I haven't heard of the PID value and I know I can't search for a 3-character term. What is this and is there a way to calculate/influence this value?
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DP Research Thread #1 ("Old")
- Thread starter Surgo
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I have a question about the ability "Download."
How much is the Attack/Special Attack increase? Is it a +1 (50%) or +2 (100%) increase? From the trait list on page 1, it seems like a +1 boost, whereas in a different thread in this forum, it is reported as +2.
Which is it?
How much is the Attack/Special Attack increase? Is it a +1 (50%) or +2 (100%) increase? From the trait list on page 1, it seems like a +1 boost, whereas in a different thread in this forum, it is reported as +2.
Which is it?
It's a +1 stat boost.
As an aside, we need information about the "Solar Power" ability (Tropius, Sunflora, Sunkern), since we still know next to nothing about it.
There's no info about Nature Power or Secret Power on the first page so I tested them myself:
Nature Power:
Road / Desert ~ Earthquake
Building ~ Tri Attack
Grass / Tall grass ~ Seed Bomb
Cave / Mountain ~ Rock Slide
Snow ~ Blizzard
Pond / Ocean ~ Hydro Pump
Secret Power:
Road / Desert ~ Lowers Accuracy 1 stage
Building ~ Paralyzes
Grass / Tall grass ~ Sleep
Cave / Mountain ~ Flinches
Snow ~ Freezes
Pond / Ocean ~ Lowers Attack 1 stage
Secret Power is pretty hot in the snowy terrain. This move would have been a lot better if it was special.
Nature Power:
Road / Desert ~ Earthquake
Building ~ Tri Attack
Grass / Tall grass ~ Seed Bomb
Cave / Mountain ~ Rock Slide
Snow ~ Blizzard
Pond / Ocean ~ Hydro Pump
Secret Power:
Road / Desert ~ Lowers Accuracy 1 stage
Building ~ Paralyzes
Grass / Tall grass ~ Sleep
Cave / Mountain ~ Flinches
Snow ~ Freezes
Pond / Ocean ~ Lowers Attack 1 stage
Secret Power is pretty hot in the snowy terrain. This move would have been a lot better if it was special.
There was some testing in another thread that seems to suggest that Technician boosts the power of Natural Gift if the held berry gives it 60 base power. Refer to http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=467804&postcount=28.
Whoa, and the chance of all of this happening is still 30%? In that case I should change Dunsparce around quite a bit.
Maybe you should hold off on that for a while. You can only get one effect in link\WiFi battles, and that's paralysis (I think) because they only have the Building arena. That makes it still inferior to Body Slam.
PBR, on the other hand, may have different effects entirely, and it has different arenas. Somebody with PBR should check it out.
Sorry for the double-post, but I've just discovered that Technician DOES work on Hidden Power!
The test subjects:
- one L84 Technician Ambipom with 23\11\23\5\0\20 IVs (HP Bug 33), with a Special Attack of 110
- one L78 Celebi with a Special Defense of 181
The null hypothesis: Technician does not work on Hidden Power. Therefore, it will have a damage range of 54-64 (according to Netbattle's damage calc)
The alternative hypothesis: Technician DOES work on Hidden Power, therefore it will have a damage range of 78-92.
So I went into a double battle and had Ambipom attack Celebi with HP Bug 33. First time it did 92 damage, second time it did 88. So Hidden Power clearly got the Technician boost here.
One really odd thing I noticed - early on I tested it with L81 Ambipom, but HP Bug 33 only dealt 72 damage to Celebi, which was slightly below the damage range it listed for the Technician boost (74-88). So I had to use a few Rare Candies to level it up a bit and double check to make sure I had gotten all the IVs right. So I can think of two things that might be responsible for this:
- The Hidden Power calculator in my stat calc is slightly wrong. Netbattle actually lists the Hidden Power for the same IVs as HP Bug 34. However, Netbattle cannot be right either, because the 72 damage still falls outside the damage range.
- The damage calc for Netbattle is slightly wrong. I looked at several ways to approximate the damage. The most accurate result, methinks, is when I plug in 49 for the move power (33 * 1.5, rounded down), getting a damage range of 73-86. But I also tried checking off STAB, the weather boost, and setting the battle mod to -1 (not all at once, of course).
Despite the odd discrepencies, it's pretty clear evidence that Technician does boost Hidden Power.
