CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 14a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

One move that has been overlooked in this thread is Fake Out, which I am throwing support for. The reason behind this is that with it, Collosoil can function extremely well as an anti-lead, being able to completely destroy Focus Sash Roserade and Smeargle leads (yes it gets Taunt, but a) Roserade can beat Collosoil with Leaf Storm and b) It's just better to kill rather than Taunt). In fact, Swampert seems to be the only lead that can really give Collosoil any trouble.

For those of you who are inevitably going to cry "but with Fake Out it has a free turn to activate its Flame Orb and sweep!", I'd just like to say that a Collosoil relying on 3 remaining physical attacks to sweep isn't going to get far. Fire Blast? Collosoil is then sacrificing a lot of raw sweeping power for the sole purpose of beating Skarmory and Scizor.

I am totally against Trick. Who cares if Collosoil can use it well? The point is that Collosoil is supposed to be stopping the secondary. By introducing a Pokemon capable of effectively using Trick into the metagame, you are encouraging the secondary, not stopping it, and thus going against the purpose of CAP9.

I also dislike Roar. It's a good move for stopping Baton Pass chains (although is that even a secondary?), but Collosoil already has Taunt at its disposal. The only other reason you would really bother running Roar is to spike shuffle.

Allowed

Taunt
Toxic
Rest
Sleep Talk
Rapid Spin
Knock Off
Substitute

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The only thing I'm not quite sure on is toxic. How can CAP9 reliably stop the secondary if he, in turn, becomes a user of it? The same holds true for Knock Off and Rapid Spin, though a little less on Rapid Spin since it stops the secondary as well.

Pending

Trick
Heal Bell

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I'm not so much a fan of Trick on CAP9 as it's whole purpose is to stop the secondary. What good will that do if it now uses it? Here's a scenario that I would say is not so farfetched: Your CAP9 switches in and gets a Trick Scarf. He uses Trick. They switch in their CAP9. Wow. Productive, huh?

Controversial

Torment
Block
Fake Out
Iron Defense
Rock Polish
Roar

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Torment: With a good list of weaknesses, I don't see him taking advantage of this. I say allow, because it won't make or break him at all. If you look at any of the 'mon he is supposed to come in on, you'll see that he won't even need it to effectively cripple them. Looking at his checks? They won't care at all.

Block: Allow, simply because I don't see this as being useful at all. Even mean look has never bothered me on a competitive level. It's just not as useful as I think a lot of people give it credit for.

Fake Out: Allow, because it will do pitiful damage without STAB or Technician (the main two reasons it even sees play outside of the odd Leadape). Not only that, but most of the secondary users it will be stopping are Ghost or have rather impressive defensive stats.

Iron Defense: Disallow. With it, there shall be temptation. The only defense increasing move I would consider giving it would be Stockpile, since it takes two turns to reach the same level as Iron Defense.

Rock Polish: Disallow. Hands down, I do not want this CAP getting any sort of stat boosting move. It already has the stats and tools at it's disposal to wipe the floor with most secondary users. It doesn't need to mop up the entire tier as well.

Roar: Are you getting tired of my arguement about not giving it secondary moves because that would be a contradiction to it's nature? Well, here it is again. It's whole purpose is to stop the secondary. What does Roar typically do? Increase entry hazard damage. Seems counterintuitive to me.

Disallowed

Swords Dance
Bulk Up
Howl
Baton Pass
Will o Wisp
Thunder Wave
Spore (and any other sleep inducing move)
Entry Hazards (SR, Spikes, TS)
Recovery moves (excluding aqua ring, ingrain and rest)

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I concur with all of these. In no way shall Mr. Blubbers be stopping any secondary moves if he is using them as well.

Also, note: Am I the only one noticing half the people here butchering this CAP's name? I mean, come on people. We just had the name poll. Colossoil isn't so complicated that it has to be misspelled half the thread.

Hmm... I'm also going to move for Toxic to be moved to Disallowed. First off, we already got rid of that trend stuff in saying no to Stealth Rock and in also having done stuff like not letting Arghonaut directly learn Bulk Up. Beyond that, this thing's concept is stopping the secondary, and thus, regardless of how common the move is, it's still really weird for it to actually be using them.

