Ancient Greeks (OU RMT)

[kingken77]

TEAM ANCIENT GREECE
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Well, I've made plenty of RMTs. All of those teams became unsuccessful due to the fact that I realized those teams sucked and would've kept changing over and over again. But, after extensive testing on a brand new team, I have made a team I figured you guys on these forums can't completely shred to pieces and make me feel like an idiot. So here is how I started making this team...

TEAM BUILDING PROCESS

...

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Well I decided to make a team by starting with pokemon sets that aren't as common in OU, thus unexpected. So I thought of a pokemon everyone expects to be defensive, and made it offensive. The perfect pokemon is Suicune.

Another pokemon who is usually defensive, but has excellent offensive capabilities is Zapdos, so it joined Suicune. Now I have two powerful special pokemon that will catch people completely off guard.

I realizeed I still, I need 1 more specially based pokemon. So I looked for the one of my favorite pokemon from the old school days. Gengar. With 130 base special attack, and 110 base speed, its good to see how one of my childhood favorites is actually decent. (I'm only 14, been playing pokemon since I was 4.)

So, I've got my three special pokemon, I need a good physical sweeper. Still remembering my good ol' days as a little kid, I remembered the Celebi: Voice of the Forest, there was this massive green spiky thing that was in a Dark Ball (it was pretty badass then too), and its name was Tyranitar.

This team looks pretty badass, but I need another physical sweeper, but this time to catch the opposing team off guard. One that's normally seen as mixed, or special is more common. The perfect pokemon came to mind, Infernape.

All I need is a lead now. But I don't want a sissy lead. I want something pretty badass, and hard hitting. But, it has to be physical. So I started thinking of some sluggers who kick everyones ass. It can also wreck havoc before the game even starts. The perfect pokemon came to mind, Machamp.

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AT A GLANCE

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WEAKNESS/RESISTANCE CHART

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IN DEPTH:

Best at Battles

Aristomache (Machamp) (M) @ Lum Berry

Ability: No Guard

EVs: 236 HP/248 Atk/8 Spd/16 SDef

Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

Dynamicpunch
Bullet Punch
Payback
Ice Punch

Aristomache means "Best at Battle" which could not be truer for Machamp. His massive attack and invested bulk make Machamp a great lead. Adamant because he's slow and always will be. Lum Berry to avoid status, such as sleep from Roserade and Smeargle or burn from a Rotom-A switch-in. The EVs provide extra bulk and excellent damage, I took 4 HP EVs and put them in Speed, just to fight other Machamp. No Guard is godly. Dynamicpunch for STAB and 100% confusion, so if a Gyarados tries to switch in on me, he'll take damage from the hit and be confused, allowing me to switch to Zapdos while it slaps himself in the face with his tail. Bullet Punch to finish off Focus Sashed Pokemon that survived a OHKO. Payback for ghosts, and due to Machamp being so slow, it pretty much always has 100 Base Power. Ice Punch for Grass, Ground, and Flying type leads, such as Roserade, Hippopowdon, or Aerodactyl. He stacks up against the the most common leads easily....

(taken from http://www.smogon.com/smog/ou_metagame_analysis )

Metagross and Azelf - Dynamicpunch as they SR and switch to Gengar as it explodes.

Infernape - Dynamicpunch it to death.

Jirachi - Dynamicpunch to confuse and then send out Gengar to find out if its scarfed, and then kill with HP Fire.

Aerodactyl - Ice Punch as it sets up rocks, then Bullet Punch for the kill.

Swampert - Dynamicpunch to confuse it, then send in Zapdos to HP Grass, and if it roars just attack with whoever comes out until he dies.

Bronzong - Dynamicpunch for confusion, switch to Gengar as it tries to explode or to HP Fire.

Tyranitar - They always switch, so I use payback to kill their spinblocker.

Heatran - Dynamicpunch.

Gengar - Payback.
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Overall, Machamp will always do an insanely large amount of damage to any team, prepared for him or not. This makes him an incredibly effective lead, and one hell of a guy. His name suits him very well. He's the best.

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Fierce Brightness

Charon (Zapdos) @ Life Orb

Ability: Pressure

EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk

Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)

Thunderbolt
Heat Wave
Hidden Power [Ice]
Roost

Charon means "Fierce Brighness" and that's all Zapdos is. Zapdos is normally seen as physically or specially defensive, due to its great typing. Then I noticed Zapdos' special attack was 125, so I figured I'd use the great defensive typing and abuse it as a special attacker. I went with a Timid Nature to tie with positive natured base 100, and due to the fact Zapdos does a good amount of damage without a positive nature. Life Orb is to increase damage, because Zapdos has no boosting moves on this set, so the extra Umph is greatly appreciated. The EVs are for maximum Special Attack and Speed, along with 1 more hit point for leftovers. Thunderbolt for STAB, which is more reliable and has more PP than Thunder. Heat Wave for steel, bug, grass, and ice types that try to come in on Zapdos and hurt me. HP Ice is for Dragon, Ground, and Flying types. Roost is to increase my stamina and allows me to PP stall certain opponents when neccessary by using Pressure. Zapdos normally is brought out early to counter anothers counter, but late game Zapdos can easily clean up after everyone with its speed and power, finishing off the opponenet with a storm of pain. Overall, Offensive Zapdos' Fierce Brightness is electricity and flame striking down my opponents one by one from the sky, which is very unexpected from the standard Defensive Zapdos.

