What is uber?

obi

obi

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With all the discussion about which Pokemon should be unbanned, I decided I should take a crack at framing the debate how I feel it ought to be discussed.

The question shouldn't be "Is this Pokemon OK to unban?", because that presumes it's uber. Rather, the question should be "Which Pokemon are uber?". This sounds both obvious and identical to the first question, but the way you frame the question has a huge impact.

When I say I feel everything should be tested, people often respond with "Oh, what about Mewtwo / Rayquaza / Deoxys-A / Geodude?". My answer to that is still yes. Things often play out differently in theory than in reality. However, that doesn't mean we still need to test it. There's this tier called the uber tier. It has all the Pokemon allowed in it. This can be seen as testing Pokemon.

The following is a list of the Pokemon I feel are necessarily uber.

Rayquaza
Deoxys-A
Deoxys-M (for Mediocre, it's the weaker version of Deoxys-A, sometimes just called Deoxys)
Latios
Latias
Groudon
Mewtwo

If you'll notice, most of the Pokemon here are offensive. I feel it's best to have the first round of bans offensive (because they are more obviously unbalanced). However, with such heavy-hitters gone, the following Pokemon are too difficult to take down.

Giratina

That leaves the following Pokemon that are currently marked as uber:

Manaphy
Mew
Ho-oh
Palkia
Dialga
Darkrai
Deoxys-D
Kyogre
Wobbuffet
Lugia

Now, I have my suspicions that Lugia, Mew, and Palkia would also turn out to be uber for sure. However, I haven't found them to be too overpowering in the current uber environment.

The proper way to go about this is to decide on all the Pokemon that are necessarily uber, and allow the rest all at once. You cannot get an accurate depiction of how they will work any other way. If the ultimate game might include X, Y, and Z Pokemon, and you allow them one at a time, that's not an accurate portrayal of how they will actually work.
 
Well the main reason for manaphy is the free resting in rain I assume so what you've said about theory vs reality comes into question. If he were de-ubered along with kyogre I think they would tear apart the OU tier...alone however I think they are certainly counterable...blissey pretty much lol's at them.

I'd say dialgia belongs in uber for it's attacking strength but frankly I really have no idea how it would do in OU. Same for ho-oh really, CB'd STAB'd sacred fire is complete rape status. Same for darkrai really.

The only ones I PERSONALLY think would be worth testing are Deoxys-D and wobuffet.
 
dirtybirdy said:
Well the main reason for manaphy is the free resting in rain I assume
Click to expand...
You assume wrong. Please read the uncountable Manaphy topics from ages ago.
 
Yes, but if were to add things like Lugia, Wobbuffet, Kyogre (works both ways... sets up Manaphy, but also counters is), and the like, perhaps they could counteract Manaphy. In this scenario, prior OU tests are mostly irrelevant, because it's not just Manaphy we are talking about now.
 
How in the heck did Kyogre get landed on the second list. If Anything, Scarf Kyogre alone has the power to rip through teams that don't have a Water absorber.

I mean seriously, its ability is just as overpowered as Groudon's and it confers double STAB to boot. While Blissey could switch in on Max Water Spout, it can really only do that once unless it finds time to Softboil back to full health.
 
Well I reckon Kyogre would also be on the definantly uber list as it hits as hard as anything already on the definantly uber list and it has stuff like scarfed Water Spouts to make up for any power lost making up on its speed. Also, while I know your thoughts on the subject, Arceus should be included in this (also on the definantly uber list in my opinion), as we can play using it on Shoddy, it's not impossible to test so it would be easier to get it out of the way with all the rest.
 
Kyogre is way too good for OU. Overwhelming so. Blissey would start having to run special defense evs. Therefore, every team would carry dugtrio to take her out early on, then easily sweep with scarfogre.

Darkrai is essentially a beefed up Gengar minus resistances, but with blinding speed and the godly move Dark Void. Can also easily take on Blissey with Focus Punch. Too good.
 
With Palkia, Dialga, Wobbuffet, and Lugia possibly under consideration, as well as Blissey being on most every team already, combined with the possibility of trapping it with Dugtrio on a Thunder (I do this in ubers a lot), using Lapras, Poliwrath, Quagsire, and the like to take it depending on what moves it has and is using, as well as things Celebi and Abomasnow kicking around in OU already, Kyogre really isn't that big of a menace. It may prove to be uber after testing, yes, but I see a relatively large chance it would be acceptable.

Kyogre is way too good for OU. Overwhelming so. Blissey would start having to run special defense evs. Therefore, every team would carry dugtrio to take her out early on, then easily sweep with scarfogre.
Click to expand...

