DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Well...yeah. In that particular battle, your tests would have been inconclusive. As DT said earlier, Leafeon is a team player, so if the team isn't built with him in mind, he won't be able to perform. That explains why he has, in your own words, failed to shine.

I'm not saying all your tests are so debatable.
 
Lee said:
Well...yeah. In that particular battle, your tests would have been inconclusive. ... That explains why he has, in your own words, failed to shine.
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Which is why I discounted our battle. Since then I've built a more Leafeon friendly team, unfortunately I only managed to get two UU battles in before my Shoddy crashed, its only just come back on.


My comment to you, in that match regarding him failing to shine, was in the context of ladder matches, which as you know are dominated by OU heavy stall teams. At that time no one was on playing UU so I'd not had the opportunity to test him in that environment.
 
Yeah, fair point. I tend to disregard whether ot not I'm playing Ladder matches. It's just a quick way to get battles as far as I'm concerned. I always play UU though, so feel free to challenge me anytime I'm on and we can do more testing. :)

Although I think that my testing has told me that CBHitmonlee is too much for UU. Would you agree?
 
SO, which NFEs are allowed in UU? I ahd a Tangela, and Slickee didn't like that... I won by a slim margin, and he musta thought it was because I ahd Tangela.

Tangela has a lot of differences... it doesnt get power whip, it's attack is very low, and it's faster than Tangrowth. Also, we kinda need walls in UU. Am I wrong for using it?
 
skiddle said:
SO, which NFEs are allowed in UU? I ahd a Tangela, and Slickee didn't like that... I won by a slim margin, and he musta thought it was because I ahd Tangela.

Tangela has a lot of differences... it doesnt get power whip, it's attack is very low, and it's faster than Tangrowth. Also, we kinda need walls in UU. Am I wrong for using it?
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lol first off, its childish of you to bring it up like that.

Second of all... well, I dont have one. :/
 
Well, like Dragontamer mentioned, the generally acceptable NFE pokemon are:
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu

Personally, I wouldn't get annoyed for using Tangela, as the whole NFE issue really hasn't been decided yet anyways. Nor have the tiers of UU/BL, for that matter.

Anyways, about the pokemon we're discussing...

Leafeon: compared to Scyther, it's a much better Baton Passer (lower speed, but much better defense, better typing, and better support moves like Roar/Grasswhistle/Wish), but poses less of a sweeping threat...it deserves some thought since it's not all that difficult to kill, but I'm leaning towards BL. Could use testing, though.

Hitmonlee: Not quite sure. If Claydol comes down, it's most likely safe (Jolly CB Blaze kick does 28.70% - 33.64% to a 252/252 Bold Claydol, unless I miscalculated), and it's pretty fragile too.

Swellow: I already mentioned it, but it's walled to hell and back by Rock/Steel types and is beaten up badly by SR/any priority attack considering it's SR weak and has just plain awful 60/60/50 defenses, not to mention the health it'll be losing from Burn. Fine for UU IMO.

Empoleon: Eh...it can beat up most special walls pretty badly (max/max Calm Grumpig takes 46.43% - 54.67% from LO Surf while Hypno takes 43.58% - 51.34%). Lanturn (resists Surf/Ice Beam and takes very little from Grass Knot IIRC, can hit back with T-bolt), Mantine (huge sp def, resists surf, takes little from Grass Knot, though it needs HP Electric to threaten Empoleon), and Poliwrath (Can't remember how much he takes from grass knot, but if it's not much he could work) could be considered counters. Actually, does anyone have that Grass Knot damage table? I forgot where to find it >_>
 
Umm, Cresselia having truckloads more HP than Uxie is not a further point in favour of Cresselia?
 
Leafeon has a nice movepool, decent stats, Earthquake resistance, and not to mention, Whishcash and Quagsire scarer. Even funner, less SR weak than Scyther. I'll run some damage calculations with some common UUs sometime.
 
I'm pretty sure I already mentioned the HP ._.

Lanturn (resists Surf/Ice Beam and takes very little from Grass Knot IIRC, can hit back with T-bolt),
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Off the top of my head Grass Knot is only worth 60 power on Lanturn and most tend to be special sponges making it pretty neglectable.
 
Okay, just to get something out of the way. The list that I'm using is Forsety's list that was found like 20 pages back. I just worked off of his update so it isn't "my" list :-p

That said, looks like we have some new reccomendations for UU/Testing. So time for an update. I'll keep Leafeon on discussion, although it seems like we're leaning to UU/Testing right now.


