Really though, Glaceon can put snow cloak to abuse. I remember when running a hail team before that my cleric glaceon was quite difficult to kill due to high defenses + wish + snow cloak. And beartic while seemingly a joke, is so strong that missing him would possibly prove fatal. But realistically, who uses beartic in UU in the first place? Not a valid argument saying it limits him. And glaceon can legitly use snow cloak in her favor, so it's not like she is harmless in hail with it.
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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
- Start date
- Status
The situation regarding togekiss and Jirachi against snow cloak frosslass are very different. Togekiss and Jirachi can be viably outsped and OHKO'ed with the apppropriate move, Earthquake/overheat etc wreck Jirachi and stuff like thunderbolt/Wild charge can destroy togekiss.
However with frosslass it is different. You have too LAND THE ATTACK for it too die, this is the issue with snow cloak in hail, same as garchomp in OU. Ice beam wrecks garchomps face all day long, however it has to hit first. You are using a sure fire counter, but thanks too the evasion boost if you miss you're boned. The same applies tooo frosslass. if you miss, you get paralysed, it sets up a sub and now you have a 25% chance of moving and an 80% chance of hitting. It is essentially taking the skill out of Pokemon. Congratulations trainer, your scarf typhlosion does indeed outspeed and OHKO this frosslass. However due too your poor ass luck you will not win this 1 vs 1 thanks too the 20% miss rate I have induced, yours sincerly Snow Cloak.
However with frosslass it is different. You have too LAND THE ATTACK for it too die, this is the issue with snow cloak in hail, same as garchomp in OU. Ice beam wrecks garchomps face all day long, however it has to hit first. You are using a sure fire counter, but thanks too the evasion boost if you miss you're boned. The same applies tooo frosslass. if you miss, you get paralysed, it sets up a sub and now you have a 25% chance of moving and an 80% chance of hitting. It is essentially taking the skill out of Pokemon. Congratulations trainer, your scarf typhlosion does indeed outspeed and OHKO this frosslass. However due too your poor ass luck you will not win this 1 vs 1 thanks too the 20% miss rate I have induced, yours sincerly Snow Cloak.
Pardon? Why are you assuming that this would affect all metagames? I just want to ban Snow Cloak/Sand Veil in UU based on the fact that it very clearly breaks evasion clause. If OU decides to follow suit, that's fine, but it's certainly not required that they do so - our suspect tests are only relevant to our metagame (and those below ours I guess).
There was already a Policy Review thread, and it was explicitly stated that if we wanted to ban the abilities, we should use the suspect process to do so.
Swift Swim on Luvdisc, Huntail, Beartic, or Armaldo wouldn't be broken either, in Drizzle.
Regarding the comparison between Snow Cloak and Serene Grace: While both of those introduce elements of luck into the game, the flinch effect of Serene Grace is contingent on far more factors (such as using certain moves, being faster, etc) than Snow Cloak/Sand Veil. That is, all you need to take advantage of Snow Cloak is to have an Abomasnow on your team, whereas Togekiss needs paralysis support and proper play to even be remotely in a position where it can abuse its ability. Moreover, Snow Cloak is pretty blatantly covered under one of our existing clauses already; there is no flinch clause, to my knowledge. These two factors make the comparison inaccurate.
Regarding Snow Warning/Snow Cloak complex ban: A complex ban would have advantages (in that it wouldn't softban Froslass or cripple Mamoswine), but Jabba has already mentioned that he would prefer not to have any complex bans, and I more or less agree with him on principle. That said, a complex ban would certainly seem to solve some of the negative impacts associated with banning just Snow Cloak.
