NFE Pokemon in UU

Status
Not open for further replies.
look at the pokes

look if the NFE forms serve teh same roll as their final forms do...if not, let them in, if htey do, ban them
 
How about we include all the pokes that got new evolutions later, like Tangela, Electabuzz, and Magmar. Misdreavus and Murkrow too. They still belong even though later on the line they evolve.
 
Depends on whether or not they got improvements this gen. Why the HELL would you keep Gligar in on Crawdaunt? It is NOT a physical wall, it is an SD sweeper. Any "UU" experience on Shoddy so far seems worthless, because stuff like Specs Typhlosion has been running wild there. I'm telling you, if Gligar got an SD up in ADV, there wasn't much you could do to stop it without STAB Surf/Ice Beam.

Granted that Azumarill/Crawdaunt/Kingler will be big threats to it, but it will just happily switch out to something like Electabuzz, or the new and improved Manectric on the turn they come in, once your opponent has seen them. You wouldn't keep them in on that would you?
 
Depends on whether or not they got improvements this gen. Why the HELL would you keep Gligar in on Crawdaunt? It is NOT a physical wall, it is an SD sweeper. Any "UU" experience on Shoddy so far seems worthless, because stuff like Specs Typhlosion has been running wild there. I'm telling you, if Gligar got an SD up in ADV, there wasn't much you could do to stop it without STAB Surf/Ice Beam.

Granted that Azumarill/Crawdaunt/Kingler will be big threats to it, but it will just happily switch out to something like Electabuzz, or the new and improved Manectric on the turn they come in, once your opponent has seen them. You wouldn't keep them in on that would you?

LOL, no, I'm jsut sayin it isnt comparble to Gligar in OU. Someone was saying how "oh, its so tough" and "it'll pwn you with EQ and stone edge" so I gave an example of what a gligar would have to try and wall if it hopes to live up to Gliscor standards.

Oh, and 273 attack is not enough to sweep with. Even Drapion (which is still too low) gets better than that.
 
How about we include all the pokes that got new evolutions later, like Tangela, Electabuzz, and Magmar. Misdreavus and Murkrow too. They still belong even though later on the line they evolve.
YOU CANNOT put a pokemon in UU just because they were UU last gen.

You HAVE to sort them just like AN OTHER POKEMON. Based on stats, moves, abilitys, typing, etc.

geez.
 
It gets SD and Roost, with which it has 546 attack, EQ immunity,LIFE ORB, EQ and Stone Edge to sweep with. It will really put a dent in stuff. It can also pass Rock Polish. Do you really want to have to deal with shit like Rock Polished CB Azumarill?
 
YOU CANNOT put a pokemon in UU just because they were UU last gen.

You HAVE to sort them just like AN OTHER POKEMON. Based on stats, moves, abilitys, typing, etc.

geez.

Agreed! This thread is just about whether or not we should ban them or tier them/whether we should tier some and ban others.

Even if we "allow" all pokes, we still have to tier them all! PITA . . . -_-
 
so why not in the cases of NFE pokemons with lower stats than the fully evolved form using the sort of game play.. Eg Kadabra and Haunter, why dont people just use gengar or alakazam without perfect 31 IVs and set a limit to maybe 300 EVs and test them out in UU or standards and see where they really fit. then wouldnt it be easier to see where their NFE forms go?
 
I think that NFEs should be allowed in UU unless they are considered broken (chansey, rhydon, wynaut). IMO, after the main tier list is done, someone should take the full list of NFEs, banish all the obviously weak ones and categorize the remaining 20 or so into UU or BL.
 
It gets SD and Roost, with which it has 546 attack, EQ immunity,LIFE ORB, EQ and Stone Edge to sweep with. It will really put a dent in stuff. It can also pass Rock Polish. Do you really want to have to deal with shit like Rock Polished CB Azumarill?

Azumarril isnt a problem. I've faced many of em. Besides, if your team has a hazer, you can just roar/whirlwind as soon as Gligar comes out. 273 attack is simply not enough. It's below average even for UU.