Blissey should already be running Special Defense.


Gengar resistances / immunities are huge.
 
I agree, and I think that all of the Pokemon remaining should first be analysed individually for OU play taking all other Ubers that may move down simultaneously into account whilst doing so. Once that is done I think there should be a tournament or something similar to help determine which should actually be unbanned.

edit: Although Kyogre and Dialga are very powerful and can break some of the current OU walls easily :(

edit2: And it isn't scarfOgre I am worried about, thats more of an uber thing.
 
Oh, and I'd like to ask that we keep the unfounded theorycraft to a minimum. If all you have to say is "Kyogre is definitely uber! It kills stuff!", then your post is mostly irrelevant and won't convince anyone of anything. My positions are backed by a lot of uber experience in both ADV and DP. That's not to say that this makes me automatically right, but rather, that I at least know my stuff, so I'm not going to overlook something any fool could see.
 
Where's Arceus? :P

Just my opinions on the rest:

Manaphy: Could theoretically fit in OU, but is obviously overpowering in Uber with Kyogre. Tail Glow+Surf is just wrong, and Base 100 stats means it's as bad as Jirachi or Celebi. Could lead to a rise in Rain Dance-oriented teams if in OU to abuse Hydration, but with T-tar/Hippo and Aboma running around, any other weather-based team is hard to set up anyways.

Mew: Should probably remain Uber. Infinately versatile movepool + access to Hypnosis, NP, and/or BP makes it pretty deadly.

Ho-oh: Despite the crap typing, it should remain in Uber since its stats are too much for OU imo.

Palkia: Water/Dragon, basically an upgraded version of Kingdra without Swift Swim. But yeah, good typing, high stats, and solid movepool means it can wreck havok just fine without Rain Dance support or anything.

Dialga: The "other" dragon. Not used as much, but Steel/Dragon is still ok despite EQ weakness. I can see it trying to work in OU, but I don't think it'd succeed much since its Base stats are still pretty high, and just cause it's weak to EQ doesn't mean it's not useable (ala Heatran).

Darkrai: Please keep in Uber. Very fast, and Dark Void is just devastating. Granted, it might not have as many resistances/immunities as its comparable counterpart Gengar, but still too deadly for the average OU team to handle imo.

Deoxys-D: I is teh WALL! Seriously, should still be in ubers; this thing is Shuckle with lower Defenses, but better type (debatable) and movepool.

Kyogre: ScarfOgre anyone? Can potentially tear apart any teams if they don't have a Water resist with Water Spout, especially in OU. Still kills most other things with Thunder and Ice Beam as well. Granted, it'd be nice to see some more Rain Dance teams, and Kyogre isn't the speediest thing with CScarf since it loses to other Scarfers with a higher base speed. But Kyogre just makes it too unbalanced in OU. Keep him in Uber.

Wobbuffet: Debatable. Shadow Tag is wrong, and that HP is just...sick for something that relies on Counter/Mirror Coat to slaughter anything. But then again, Wobby is dependent on you picking the right move, and with the rise of Mixed Sweepers, it could be harder to pick a correct move in OU. Maybe keep Wobby in Uber, but give his younger offspring Wynaut a chance in OU?

Lugia: Might have lost its premier wall status to Giratina, but still very potent. There is a reason why Cresselia (downgraded Lugia) is in OU and Lugia himself isn't.
 
Reasons why Kyogre specifically should be banned:

The Whale, the Legend, The Machine:

Scarfed Water Spout (or worse, Specs) can slaughter almost any lead. You really need to resist it or have Water Absorb, and that makes you Poliwrath, Politoed, Quagsire, Toxicroak, or Parasect. Have of those are taken out by Thunder, the other by Ice Beam.

If you really expect Abomasnow, you could always use Blizzard. 252 SA Timid Kyogre deals 37-43% to 252 HP Abomasnow with Blizzard. Choice Specs makes it a guarenteed 2HKO, Life Orb makes it a shaky 2HKO.

Consider that Kyogre also has Calm Mind and therefore doesn't neccessarily need Specs or LO, and you have something dangerous. Kyogre is awesomely powerful in it's own right, but that isn't even half of why it's Uber.

Drizzle: The booster of Champions:

Here's the shortlist of pokemon Drizzle helps out without the need of using a tank for Rain Dance + Wet Rock.

Gyarados
Kingdra
Floatzel
Omastar
Kabutops
Ludicolo
Huntail
Gorebyss
Toxicroak
Dewgong
Phione
Seaking (FUCK YEA!)
Parasect (FUCK YEA!)

