DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A DISCUSSION THREAD AND NOT A STATEMENT. THE COMMENTS MADE IN THE 'FOR TESTING' BOX ARE IN NO WAY RELATED TO MY PERSONAL OPINIONS.
JUST THOUGHT I'D CLEAR THAT UP.
INTRODUCTION
Before we start this, I would like everyone who thinks me another ban-happy hoodlum (and we’ve got enough of those to make your suspicion justified, in my opinion) to know that my personal views do not reflect any conviction on Salamence’s banning. In no way do I think it is Uber, but the point being that minds greater and more advanced than ours consider it viable for promotion. In any case, for the most part I am merely stating known facts and not MOO.
Okay, I’ve been hanging around Policy Review recently, and the general theme for discussion appears to have gone off on a tangent; or rather, whether or not Salamence is now sufficiently powerful to warrant a Suspect test in the near future. Normally, I would consider this sort of thing to be along the lines of BAN DUALSCREEN or something. But this is Policy Review, home to the most educated minds on Smogon. But I said to myself, the common people of the community should express their views, and I assume you can do it here (or at least until a mod locks this thread and posts an identical one a few weeks later).
So, although I am sceptical of these definitions, here are, for the thousandth time, the Official Smogon Requirements for Uberness…
HP – 95
ATK – 135
DEF – 80
SATK – 110
SDEF – 80
SPD – 100
As most people know, Salamence is proficient in both attacking stats, and therefore proficient also in the unpredictability factor, galvanised by its impeccable movepool. We can rule out the Defensive characteristic since, despite access to Intimidate, Immunity/Resistance to common attacking types and Roost, it still has a glaring Ice weakness (naturally) to make bulkier sets not worthwhile. Support is even less viable, despite access to excellent moves such as Roar and Wish.
So we move on to that characteristic that, really, is going to decide every Pokémon’s fate. I mean its attack, naturally. And as far as power is concerned, Salamence has it in spades. It is more powerful physically than Garchomp and more powerful specially than Infernape. What is really letting it down now is what Raikoulover once said is deciding the fate of the Latis – its speed. It lingers in that area that most of OU fills, the base 100 mark, and is somewhere that I like to call ‘CS or not CS – that is the question.’
SUMMARY
STATISTICS:
Base Stats: 95 / 135 / 80 / 110 / 80 / 100 (Total: 600)
Notable moves: Dragon Dance, Crunch, Dragon Claw, Toxic, Hidden Power, Earthquake, Brick Break, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Roost, Dragon Pulse, Shadow Claw, Stone Edge, Rock Slide, Draco Meteor, Aqua Tail, Outrage, Hydro Pump, Wish
Weaknesses: Ice (!), Dragon, Rock
Resistances: Fire, Water, Grass (!), Fighting, Bug
Immunities: Ground, Spikes, Toxic Spikes
ARGUMENTS:
My Impressions: Comparisons to its fellow Dragons and even fellow sweepers are these days inevitable, although Salamence has usually spent time as a benchmark for ‘lesser’ Dragons to be measured against. Flygon, Dragonite, Kingdra and now, Latias. Flygon has STAB Earthquake and SR resistance but lacks the raw power to back it up, as well as any moves to boost those stats. Kingdra is in a similar boat, with fairly average stats than anything, but what pitches it up is the ability to boost these stats, as well as having a better offensive (and arguably defensive) typing than Salamence. A fairly generic water-type movepool lets it down a bit, though. Latias is still fairly new to Standard play, so nothing much can be gained from analysing it. Really, Dragonite is the most easily comparable, having similar stats, identical typing and very similar roles. Dragonite has Salamence’s movepool, plus a little extra – Focus Blast, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, in particular, on the special side, and on the physical side, Elemental Punches, SuperPower and, until recently, Outrage and Aqua Tail. Not to mention Team Support options like Thunder Wave as well as better defensive stats. But where Salamence shines most is raw power. Faster, and stronger in both attacking stats (although admittedly in Physical attack the difference is negligible), Salamence has just that little edge that allows it to bypass foes that Dragonite sometimes struggles against. Besides, Salamence has a giant movepool anyway; it gets all the type coverage it needs. But more importantly, it can make use of its head start, and boost those stats. I would, to be fair, compare it to Rayquaza or Garchomp, but their arguments are mostly filled in by Dragonite or Flygon (respectively) and I hate repeating myself.
FOR Testing: (I’m going to be this guy:
for this section)
Just a remider:
This sounds a lot like Garchomp, doesn’t it?