it's cool how the classic rade/venu set still works extremely well
Roserade @ Life Orb
Timid, 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
-Sludge Bomb
-Leaf Storm
-Sleep Powder
-Synthesis
new sleep mechanics are a godsend against shit like Registeel that would normally bum off a turn each time it comes in, but now you essentially have a free turn to do whatever and bring in your cb heracross or whatever for free. also everybody expects defensive rade now, so all those fire-types get spanked by sludge bomb and stuff like nidoking/rotom-h don't expect to be outsped
Roserade @ Life Orb
Timid, 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
-Sludge Bomb
-Leaf Storm
-Sleep Powder
-Synthesis
new sleep mechanics are a godsend against shit like Registeel that would normally bum off a turn each time it comes in, but now you essentially have a free turn to do whatever and bring in your cb heracross or whatever for free. also everybody expects defensive rade now, so all those fire-types get spanked by sludge bomb and stuff like nidoking/rotom-h don't expect to be outsped
Maybe its just me but I haven't seen much that would convince me that Froslass's annoyance set is better than Togekiss to the point one should be banned and the other left alone.Almost everything people have said against the Serene Grace users apply to Froslass as well.So lets do a quick side by side.
Togekiss
Base Stats = 85/50/95/120/115/80
Typing = 2 Immunities/2 Resists/3 Weaknesses
Stealth Rock Weak/Immune to both Spikes
Completely Self Reliant
Reliable Healing
Froslass
Base Stats= 70/80/70/80/70/110
Typing= 2 Immunities/3 Resists/5 Weaknesses
Vulnerable to all hazards
Needs a secondary Poke (Snover/Abomasnow) to get extra boost
No Healing
Can set up hazards and spin block
Now if you look at the basic stats you see that Togekiss is superior in every way except speed and that is partially mitigated by TWave.So stat wise Togekiss>Froslass.Now lets look at their ideal hax situations.
Froslass = Perma Hail Up, Opponent Paralyzed
Chance to hit with a 100% move = .80 acc x .75 chance to attack through para = 0.60 chance to land attack
Togekiss = Opponent Paralyzed, Attack With Air Slash
Chance to hit = Credit to blarajan
There is a 57% chance to flinch (.95 * .6).
There is a 25% chance of full paralysis occurring.
The odds of your opponent moving is .75 * .43 = .3225 or 32.25%.
Accordingly, you have a 67.75% chance of not being hit, or roughly 2/3.
So Togekiss gets hit roughly 32% of the time in ideal circumstances while Froslass is hit 60% of the time.Togekiss is also bulkier, has healing in Wish/Roost and even Heal Bell/Sub for status, and has a smaller entry hazard weakness.
So the annoying miss part is done way better by a different Poke that hasn't even gotten a mention for suspect.What else is there?Spikes?Okay.Froslass does have that unique role of Spike Stacker + Spin Blocker.
There really isn't to much of a difference though in Froslass setting up spikes compared to Deo-D or Roserade.Froslass relies on a few misses to get Spikes set up since it will die to a strong hit.Deoxys and Roserade tank hits and heal up while setting up their layers.If a Deoxys sets up 2-3 layers and Recovers up to full you are in the same position practically.A bulky ghost can be used along side these other Spikers as they do a better job at spin blocking since the won't take as much damgage against a strong hit like Donphan EQ on the predicted Froslass switch.
So its fast and has decent (key word decent) Sp.Atk to use STAB Blizzard.However it won't be sweeping and has to rely on Hail and some misses to wear down bulkier opponents.Frailer opponents of course have more of an issue as TWave will lower their speed/chances to hit while they will take more damage from the Blizzard.
Here's what I'm seeing.A Pokemon who is completely dependant on weather for Snow Veil/Blizzard to even work.This gives your team redundant weaknesses just between those 2.It is to frail to switch in often on damaging attacks that aren't resisted/immune and can't even switch on status (Toxic/Burn wear it down with Sub and Para reduces the good speed).Not to mention SR weak and vulnerable to both spikes.
So in conclusion it is a decent but not overly threatening attacker,great annoyer, and a nice Spike setter for Hail Teams only.Not seeing "BAN ME NOW" stamped on this one.
P.S. To those saying Snow Cloak/Sand Veil should be under evasion clause due only to principle, why isn't Tangled Feet on your list?Favoritism much.