Think of all the stuff with more attack than that. They can SD too, but they don't dominate the game, do they? Gligar was UU all this time for a reason. it has some nice stats, but overall, it's mediocre.

EDIT: Azumarril and Gligar are even more mediocre than I thought! I thought Azumarril had at least 240 attack! Wow, these things suck.
 
Your best bet imo for deciding if something unevolved should be allowed in UU or not is following the following steps. We'll take Gligar as an example.

1) Completely ignore that it has an evolution. If Pokemon X has amazing stats, then evolves into Pokemon Y with lesser stats, which of the ones is more likely to be UU? I'd say Y. If Pokemon A has the same stats as Pokemon B and yet one evolves into the other, how different are they when actually tiering things? Whether they evolve and what they evolve in does not matter when you are already judging unevolved Pokemon already.

So we will look at Gligar, pretending Gamefreak wasn't kind enough to show his potential in the form of Gliscor. Now, we observe what we have...

2) Gligar was an UU Pokemon last generation. This does not serve as a direct argument for Gligar's tiering in DP due to all the drastic changes that have been done, and not just to Gligar but due to the whole UU border being changed around, mechanical changes and all, we can't really use Advance UU as an argument but it can be a starting point for estimating its power a bit.

3) Now, we look at Gligar's statistics. This is where you start spouting advantages and disadvantages. Gligar mostly has the former. Typing? Ground/Flying. Most notable things? 4x Ice weakness, resistance to Fighting while maintaining neutralty to Rock and being immune to Electric and Ground. Not weak to Stealth Rock and immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes.

Stat-wise, Gligar has fairly average if not bad stats across the board except for the 105 Def...but overall workable enough, as expected from something that was used a lot in UU in Advance. 65/75/105/35/65/85 is not something you can simply say "wow way too fucking powerful" or "too goddamn sucky to make an impact" of, so we look a bit further.

Move-wise, Gligar has it covered. STABed Earthquake, arguably one of the best offensive aspects any Pokemon could muster. STAB Aerial Ace as well, for all it's worth. Then we have Swords Dance and elemental fangs, Night Slash, X-Scissor, Stone Edge and U-Turn to about round out Gligar's offensive movepool. Defensively, Gligar can tank with Roost, set up Stealth Rock, use Knock Off well and Baton Pass Swords Dances and Rock Carts. Taunt is there, too.

Now start comparing Gligar to how we can currently sketch the UU metagame. First off, if it sweeps about anything you can shake your finger at, you can bring up a case for not allowing it. But we have access to a lot of Waters that shut down Gligar pretty easily without going too far out of their usual ways - Poliwrath, Quagsire and Gastrodon come to mind. Of course, Gligar's main role was usually defensive.

Then you get to the most difficult part: is Gligar walling enough enemies, like Chansey does, to really make a strong case for banning it? It was always there to beat the hell out of Fighters and Ground types of all kinds...back in Advance you even had things like (the back then elemental) Ice Punch Muk/Primeape and Ice Beam Nidoking just for Gligar, which makes you resort to a claim of overcentralization fairly quickly. Now that Ice Punch is physical this is even a shorter step away, though Gligar can also overcome these moves a bit by the use of Roost. Plus it no longer sits around resorting to Toxic to bail out Waters - it can use Knock Off and Stealth Rock, which make it useful even if your opponent has an awesome counter like Rest/Sleep Talk Quagsire/Ice Beam Quagsire. It can Baton Pass, and fairly dangerous things too - Swords Dance and Rock Cart are nothing to be scoffed at.

I'd say Gligar being too good for UU in DP isn't such a far stretch. It pretty much made itself useless in Adv UU because even things with subpar Special Attack took up Ice moves for him. You've got to ask yourself if Gligar is having a positive or a negative influence on the UU metagame.

Generally speaking I am against the use of pre-evo's in UU out of principle. However, when debating issues I usually try to back that up a little more, and not just resort to "hey that defeats the purpose of playing UU". That means I should have to prove Gligar is overcentralizing UU, and so should you.