The test subjects:
- one L84 Technician Ambipom with 23\11\23\5\0\20 IVs (HP Bug 33), with a Special Attack of 110
- one L78 Celebi with a Special Defense of 181
The null hypothesis: Technician does not work on Hidden Power. Therefore, it will have a damage range of 54-64 (according to Netbattle's damage calc)
The alternative hypothesis: Technician DOES work on Hidden Power, therefore it will have a damage range of 78-92.
So I went into a double battle and had Ambipom attack Celebi with HP Bug 33. First time it did 92 damage, second time it did 88. So Hidden Power clearly got the Technician boost here.
One really odd thing I noticed - early on I tested it with L81 Ambipom, but HP Bug 33 only dealt 72 damage to Celebi, which was slightly below the damage range it listed for the Technician boost (74-88). So I had to use a few Rare Candies to level it up a bit and double check to make sure I had gotten all the IVs right. So I can think of two things that might be responsible for this:
- The Hidden Power calculator in my stat calc is slightly wrong. Netbattle actually lists the Hidden Power for the same IVs as HP Bug 34. However, Netbattle cannot be right either, because the 72 damage still falls outside the damage range.
- The damage calc for Netbattle is slightly wrong. I looked at several ways to approximate the damage. The most accurate result, methinks, is when I plug in 49 for the move power (33 * 1.5, rounded down), getting a damage range of 73-86. But I also tried checking off STAB, the weather boost, and setting the battle mod to -1 (not all at once, of course).
Despite the odd discrepencies, it's pretty clear evidence that Technician does boost Hidden Power.
Does Hitmonchan's Iron Fist boost it's Close Combat (As it's ingame animation is a barrage of punches)?
Metalkid tells me I couldn't have possibly have done 72 damage, either. It lists the damage range as 75-89.
And I hate working with his offline calculators because I can't just plug in numbers for the attacking\defending stats - no, I have go through all this "pick your IVs and EVs" crap.
First of all, kudos for this research.
Secondly, remember that the damage formula is different in DP than it is in Advance, so there might be some slight change in the damage from what Netbattle gives you. Also, I don't like the Netbattle damage calculator... it doesn't seem to be 100% accurate.
Thirdly, and this is the most important thing, Technician might not boost the 33 by 1.5, but it might boost the overall damage by 1.5. Or it might multiply the 1.5 before the random number generation, or before applying weakness. There are many options as to where the 1.5 is multiplied, which is probably the reason why you got slightly less damage than what you expected.
EDIT: Curiously, what was the Special Attack stat of Ambipom when at Level 81?
Ambipom's SpAttk was 107 at L81.
I don't think it multiplies the overall damage by 1.5x, because 54 to 64 multiplied by 1.5x becomes 81 to 96, not 78-92.
Actually, scratch that. Both my damage values still fall within that range, so I'll need to run a battery of samples to narrow down the actual range.
I don't think it multiplies the overall damage by 1.5x, because 54 to 64 multiplied by 1.5x becomes 81 to 96, not 78-92.
Actually, scratch that. Both my damage values still fall within that range, so I'll need to run a battery of samples to narrow down the actual range.
Well, if that's the case, the damage's range is either between 68 and 84, or between 72 and 88. In either case, 72 is included.
To get those values, the Technician boost must either be exactly before the +2 in the damage formula, or exactly after the +2 in the damage formula, or boosting the special attack stat. It doesn't boost the move power by 1.5, and it doesn't boost the overall damage by 1.5.
EDIT: I'm currently in the process of finalising the damage formula for DP. If you are using other damage formulae from other sources, be aware that most (if not all) of them are not yet 100% accurate. The damage might vary by 1 or 2, but, for testing purposes, it might not be good enough, so take their results with a pinch of salt until the formula is 100% finished.
Now this is interesting.
Out of all 18 HP Bug hits on Celebi, all did damages in multiples of four. Well, I suppose it makes sense, since Celebi does have that 4x weakness. But it shows that the damage range is calculated first, THEN multiplied by the 4x weakness.
Four of those hits were also critical hits. One of those damages was 164, which divided by 2 is 82, which is NOT a multiple of 4. So it could give some useful insight into where exactly the CH bonus is in the damage formula.