Togekiss
Base Stats = 85/50/95/120/115/80
Typing = 2 Immunities/2 Resists/3 Weaknesses
Stealth Rock Weak/Immune to both Spikes
Completely Self Reliant
Reliable Healing
Froslass
Base Stats= 70/80/70/80/70/110
Typing= 2 Immunities/3 Resists/5 Weaknesses
Vulnerable to all hazards
Needs a secondary Poke (Snover/Abomasnow) to get extra boost
No Healing
Can set up hazards and spin block
Now if you look at the basic stats you see that Togekiss is superior in every way except speed and that is partially mitigated by TWave.So stat wise Togekiss>Froslass.Now lets look at their ideal hax situations.
Froslass = Perma Hail Up, Opponent Paralyzed
Chance to hit with a 100% move = .80 acc x .75 chance to attack through para = 0.60 chance to land attack
Togekiss = Opponent Paralyzed, Attack With Air Slash
Chance to hit = Credit to blarajan
There is a 57% chance to flinch (.95 * .6).
There is a 25% chance of full paralysis occurring.
The odds of your opponent moving is .75 * .43 = .3225 or 32.25%.
Accordingly, you have a 67.75% chance of not being hit, or roughly 2/3.
So Togekiss gets hit roughly 32% of the time in ideal circumstances while Froslass is hit 60% of the time.Togekiss is also bulkier, has healing in Wish/Roost and even Heal Bell/Sub for status, and has a smaller entry hazard weakness.
So the annoying miss part is done way better by a different Poke that hasn't even gotten a mention for suspect.What else is there?Spikes?Okay.Froslass does have that unique role of Spike Stacker + Spin Blocker.
There really isn't to much of a difference though in Froslass setting up spikes compared to Deo-D or Roserade.Froslass relies on a few misses to get Spikes set up since it will die to a strong hit.Deoxys and Roserade tank hits and heal up while setting up their layers.If a Deoxys sets up 2-3 layers and Recovers up to full you are in the same position practically.A bulky ghost can be used along side these other Spikers as they do a better job at spin blocking since the won't take as much damgage against a strong hit like Donphan EQ on the predicted Froslass switch.
So its fast and has decent (key word decent) Sp.Atk to use STAB Blizzard.However it won't be sweeping and has to rely on Hail and some misses to wear down bulkier opponents.Frailer opponents of course have more of an issue as TWave will lower their speed/chances to hit while they will take more damage from the Blizzard.
Here's what I'm seeing.A Pokemon who is completely dependant on weather for Snow Veil/Blizzard to even work.This gives your team redundant weaknesses just between those 2.It is to frail to switch in often on damaging attacks that aren't resisted/immune and can't even switch on status (Toxic/Burn wear it down with Sub and Para reduces the good speed).Not to mention SR weak and vulnerable to both spikes.
So in conclusion it is a decent but not overly threatening attacker,great annoyer, and a nice Spike setter for Hail Teams only.Not seeing "BAN ME NOW" stamped on this one.
P.S. To those saying Snow Cloak/Sand Veil should be under evasion clause due only to principle, why isn't Tangled Feet on your list?Favoritism much.
Thank you dragon rider for all the calcs.
:P Swept by Spinda, every competitive player's worst nightmare.
:P Swept by Spinda, every competitive player's worst nightmare.
The Togekiss calcs were actually done by blarajan.For some reason,I kept getting a higher chance to flinch with Air Slash than Iron Head before he set me straight.But you're welcome.
By the way, EVERYONE should fear Spinda!Death to all who oppose the Spinda Empire!
By the way, EVERYONE should fear Spinda!Death to all who oppose the Spinda Empire!
Tangled Feet is pointless because while its a 50% chance to be hit, you also have a 50% chance to not attack. Sure, if it was fixed, Spinda could go to town with Thrash abuse.
Irrelevent.The argument was that Snow Cloak/Sand Veil should go under evasion clause since all they do is increase evasion.Tangled Feet when triggered does nothing but increase evasion.
If you are trying to make an argument that they need to be banned under principle,Tangled Feet has to be included.If arguing in a competetive sense, Cloak/Veil has only had an impact on a handful of Pokes and should not be widespread banned.If you really wanted to eliminate all evasion through out the entire game, Acupressure, Starf Berry, Tangled Feet,Snow Cloak, Sand Veil, and Metronome (it can pick Evasion boosting moves) would all have to be included.