However... for me, at least, it's pretty much all-or-nothing when it comes to status moves and entry hazards. What I mean by that, is say, if we're going to be Allowing Toxic or Trick, then we open up stuff like Stealth Rock and Will-o-wisp for discussion under Allowed as well. Why is this? Well, you can't really say that "Colossoil is meant to stop the secondary! It can't actually use them--doing so is counter-intuitive to the concept!" as an argument against Stealth Rock (which isn't even a status move, which it seems that Colossoil wound up being more geared at stopping), but then turn around and have no problem with Toxic or Trick/Switcheroo. If you drop that point for one of them, then you've dropped it, plain and simple--you can't just go and pick it up again just for Stealth Rock and then drop it again. Plain and simply, either that is a good enough argument to bar Colossoil from getting any such moves, or it's not, and it should just be dropped and we should consider the moves merits without regards to that.

Considering this, right now, the entry hazards are dissallowed. Thus, Toxic and Trick/Switcheroo should also be moved there to be consistent with that position, and the current feelings and interpretation of Colossoil's concept. Otherwise, they should all at least be moved to Controversial to be fair, since the argument against the entry hazards wouldn't be being used consistently in that case. In any case though, all I'm really asking for is just to see some consistency in the placement of the secondary-effect moves. As long as that occurs, regardless of the side of the fence they go, I'm good.

Anyway, beyond that... I'm personally in support of Rapid Spin. It lets Colossoil get rid of entry hazards, a variety of secondary effects, and thus is relevant to the fulfillment of its concept. As such a pathetically weak un-stabbed move, it clearly doesn't have any issues with being broken, and if anything it would just being Colossoil an even bigger 4-moveslot syndrome. Thus, it's fine for me.

For people who are opposing Rapid Spin: Would like you to review Rapid Spin's effect. Once you are done that, please review the mission statement for CaP9. Put two and two together. If you still don't get it, you probably shouldn't be posting here :$.
Since people are mentioning it, I think that toxic should be disallowed, due to the irony of a pokemon that is stopping secondary effects is actually ending up using one. Even if it is an auto-TM, I think an exemtion should be made here.
This thread is dying. I hope that the new suggested moves are put into pending soon, or the current pendings decided on, and carry on into the voting process.

i agree with the allowed and disallowed list, as they stand for the moment.

towards some of the pending and controversial lists;

Trick-the community spent a large amount of time discussing how to punish trick users, so to me it seems counter productive to to then turn this into a trick user.

Heal Bell-helps recover from secondary effects that have happened, and i would say that a new cleric is always a positive thing except for the fact that we may be putting too much on this poke's plate.

Fake Out-i have truly mixed feeling about this move. it does have uses outside of activating Guts. with AMC, we are expecting this poke to switch in more than once, but combining AMC with U-turn and Fake Out seems like it is also taking the roll of a scout. it basically has the same problem i see in Heal Bell, in that we might be giving this poke too many options, so that none of them really shine.

i am completely against the stat boosts aside from Stockpile. all the others turn it into a better sweeper and tank, but stockpile has limited usage and seems much more balanced.

edit-to those that keep being against toxic, go and look at how many pokes DON'T learn it....

Fake Out looks to be pretty useful on Guts sets for picking off weakened foes and for doing quick in-and-out damage (max+ calcs):
0/0 Infernape: 91 - 108 (31.06% - 36.86%) --> Sucker Punch will actually finish it off w/ SR damage
0/0 Salamence: 83 - 98 (25.08% - 29.61%) --> also finished off w/ SP, regardless of SR; same result with neutral Atk nature
0/252 Calm Blissey: 136 - 161 (20.89% - 24.73%)
4/0 Starmie: 88 - 104 (33.59% - 39.69%)
0/4 Lucario: 69 - 81 (24.56% - 28.83%)
4/0 Roserade: 112 - 132 (42.75% - 50.38%)
0/0 Colossoil: 90 - 107 (22.11% - 26.29%)
104/252 Impish Colossoil: 62 - 73 (14.32% - 16.86%)

I don't see much use for Fake Out on non-Guts sets, but it still looks insanely useful if Colossoil can manage to switch in on non-damaging moves.