Or I could be telling you things you already know. ;] By the way, what's the damage range for the L81 Ambipom vs. the Celebi as described above using your preliminary damage formula, X-Act?
Out of all 18 HP Bug hits on Celebi, all did damages in multiples of four. Well, I suppose it makes sense, since Celebi does have that 4x weakness. But it shows that the damage range is calculated first, THEN multiplied by the 4x weakness.
Four of those hits were also critical hits. One of those damages was 164, which divided by 2 is 82, which is NOT a multiple of 4. So it could give some useful insight into where exactly the CH bonus is in the damage formula.
Or I could be telling you things you already know. ;] By the way, what's the damage range for the L81 Ambipom vs. the Celebi as described above using your preliminary damage formula, X-Act?
I experimented a little with Flower Gift; it says on the first page that it boosts the SpA of Cherrim by 1.5, but that doesn't seem possible.
All Pokemon in the test are either Cherrim, or Cherrim's partner in a double battle.
Lvl 25 59 SpA Cherrim Magical Leaf on Lvl 14 31 SpD/51 HP Starmie.
No flower Gift should yield 19 - 22 damage.
Test 1: 51 (OHKO)
Test 2: 51 (OHKO)
Test 3: 50
Unless I'm missing something, Cherrim's SpA has to be at least ~ 137 - 166, which is a ~2.3x - 2.8x boost. This is ignoring a possible SpDef boost via Flower Gift.
I also tested a little with Chansey.
Lvl 25 59 SpA Cherrim Magical Leaf on Lvl 17 45 SpD/123 HP Chansey.
No Flower Gift should yield 13 - 16 damage.
Test 1: 19
Test 2: 18
Test 3: 18
Test 4: 18
Test 5: 19
Magical Leaf would deal more damage with the 137 - 166 SpA, at least 29 -34, which indicates that Chansey's SpDef was boosted through Flower Gift.
I intend to test this further, but I'm not sure if I'm interpreting the description right. Is assume that "a boost" refers to the actual stat number, and not the base stat correct?
EDIT: Also, a 29 Speed Chansey tied in speed with a Meditite I was battling in a double battle (opponent's). Flower Gift was not in effect. During the course of another battle, the same Chansey, only this time with 28 Speed, never outran the Meditite. Flower Gift was in effect in this battle. 13 attacks were performed by Chansey during the sunlight, and not one of them struck before Meditite's attacks. It is possible that they were tied in speed, but the chances of Chansey not striking first during the 13 turns is, I believe, 1/8192.
All Pokemon in the test are either Cherrim, or Cherrim's partner in a double battle.
Lvl 25 59 SpA Cherrim Magical Leaf on Lvl 14 31 SpD/51 HP Starmie.
No flower Gift should yield 19 - 22 damage.
Test 1: 51 (OHKO)
Test 2: 51 (OHKO)
Test 3: 50
Unless I'm missing something, Cherrim's SpA has to be at least ~ 137 - 166, which is a ~2.3x - 2.8x boost. This is ignoring a possible SpDef boost via Flower Gift.
I also tested a little with Chansey.
Lvl 25 59 SpA Cherrim Magical Leaf on Lvl 17 45 SpD/123 HP Chansey.
No Flower Gift should yield 13 - 16 damage.
Test 1: 19
Test 2: 18
Test 3: 18
Test 4: 18
Test 5: 19
Magical Leaf would deal more damage with the 137 - 166 SpA, at least 29 -34, which indicates that Chansey's SpDef was boosted through Flower Gift.
I intend to test this further, but I'm not sure if I'm interpreting the description right. Is assume that "a boost" refers to the actual stat number, and not the base stat correct?
EDIT: Also, a 29 Speed Chansey tied in speed with a Meditite I was battling in a double battle (opponent's). Flower Gift was not in effect. During the course of another battle, the same Chansey, only this time with 28 Speed, never outran the Meditite. Flower Gift was in effect in this battle. 13 attacks were performed by Chansey during the sunlight, and not one of them struck before Meditite's attacks. It is possible that they were tied in speed, but the chances of Chansey not striking first during the 13 turns is, I believe, 1/8192.
I'm confused... Cherrim should do 72-86 damage to Starmie using Magical Leaf, not 19-22. That said, it is odd that the Starmie was only hit for 50 on the third test.
Similarly, by my calculations it should hit Chansey for 25-30, which makes those 18s and 19s odd.