Did you read my post? The amount of set up required to put Snow Cloak to use literally just consists of bringing out Abomasnow, whereas in order for Serene Grace to be effective Togekiss has to be faster than its opponent and actually has to attack each turn with just one move that has limited coverage and imperfect accuracy. Froslass doesn't have to do anything - it can set up spikes while its opponent whiffs at it, it can spread status, it can use pain split and heal, or just attack with Blizzard (which, incidentally, is stronger than Air Slash despite Froslass' lower SpA and has arguably better coverage). The comparison is inaccurate, so stop making it.
The Tangled Feet comparison is also silly; it's like comparing Accupressure to Moody. Tangled Feet actively requires your opponent to inflict you with status before it does anything, whereas Snow Cloak's activation is entirely out of your opponent's control.
So as a pre-emptive measure against the inevitable Froslass / hail spam, I've started using Blastoise to spin, and I recommend anyone that struggles against Froslass do the same. Scald / Foresight / Rapid Spin / Roar renders Froslass completely useless, and better physical bulk than Milotic helps mitigate the need for recover.
I have been reading your posts.I have put my counter arguments out since I'm not convinced.The gist of it is it sets up Spikes as some attacks miss.I went out and put out a Pokemon who is harder to hit as that is half the argument.I see now your argument is more along the fact that you think the small passive boost is more dangerous than the larger more agressive boost of Togekiss.
I do put forth though that Flying is not a bad type but I concede that Ice is probably better on the attack.Also 95% accuracy is not bad so I don't see why you put that out there.The outspeed argument is slightly flawed.You can not use paralysis to boost Froslass evasion but than argue it against Togekiss.I think either both opponents are paralyzed or not paralyzed.No mixing them for different results.
The only needs Abomasnow argument isn't iron clad either.You are now doubling up on Fire,Rock (READ SR), and Steel weaknesses.Both have numerous weaknesses (Abo 7 Fros 5) and aren't exactly winning any kind of defensive awards for their BST.Although Hail is good (and fun) it is not overly threatening.Also you can use it as a counter argument.All I have to do is switch in a Hippopotas and you lose your evasion boost and your attack drops to 70% accurate which is almost as low as that dreaded ParaCloak you are hating on.Or have something like Kingdra use Rain Dance.Or a Pokemon using Sunny Day.It is entirely reliant on weather so changing it is a valid counter.
The final thing for Froslass is the moves your listing.Almost every Hail Froslass is using Sub+TWave.Now it is almost always going to have either Blizzard or Ice Beam so it can deal damage.That leaves one slot.Now it can pick Spikes.There is nothing broken about Spikes.Plenty of bulky pokes set them up.It could pick a second damaging move like HP (Electric/Fighting) or Shadow Ball.Now all you need is a bulky Poke to wall it as 80 is good but not spectacular (Although I admit I didn't know it outdamaged Togekiss Air Slash.Point for you.) and it is now playing the role of a sub attacker.Not broken.The final options could be Confuse Ray or Pain Split to increase longevity.This leads it to being more annoying but does still just leave it with only Ice stab.The Ice stab is also an important decision.Blizzard is stronger but has low PP and makes you entirely reliant on Hail while Ice Beam allows you to get walled.Still not seeing anything ban worthy.It can't do everything at once.
I am going to point out something you said in one of your ealier posts.(See I read your posts!)
Just real quick you are the one who bolded "on principle".Now when I see that it means one thing.That regardless of how strong or weak,how practical or absurd the situation, anything that boosts evasion should be banned under the Evasion Clause.Tangled Feet does nothing but boost evasion.You cannot set it aside due to your feelings of its inadequecy.Spinda and Dodrio can self trigger with Thrash and there is a stack of berries that heal and inflict confusion.Practical?Not really.Evasion boosting?Yes.