Heal Bell sounds good to me, too, as it helps defensive Colossoil be a great supporter for paralyzed/burned offensive teams, poisoned stall teams, and Rest-abusing teams. Since eliminating status effects for your team falls completely within the concept, it would seem foolish to disallow a move like this.

Same goes for Rapid Spin. As it is already Allowed and shouldn't have been up for debate in the first place, I won't go into too much detail here.

Torment should be Allowed, as its type weaknesses are often seen together (Water+Ice anything, Fighting+Bug Scizor, Fighting+Grass Infernape, etc.), so Torment Colossoil won't be the bastard TormentTran is. Torment+Taunt could be a fun way to get Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Gliscor off the field.

Roar should also be Allowed, as there are countless pokemon that carry Water/Ice/Fighting/Bug/Grass attacks on any given team that can be Roared in and force Colossoil out. It's far from broken, so let it in.

Now, a note to all those that say Colossoil should be discouraging secondary moves by not having secondary moves itself: 0_o. Good luck adding one pokemon to OU and stopping all teams from using secondary moves, or better yet, from using them effectively. You're arguing as though Colossoil is battling the entire metagame, not an opposing team. The concept of this CAP is to stop or diminish the strategical advantage of secondary moves used against teams that have the CAP on them. Naturally, it will be going on teams that could otherwise suffer from status, entry hazards, Trick, or certain pokemon themselves who can abuse secondary moves in general. If any of these goals can be accomplished by Trick (which they can), Rapid Spin (they can), Heal Bell (again), Toxic (please), Roar (see where I'm going?), etc., then those moves should be Allowed if Colossoil is to achieve its concept. If your team has a DDMence problem, you put Scarf Latias or Mamoswine on your team. If your team has a huge secondary attack weakness, you put Colossoil on your team. It's as simple as that. It's not hypocritical to use secondary attacks on a stop-the-secondary pokemon; it's good strategy.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Fat Tennisace
So I'm just wondering what the standard moveset will be. I was thinking something like: Crunch/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Fire Fang/Aqua Tail/Sucker Punch/Taunt/Encore/Heal Bell/Rapid Spin/Trick/Toxic/Rest/Sleep Talk with both AMC and Guts.

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I really like this, except you forgot to mention that it's running 252 EVs and a boosting nature in every stat.

I think we should disallow Trick because that turns it more into a secondary user, not stopper.

Toxic has to be on it, unfortunetly. Unless it's a pokemon that doesn't get TM's, it gets Toxic. It's a rule more or less set in stone, and, as such, should not be up for debate anymore than Earthquake would be in the attacking moves section.

(EDIT: Forgot Regigigas X_X, the amount of people who used that to argue with me... owch)

Trick I oppose 100%. Why did we give this thing Dark typeing? To punish common trickers, Ghosts, and Psychics. So, aside from the MASSIVE irony that this thing would have, it would be a secondary user, which is bad.

Heal Bell, I'm gonna support. Stopping the Secondary isn't just about killing the user. Getting rid of any secondary effects is important to, because, let's face it, you can't control some of it, or predict all of it (Rotom-A's Burns are a case in point, will it be scarf, or Status?)

Fake Out, seems awfully useful on the GUTS set. Last thing it needs it a free turn to cause damage, which could possibly cripple some counters, especally when it can just switch out after using it. I oppose Fake Out.

Torment... I don't care much either way.

That's about it.

ChuckMyNorris said:

I think we should disallow Trick because that turns it more into a secondary user, not stopper.

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However, Trick is the only way of beating Trick (well, there's Sticky Hold and Klutz as well but no pokemon that is usable in OU has either of those abilities). Just because CAP9 can hit most/all Trick users super effectively, doesn't mean it has beaten Trick. In fact, if CAP9 gets Tricked something but then has the ability to Trick it onto something else later, this theoretically deters people from mindlessly spamming Trick more so than just losing the Trick user because said Trick user has accomplished its mission. Therefore I feel Trick should not be disallowed just because it turns CAP9 into a secondary user. As Raikaria pointed out, Toxic is mandatory so CAP9 is already going to get a few moves that rely on secondary effects. If Trick should be disallowed, there must be another reason. If there is no other reason, then Trick should be allowed.