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Glorious Strength

Cleisthenes (Infernape) (M) @ Life Orb

Ability: Blaze

EVs: 252 Atk/56 Def/200 Spd

Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

Swords Dance
Close Combat
Fire Punch
Stone Edge

Cleisthenes means "Glorious Strength" which is exactly what Infernape has. He is the suprise on the team due to the fact that his is most often seen as a lead, mixed sweeper, wallbreaker, or special sweeper. I chose "none of the above" and made him a physical sweeper. Jolly is to make him faster, due to 108 base speed being only slightly above average. Expert Belt to increase damage but without Life Orb residual damage. The EVs provide damage and speed, which is just what a sweeper needs. I went with Swords Dance to increase Infernape's damage immensely. 104 base is normally not sweeper material, so it definately needed a boost, even if it means that Infernape is given away when it uses Swords Dance, it is extremely neccessary. Close Combat is a massive STAB that will take a huge chunk out of everyone who doesn't resist it, before a Swords Dance and even more afterwards. Fire Punch is for STAB as well, providing coverage. It is used over Flare Blitz because after a Swords Dance, it nets the same OHKOs and doesn't add recoil. Stone Edge is for flying types, such as Gyrados, Dragonite, Zapdos, etc. that come in on Infernape and try to net an easy kill. I save Infernape until late game to suprise the opponent and perform the same job Zapdos was, but on a physically based side. It works well with Gengar and Zapdos, who can come in on Ground attacks, Suicune who can come in on water attacks, and Tyranitar, who can come in on Psychic attacks. Overall, Infernape's least used set is definately effective, underrated, and will suprise any opponent because no one is prepared for it due to its lack of usage.

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The Darkness of Night

Orpheus (Gengar) (F) @ Life Orb

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk

Naive nature (+Spd, -Atk)

Explosion
Shadow Ball
Focus Blast
Hidden Power [Fire]

Orpheus means "The Darkness of Night", which definately suits Gengar. I went with Timid to increase Gengar's speed, because, like Zapdos, it does a massive amount of damage without a boosting nature. Levitate allows me to switch into Ground type attacks hurled at Infernape, and ghost typing lets me absorb Explosions aimed at Machamp. The EVs provide speed and power, which Gengar already has. Explosion is to deal with pokemon that have gotten a few boosts, or Blissey that wants to mess with me. Shadow Ball is for STAB, and as a bonus it occasionally drops Special Defence. Focus Blast provides neutral type coverage with Shadow Ball, and allows me to finish off weakened Blissey, along with take out the likes of Tyranitar. HP Fire lets me kill Scizor, Metagross, and Forretress, mainly Scizor because it can Pursuit, while Metagross can Zen Headbutt. This set has been much more successful than the Substitute Special set, due to Protect and a Life Orb being more effective than Substitute and Leftovers, providing more damage yet the same effect; along with being less expected due to its lower use. Gengar has excellent synergy with all the Physical pokemon, Machamp can take out Blissey and Snorlax, while Gengar can take explosions. Infernape can switch out to Gengar, preventing a ground-type attack. Yet, all 3 of those pokemon are weak to psychic attacks, but Tyranitar is immune to psychic, thus the 4 work together harmoniously. Zapdos can do the same thing Gengar does for Infernape, while Suicune can take psychics easily if Tyranitar is down, due to its natural bulk. Overall, Gengar is great and takes out a large number of the metagame, along with synergizing with the rest of the team. Thus, Gengar is a beast, and she is a valuable member of the team.

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Terror

Deimos (Tyranitar) (M) @ Babiri Berry

Ability: Sand Stream

EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd

Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

Dragon Dance
Stone Edge
Crunch
Fire Punch

Deimos is "Terror", the perfect name for Tyranitar. Jolly to outpace Azelf and Starmie after a DD, and Babiri Berry to prevent me from being easily revenge killed. The EVs provide power and speed, further making Dragon Dance useful. This is the standard Dragon Dance set, which is incredibly uncommon compared to to popular ScarfTar and BandTar, which makes this unexpected. The strategy is I easily come in on a pokemon ScarfTar would handle (except with Pursuit) and Dragon Dance. From there I outpace Starmie and slower, as long as it isn't scarfed. Dragon Dance perfects a Tyranitar, increasing its massive attack, and making up for its lackluster speed. Stone Edge and Crunch provide powerful STABs, before and after I can get a Dragon Dance. Fire Punch allows me to take out Scizors and other steel types, with a super effective attack, which comes after my Babiri Berry saves my ass. TTar can take all the Psychic attacks thrown at Machamp, Infernape, and Gengar. It can also take Rock attacks hurled at Zapdos. Gengar can come in on Fighting attacks, Zapdos can take fighting and grass attacks, Infernape can take grass attacks, and Suicune can take water attacks hurled at Tyranitar. Overall, he's not the tyrant pokemon for nothing, and he fits excellent with this team, making him perfect, even though sand storm hurts everyone on my team. (Sand Stream let me down for the first time on a team...)