Personally, I think Gligar promotes a rather defensive metagame due to never dying with Roost, and is also threatening in a way Celebi was in Adv OU: even if you got something that stops his decent attacking assaults and you don't mind the utility he gives (in Celebi's case Heal Bell/Leech Seed, in Gligar's case Stealth Rock/Knock Off), there's always the chance he uses your switch to set up and Baton Pass away. And for Baton Passers, the closest thing you have to a counter is a phazer.
 
Azumarril isnt a problem. I've faced many of em. Besides, if your team has a hazer, you can just roar/whirlwind as soon as Gligar comes out. 273 attack is simply not enough. It's below average even for UU.

Think of all the stuff with more attack than that. They can SD too, but they don't dominate the game, do they? Gligar was UU all this time for a reason. it has some nice stats, but overall, it's mediocre.

EDIT: Azumarril and Gligar are even more mediocre than I thought! I thought Azumarril had at least 240 attack! Wow, these things suck.

How about you do some research before you shoot your mouth off?

You do know what Huge Power does right? It DOUBLES your attack. That means that it has 436 attack with Huge Power. Now add in fucking CB. Now admit you were wrong and move on.

And as for Gligar, read Mekkah's post. Gligar is a Pokemon that will tank like hell with Roost and if you switch in a Water type or an Ice attacker into a BP version after it has used Agility, you're facing some strong sweeper with double its usual speed. And look above to see whatI said about Azumarill. It has 654 attack. 654. CBHera can't get that much. I'm not saying that its better than Hera, but it has huge attack.
 
I don't think gligar would overpower the UU metagame (which really doesn't exist.)

As far as walls in UU, take a look at Noctowl.

100/50/50/76/96/70
Weaknesses - Rock, Ice, Electric
Resistances - Grass, Rock, Immune to ground and ghost

If you do the calculations, Noctowl is easily bulky enough to take a non-STAB thunderbolt and icebeam and turn it into a 3HKO. Even a STAB thunderbolt from a modest raichu is a 3HKO after leftovers if you make him bulky enough.

That being said, he makes a fairly durable UU wall, with roost, reflect, hypnosis is pretty notable, agility, and whirlwind.

With a STAB air-slash, and STAB normal type moves, he can do some damage. Can he be walled? Not precisely, he can take a bulky steel type thrown at him, put it to sleep, set up a reflect, and use faint attack (in the same way blissey uses seismic toss)2-3 times and kill it.

And he can roost too. So he's a very powerful pokemon but he's rarely seen. Even though he has insomnia, and can switch into alot of attacks.

I know this doesn't have a whole to to do with NFE's, but considering there are alot of pokemon like this in UU, gligar isn't an invincible wall, he's walled fairly easily, and he can be killed with a reliable special attacker. There are way better walls in UU, such as hypno and bulky grasses.
 
Noctowl has 50 base Attack....

Gligar has 75 base Attack, Swords Dance, and STAB EQ, better Defense, and BP along with Agility. You're comparing a wall and a tank here.
 
As far as walls in UU, take a look at Noctowl.

100/50/50/76/96/70
Weaknesses - Rock, Ice, Electric
Resistances - Grass, Bug, Immune to ground and ghost

If you do the calculations, Noctowl is easily bulky enough to take a non-STAB thunderbolt and icebeam and turn it into a 3HKO. Even a STAB thunderbolt from a modest raichu is a 3HKO after leftovers if you make him bulky enough.

That being said, he makes a fairly durable UU wall, with roost, reflect, hypnosis is pretty notable, agility, and whirlwind.

With a STAB air-slash, and STAB normal type moves, he can do some damage. Can he be walled? Not precisely, he can take a bulky steel type thrown at him, put it to sleep, set up a reflect, and use Night Shade (in the same way blissey uses seismic toss)2-3 times and kill it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is what you meant to say. Faint Attack doesn't do shit to Steels.