I have a slight problem with Trick. Consider this illustrative scenario.

CaP9 switches in on, say, Jirachi's Thunder Wave. Burn Orb activates Guts. Opponent switches in Hippowdon to take CaP9's EQ. CaP9 Tricks the Burn Orb onto Hippowdon and takes its leftovers. Now you have a burned Hippowdon with no Leftovers recovery you can't even cure with Heal Bell, and CaP9 has 1.5x attack at the cost of 6% per turn. None of CaP9's prospective counters want that Burn Orb. Gyarados, Mence, and Scizor might inadvertently give you LO/CB, but you can always dump that on something else, and in the meantime, enjoy an awesome 2x attack power.

If this is an acceptable scenario, then I'm fine with Trick. But I think it might be a bit overpowered. No Pokemon with an ability that benefits from status gets Trick/Switcheroo, and this may very well be why.

Have we not already reasoned that Collosoil punishes Trick users enough as it is? I feel like we're going backwards here.

First of all, it has that STAB Pursuit. Most users of Trick in OU are weak to the Dark type (the only commonly seen one that isn't is Jirachi).

Secondly, Collosoil is completely capable of running a Choice item of its own. This totally screws up anything trying to use Trick as it switches in. Hell, Collosoil is equally capable of running Flame Orb, yet another item that hurts anything trying to exchange items with it.

Third, does Collosoil actually mind getting Tricked? The most common item used with Trick users is Choice Scarf by a landslide. Collosoil, a Pokemon with a great attack and a very respectable speed, evidently does not get crippled by this too much unless it's an unusually defensive set (and given a lack of recovery/stat moves/secondary moves as well as average defensive typing, I doubt defensive sets will see much use). If Collosoil is running the overhyped Flame Orb, then holy shit it now has +1 in speed and attack, and the opposing Pokemon is burned. I'd take that any day.

Clearly, Collosoil is already able to deal with Trick users. What then, is the point of giving it Trick?

OP updated with significant controversial moves and changes.

How is Rock Polish still in controversial? I've seen nothing but calls for it to be disallowed, mostly based on the fact that it can EV itself to outspeed every scarfer in the game and still have 565 attack and be unrevengeable by even CBMamo until after 2 turns of Burn damage or 3 turns of Toxic Orb damage.

Also, I noticed Iron Defense is not on the list. Does that mean it is no longer considered competitive?

Raikaria said:

So let's give something with possibly better bulk than any Non-Uber that has Recover, said move. (Celebi is about the same overall, lower HP, but higher defences, but Celebi has a FAR worse typeing, 7 weaknesses, no immunities)

Needless to say, that in itself makes an issue, because as well as testing the waters with the GUTs attacker with the highest base attack, and a new ability, and a new typing, we'll be testing the waters with the bulkiest non-Uber Recover user.

Then it might be getting Iron Defence, Stockpile, and/or Amnesia. We don't need a bulkier Craydily running about, that can actually hurt stuff, do we?

Oh, and let's all remember, that while CAP9 has lots of weaknesses, it also has resists, and 2 immunities, not to mention can switch in on status, free of charge! They are not 'lackluster' either. Ghost and Rock are somewhat common attacking types in OU. Dark is as well. Thunderbolt is the 3rd most used attacking move (Possibly higher in CAP with Argonaught being weak to it and Cyclohm running around)

Something tells me that is FAR too much. With Recover, everyone would be running around with Guts, Recover, Flame Orb + 3 attacks. Either that, or Recover, AMC, Life Orb, and Three Attacks.

Another, less reliable, recovery move, maybe, but NOT recover. It would be plain broken.

Even then, I would oppose recovery outside of Rest.

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Yet another reason why I opposed Guts, because we have to nerf its defensive AND offensive movepool in order to make sure it is not overpowered.

Currently though, here's how our CAP looks resistance wise.

2x weak to Ice, Water, Grass, Bug, and Fighting. All of these are incredibly common offensive types.

2x resist to Dark, Ghost, Poison, and Rock

Immunity to Electric and Psychic.

Common Walls: Hippowdon, Skarmory, Blissey, Foretress, Bronzong, Celebi, Cresselia, Latias, Swampert, Vaporeon, and Gyarados.