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Of the Sea

Zale (Suicune) @ Leftovers

Ability: Pressure

EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk

Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)

Calm Mind
Surf
Ice Beam
Hidden Power [Electric]

Zale is "Of the Sea" in Greek, I couldn't find a name for rain, but (loophole) rainstorms are often formed over the sea, due to evaporation filling the clouds with water and thus creating storms (6th grade science wasn't useless! Yay pokemon!). Suicune isn't often seen, but when it is, almost none of them are offensive (less than 10%). Whether itd be a tank, a shuffler, or restalking version of either of those, thus, mine will be completely unexpected. Timid increase Speed, because Calm Mind increases my Special Attack. Leftovers increases Suicune's natural bulk. Calm Mind is neccessary on all Suicune sets, to either increase his bulk or power, its commonly for bulk, so the power boost reliance will not be nearly as expected. Since all Suicune's are almost always defensive and start with Calm Mind, most pokemon will be caught off guard when I hit back so hard. Surf is for STAB, and is only resisted by Water, Dragon, and Grass. Ice Beam hits Grass types and Dragons for super effective damage, while HP Electric hits Water types that try to resist Surf, thus the moveset provides neutral type coverage on all types. Synergetic, Suicune can switch out to Gengar, Zapdos, or Infernape for grass attacks, but will require to try and Calm Mind up the defence for electric attacks, which works quite well if I can get 2 or more up.

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Thank you for Reading!

Xx Threat list located below xX

[kingken77]

