to find my rank, too confusing.

Some good news people. Since the wait for Black 2 and White 2 is going to be annoying, we are extending this challenge to June 23rd!

I'll give it a try! Alt: Egilbo

Mr.lol said:

I'd like to add on to what Dusk said about Genesect. If anything I noticed with my battles with him, its that genesect is Cocytus for Stall teams AND a great Specs Ogre partner. Your probably wondering why right? Well, Genesect's ability to easily switch into Latias and force it to run for the hills or die in the face of a U-turn makes stall suffer. Oh and guess who's the number one Specs Ogre counter (THATS RIGHT ITS NOT A CHECK).

Hide

LATIAS

So after Specs Ogre's counter has run to the hills or died it can continue releasing salty waters / frozen beams of ice to force the enemy to cry and cringe and [insert verb synonymous to injure here] as it destroys something everytime it gets to come in safely. Genesects unique typing allows it to resist Latias's STABS, allowing it to switch into the poor jet plane should it dare try to confront Kyogre (or you can be a troll and switch Genesect in on predicted switches :D)

It just HAPPENS to be that Genesect gets U-turn also, which means that leviathan is going to be switching in VERY EASILY (Dusk please don't do this to my team though :(, you've tortured it enough). I'll let you calculate the damage that does to other teams :D.


Tag on Keldeo and its possible to punch (pun intended) even more holes onto a team's special walls since its counter is now gone but your team's likely going to start facing synergy issues then, so its generally not reccomended.

Lastly, I've grown in rank, here's the screenshot
Team's also changed (yes again), but its not that different, I just realized Grassceus is > Waterceus since type-stacking, well, isn't the smartest of ideas, and Chandelure can't OHKO with Light Screen up, that and Perish Song sucks since I can't put pressure on Gira-a's

Hide

Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 80 SDef / 176 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Recover
- Light Screen
- Judgment
- Roar

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Thunder
- Ice Beam

Forretress (M) @ Shed Shell
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Softboiled
- Toxic

Meloetta @ Life Orb
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Relic Song
- Close Combat
- Frustration
- Shadow Claw

Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SAtk / 56 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Aura Sphere

EDIT: Lag causes too many d/c's :(

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Just saying, you don't want to be switching Genesect into Latias too quickly, since you're still getting 2HKOed by Thunder. I mean, right now I'm only running 40 SpA on Latias and it's still an easy 2HKO. You're taking 53.71% - 63.25% from it, although I guess if Latias has taken a Water Spout or something it's not going to be in great shape either.

I have updated everything!

Shrang I meant something like this

Kyogre releases Specs Spout, Latias switches in, takes SR damage.
Latias Thunders / w.e -> Gensecet switch in
Genesect U-turns -> Latias switches or dies, momentum on other team, Latias vulnerable to dying to Specs Ice Beam (which you now spam?) (56.04 (Specs Ice Beam) + 12.5 + 12.5 + 32.69(Specs Spout) > 100%) keep in mind these calcs were all assuming the lowest roll possible and 252 HP Latias.

OR Kyogre releases Specs Spout, Latias switches in, takes SR damage
Latias Recovers -> Genesect switch in
Genesect U-turns -> Switch or faint, momentum on other team.

At that point you can just switch Genesect in on predicted Latias switch-ins and rack SR damage until they're in range for Specs Ice Beam. I thought more Latias would be running Psyshock then Thunder though, it still 2HKOes 252 HP Kyogre (unless someone's running Crogre (Kroger?)...) and allows it to win CM Wars with everything not named Mewtwo and Darkceus, and even then Thunder isn't that helpful for those match-ups.

I'm using the alt "Palkiamix". I'll be using Genesect of course.

I'mt testing keldeo under K-spin.
EDIT:
A little late (it is May 24th) but I got to bronze rank with Keldeo!


Ok so I used a Sub CM set with Keldeo and it was "ok" not that good due to the lack of bulk but it was far from awful too. Keldeo's bulk is its achilles heel (and Shrang Hydro Pump just missed on me 3 times D:) and it carries it a long way down. It will need support to nab a single Calm Mind, and it doesn't sweep the meta then no. It needs more help, hazards, spikes, all that stuff needs to be on the field to insure KOes AND the scarfer needs to be dead. Yeah it was "ok" I guess a team could use it but in my opinion its inferior to Mewtwo. I tried the double psychic strategy too. It went "ok" but then I replaced Mewtwo for Dialga since I wanted Stealth Rock and spikes support.

team btw is
Keldeo honestly doesn't need any coverage, a resisted Hydro Pump barely out damages a super effective Hidden Power.

Mr.lol said:

Shrang I meant something like this

Kyogre releases Specs Spout, Latias switches in, takes SR damage.
Latias Thunders / w.e -> Gensecet switch in
Genesect U-turns -> Latias switches or dies, momentum on other team, Latias vulnerable to dying to Specs Ice Beam (which you now spam?) (56.04 (Specs Ice Beam) + 12.5 + 12.5 + 32.69(Specs Spout) > 100%) keep in mind these calcs were all assuming the lowest roll possible and 252 HP Latias.

OR Kyogre releases Specs Spout, Latias switches in, takes SR damage
Latias Recovers -> Genesect switch in
Genesect U-turns -> Switch or faint, momentum on other team.

At that point you can just switch Genesect in on predicted Latias switch-ins and rack SR damage until they're in range for Specs Ice Beam. I thought more Latias would be running Psyshock then Thunder though, it still 2HKOes 252 HP Kyogre (unless someone's running Crogre (Kroger?)...) and allows it to win CM Wars with everything not named Mewtwo and Darkceus, and even then Thunder isn't that helpful for those match-ups.

Click to expand...

This used to be the bread and butter in GenIV with SpecsOgre/CBScizor. I don't know why people are still confused how does Genesect paired with Kyogre is a good combo against Latias. Scizor could even pursuit

Sadly i don't have enough to cover much, but I'll post the Genesect set I used and my peak (which even though it doesn't get any awards I'm happy about).


Trait: Download
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SAtk / 188 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Rock Polish
- Flamethrower
- Bug Buzz
- Thunderbolt

For me the ultimate late game sweeper it was great member of my team. I found after looking aimlessly on the net for about an hour. Anyway, Bug Buzz is STAB, flamethrower for the sun boost, (I was running a sun team) the original set had ice beam but i decided that my last move, thunderbolt, had all the coverage I required. Rock Polish allows me to set up on stuff like Forretress and proceed to outspend, and sweep (hopefully), for the rest of game.





I'm happy with this considering I'm not the best at laddering and this is my first RW. I can't wait for me to be able use Genesect in ubers (hopefully I'll be able to use this guy in OU as well).