Of these, CAP 9 is only resistant/immune to ONE STAB. How is this going to be stopping the second if it cannot switch into basically any attack used by common walls! I just see this concept slowly failing more and more if it cannot recover off damage caused by secondary users.

Also, why are you so worried about this thing sweeping with Recover + 3 Attacks when it has a base 95 speed? In a fast-paced meta-game, it won't hold a candle to the quicker sweepers. (Many of whom have recover)

I don't know if I'm completely missing something or what, but why the hell are we banning a recovery move?

Maybe we could make a recovery move that recovers 25%, and if you're in sandstorm it recovers 50%?

Plus said:

Controversial

Moonlight/Morning Sun
Toxic
Heal Bell
Fake Out (on the fence)
Rock Polish
Roar
Encore
...
Ingrain

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Reasoning:

Moonlight/Morning Sun
It's going to be in Sandstorm 75% of the time anyway, so even if we give this to it, no one would use it. Plus, it doesn't "look" like a giant land shark can harness celestial power to heal itself, so no.

Toxic
Almost anything can get Toxic, and it doesn't look like it'll be doing a lot to Skarm/Bronzong anyway, so yes.

Heal Bell
It doesn't look like it'll be doing a lot with Heal Bell, either, because Toxic, TWave, and WoW are resisted by Skarmory/Bronzong, Hippowdon/Swampert (and itself), and Heatran respectively, all great candidates for Sandstorm. So no.

Fake Out
I'm a little on the fence with this one, so it's a little hard to say right now. So this one is pending, although it doesn't really look like it can use Fake Out.

Rock Polish
It already has loads of speed for a tank, just trailing the fastest (Celebi, Jirachi, Latias, Fidgit). It may use that to outspeed them, but I think it's a little overpowered. So no.

Roar
Definitely looks like it can use Roar, but since it has no entry hazards (and not a lot of status either), this could be redundant. I'm still going to say most likely.

Encore
Now this move is interesting. It could force leads loaded with entry hazards to switch, then simply Rapid Spin as they switch. I'm going to say Yes on this one.
　
　
　
Ingrain
Hm...It can't be phazed out. Definite impediment to the SR/Roar combo. I'm really liking this idea, so I'm going to say Yes.

thebattleax said:

Reasoning:

Moonlight/Morning Sun
It's going to be in Sandstorm 75% of the time anyway, so even if we give this to it, no one would use it. Plus, it doesn't "look" like a giant land shark can harness celestial power to heal itself, so no.

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If an option sucks, then there's no reason to disallow it. Moves are only disallowed if they are actually problematic for some reason.

Heal Bell
It doesn't look like it'll be doing a lot with Heal Bell, either, because Toxic, TWave, and WoW are resisted by Skarmory/Bronzong, Hippowdon/Swampert (and itself), and Heatran respectively, all great candidates for Sandstorm. So no.

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...What are you talking about here? Yes, those Pokemon might resist those moves--that's just reasons why those moves might not be good options though (and again that wouldn't be a reason to disallow them, since moves aren't disallowed because they suck--just the opposite). That says nothing about Heal Bell, though, as Heal Bell is not Toxic, WoW, or T-wave, so I'm not sure what you're actual objection to Heal Bell is here.

for said:

Fake Out
Moonlight/Morning Sun
Toxic
Heal Bell

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Fake Out is a most have IMO. It could be very useful as a lead, since most leads try to set up their secondary on the first turn, Fake Out would be a great asset in stopping this. Everything else gets Toxic, so why not this. Heal Bell is also a necessity. The one move I'm in the middle about its Moonlight/Morning Sun. It could be good, if stopping Sandstorm is a priority for you, otherwise not much will come of it.

against said:

Rock Polish
Roar
Encore

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I feel giving it Rock Polish, will encourage more sweeper like sets, which isn't what this thing is meant to do. Roar, while it might seem good at stopping the secondary really isn't in my eyes, with its negative priority. Encore is the other move I'm on the fence with, but it just seems to powerful to me right now.

pkmn-taicho321 said:

Howl was already disallowed, which is the same as Sharpen, and so was Accupressure.