Threat List
RED = Dangerous
Orange = Potentially Dangerous
Scizor: Well, Zapdos can come in on a 2x resist to Bullet Punch, and then Heat Wave next turn. Infernape can use Fire Punch, Gengar can scout Pursuit with Protect, and use HP Fire for the OHKO, then, if necessary, Tyranitar can use his Babiri Berry and Fire Punch for the kill.
Heatran: This one is easy. I can Dynamicpunch with Machamp if its a lead, and if not, I can easily switch into one of its attacks depending on which pokemon is in play. Gengar is the safest bet, because it can scout with protect and then switch accordingly. If its a sub varient, then Machamp, Infernape, Gengar, and Suicune all have super effective moves on it, and suicune can get enough Calm Minds to prevent it from doing anything, and if it tries to explode I can switch to gengar and get a free kill.
Gyarados: Zapdos outspeeds and TBolts, if it comes in on Machamp, it can Dynamicpunch, on Infernape or Tyranitar, it can Stone Edge, then switch to a counter of whatever comes next.
Rotom-A: Infernape to absorb the WoW, Suicune handle this better because it can get Calm minds up to not take much from a Tbolt or Discharge, and a burn is the least harmful status to Suicune. Most come in on Machamp, and it can payback, and Gengar can Shadow Ball. TTar can Crunch if necessary, but risks a burn.
Tyranitar: Machamp, Infernape, and Suicune can all easily counter it. With Fighting, Water, or Grass type moves. It will probably come in on Gengar and try and pursuit, which can be scouted, then Focus Blasted away with a OHKO.
Metagross: If its a lead, Machamp DPunchs and then switches to Gengar who will take the boom easily. If not, Zapdos can Heat Wave and Gengar can HP Fire, Infernape and Tyranitar can Fire Punch, but its defence is much higher than special defence, thus making it a Plan B choice.
Lucario: See Metagross, and add Machamp's Dynamicpunch, Infernapes Close Combat, and drop the Plan B thing.
Infernape: Suicune is the best counter, but Gengar can come in on a fighting attack, then easily OHKO with Shadow Ball.
Jirachi: See Lucario. TTar can revenge kill (if it doesnt flinch) and Dragon Dance, thus outspeeding it then Fire Punch for the kill.
Gengar: Gengar can handle, it will most likely be a speed tie. If not, Machamp can Paybacck and TTar can Crunch, if Suicune can get CMs up, it will take minimal damage and surf it down.
Swampert: Suicune is the best counter, due to HP Grass, but it needs CMs up to OHKO it. If it is a shuffling version, it will do slight damage to my whole team before dying, thus making it annoying.
Blissey: Just used as set up bait for TTar or Infernape, and Machamp can OHKO it easily if he's left, because he is EVd to outspeed no investment Blissey. Gengar can revenge kill it if neccesary and Focus Blast it, but only as a last resort.
Azelf: As a lead, Machamp Paybacks, then switches to Gengar for the Explosion and Gengar scouts from there. If it comes in later, Gengar is my best bet, but +1 TTar outspeeds and OHKOs with Crunch.
Starmie: As a lead, Machamp Paybacks for the OHKO, Bullet Punch if its sashed for the kill. If it comes in later, Gengar is my best bet, but +1 TTar outspeeds and OHKOs with Crunch. Suicune and Zapdos can kill with HP Grass and Tbolt respectively.
Gliscor: Zapdos HP Ice is a OHKO, along with Suicune's Ice Beam.
Vaporeon: Suicune and Zapdos can kill with HP Grass and Tbolt respectively.
Magnezone: Machamps Dynamicpunch, Zapdos Heat Wave, Infernape Close Combat and Fire Punch, Gengar HP Fire and Focus Blast, TTar can Fire Punch. I have no steels.
Zapdos: Machamp Ice Punch, Zapdos Tbolt, Infernape and TTar Stone Edge, they all do a good amount of damage.
Machamp: My Machamp outspeeds it, Zapdos resists its STAB, but is weak to Stone Edge. Infernape can revenge kill with Close Combat.
Kingdra: Suicune can Ice Beam, and Zapdos can HP Ice, but if it has Draco Meteor and a Rain boost, it'll hurt before it dies.
Breloom: Ice Punch on Machamp who has a Lum Berry for sleep, Gengar is immune to Focus Punch and resists Seed Bomb, making it the safest choice and can KO it with HP Fire. HP Ice and Heat Wave on Zapdos, Infernape and TTar Fire Punch (no TTar if behind a sub) and Suicune can Ice Beam.
Skarmory: Zapdos, nuff said.
Bronzong: All my fire attacks, its getting too redundant for every steel type. Just look up.
Celebi: See Bronzong. Gengar is the best, but TTar can handle it too. Zapdos is safe too, because it can Heat Wave or HP Ice, along with resisting Leaf Storm.
Flygon: HP Ice on Zapdos for the Speed Tie, Suicune can take an outrage hit Ice Beam. Another problem, but not a huge threat and its manageable.
Suicune: Zapdos is the safest bet. If its not Physically defensive, Nape can Close Combat or Machamp can Dynamicpunch it (not for long due to Pressure)
Jolteon: I dont have a pokemon to outspeed it, or a ground type to be immune to its attacks, my safest bet is have some CMs on Suicune and Surf back, I can survive a Max Special Attack, non-LO or Specs boosted TBolt without a CM. Otherwise its a bitch. Thank god it isnt too common.
Empoleon: See steels. Add Zapdos Tbolt.
Forretress: See Scizor, dont count the Pursuit part. Gengar can live through an Explosion.
Electivire: Slower version of Jolteon, but much easier to deal with. I just hit it with whatever I feel like but no true counter.
Togekiss: Ice Punch on Champ, Tbolt HP Ice on Zapdos, Stone Edge on TTar and Nape, HP Ice on Suicune.
Weavile: Nape is best bet, Machamp is backup.
Aerodactyl: Machamp Ice Punches then Bullet Punches, it gets rocks up but I got my berry and my health.
Mamoswine: Machamp can Dynamicpunch, Gengar takes damage from
Snorlax: Its a Blissey, but not pink and gay. Its still handled the same way.
Dusknoir: Gengar is safest, I can Payback on Machamp but risk getting WoWd.
Smeargle: Dynamicpunch and BP for the kill if its a lead, if not, just use Nape or Gengar to take it down.
Ninjask: Its a fast, frail steel type to this team. Read above.
Tentacruel: Zapdos handles it easily.
Dragonite: Ice Punch if its a lead, Zapdos is faster and can HP ice it, Gengar is immune to extremespeed and then Shadow Ball for the 2HKO, Suicune can Ice Beam. Nape and TTar can use Stone Edge.
Hippowdon: Suicune is the safest, all its attacks are Super Effective, if it shuffles, itll need to be worn down just like Swampert, but it is much easier to deal with.
Roserade: As a lead, Lum Berry absorbs sleep, Ice punch destroys sash and then I can BP.
Porygon-Z: All my fighting types. Nape is faster, thus its the safest.
Cresselia: TTar will rape it with Crunch, and Gengar can Shadow Ball too! Machamp can also Payback it.
Heracross: Zapdos is safest counter, cause Heat Wave can OHKO it and its outsped if not scarfed. Gengar can scout the scarf.
Umbreon: Machamp and Infernape. Dynamicpunch and Close Combat. Gengar can Focus Blast, but rists a Payback.
Alakazam: TTar will rape it. Suicune can wall it. Nuff said? Its UU anyway, idk why it is on this threat list I got.