An argument can also be made for Steel walls since it weakens the power of fire attacks against them, although they won't like boosted Surfs.

Remember Stalrein? Meet Stalicolo, Stalisect, Stalicroak.

Kyogre isn't just a killer pokemon that also has several rediculously powerful options at its disposal, it can also support your entire team by it's mere presense. It can even generate 101 HP subs and tell Blissey to take a hike as it CMs up, if the user wants such a set.
 
I assume this is a joke thread made in response to all the silly "unban this unban that" threads. But to answer your question, Kyogre is an uber because scarfed water spout 1hko's 90% of OU, and the few that it doesn't, such as Blissey or water absorbers, are killed by waterfall, thunder or ice beam respectively. Ludicolo is about the only thing in OU that can switch in on it and it forces every team to either carry Kyogre, or Ludicolo. He also replaces every single water type in the OU metagame (is a better CMer than Suicune, takes special hits better than Milotic, etc), restricting diversity instead of helping it. Do I get a prize?

Edit: beaten to the punch.
 
Obi said:
Blissey should already be running Special Defense.
Click to expand...

Blissey has to have pretty much max Special Defense to deal with Kyogre and although i agree Blissey should be running Special Defence, it doesn't have any reason to be running that much in the current OU metagame and as far as Celebi and Abomasnow are concerned they can both be respectively 2HKOed by a Kyogre's Water Spout despite their resistance.

As for allowing most of these Ubers in OU, i agree with you to some degree but as to your choices of to what pokemon should be allowed I'd have to greatly disagree with some.
Lati@s is currently being tested without the Soul Dew and there arent alot of complaints so far of having to deal with it in OU, so i dont see why it should be allowed in the possible list of OU-allowed Ubers

Palkia and Dialga are both extremely hard hitting Sweepers and are somewhat more unbalancing in the game than some of the pokemon you listed as being "necessarily uber", nothing in his game is walling Palkia or Dialga in Uber or OU so I think you should really consider them on that list as well

Mew is listed as the best Baton Passer in the game and has enough reasons to be called so, In Adv Mew wasn't nearly as good as it is now and there isnt much in the Uber enviroment much less the entire game that can stop it from Baton Passing, which is undoubtely it's best set. OU standards would probaly be better of without it as almost everytime you would be seeing it it will get off a pass to something which could essentially end the game for you, i'd keep this pokemon in that "necessarily uber" list as well.

Everything else in the list seems pretty comfortable to be testing all at once although i too am a little sceptical about Ho-oh after seeing what it can already do the Uber Metagame.
 
I think Darkrai would ridiculously over-centralize leads. Weavile is one of the few things that keeps Gengar in check, but it doesn't match up that well against Darkrai (50% shot at OHKO with a very predictable Brick Break, but only after a 50% chance of going first...). Pretty much everything will have either Scarf or Lum Berry just because of its presence.
 
Swimrunner said:
I think Darkrai would ridiculously over-centralize leads. Weavile is one of the few things that keeps Gengar in check, but it doesn't match up that well against Darkrai (50% shot at OHKO with a very predictable Brick Break, but only after a 50% chance of going first...). Pretty much everything will have either Scarf or Lum Berry just because of its presence.
Click to expand...

Deoxy-E used Thunder wave or Deoxy E use Superpower,
Ninjask used Protect,Ninjask used Bug Move
Yanmega used Protect,Yanmega used Bug Move
Jolteon used Thunderwave or Jolteon used HP fighting
Sleep talker as starters
Lum Berry
Choice Scarf

The metagame would adjust,It did weavile when was a popular starter,It would adjust to Darkrai too.
 
Hidden Power Fighting what the fuck, Thunderbolt would do more.

With all of these at once

Manaphy
Mew
Ho-oh
Palkia
Dialga
Darkrai
Deoxys-D
Kyogre
Wobbuffet
Lugia
Click to expand...

They might be able to balance each other out, but the amount of other Pokemon that could compete would probably be pretty damn low compared to what we have now. Every Pokemon is now hurt more by moveslot syndrome and 6 slots in your team as it is now already isn't enough to moderately cover you against the most predictable and obvious sweepers such as Salamence and Tyranitar.
 
Obi said:
With all the discussion about which Pokemon should be unbanned, I decided I should take a crack at framing the debate how I feel it ought to be discussed.
great, this thread is needed.

The question shouldn't be "Is this Pokemon OK to unban?", because that presumes it's uber. Rather, the question should be "Which Pokemon are uber?". This sounds both obvious and identical to the first question, but the way you frame the question has a huge impact.
yea, thats like AA's "if beedrill somehow got into the uber tier" thing.