Looking at Pokémon that stop the most popular set, the Dragon Dancer, most of them are either declining in usage or not used much at all. Using December statistics, courtesy of DougJustDoug (thanks!) Porygon2 and Donphan, the most reliable checks, are struggling to stay Overused (and P2 isn’t anyway), approximately a third of all Bronzong are used as leads, and Weavile and Mamoswine are declining in use due to Scizor mania (and then increasing to combat the steel-and-dragon-heavy OU tier. And it’s not Garchomp - we can never afford to be wrong about Salamence’s set, since switching in something like Donphan to meet a Specs Draco Meteor can be game changing. And even then, it’s a big threat. There’s no need for damage calculations – one way or another, Salamence is at least 2HKOing every Pokémon in Standard, meaning barely anything can switch into it. Although, I will admit, it is not always sweeping, it more than has the potential to do so. Salamence is possibly the most powerful Offensive Pokémon in current OU, and is as such worthy of being at least tested, even if it is not found Uber in the long run.
AGAINST Testing: (I’m going to be this guy:
for this section)
Yes, Salamence is powerful… but not, I am certain, enough to warrant a ban. It will not ‘balance’ the Metagame more, and it is not the best physical sweeper, or wall-breaker, and certainly not the best Pokémon, around. The fact that it can do both is beneficial, yes, but it still lacks the necessary to sweep a ‘majority of OU teams’ as stated by the guidelines for the banning of Pokémon. There are plenty of reliable checks to it, and bulky waters are still as strong as they ever were. And teams that do not contain Salamence are no less likely to win than teams that do. So Salamence is 2HKOing every Pokémon in Standard. So is Dragonite. And we’re not asking for Dragonite to be banned. And those lower offensive stats make very little difference in the long run. In fact, most of the sweepers of OU have no reliable switch-ins, so should we ban all of them? Most of them have qualities of their own that are just as good as Salamence’s.
Salamence’s typing grants it a massive weakness to an attacking type that is not only useful for other things, courtesy of its fantastic coverage, but also very widely accessible to most sweepers in the form of TM 13 (unlucky for some…). Even if it were worthy of testing, it would be ridiculous to consider it any time soon. Moving a traditionally OU Pokémon is no joke to most of the community, and sensitive areas should be taken on last, when the time is better. Even so, we have far too many suspects to test at this point to even talk about a possible Salamence test in the near future.
FINAL BIT:
Thank you for your patience. If there is anything you think should be added or removed from the arguments section, feel free to input it. Please remember that I do not at the moment have an opinion as to whether this should, or should not, be Uber, or even included as a Suspect.
Please Discuss.
JUST THOUGHT I'D CLEAR THAT UP.
Before we start this, I would like everyone who thinks me another ban-happy hoodlum (and we’ve got enough of those to make your suspicion justified, in my opinion) to know that my personal views do not reflect any conviction on Salamence’s banning. In no way do I think it is Uber, but the point being that minds greater and more advanced than ours consider it viable for promotion. In any case, for the most part I am merely stating known facts and not MOO.
Okay, I’ve been hanging around Policy Review recently, and the general theme for discussion appears to have gone off on a tangent; or rather, whether or not Salamence is now sufficiently powerful to warrant a Suspect test in the near future. Normally, I would consider this sort of thing to be along the lines of BAN DUALSCREEN or something. But this is Policy Review, home to the most educated minds on Smogon. But I said to myself, the common people of the community should express their views, and I assume you can do it here (or at least until a mod locks this thread and posts an identical one a few weeks later).
So, although I am sceptical of these definitions, here are, for the thousandth time, the Official Smogon Requirements for Uberness…
Now, we should start by looking at Salamence’s base stats.
HP – 95
ATK – 135
DEF – 80
SATK – 110
SDEF – 80
SPD – 100
As most people know, Salamence is proficient in both attacking stats, and therefore proficient also in the unpredictability factor, galvanised by its impeccable movepool. We can rule out the Defensive characteristic since, despite access to Intimidate, Immunity/Resistance to common attacking types and Roost, it still has a glaring Ice weakness (naturally) to make bulkier sets not worthwhile. Support is even less viable, despite access to excellent moves such as Roar and Wish.
So we move on to that characteristic that, really, is going to decide every Pokémon’s fate. I mean its attack, naturally. And as far as power is concerned, Salamence has it in spades. It is more powerful physically than Garchomp and more powerful specially than Infernape. What is really letting it down now is what Raikoulover once said is deciding the fate of the Latis – its speed. It lingers in that area that most of OU fills, the base 100 mark, and is somewhere that I like to call ‘CS or not CS – that is the question.’