(Threat list will be changed later according to changes, but I got shit to do so i'll bbl and do that)

[BIG loven]

First off I think you should give Infernape the life orb over black belt. This way all his attacks will get a boost rather then just close combat. I do see a HUGE starmie problem, It could easily sweep you. Changing your ttar set to the scarf set would fix this. I also think you should use hidden power electric over grass because without it Gyrados can also sweep you after DD


Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Jolly
252 spe, 252 atk, 4 hp
-Pursuit
-Crunch
-Stone Edge
-Earthquake

You can lure it out with Suicune and have tar take the tbolt then trap him with pursuit for the KO

[kingken77]

TTar outspeeds after 1 DD, so no scarf set, which also screws my whole strategy and synergy with the rest of the team. After a Dragon Dance, it is like combining a Band and a Scarf, but without being locked into one move. The EXPERT Belt (black was a typo) is not being replaced with a Life Orb due to the fact that Infernape is frail enough as it is, and it will die from passive damage (LO Recoil, SS, maybe a toxic here and there) and damage from switching in on a move, before it can even be useful. Starmie can get raped by a +1 TTar. I need HP Grass on Suicune because otherwise, Swampert will wreck my team, and Suicune can use Ice Beam on Gyarados for good nuetral damage, while not leaving me exposed. Zapdos has TBolt and TTar and Infernape has Stone Edge to deal with Gyarados, who normally comes in on Physical sweepers by trying to force a switch with Intimidate.

[SourMilk]

On a team full of sweepers, you'd think you'd need some stealth rock support, no? I guess you could try to replace Machamp for another lead that sets up rocks, except Machamp is pretty badass so I'm not sure. It just seems like stealth rock would be necessary to wear down lots of things and grab certain KOs.

[muffinhead]

hi kingken, im just going to say it right now: there are a lot of things wrong with this team. first off, half of your team is special and half is physical, so a well played combo of SkarmBliss runs all over this whole team.
lets start with items: expert belt only increases super effective moves, and only by 20%. LIFE ORB increases all moves that you use by 30%, at the cost of only 10% life. this being said, i strongly recommend you change your infernape to

Infernape @ Life orb, Naive
252 spec atk/ 252 speed/ 6 atk
Nasty Plot | Fire Blast | Grass Knot | Close Combat

This set is still not as common as you might think, but much more effective on this team and can handle SkarmBliss/Stall much easier. GK can help you win against Swampert, which brings me to my next point. YOU NEED LIFE ORB AND HP GRASS ON ZAPDOS. It is a necessity. The only match-up you will lose is to flygon. You still guarantee the 2HKO on dragonite with Thunderbolt. Swampert can wreak havoc on your team too, so HP grass is absolutely necessary.

Your Gengar's set seems a little out of place, MYSTICgar is only useful when paired with magnezone (otherwise Bullet Punch will beat you). Therefore, since you like the LO set a lot, i recommend

Gengar @ Life Orb, Naive
Shadow Ball | Focus Blast | Hidden Power [fire] | Explosion
This set can also defeat non-scarf Tyranitars and Scizors that try and Pursuit you. Again, Blissey could come in and threaten you, and Bulkier Gyarados can cause problems. That is why i would use Explosion, clearing the way for an easy revenge kill on those two pokemon.

My main problem with this team is every single pokemon seems to be pulling off a sweep single-handedly. this does not work. that is why i STRONGLY recommend changing/ getting rid of Tyranitar. Starmie is ridiculously threatening to your team. Ttar only outspeeds if 1) it has at least one Dragon Dance AND 2)Starmie is not scarfed. For example: Starmie (NonChoice Attacker) versus

Ice beam v. Zapdos: 76.6% - 90.3% (guaranteed OHKO with SR)
Hydro Pump v. Infernape: 191.1% - 225.9%
Hydro Pump v. Gengar: 103.8% - 122.2%
Hydro Pump v. Tyranitar: 123.4% - 146.2%
Thunderbolt v. Suicune: 58.5% - 69% (guaranteed 2HKO)

This is why Scarfed Tyranitar is extremely important to your team. Little Loven had a great set, please test it out.

Next up, Suicune. Again i am worried that you have no Stealth Rock/ supporting pokemon, but if you really want offensive then you MUST HAVE HP [ELECTRIC]. Choice band Gyarados mows down your entire team, and water + electric + ice type moves are only resisted by Shedinja and Lanturn.

I think this team need Stealth Rock much more than an Anti-lead pokemon, but today everyone and their brother has Azelf/ Aerodactyl/ Swampert blah blah blah. do what you want, other than that this team has a lot of potential.
gl hf :D

[kingken77]

Sourmilk: Machamp does much more than SR does because it can take out their lead, then come back in and force switches with confusion, and they get switched into other powerful attacks. I normally take out a pokemon or 2 (I got 5 one time XD) with Machamp, which puts me at a huge advantage because 6>5 and 6>4, which I find more useful than just doing a slight amount of damage to every pokemon, and a lot of teams have a spinner, so I waste a whole slot for their team, while taking out their lead. Machamp as an anti lead is more more effective then some pointed stones that float around.