When I say I feel everything should be tested, people often respond with "Oh, what about Mewtwo / Rayquaza / Deoxys-A / Geodude?". My answer to that is still yes. Things often play out differently in theory than in reality. However, that doesn't mean we still need to test it. There's this tier called the uber tier. It has all the Pokemon allowed in it. This can be seen as testing Pokemon.

The following is a list of the Pokemon I feel are necessarily uber.

Rayquaza yes
Deoxys-A yes
Deoxys-M (for Mediocre, it's the weaker version of Deoxys-A, sometimes just called Deoxys) yes
Latios i personly think these will stay uber, but they sould be tested with out soul dew
Latias i personly think these will stay uber, but they sould be tested with out soul dew
Groudon yes
Mewtwo yes

If you'll notice, most of the Pokemon here are offensive. I feel it's best to have the first round of bans offensive (because they are more obviously unbalanced).
sounds right
However, with such heavy-hitters gone, the following Pokemon are too difficult to take down.

Giratina yes

That leaves the following Pokemon that are currently marked as uber:

Manaphy deserves testing, it has the same stats as several OU's, but much better movepool than jirachi and much better typeing than celebii. i say test.
Mew maybe a short test, its batton pasing is good but its kinda jeck of all trades, king of none.
Ho-oh amazing stats, good movepool, bad typeing. i say it needs a test just so we can be sure about it, but i doubt it wil stay in OU.
Palkia it has 150 base sp. attack, enough attack to 1ko blissey and good defences. i dont think this needs be tested, especerly if kyorge is tested at the same time.
Dialga same deal as with palkia, but add awsome defencive typeing, and remove the kyorge bit.
Darkrai its fast its got a great movepool, but i say a test is deserved.
Deoxys-D it can be beaten, but not with ease. i say it needs a test, but expect it to remain uber.
Kyogre come on, kyorge in OU can you please explain this. kyorge is one of the most uber ubers, with prediction and a good moveset it can beat anything.
Wobbuffet test, theorymon will not aply well to this pokemon.
Lugia same as deoxys-D

Now, I have my suspicions that Lugia, Mew, and Palkia would also turn out to be uber for sure. However, I haven't found them to be too overpowering in the current uber environment.
in the current uber environment, what about the OU enviroment?

The proper way to go about this is to decide on all the Pokemon that are necessarily uber, and allow the rest all at once. You cannot get an accurate depiction of how they will work any other way. If the ultimate game might include X, Y, and Z Pokemon, and you allow them one at a time, that's not an accurate portrayal of how they will actually work.
what about testing them 3-4 at at a time? it would overwhelm the current OU enviroment if you added 10 pokemon that are, if not too powerful, extremly strong.
Click to expand...
 
Wobboffet

Now, I always had thought of this. Wobboffet is the "ultimate" counterer. Now yeah, Go in with a Ninjask with its high attack and uses X-Scissor to relly dent Ffet. But then Ffet uses Counter and strikes back even harder, OHKOing Jask. But, I always thought that Counter was a Fighting type move and it is. Now, that means any Physical Ghost can come in and Pulverise Wobbo with its moves. But who would leave Wobbo in to this onslaught. Well thats where this comes in. Mean Look. Your going to be faster than Wobbo. Most Ghosts are faster, and the first one that comes to mind is Dusknoir. It is definatly faster, and would be able to get Mean look in. Now, the trainer could predict that, and encore. But it is a little unexpected IMO. Then Dusknoir has Shadow Snke/Punch and can wail away on Wobbo with out Wobbo hitting back. Any thoughts?
 
Mekkah said:
Hidden Power Fighting what the fuck, Thunderbolt would do more.
Click to expand...

Hahaha, I lol'd at that one. Funnily enough, no one ever figures that out. "@_@ lets counter Darkrai WITH HP FIGHT ZOMG".


Anyhow, about the list on the first post, I can see every one of these have chances of being accepted in OU play with the exceptions being Kyogre and Lugia.

Since everyone has been going OHNOEZ NOT KYOGAR IN OU, lets look at his indirect changes a.k.a. permanent OU rain for the sake of information.

Rain effects:

Water type moves are increased in power by 50%, and Fire type moves are decreased by 50%.

Although its speculative, this, in general, would be balanced out by itself: Steel types become more popular (Bronzong on every team) --> Water moves become used more so that Steels get hit by 50% boosted non-resistant attacks in their face --> Fire moves decrease in usage due to limited power ---> Fire moves increase in usage to hit those Steel types when the rain is dealt with --> etc. Its a cycle.