Anyways, I don't see how you can compare Noctowl with Gligar in terms of offensive threat. It has no way to boost its Special Attack and the special movepool is rather limited compared to Gligar's physical arsenal.

It works decently as a general special wall (although it must watch out for Stealth Rock when repeatedly switching in) and all-round utility Pokemon in UU, but that's all. It certainly won't be sweeping teams.
 
OK, I'll make this perfectly clear:

SPECIAL WALLS CANNOT BE WEAK TO BOLTBEAM

Noctowl isn't a special wall, it's a utility, and not that great of one considering all it gets is Whirlwind, Reflect, Hypnosis, Toxic, and Featherdance. Its too bad because with Air Slash, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Hidden Power, and Silver Wind it could have done well with Calm Mind (which would also make it halfway decent if it could CM before Manectric came in).

Also Mekkah, is Gligar's defensive role new? All the Gligars I faced in scores of UU battles in ADV were of the SD Sweeping variety.

I'm actually more concerned with the fact Gligar can now BP Rock Polish. Half of the things in UU would kill for a +2 speed boost. Octillery, Exploud, Camerupt, Ursaring, Hariyama, Crawdaunt, Luxray, Bulky-Khan, SD Feraligatr, Nidoking...

Basically Gligar is now a mini-Scizor. Not only can it set up boosts, it can kill you with them itself.
 
OK, I'll make this perfectly clear:

SPECIAL WALLS CANNOT BE WEAK TO BOLTBEAM
Usually yes.

But Noctowl lols at even Starmie Boltbeams with Roost and the fact doing even 50% to it is a bitch.

However Noctowls title isn't a special wall as said, but its not utility either Noctowl is more ultimate status sponge.

is Gligar's defensive role new?
Although not directed at me. Yes its brand new.

Roost was not around back then therefore it had no chance of attempting that.
 
How about you do some research before you shoot your mouth off?

You do know what Huge Power does right? It DOUBLES your attack. That means that it has 436 attack with Huge Power. Now add in fucking CB. Now admit you were wrong and move on.

And as for Gligar, read Mekkah's post. Gligar is a Pokemon that will tank like hell with Roost and if you switch in a Water type or an Ice attacker into a BP version after it has used Agility, you're facing some strong sweeper with double its usual speed. And look above to see whatI said about Azumarill. It has 654 attack. 654. CBHera can't get that much. I'm not saying that its better than Hera, but it has huge attack.

DUH, I knew that. Huge power doubles its attack. So what? I thought Azumarril was way better DEFENSIVELY than it is, so I thought it could get away with more. But no matter how much attack something has, it's not gonna sweep with Aqua Jet. And you people must think slapping a choice band on anything makes it dangerous. Just switch in a Water type and laugh at Azumarril, as it either switches or lets you set up.

As for Gligar, didn't you guys just finish saying it can SWEEP!? Not really. As a tank, gligar is good, and as a BPasser, but it's not game breaking. Anything can baton pass and be worth something. I jsut don't think Gligar is BL just becuase of Roost. Stone edge is only a bit better than Rock SLide was too. Oh, and the list of UU water types is huge, and any one of em learns Ice moves.

You don't need to swear at me if you think you're right, y'know. I do my research too.
 
Usually yes.

But Noctowl lols at even Starmie Boltbeams with Roost and the fact doing even 50% to it is a bitch.

However Noctowls title isn't a special wall as said, but its not utility either Noctowl is more ultimate status sponge.


Although not directed at me. Yes its brand new.

Roost was not around back then therefore it had no chance of attempting that.


Noctowl LOLs it it wants to do 252 HP/SDef +SDef, with just Max HP and +SDef Starmie unboosted Max SA Boltbeams deal 41-48% damage, but then Noctowl has the small problem of dealing damage. To anything. SpecsStar slaughters it as does LO.

Although I must say, Roost is a much welcome addition. Too bad it shares it with all the other birds.

Moreover, Noctowl tends not to lure unSTABBed special attacks. Its setup bait for anything once its put something to Sleep, and it takes physical hits like a wet noodle. Put in perspective: Honchkrow has better physical defense than Noctowl (granted only by 4 points).
 