Muffinhead: I told you yesterday I'd be testing LO on Infernape, lol. Zapdos has Leftovers to fake a defensive set, and then hit back much harder than a defensive varient would. It does plenty of damage without a life orb. HP Ice on Zapdos is how I deal with Gliscor switch-ins (which are frequent, and then they BP a rock polish or a swords dance and I'm screwed) and Flygons, along with Dnites, and all those other pokemon.
Starmie: As a lead, Machamp Paybacks for the OHKO, Bullet Punch if its sashed for the kill. If it comes in later, Gengar is my best bet, but +1 TTar outspeeds and OHKOs with Crunch. Suicune and Zapdos can kill with HP Grass and Tbolt respectively.
^ Read that. ^

TTar outspeeds after 1 DD, so no scarf set, which also screws my whole strategy and synergy with the rest of the team. After a Dragon Dance, it is like combining a Band and a Scarf, but without being locked into one move.

HP Grass is my only Pert counter, who would otherwise be a huge threat to this team.

Read the thing above I said aboutt machamp > SR.

I've repeated myself now, so just read my other reply.

[Grayheart]

If you don't change Infernape to the mixed set, I suggest for the physical set to take out some Speed EVs for Defense or HP. The reason being, that no other Pokemon has base 108 Speed, and most other Infernape run only 192 Speed. So I suggest either going 200 Speed and 56 HP/Def or dropping down to an amount of Speed that outspeeds +nature 100 speeds. This way you'll have more durability vs. Scizor's Bullet Punch, which WILL try to revenge you more often than not if your Infernape gets sweeping.

Also, scrap the Expert Belt. Think of this: Most things that take super effective from Fire or Fighting won't stay in, right? And if the opponent is forced to have them out, the attack will usually KO regardless. So I would use a Black Belt to further Close Combat's power, since it's your main attack. After a Swords Dance the rest of your attacks will kill what they need to, and without a Swords Dance the only attack that might not kill things w/o an Expert Belt, mainly Gyarados, you don't want to stay in on anyways.

On Suicune, I support HP Elec over HP Grass. Swampert will be pounded hard enough by a +1 Surf, a surprise HP Elec isn't worth it. Gyarados is a larger threat than Swmapert, and the neutral coverage, as said is more worth it. In turn, if you do this, put HP Grass on Zapdos so he can take Swampert for you. Also, Idk about others, but when I see a Zapdos, I never debate in my mind if its defensive or offensive..I see it as threatening either way and think I have to kill that thing..so using a more offensive oriented item would be better, imo. On a Zapdos anyways.

Also Choice sets do have an advantage over setup sets..on setup, sure you're not locked, but you just used a turn, which is a wasted turn if they have a threatening counter. With a choiced set you pound them on their way in, THEN you can run away. Otherwise their counter comes away damage free (ESPECIALLY on this team w/o SR) and can continue to threaten as much as it wants.

Just some foods for thought.

[kingken77]

Well thank you for the speed information, I knew it was a unique speed stat but I didn't know what to change it to. I am still testing LO over Expert Belt, as I mentioned in every response. The problem is, people who aren't retarded know that Suicune usually tries to set up on its first turn, so Swampert will Roar before I get to +1, thus wasting a turn. I used to have HP Grass on Zapdos and HP Electric on Suicune, but the HPs I have on them now are much more effective, even though everyone is repeating their drawbacks.

On the DD vs. Choice TTar, DD TTar will not be switching out for a counter, which most are Steels and I have a Babiri Berry and Fire Punch, which means I wont lose a turn, while if it was Choiced, I would lose a turn switching, and they know I'd have to switch so they could easily predict a counter and take out on of my pokemon.

[muffinhead]

Hey this is from my itouch so idk how long I can stand to type.

Do not try to fake defensive zapdos, because swamperts still come in on you. Hp grass gives outstanding coverage, and you DONT want to switch in zapdos (minus 25%), they send in swampert on any attack, then you switch to suicune( then your zapdos will only have 50% health left). Hp electric on cune gives that good old BoltBeam combo ( again, better coverage).

And also starmie does run through your team. Your opponent will probably be able to counter a +1 tyranitar. So if they bring out starmie before your Ttar, it's game..... Neither gengar nor zapdos outspeeds starmie. Choice scarf ttar is worth testing for something that goes through 5/6 of your team (if machamp is already fainted/weakened.) starmie has risen to the 8th most used pokemon, so no updating your team for that could pretty much end any chance of winning consistently. Saying that a threat gets raped by a pokemon that needs set-up to rape is not rape. You need a starmie counter, and scafttar helps out and fits on your team.

Also I reeeeeally recommend the gengar set I posted, mysticgar will not help you unless you have magnezone and you don't.

[Qijun]

>Starmie: As a lead, Machamp Paybacks for the OHKO, Bullet Punch if its sashed for the kill. If it comes in later, Gengar is my best bet, but +1 TTar outspeeds and OHKOs with Crunch. Suicune and Zapdos can kill with HP Grass and Tbolt respectively.
^ Read that. ^

TTar outspeeds after 1 DD, so no scarf set, which also screws my whole strategy and synergy with the rest of the team. After a Dragon Dance, it is like combining a Band and a Scarf, but without being locked into one move.