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Sharpen fits the concept more... and no one has said anything about Accupressure.

I think there should be a rule or something against banning moves on the factor of "uselessness" :/

If we ban stuff on that basis, we can pretty much rule out a HUGE amount of moves and ban them right away, like ember, tackle, leer etc which is rediculous. I think it should be made pretty clear in future CAP's.

If its useless, it's flavor, and therefore allowed. I don't know where all the talk of banning useless moves came from, but its completely counterintuitive. Only suggest bans for moves you think are overpowered or competitive moves that don't go with the concept.

On that note, why is Toxic controversial, its complete shit and this Pokemon will have 4mss up the ass anyway.
Edit: <%Deck> I'm pretty sure Toxic is mostly saliva, not shit.

Oddish On Fire said:

Yet another reason why I opposed Guts, because we have to nerf its defensive AND offensive movepool in order to make sure it is not overpowered.

Currently though, here's how our CAP looks resistance wise.

2x weak to Ice, Water, Grass, Bug, and Fighting. All of these are incredibly common offensive types.

2x resist to Dark, Ghost, Poison, and Rock

Immunity to Electric and Psychic.

Common Walls: Hippowdon, Skarmory, Blissey, Foretress, Bronzong, Celebi, Cresselia, Latias, Swampert, Vaporeon, and Gyarados.

Of these, CAP 9 is only resistant/immune to ONE STAB. How is this going to be stopping the second if it cannot switch into basically any attack used by common walls! I just see this concept slowly failing more and more if it cannot recover off damage caused by secondary users.

Also, why are you so worried about this thing sweeping with Recover + 3 Attacks when it has a base 95 speed? In a fast-paced meta-game, it won't hold a candle to the quicker sweepers. (Many of whom have recover)

I don't know if I'm completely missing something or what, but why the hell are we banning a recovery move?

Maybe we could make a recovery move that recovers 25%, and if you're in sandstorm it recovers 50%?

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I opposed Guts as well. For the same reasons. I supported Poision Heal, to aid with CAP9's bulk, but, alas, it didn't win.

Recover + 3 Attacks... how many faster sweepers are there who can pull that off in OU...

Starmie
Latias

Both are Psychic types, meaning one STAB is next to useless. Neither has the massive HP of CAP9, with Starmie being somewhat frail as well. While Base 95 isn't groundbreaking, Recover and it's bulk will turn it into a sweeping tank. It's not hard to remove a faster pokemon from the other team, or spam Thunder Wave with Rotom, Body Slam with Jirachi, ect.

Base 95 speed isn's DREADFUL either. Lucario manages to be a threat with far less (Albeit, Extremespeed, but this thing could be getting STAB Sucker Punch, so that point is moot)

Collosoil gets 2 useful STABS, a large group of resists and immunities to abuse and a free switch-ins on status. (For AMC versions, and Guts to some degree)

My point is, Recover is too much on something with stats like this thing has.

Onto the new Contreversial List:

Moonlight/Morning Sun: Sandstorm may be popular, but I still oppose these moves. Sandstorm is popular, but not omnipresent. Especially when, instead of using T-Tar for Latias trapping, Collosoil will be used instead, due to AMC/Guts, and the fact he's the playtest CAP. In other words, common situations in playtesting would cause this to be 50% recovery, which is not what we want this thing to have.

Toxic: We try to stick to established patterns in CAP. Fire types don't get Ice moves, ect. So, it's either, this thing gets Toxic, or Collosoil gets NO TM's. Or we break every rule in the TM rulebook.

Heal Bell: As I mentioned before, I support this. Adding to my 'Stops the secondary on teammates, that may have already been inflicted', it also stops anything Collosoil picked up. Body Slam from Jirachi caused Paralysis? No problem! Also, I could see a set using Guts, to take advantage of, say, Toxic from Blissey, then ridding it when it no longer needs the power boost (Wall taken down, ect)

Fake Out I oppose, as it makes it easier for Collosoil to counter the few checks it seems to have.

Rock Polish I 100% oppose. No Guts sweeper has a speed boosting move, for good reason. Imagine Heracross, with better typeing, and bulk, but with +2 Speed. No, just no.