STATISTICS:
Base Stats: 95 / 135 / 80 / 110 / 80 / 100 (Total: 600)
Notable moves: Dragon Dance, Crunch, Dragon Claw, Toxic, Hidden Power, Earthquake, Brick Break, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Roost, Dragon Pulse, Shadow Claw, Stone Edge, Rock Slide, Draco Meteor, Aqua Tail, Outrage, Hydro Pump, Wish
Weaknesses: Ice (!), Dragon, Rock
Resistances: Fire, Water, Grass (!), Fighting, Bug
Immunities: Ground, Spikes, Toxic Spikes
My Impressions: Comparisons to its fellow Dragons and even fellow sweepers are these days inevitable, although Salamence has usually spent time as a benchmark for ‘lesser’ Dragons to be measured against. Flygon, Dragonite, Kingdra and now, Latias. Flygon has STAB Earthquake and SR resistance but lacks the raw power to back it up, as well as any moves to boost those stats. Kingdra is in a similar boat, with fairly average stats than anything, but what pitches it up is the ability to boost these stats, as well as having a better offensive (and arguably defensive) typing than Salamence. A fairly generic water-type movepool lets it down a bit, though. Latias is still fairly new to Standard play, so nothing much can be gained from analysing it. Really, Dragonite is the most easily comparable, having similar stats, identical typing and very similar roles. Dragonite has Salamence’s movepool, plus a little extra – Focus Blast, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, in particular, on the special side, and on the physical side, Elemental Punches, SuperPower and, until recently, Outrage and Aqua Tail. Not to mention Team Support options like Thunder Wave as well as better defensive stats. But where Salamence shines most is raw power. Faster, and stronger in both attacking stats (although admittedly in Physical attack the difference is negligible), Salamence has just that little edge that allows it to bypass foes that Dragonite sometimes struggles against. Besides, Salamence has a giant movepool anyway; it gets all the type coverage it needs. But more importantly, it can make use of its head start, and boost those stats. I would, to be fair, compare it to Rayquaza or Garchomp, but their arguments are mostly filled in by Dragonite or Flygon (respectively) and I hate repeating myself.
FOR Testing: (I’m going to be this guy:
Just a remider:
According to Smogon’s analysis, the three ways to stop DDMence are as follows: a) Use a reliable check, b) Use something faster, or c) wait until it uses Outrage and revenge-kill it.
This sounds a lot like Garchomp, doesn’t it?
Looking at Pokémon that stop the most popular set, the Dragon Dancer, most of them are either declining in usage or not used much at all. Using December statistics, courtesy of DougJustDoug (thanks!) Porygon2 and Donphan, the most reliable checks, are struggling to stay Overused (and P2 isn’t anyway), approximately a third of all Bronzong are used as leads, and Weavile and Mamoswine are declining in use due to Scizor mania (and then increasing to combat the steel-and-dragon-heavy OU tier. And it’s not Garchomp - we can never afford to be wrong about Salamence’s set, since switching in something like Donphan to meet a Specs Draco Meteor can be game changing. And even then, it’s a big threat. There’s no need for damage calculations – one way or another, Salamence is at least 2HKOing every Pokémon in Standard, meaning barely anything can switch into it. Although, I will admit, it is not always sweeping, it more than has the potential to do so. Salamence is possibly the most powerful Offensive Pokémon in current OU, and is as such worthy of being at least tested, even if it is not found Uber in the long run.
AGAINST Testing: (I’m going to be this guy:
Yes, Salamence is powerful… but not, I am certain, enough to warrant a ban. It will not ‘balance’ the Metagame more, and it is not the best physical sweeper, or wall-breaker, and certainly not the best Pokémon, around. The fact that it can do both is beneficial, yes, but it still lacks the necessary to sweep a ‘majority of OU teams’ as stated by the guidelines for the banning of Pokémon. There are plenty of reliable checks to it, and bulky waters are still as strong as they ever were. And teams that do not contain Salamence are no less likely to win than teams that do. So Salamence is 2HKOing every Pokémon in Standard. So is Dragonite. And we’re not asking for Dragonite to be banned. And those lower offensive stats make very little difference in the long run. In fact, most of the sweepers of OU have no reliable switch-ins, so should we ban all of them? Most of them have qualities of their own that are just as good as Salamence’s.
Salamence’s typing grants it a massive weakness to an attacking type that is not only useful for other things, courtesy of its fantastic coverage, but also very widely accessible to most sweepers in the form of TM 13 (unlucky for some…). Even if it were worthy of testing, it would be ridiculous to consider it any time soon. Moving a traditionally OU Pokémon is no joke to most of the community, and sensitive areas should be taken on last, when the time is better. Even so, we have far too many suspects to test at this point to even talk about a possible Salamence test in the near future.
Thank you for your patience. If there is anything you think should be added or removed from the arguments section, feel free to input it. Please remember that I do not at the moment have an opinion as to whether this should, or should not, be Uber, or even included as a Suspect.
Please Discuss.