Any veteran player will not keep a lead starmie on your machamp. If it comes in latter, Gengar is your best bet, and pathetically, its outsped and killed. Meaning that even your best bet is pretty pathetic. Zapdos is outsped and Ohko'd. While Suicune's hp grass will not OHKO the starmie, Starmie will outspeed and 2HKO you first. Ttar outspeeding starmie after a dd only makes sure it can't revenge you, and can NOT be counted as a way to deal with starmie.
Therefore, to better counter starmie Scarftar is much better.

Also, if a gyarados gets up a dd, your team is not going to have fun. Your best bet is Suicune, who can't do much due to the lack of hp electric. IMO, listen to the other peoples' advice and change hp ice on zapdos to grass to deal with swampert better, as it can't do much to suicune either with or without hp grass. And with hp grass, it still has great coverage and thunderbolt does alot of damage to dnite anyways.

[VulcanFenrir]

Well let me start off by saying I love the theme, as you can tell my name is from Greek (Well Roman, but only cuz of the cooler name) Mythology and other mythology, but I'm going to focus on the rate.

1. Starmie, like already said before, kills your whole team. I hate DDTar already so I'm already going to disapprove of it, but since you already have a set up pokemon (Infernape), I can't say that Scarfing it will ruin sweeping abilities, seeing as you have no wall (I guess suicune?) and all pokemon are offensive. ScarfTar works well and while DD is like a Band and Scarf in one, a Scarf is a turn where you can predict a counter to TTar and use a damaging move to actually do something on the switch.

2. Get a Spinner please. Infernape AND Zapdos take 25% on the switch, that means everytime they are Checked/Counter'd they've just lost 25% on their health, combine that with a Non Defensive Zapdos and a frail Infernape and you get 2 pokemon that die fast. On top of that Gengar is frail as well and HP is somewhat important to him considering he dies to quite some things. I would suggest replacing Suicune with Tentacruel or Starmie. Tentacruel can use T Spikes for extra status, since you have no status moves at all, and the added damage can act as semi SR to help with OHKO's. However this does leave you vulnerable to ground on 3 pokemon, but an obvious ground move can be a free switch in on Gengar or Zapdos, so it's not necessarily a bad thing. But this is your choice as it's your team, but having an SR weak team while running TTar which has perma SS can wear down your entire team fast, and since you should be running LO on Infernape and Zapdos it just hurts even more.

3. I see nothing that Machamp provides for you. You have now killed the enemy lead, congrats, but they got SR up with hurts your team a lot because of the HUGE amount of residual damage you inflict upon yourself. You can always run a taunt lead, or my personal favorite Screen Uxie. Screens allow for easy set ups and protect from quite a few things, such as stopping regular OHKOs. But either way, you need a lead with Taunt and if possible SR, although I'm not going to suggest Aero just because I hate it. But seriously you need it, like I said before this team has tons of residual damage and is SR weak/frail.

4. I really see nothing that Tyranitar does for this team. It provides no useful resistances and doesn't help much of the already frail team to switch in (Zapdos is semi bulky, but since it's weak to SR and has SS going it's already at 69% when you switch in). I know that he is a good sweeper, because I've used him before, but in this situation he really does nothing. I would recommend switching him for Agility Metagross/Agility Lucario/Swords Dance Lucario, although Metagross is my favorite and it's not as frail. Metagross comes with only 2 weakness' which is resisted by 2 and immune by 2. It hits hard and due to it's high speed it easily outspeeds all but Choice Scarf Starmie who only hits Meta for 54.1% - 64.1% (Imagine if that's behind a screen), while Gross hits back for 105% - 124.1% with Thunderpunch, a guaranteed OHKO on a pretty big problem on your team, and this can kill it even without the Agility so it can be considered a check/counter.

5. Lastly, I just want to say that while I am saying to replace 3 members, I'm really only supporting 2. You NEED a new lead, without a doubt someone that can taunt, as your team is incredibly weak to SR and Frail. The other is Metagross, SS wears down your team way too much for you to get a boost from it and doesn't do much for the team, as the extra damage usually translate to Leftovers negation and leaves your team taking the damage.

Tentacruel is only a suggestion for the SR weakness because it could leave you not replacing your lead, and protect your other members while setting up Entries of your own. It also can counter SubSeed variations to a point which can be decently helpful.

I like your team but I seriously think that it needs some cleaning up before it can perform to it's maximum potential.

[davud363000]

Originally Posted by Fat kingken77

Alakazam: TTar will rape it. Suicune can wall it. Nuff said? Its UU anyway, idk why it is on this threat list I got.