As somebody who played an awful lot of UU vs. OU in advance: Chansey is definitely fine in UU. Blissey would be fine too, frankly, but that's not important. There is a big difference between a wall with great stats in UU and a sweeper with great stats in UU. Blissey does the exact same thing in UU as she does in OU: Wall special attackers, and run against physical attackers. Chansey would be even easier to deal with. Hypno takes a special hit almost as well as she can, and can take a physical hits too.

Edit: On second thought, Chansey would pretty much be an auto-include on competitive UU teams. Aromatherapy and its friends are hard to come by in UU, and should remain that way.

NFEs should be allowed in on a case by case basis. There are so few of them that are of appropriate power level and are interesting enough to warrant inclusion that there's no reason to risk screwing up a balanced environment.
 
As somebody who played an awful lot of UU vs. OU in advance: Chansey is definitely fine in UU. Blissey would be fine too, frankly, but that's not important. There is a big difference between a wall with great stats in UU and a sweeper with great stats in UU. Blissey does the exact same thing in UU as she does in OU: Wall special attackers, and run against physical attackers. Chansey would be even easier to deal with. Hypno takes a special hit almost as well as she can, and can take a physical hits too.

Edit: On second thought, Chansey would pretty much be an auto-include on competitive UU teams. Aromatherapy and its friends are hard to come by in UU, and should remain that way.

NFEs should be allowed in on a case by case basis. There are so few of them that are of appropriate power level and are interesting enough to warrant inclusion that there's no reason to risk screwing up a balanced environment.

Please do inform us of how we stop Chansey from Seismic Tossing us to hell once our physical sweeper has been taken out.

The only thing stopping Chansey from being OU is the existence of Blissey. Otherwise, its Ice Beam is sufficient to OHKO Gligar, It can cripple most sweepers with Thunder Wave, and it still has room for Softboiled.

Do tell me how to stop:

Chansey @ Leftovers
252 Def/252 SA/4 HP
Bold

Natural Cure

~ Seismic Toss
~ Ice Beam
~ Thunder Wave/Aromatherapy
~ Softboiled

Ported directly from RSE to DP for your pleasure. Wish Hypno? Pray it doesn't get parahaxed or freeze haxed, as ST will finish it. Anything that doesn't have a 50% recovery move or Rest will inevitable succumb to Chansey. Anything it can't kill it will cripple with Thunder Wave, with IBeam for those pesky Ground types.

For someone who claims to have played a lot of OU, you must not have faced many good Blissey players. Blissey doesn't run from every physical attackers, usually just those with STAB fighting moves or CB Quakes and the like.

Sorry man, I'm not buying Chansey in UU. Once you take out the fighting moves, Blissey moves in for the wall.
 
Yes because non stab Ice beam from base 35 Sp. A. is going to murderise everything, neutral natured Chansey needs 224 EV's in special attack to guarantee an OHKO on 0 hp/sp.d neutral Gligar, who is 4x weak. Gligars running those EV's carry swords dance, if Chansey switches in on one it is screwed.

Your "reasoning" seems to be based on alot of nothing. Chansey plays worse in UU than Blissey does in OU, period. Pretty silly to make the claims you did and try to discredit the above poster without doing the research yourself.
 
Please do inform us of how we stop Chansey from Seismic Tossing us to hell once our physical sweeper has been taken out.

The only thing stopping Chansey from being OU is the existence of Blissey. Otherwise, its Ice Beam is sufficient to OHKO Gligar, It can cripple most sweepers with Thunder Wave, and it still has room for Softboiled.

Do tell me how to stop:

Chansey @ Leftovers
252 Def/252 SA/4 HP
Bold

Natural Cure

~ Seismic Toss
~ Ice Beam
~ Thunder Wave/Aromatherapy
~ Softboiled

Ported directly from RSE to DP for your pleasure. Wish Hypno? Pray it doesn't get parahaxed or freeze haxed, as ST will finish it. Anything that doesn't have a 50% recovery move or Rest will inevitable succumb to Chansey. Anything it can't kill it will cripple with Thunder Wave, with IBeam for those pesky Ground types.