Either follow through on the principle or make a case for Snow Veil/Sand Cloak as broken on their own merits.Don't just throw out Evasion Clause lolololol.If Cloak/Veil is broken and not just individuals like Garchomp, then it should be broke on everything with it.Lets see:
Sand Veil
5 Pokemon Released 3 DW Unreleased
Of the released:
Sandslash (RU),Dugtrio (RU but never used over Arena Trap),Cacturne (RU),Garchomp (Uber),Gliscor (OU but Poison Heal is almost always used)
Snow Cloak
4 Pokemon Released 1 DW Unreleased
Of the released:
Glaceon (RU),Mamoswine (OU),Froslass (UU),Beartic (RU)
So Pokemon with it aren't instantly broke like they were with Moody.Hard to see a widespread ban if going with the broken approach to get rid of it.Just as a final note.Moody is not banned under evasion.It is an ability ban.The boosts to defenses to tank everything or the boosts to offenses/speed to sweep are what got it banned.The evasion boosts were just the cherry,sprinkles, and anything else on top of the boosting sundae.
*sigh* not the Moody argument again?
Look in the nominations thread for OU Round 1 guys. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83851
Most of the guys who wanted Moody gone all cited it as an element of luck. Too much luck was involved in the metagame with Moody and it turns games into a diceroll.
Look in the nominations thread for OU Round 1 guys. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83851
Most of the guys who wanted Moody gone all cited it as an element of luck. Too much luck was involved in the metagame with Moody and it turns games into a diceroll.
For any arguments about an attacking froslass, IE a subattacker that is annoyingly evasive that you keep missing and it keeps hitting you, Cobalion pretty much shuts it down hard. Or registeel
I'm not trying to argue anything about Moody.What I'm saying is it is NOT banned under evasion clause and is instead under the "Abilities" section of the ban list.Therefore, you can't just say Moody is banned so Snow Cloak should be to.All I'm trying to get at.Moody can rot for all I care.
Yesterday, I posted all the relevant calcs that compare Froslass vs Togekiss
So, with Substitute, Froslass can really raise the odds of the opponent missing + fping. And while the opponent misses, Froslass keeps its Substitute, lay down Spikes, and nets a 12.5% recovery of its health, allowing it to stall further. In the other hand, with Hail the opponent wouldn't be regaining its health while Froslass is laying Spikes, and once its finished Spiking, a STAB Blizzard, even from 80 SAtk, would hurt.
Effectively laying down Spikes in Hail condition is annoying because grounded pokemon would have no way of healing its damage, unless its an Ice Type.
You can change weather with Hippopotas, but Hippo would have to switch out from a Froslass's potential Blizzard. In the meantime, Froslass can finish laying down Spikes behind a Substitute, and it shouldn't be too hard to bring back Abomasnow out to summon Hail again. Same with Sunny Day and Rain Dance. It's not sufficient.
Comparing Togekiss and Froslass is imo not really helping your case. In one setting there is Hail that prevents residual recovery and a strong Blizzard, and in the other hand, you have a weak Flying move but with recovery each turn. It is easy to bring out a faster Pokemon to absorb Air Slash and threaten Togekiss out, whereas Froslass has Substitute protection to paralyze the faster foe (not to mention that it already has 115 Speed). Also paraflinching twice in a row is 44%, so the opponent can bank on the 50:50 chance to cripple Togekiss. Unless it is a Phazer, Froslass doesn't care for consecutive fp / misses - one of those event would give Froslass enough momentum to achieve its role. Togekiss needs to repeatedly hope for paraflinch in order to prevent being crippled. I am not saying that Togekiss is NOT an annoying Pokemon to deal with, but comparing it with Froslass is stretching it.
A better way to argue Froslass's unbrokenness is showing how there are certain Pokemon that can deal with it without being overly worn down. Snunch mentioned Rapid Spin / Roar Blastoise; WinstonSchnozwick presented Cobalion and Registeel. If there are enough answers that can be used against Froslass, then that would more validly prove that Froslass is manageable than playing with numbers.
Pocket said:
So, with Substitute, Froslass can really raise the odds of the opponent missing + fping. And while the opponent misses, Froslass keeps its Substitute, lay down Spikes, and nets a 12.5% recovery of its health, allowing it to stall further. In the other hand, with Hail the opponent wouldn't be regaining its health while Froslass is laying Spikes, and once its finished Spiking, a STAB Blizzard, even from 80 SAtk, would hurt.