Not saying that Alakazam is a threat to your team with its low usage stats, but really, that thing is guaranteed a kill just by throwing down a sub as you switch your machamp. Zam is faster than your DD tar after a boost and will blast it with its focus for an OHKO 70% of the time. All your other pokes are OHKO/2HKO's too with the sub-3 attack set on smogon.
Anyways, Zam just needs more love
EDIT: Calcs
Zam Psychic on Suicune:50.9% - 59.9% 2HKO after rocks and Lefties
Zam Focus Blast on Tar 138% - 162.6%, and +1 DD tar is slower than timid Zam

[Zach]

Use Hidden Power Electric on Suicune. Swampert is hit hard enough by STAB Surf and hitting Gyarados is more important.

[kingken77]

Alright, I'll replace Tyranitar with something to counter Gyarados and Starmie, but the only thing that comes to mind is Jolteon, but I already have Zapdos, so I'll need help on that. (I'm trying to avoid Choice users.)

Ill switch the HPs on Zapdos and Suicune.

Ill use the set Explosive set for Gengar, cause Protect hasnt done shit since my CRE went up. (I still dont get why Protect needs to be paired with Magnezone though.)

Zapdos is the only pokemon weak to SR, Infernape has fighting too, so it takes nuetral damage. Machamp has been useful, but its the same thing as Gengar, it's not doing as well as my CRE goes up.

Life Orb is going on Zapdos

[VulcanFenrir]

Originally Posted by Fat kingken77

Alright, I'll replace Tyranitar with something to counter Gyarados and Starmie, but the only thing that comes to mind is Jolteon, but I already have Zapdos, so I'll need help on that. (I'm trying to avoid Choice users.)

Ill switch the HPs on Zapdos and Suicune.

Ill use the set Explosive set for Gengar, cause Protect hasnt done shit since my CRE went up. (I still dont get why Protect needs to be paired with Magnezone though.)

Zapdos is the only pokemon weak to SR, Infernape has fighting too, so it takes nuetral damage. Machamp has been useful, but its the same thing as Gengar, it's not doing as well as my CRE goes up.

Life Orb is going on Zapdos

Ya I'm a noob lol can't believe I forgot about fighting's resist. Still Infernape is severely frail and I'm glad you are replacing TTar, since you want something to deal with GDos and Starmie, maybe Rotom-A? Rotom-A OHKOs Starmie it's ovensive and does 92.7% - 110.3% if Defensive with Thunderbolt, which furthers a need for SR. The Defensive one also stops Rapid Spin set (Although they can't spin anything unless you have SR) since it's ghost, but like I mentioned that doesn't help all that much. Starmie's Hydro Pump does 66.1% - 78% to Rotom, so you would have to revenge it which I can't say is the best but I don't want to switch it up too much. Rotom can also W-o-W Gyarados and have it crippled plus thunderbolt OHKOs so it's basically handled, but the problem here is that Gyarados is still guaranteed that 2HKO against Rotom, meaning that Rotom only acts as Checks for the problems your team has.

Defensive Celebi works on any Gyarados not carrying Bounce but gets 2HKO'd by Starmie (LO) Ice Beam. Ultimately I don't know if there is a counter for both Gyarados and Starmie without the pokemon being scarfed, but a Scarf'd Porygon-Z could work. I know it's BL but it outspeds Gyarados after Dragon Dance, and outspeeds Starmie, but will probably die on the switch to Hydro Pump from Starmie. Other then that you could run Jolteon but you already said something about him and Zapdos, however his only weakness is Ground and 2 pokemon are immune to that. It doesn't have the same weaknesses as Zapdos, but they are both using SpA STAB Thunderbolts so I could see the problem there and Jolteon would need to be scarf'd so he can switch in to Hydro Pump from ScarfMie and be able to OHKO it, although he also has a chance to be killed if SR is up on the switch.

All in all the Gyarados and Starmie problem seem like something that needs more then one poke to counter but from what I can tell Jolteon is your best bet.

[kingken77]

Well, I usually try to keep 3 physical and 3 special pokemon on each team, so I could use Jolteon to replace Zapdos and then get a physical pokemon that could use good coverage and typing like Zapdos had. I still need lead suggestions though, but I'll try running Jolteon over Zapdos and see where that leads me, but I need a TTar replacement, right now I'm thinking either Metagross, Mamoswine, Weavile, or Scizor.

Suggestions for TTar replacement?
Rotom-a over Gengar and Zapdos/Jolteon?
Jolteon over Zapdos?

Any arguments for either would be great!

[kingken77]

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, or a new idea would be cool too if it still retains synergy and doesnt add a major weakness to the team, the problem is that more thaan 1 pokemon is being replaced, so reply with suggestions like this

Tyranitar Replacement: [Set] Pokemon; explanation why.
Starmie Counter: [Set] Pokemon; explanation why. Who is being replaced and why?
DD Gyarados Counter : [Seet] Pokemon; explanation why. Who is being replaced and why?

I know this seems like I'm rebuilding this whole team, but if it improves it, I guess its worth looking up new names :P.