Current Discussion
Empoleon
Leafeon

BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Jumpluff

UU's to be tested.
 -Walrein
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne
-Lapras
-Ninetales
-Poliwrath
-Hitmonlee

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
Note: Weak recommendations are placed for historical purposes, so that we don't repeat say, the Miltank or Houndoom debate.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Steelix (High)
-Drapion (High)
-Swellow (High)
-Shedinja (Medium - high)
-Regigigas (Weak)
-Houndoom (Very Weak)
-Miltank (Very Weak)
-Flygon (Very Weak)

Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL)
Snover
Hippopatas
 
Todays testing ...

UU - none, nobodys playing.

I have however been using both Leafeon and Lapras in ladder matches, and as much as I love Leafeon it is nowhere near as threatening as Lapras.
 
Jaxi said:
Swellow is almost unstoppable after your physical wall is dead.
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As is just about every other heavy hitter in UU. CB Hitmonlee, Pinsir, Scyther and so forth have been brought up already.

Swellow has less type coverage and is 100% countered by any rock/steel in UU. With HP Fighting as a special attack now, Swellow has difficulty even 3-hit KOing Probopass with HP Fighting.
 
Um, in the other thread, on page 8 (the last page IIRC) of "NFEs in UU" Tangela was one of the acceptable pokes. Add it, please.
 
So we're leaving Kangaskhan as UU then? BTW, Tangela doesn't really seem like it'll unbalance UU, and having that extra speed makes it different from Tangrowth.
 
Unless people start sweeping with Kanga and changing our minds, she's staying UU.

Tangela is the same physical wall and seeder/powder that it's always been. I was fairly convinced that it was argued against in the NFE thread though since it's essentially the same as Tangrowth with less attacking options.
 
Pneuma said:
Unless people start sweeping with Kanga and changing our minds, she's staying UU.

Tangela is the same physical wall and seeder/powder that it's always been. I was fairly convinced that it was argued against in the NFE thread though since it's essentially the same as Tangrowth with less attacking options.
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Well this is the most recent list that appeared in the other thread:

Unique Item that cannot be used by the evolved form:
Clamperl
Pikachu

Secondary STAB changes
Only counts dual-typed NFE pokemon, so replacing one type with another
Nincada (Ground vs. Flying/Ghost)
Onix (Ground vs. Steel)
Pupitar (Ground vs. Dark)
Scyther (Flying vs. Steel)
Surskit (Bug vs. Flying)

Has at least one Stat greater than it's evolved form
Anorith (Speed)
Electabuzz (Speed)
Magmar (Speed)
Magneton (Speed)
Murkrow (Speed)
Onix (Speed)
Poliwhirl (Speed)
Porygon2 (Def/SDef)
Remoraid (Speed)
Scyther (Speed)
Shelgon (Def)
Surskit (Speed)
Tangela (Speed)
Trapinch (Attack greater than Vibrava)
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As you can see, as far as newly evolved pokes go, Magneton, Murkrow and Tangela are allowed for their speed advantage, but Gligar isn't because it has nothing to distinguish it from Gliscor. This was posted weeks ago and there has been no strong argument against it since, so I can only assume this is the complete list of accepted NFEs. If you have any objections to it, by all means say so in that thread (it is on page 5).

EDIT: No Vigoroth though. That's a bit strange.
 
I'd rather not bring it back up since there was no consensus.
That list should be appended with different (useful) ability too though. Vigoroth's Vital Spirit, Yanma's Compoundeyes, Dragonair Shed Skin (and different type), others.
 
Yanma's Compoundeyes
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That's a fine line...I mean, would we assume that Speed Boost Yanma is illegal? Of course not, because it's all that would be used. It's pointless to say that, especially since he is still horribly inferior to it's evolution.

It's akin to letting in Caterpie because he has Shield Dust, whereas Butterfree has CompoundEyes.

I'm just against Yanma in general, because it will be used just like a UU Yanmega which would fuel the OU-lite slurs.
 
Yanma with CEyes is pretty useful with Hypnosis, Toxic, or Screech and 95 speed. Not a whole lot outruns him in UU, and given double-status or flawless screeching (with the Reversal set of course) he can still be playable. UNLIKE Caterpie.
 
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