Are you sure that you haven't made any mistakes? Perhaps Starmie used a Calm Mind at the start, or something? If it did, then things work out neatly - Starmie gets hit for 50-60 damage, which matches the range. Similarly, one Calm Mind from Chansey brings it right into the range, with 17-21 damage. The same effect could be had if something is dropping Cherrim's SpA one stage.
Or Cherrim's ability could raise the partners SpDef and not SpAtk like first thought.
This would be consistent with Puniverse's earlier findings, which have showed that it raises Attack and SpDef.
Does it also raise Cherrim's SpDef and not SpAtt? Otherwise, the boost to Cherrim's SpAtt would balance the boost to its partner's SpDef, and the numbers would still work out too high.
Flower Gift rises Attack and Special Defense by 1.5x. I'm fairly certain of this, I just haven't had a chance to get some hard numbers.
Lvl 25 59 SpA Cherrim Magical Leaf on Lvl 14 31 SpD/51 HP Starmie.
No flower Gift should yield 19 - 22 damage.
Test 1: 51 (OHKO)
Test 2: 51 (OHKO)
Test 3: 50
Unless I'm missing something, Cherrim's SpA has to be at least ~ 137 - 166, which is a ~2.3x - 2.8x boost. This is ignoring a possible SpDef boost via Flower Gift.
You screwed up the damage calculation. Assuming no boosts, the damage range is 72-86. Assuming a 1.5x SpDef boost, its 50-60. You data falls in the range.
Lvl 25 59 SpA Cherrim Magical Leaf on Lvl 17 45 SpD/123 HP Chansey.
No Flower Gift should yield 13 - 16 damage.
Test 1: 19
Test 2: 18
Test 3: 18
Test 4: 18
Test 5: 19
Magical Leaf would deal more damage with the 137 - 166 SpA, at least 29 -34, which indicates that Chansey's SpDef was boosted through Flower Gift.
Damage range without SpDef boost is 25-30. With the boost 16-21. Your data falls in that range.
Lvl 25 59 SpA Cherrim Magical Leaf on Lvl 14 31 SpD/51 HP Starmie.
No flower Gift should yield 19 - 22 damage.
Test 1: 51 (OHKO)
Test 2: 51 (OHKO)
Test 3: 50
Unless I'm missing something, Cherrim's SpA has to be at least ~ 137 - 166, which is a ~2.3x - 2.8x boost. This is ignoring a possible SpDef boost via Flower Gift.
You screwed up the damage calculation. Assuming no boosts, the damage range is 72-86. Assuming a 1.5x SpDef boost, its 50-60. You data falls in the range.
Lvl 25 59 SpA Cherrim Magical Leaf on Lvl 17 45 SpD/123 HP Chansey.
No Flower Gift should yield 13 - 16 damage.
Test 1: 19
Test 2: 18
Test 3: 18
Test 4: 18
Test 5: 19
Magical Leaf would deal more damage with the 137 - 166 SpA, at least 29 -34, which indicates that Chansey's SpDef was boosted through Flower Gift.
Damage range without SpDef boost is 25-30. With the boost 16-21. Your data falls in that range.
The supereffectiveness multipliers are done last, so that's why the damage is always a multiple of 4.
Also, the Critical Hit multiplier is not done last. If you take a look at this thread, the CH multiplier is done just after the +2. That means that the critical hit damage must also be a multiple of 4 itself. In fact, 164 = 41 x 4.
The range of damage is the one I told you before: the damage done must be one of ( 68, 72, 76, 80, 84 ) or one of ( 72, 76, 80, 84, 88 ). The difference depends on where the x1.5 for the Technician boost is situated.
As an aside, it's interesting that recently we've had a lot of quashing of research claims, and some of you might think that we researchers are doing a bad job. Some of you might say "hey, these researchers suck, since they first say that HP doesn't get a Technician boost, and then they say it gets a boost" or "they suck since they first say that Solid Rock reduces damage by 1/3 and now they say that it's by 1/4" or whatever. I think that people here warrant an explanation for this. The reality is that the damage formula was not yet fully known at the time of the preliminary tests. Now that the damage formula is almost complete, we can get much more accurate results. So don't blame us on these results, and bear with us.
Life Orb - is the actual (s)atk stat or the damage boosted by .3?
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