Effectively laying down Spikes in Hail condition is annoying because grounded pokemon would have no way of healing its damage, unless its an Ice Type.
You can change weather with Hippopotas, but Hippo would have to switch out from a Froslass's potential Blizzard. In the meantime, Froslass can finish laying down Spikes behind a Substitute, and it shouldn't be too hard to bring back Abomasnow out to summon Hail again. Same with Sunny Day and Rain Dance. It's not sufficient.
Comparing Togekiss and Froslass is imo not really helping your case. In one setting there is Hail that prevents residual recovery and a strong Blizzard, and in the other hand, you have a weak Flying move but with recovery each turn. It is easy to bring out a faster Pokemon to absorb Air Slash and threaten Togekiss out, whereas Froslass has Substitute protection to paralyze the faster foe (not to mention that it already has 115 Speed). Also paraflinching twice in a row is 44%, so the opponent can bank on the 50:50 chance to cripple Togekiss. Unless it is a Phazer, Froslass doesn't care for consecutive fp / misses - one of those event would give Froslass enough momentum to achieve its role. Togekiss needs to repeatedly hope for paraflinch in order to prevent being crippled. I am not saying that Togekiss is NOT an annoying Pokemon to deal with, but comparing it with Froslass is stretching it.
A better way to argue Froslass's unbrokenness is showing how there are certain Pokemon that can deal with it without being overly worn down. Snunch mentioned Rapid Spin / Roar Blastoise; WinstonSchnozwick presented Cobalion and Registeel. If there are enough answers that can be used against Froslass, then that would more validly prove that Froslass is manageable than playing with numbers.
OK.I can agree to that as it is a very reasonable request.Off the top of my head and with no calcs (so correct me if it doesn't take it as well as I think) I can think of:
Slowbro/Slowking - Don't mind speed drop from para,Regenerator/Slack Off for Spikes/Hail,resist Blizzard,could possibly set up Calm Minds
Suicune - Resists Blizzard, easily use Rest for Spikes/Hail,Pressure to stall out Blizzard, Calm Mind for better sponging
Milotic - Gains boost from TWave,Resists Blizzard,Recover or Rest for healing
Lanturn - Immune to TWave, high Sp.Def and resists Blizzard
Gastrodon/Quagsire - Immune to TWave,Recover for healing (Not sure since nuetral to Blizzard)
Clefable - Immune to passive damage, Softboiled or Wish for healing,possible Calm Mind
Chansey - Wish for healing self+team, Aromatherapy to heal TWave off team, Natural Cure (Iffy since it seems like Hail+Spikes could wear it down)
Empoleon - Quad resists Blizzard,Flash Cannon for SE or Roar to phaze,Won't mind para as it is either Sp.Def bulky or SD+Aqua Jet
Registeel - already mentioned
Mew - Has reliable healing,has acess to Roar/Taunt/Heal Bell/Light Screen to deal with it, possible Synchronize (doubtful)
Deoxys D - Pressure to stall Blizzard, Recover for healing, has acess to own hazards or screens
Rotom H - Resists Blizzard, no spikes damage, defensive sets won't mind para while Scarf sets can either Trick/Overheat a Subless Froslass or Volt Switch to break a Sub.
Snorlax - Thick Fat,high Sp.Def,usually has Rest to recover Hail/Spikes
I'm sure some of these don't entirely work and some probably work alot better than others but that's some initial thoughts.All of these assuming standard Hail set of TWave/Sub/Spikes/Blizzard.
Sigh.
Anyone who thinks the spikes set is the issue is doing it wrong, because it's the set with Shadow Ball over Spikes that's the problem. That set can easily sweep.
Using Shadow Ball:
Slowbro/King LOSES
Suicune is fine
Milotic is fine barring Sp.Def drops from Shadow Ball
Lanturn loses
Not too sure about the damage of Gastrodon and Quagsire.
Clefable still wins, but, can't do a lot back...
Chansey still wins, but, frankly, using a defensive suspect is kinda a bad argument anyway.