For someone who claims to have played a lot of OU, you must not have faced many good Blissey players. Blissey doesn't run from every physical attackers, usually just those with STAB fighting moves or CB Quakes and the like.

Sorry man, I'm not buying Chansey in UU. Once you take out the fighting moves, Blissey moves in for the wall.

Well, maybe its the specific set and all... but sub/pass Driftblim comes in safely immune to seismic toss, subs up to block T-Wave, boosts the defenses with Stockpile, and then baton-passes to something dangerous. At very least, it will force you to start taking action before Driftblim passes a few stockpiles to a random pokemon.

However, I just ran a Defense tier calculation... and Chansey is not that much worse than Blissey. Blissey will still be able to take repeated Draco Meteors from a Specsmence, and it will still wall the hell out of everyone. 252/252 Chansey scores a Defense tier similar to 0/0 Heatran, so any fighting attack Heatran can survive Chansey will as well, except Chansey will recover with softboiled.

Hell, Chansey still takes Sp. Attacks better than Regice does, and with the 252/252 bold spread, it takes physical attacks better as well. 252/252 Regice beats Chansey's Sp. Def only slightly, but Chansey has immunity to ghost and is neutral to everything, while Regice is weak to everything >_>

I'd say Chansey is still BL material.
 
Well, maybe its the specific set and all... but sub/pass Driftblim comes in safely immune to seismic toss, subs up to block T-Wave, boosts the defenses with Stockpile, and then baton-passes to something dangerous. At very least, it will force you to start taking action before Driftblim passes a few stockpiles to a random pokemon.

However, I just ran a Defense tier calculation... and Chansey is not that much worse than Blissey. Blissey will still be able to take repeated Draco Meteors from a Specsmence, and it will still wall the hell out of everyone. 252/252 Chansey scores a Defense tier similar to 0/0 Heatran, so any fighting attack Heatran can survive Chansey will as well, except Chansey will recover with softboiled.

Hell, Chansey still takes Sp. Attacks better than Regice does, and with the 252/252 bold spread, it takes physical attacks better as well. 252/252 Regice beats Chansey's Sp. Def only slightly, but Chansey has immunity to ghost and is neutral to everything, while Regice is weak to everything >_>

I'd say Chansey is still BL material.

I disagree, a pokemon that takes a minimum of 2 turns to KO even 4x weak pokemon, and is easily OHKO'd by many in the tier, is not too powerful for it.

Again, your research is flawed as the only thing you took into consideration at all is Chanseys ability to wall special attackers. It can't even take unstabbed close combats, and the only way it can "recover it off" to anything, is if it's not a 2hko, or it will be killed within a few turns.

You did not bother for one second to do any sort of calculations for Chansey offensively, or defensively against physical attackers.

Yes, it is capable of possibly functioning as a special wall in OU (Once again, not relevant). But that is all it can do. In UU it is even more easily dealt with (This is key) than Blissey is in OU. Are you honestly trying to say Chansey would be comparable to allowing Regice or Blissey in UU? Think about it.

Coming into a thread and saying "I think Chansey should be BL because this is how it takes special attacks" .... You can do better than that.
 
I'd allow all Pokemon to be legal. It's the simplest solution. Things like Chimchar will probably be NU, while things like Electabuzz will probably be UU. Things like Scyther might even be BL. Why not just allow everything and then see in which tier each end up?

Agreed 100%

This seems like the best way to build a tier list based on logic, not on inertia or prejudices. Build the tier list the way they were defined. Rather than "ah, Chansey and Kadabra are NFEs - they're banned from BL along with all other NFEs because of my irrational fear of Pupitar and Metang" how about "ah, Chansey and Kadabra are too strong for UU - they're BL, but you can use Metang, Bronzor, and Chimchar if you really want to."
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top