Thunder becomes 100% accurate, Solarbeam takes two turns two charge, Morning Sun and Moonlight only recover 25% of the user's hp.

Now, who the hell cares about Solarbeam? No one really. Morning Sun and Moonlight in Rain are a pain in the ass, but one we already have to deal with regardless due to Sandstorm (hint: Resttalk Cress anyone?). So, the most notable change here is Thunder- which with 100% accuracy is a 120bp move with an amazing 30% chance of paralysis - and that can be a pain, and a huge one at that: You only thought you feared BoltBeam before.

Pokemon Abilities: Dry Skin, Hydration, Rain Dish, Swiftswim.

Dry Skin - Awesome, we get to use Toxicroak and Parasect some more.

Hydration - Dewgong will love this, but no one cares. Manaphy.. will indeed become harder to counter than ever, since its Surf, after one Tail Glow, will laugh at life. This is one of the problems of "de-Uberizing" many things at once, and would have to be looked at.

Rain Dish - Ludicolo is an extremely underestimated pokemon, but it will stop being one when the set Toxic / Protect / Leech Seed / Surf begins to thrive in permanent rain with Rain Dish.

Swiftswim - The biggie here. Seaking, Omastar, Kabutops, Kingdra, Qwilfish (hell yes), Floatzel, Relicanth, Gorebyss.

You will notice I've left out a few, and if you really want to elaborate on the game-breaking advatanges of permanent rain to Surskit and Luvdisc you may. Anyhow, all above listed pokemon would increase in usage at least somewhat.

Now, all of these changes, with the possible exception of Thunder becoming a godly move and the definite exception of Manaphy, are positive for the metagame and diverse it instead of overcentralizing it; Didn't you ever want to use Qwilfish to rape everything with Waterfall and explode in someone's ugly face before death?
 
Of everything listed, I think definitely Manaphy, Mew, and Wobbuffet could be tested.

Manaphy's strong, but can be dealt with. Rain Dance teams will always carry it, but if you bring along a good electric user, it's got some trouble.

Mew is awesome, and basically could end up a powered-up Smeargle, but it can be overpowered with a strong Dark/Ghost, and those are common.

Wobbuffet is just annoying. Start using Shed Shells or have a mixed sweeper and you'll be able to take it down, it might just cost you one member of your team and a few turns of stall.

The rest of them I'm a little more iffy about, but everything can be countered. Kyogre coming down might mean we see more CM Raikous carrying Thunder, or even Pikachu. Stone Edge can take down Ho-oh, etc.
 
Ok this is what I posted in the other uber thread, and I didn't feel like typing it all again so...

Personally I'm for Manaphy, Mew, and Latias, and Deoxys-S being considered for demotion.

Tyranitar is already in the Top 5 OU list and has the natural ability to fuck
up manaphy's day. As does abamasnow while resisting surf, grassknot, and only taking neutral damage from Ice Beam while hitting back with a SE woodhammer. Basically I see it this way: With the Darkrai thread, its uber because it needs two pokes to counter it. Manaphy needs another poke to sweep. What happens if your rain dancer is bronzong and it dances then explodes, and I switch in abamasnow? Abamasnow Wood Hammer with no Attack EVs does 67-79% to the Tail Glow Sweeper, and it CAN'T rest off the damage. Meanwhile, Manaphy without Tail Glow BUT with Life Orb only does 28-33% with Ice Beam (The Abamasnow calcs are taken from the mixed attacker lead set with 160SpD EVs)When the original testing was done, Abamasnow was thought of as a joke UU poke (thank God for Obi...)

As far as Latias goes, I think any pokemon built for taking special hits but does so worse than blissey needs consideration. It would be nice to have a solid wish passer other than jirachi/vaporeon. True it can calm mind, but so can suicune, and celebi, and blissey, etc.

Also the fact that everyone wants to use Mew to BP stuff convinces me that it should be considered (although my bias might be showing. After all, he's my favorite poke) Honestly though, just because something has a massive movepool doesn't mean that people don't pick out the best ones and stick them together. That's why we have mixape. He has access to Thunderpunch, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Flareblitz, Focus Blast, Mach Punch, Swords Dance, Taunt Aerial Ace, Poison Jab, U-Turn, Fake Out and Encore, yet 90% of people use Close Combat/Flamethrower/Nasty Plot/Grass Knot because it works BEST. As big as Mew' Movepool is, one set is going to outshine the others and become the standard.

And obviously the Deoxys-S case had been made over and over again.

And thank you if you took the time to read all this. (And sorry if posting the same thing in similar threads is against the rules)
 
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