Emploeon wins
Registeel wins
Mew loses, Froslass will get the first Sub nomatter what Mew does. If it Taunts, the sub still has to be broken, and if it attacks, Froslass puts up subs until Mew misses.
Deo-D loses, or at best, it's a stalemate
Rotom-H loses
Snorlax is fine.
....
So, basically, Froslass can be stopped by specially bulky waters, bulky Steels, and the fat blob Normals.
Yeah... what about everything else, that's not designed to take Ice or Ghost attacks? Torn apart. Thats the problem. Not spikes.
Dosen't help that quite a few of those 'counters' to Froslass can't do jack back.
I was under the impression Spikes WAS the reason everyone was up in arms over Froslass.Those Pokes do counter the Spiker set.If however you think that a more aggressive Froslass is more suspect I'll look into it.What set are you thinking specifically?
Sub/TWave/Blizzard/Shadow Ball (Lefties or Orb?)
Sub + 3 Attacks (Lefties or Orb?)
Life Orb 3 Attacks + Destiny Bond
Timid Specs
Modest Scarf
Sub/TWave/Blizzard/Shadow Ball (Lefties or Orb?)
Sub + 3 Attacks (Lefties or Orb?)
Life Orb 3 Attacks + Destiny Bond
Timid Specs
Modest Scarf
Spikes is the only reason that Froslass could be considered a suspect. The above waters / steels for the most part dont do anything to prevent Froslass from setting up 1-2 layers and switching out. The question you have to ask yourself when talking about Froslass is "in a metagame with Deoxys-D and Roserade, are the free spikes that Froslass provides breaking the metagame?" If you're swept by a hazard-weak special sweeper with base 80 SpA and no boosting moves, its time to go back to the drawing board.
Anybody using Wynaut? I'm curious to know if it works. Still outspeeds Chansey and can easily take down Hitmontop. Might be worth looking at.
Anybody using Wynaut? I'm curious to know if it works. Still outspeeds Chansey and can easily take down Hitmontop. Might be worth looking at.
ive actually been having decent enough sucess with eviolite fraxure right now. with an eviolite, hes actually pretty bulky, and 117/67 offensive stats arent that bad.
after a ddance he outsppeds any weavile who would wnat to use ice punch on fraxure over ice shard. he can survive both mamo and weaviles ice shards and hit hard back with an outrage. the only issue there really is with him is that he has no good coverage move. im literally running dig because thats his only move to use. luckily with the non-existant amount of steel types in uu this is ok, and with mold breaker it kills things like missy who use levitate. anything that is a flying type is gonna get outrage raped. he also 2hkos everything in the meta with stealth rocks (besides sometimes max defense tangrowth and ferroseed).
after a ddance he outsppeds any weavile who would wnat to use ice punch on fraxure over ice shard. he can survive both mamo and weaviles ice shards and hit hard back with an outrage. the only issue there really is with him is that he has no good coverage move. im literally running dig because thats his only move to use. luckily with the non-existant amount of steel types in uu this is ok, and with mold breaker it kills things like missy who use levitate. anything that is a flying type is gonna get outrage raped. he also 2hkos everything in the meta with stealth rocks (besides sometimes max defense tangrowth and ferroseed).
@prem
u could try.... rock smash! lets say you can only 3hko feroseed. thats is three outrages... 180 times 3 divided by two (resist) which is 270. rock smash, given that u get one defense drop, is 80 (because SE) +80x1.5(defense drop) +80x1.5(previous drop) =320. 50 bp more. getting one defense drop out of two is pretty common, 75 of it happeneing. there is a chance (25 percent) to get two defense drops, which will get you 80+80x1.5+80x2... which is 360...
u could try.... rock smash! lets say you can only 3hko feroseed. thats is three outrages... 180 times 3 divided by two (resist) which is 270. rock smash, given that u get one defense drop, is 80 (because SE) +80x1.5(defense drop) +80x1.5(previous drop) =320. 50 bp more. getting one defense drop out of two is pretty common, 75 of it happeneing. there is a chance (25 percent) to get two defense drops, which will get you 80+80x1.5+80x2... which is 360...
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