Roar I support, because it stops faster stat-ups, something this CAP cannot do right now.

Encore, however, I oppose, because Roar suits the CAP far better, does the same job, but is arguably not as risky. Last thing we want is CAP9 setting up a different pokemon to sweep, with all the the issues of 'This thing is going to sweep' that we are having now.

Just my opinions on Trick and Encore, which I want both to be allowed.

Trick: Allowed.

Why?

Trick is definitely one of the most common secondary effects in today’s metagame, as it’s clear with all of the Rotom-A, Latias, Jirachi, etc running around. By giving Colossoil Trick, not only will it be able to penetrate Trick users by holding a Choiced item itself and using Pursuit to down the Trickster (which most are weak to it), it can use it to stop users of secondary effects. Skarmory, Blissey, Celebi, Swampert... the list can go on, but all of these secondary effect users will generally always hate being crippled with a Choiced item. It doesn’t necessarily “stop” them from using secondary effects, it just hinders their ability to use them.

Encore: Allowed.

Why?

Encore is a pretty game-breaking move once used at the right time, as it can easily pull out a win for you; however, this is not why I want this to have Encore. The reason I feel that it should be allowed is because of the fact that secondary effect users should be more careful when they use their secondary effect moves. I mean, Celebi will be trapped into using something like Thunder Wave or Recover, disabling it from using Grass Knot, and will also force it to switch out to take heavy damage from Pursuit. This also helps with Rotom-A’s Thunderbolt, Blissey’s Thunder Wave, Cresselia’s Rest, etc. All of these previously mentioned threats will be nailed by a 80 base power Pursuit, because who would really want to stay in if they’re trapped into using a move that does nothing to Colossoil? This should have Encore, as it will help Colossoil stop secondary effect users quite effectively in conjunction with Pursuit.

Just wanted to say, if Fake Out were only seeing use on a Guts set, as some people here are suggesting, on the turn that Colossoil uses Fake Out, it also gets its health cut 12% by the Flare Orb it's holding. In some cases, that's nearly as much damage as Colossoil is dishing out that turn, depending on the target; which would pretty much make it a waste to use, especially if the target had Leftovers....so I don't really see Fake Out being useful except for revenge-killing, which prediction with Sucker Punch/Pursuit can accomplish just as well....so it certainly doesn't seem like it would hurt to Allow Fake Out if its effectiveness is minimal....

Apocalypse B-C said:

Just wanted to say, if Fake Out were only seeing use on a Guts set, as some people here are suggesting, on the turn that Colossoil uses Fake Out, it also gets its health cut 12% by the Flare Orb it's holding. In some cases, that's nearly as much damage as Colossoil is dishing out that turn, depending on the target; which would pretty much make it a waste to use, especially if the target had Leftovers....so I don't really see Fake Out being useful except for revenge-killing, which prediction with Sucker Punch/Pursuit can accomplish just as well....so it certainly doesn't seem like it would hurt to Allow Fake Out if its effectiveness is minimal....

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unless it isn't a switch-in, then its just using the turn to activate flame orb and taking no damage, while dealing marginal damage to the enemy.

Fuzznip said:

Trick: Allowed.

Why?

Trick is definitely one of the most common secondary effects in today’s metagame, as it’s clear with all of the Rotom-A, Latias, Jirachi, etc running around. By giving Colossoil Trick, not only will it be able to penetrate Trick users by holding a Choiced item itself and using Pursuit to down the Trickster (which most are weak to it), it can use it to stop users of secondary effects. Skarmory, Blissey, Celebi, Swampert... the list can go on, but all of these secondary effect users will generally always hate being crippled with a Choiced item. It doesn’t necessarily “stop” them from using secondary effects, it just hinders their ability to use them.

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Since when you need Trick to be a viable Choice user? Maybe I lost something, but Tyranitar, Metagross and Scizor are all great Choice users even without Trick (Ok, Metagross has it but almost no one uses Trick on a CB Metagross - and it was a very viable moveset even in D/P where it didn't have Trick). I fail to see why Trick would be so vital to CAP9's strategy when you already have a STAB Pursuit to boot. We really want to give CAP9 another chance to ruin it's only viable checks (like Skarmory and Hippowdon)?