np: UU Stage 6 - No Surprises

[SJCrew]

Admittedly with the upcoming B/W2 there may be major changes again such as new DW moves and move tutors. But these are two issues I honestly don't think are going to change a awful lot.

Platinum gave Scizor Bullet Punch, who is now currently the most used Pokemon in Standard since DP Garchomp. We also have a slew of cool DW abilities and Pokemon we were due last game, such as Contrary Serperior, Shadow Tag Chandelure, Meloetta, Sand Rush Sandslash etc. I'm inclined to say you have no idea what you're talking about.

[PsYch071c]

Originally Posted by Fat Forsety

I'm going to take this opportunity to bring up as well that the UU Council members need to make a decision soon on both Keldeo and Chansey.

Chansey is a well overdue issue which was left unfinished without a final verdict before his departure towards OU. However with the imminent threat of it returning a verdict needs to be reached on it. Fact is before it's departure it was already heading towards a possible ban with being auto-suspect before the system was changed.

Keldeo is another major issue, anyone who has ever played the massively broken DW environments will know that even there Keldeo towers over the bulk of the entire OU game offensively. It doesn't take a lot to realize he may not be suitable for the UU game. What I propose is a grace period where he'll be temp banned whilst he is unleashed on OU and if he goes OU (likely) that's the problem sorted. However if he ends up falling to UU which I very much doubt then we'll see.

Admittedly with the upcoming B/W2 there may be major changes again such as new DW moves and move tutors. But these are two issues I honestly don't think are going to change a awful lot.

Please do not ask us to suspect things that no one has even seen perform in this metagame. Chansey you can go ahead and argue for because we have already seen how overpowering she can be, but Keldeo we have not.This kind of mindset is exactly why we don't have suspect tests, and it prevents us from being able to use some really cool pokemon in UU such as Virizion and Meinshao.

[DetroitLolcat]

Originally Posted by Fat someone

Chansey is a well overdue issue which was left unfinished without a final verdict before his departure towards OU.

Chansey was voted on in Round 2 once and not banned.

[Heysup]

A reason for having a council is so that we can ban really "uncompetitive" stuff really quickly. If anything is a huge problem, it'll be dealt with in a timely fashion.

[FlareBlitz]

Originally Posted by Fat DetroitLolcat

Chansey was voted on in Round 2 once and not banned.

And now that everyone has had time to enjoy a metagame without her, hopefully she will be banned this time if she drops down.

[Pokemazter]

It's kinda sad how you all want to see Chansey autobanned / autosuspect as soon as it touches back down in UU. It's kinda dumb, especially when Scrafty is comming down with it. It shits on Chansey. Virizion and Toxicroak will do the same thing too. Heracross and Hitmontop are 5th and 6th respectively in usage. Escavalier's (Choice Band, it's most common set) Megahorn does three quarters worth of the gargantuan HP stat. Simply having hazards up and POTENTIALLY sand or hail, seeing the former has no business being banned and neither did the later, and Chansey is gone and done via that route.

These Pokemon (current UU) beat Chansey in a 2HKO or less:

-Escavalier
-Mew
-Hitmontop
-Heracross
-Machamp
-Rhyperior
-Bisharp
-Swampert
-Darmanitan
-Cobalion
-Honchkrow
-Krookodile
-Kingdra

There's also plenty of Pokemon between RU and NU that can handle Chansey. I've noticed a trend with the players here in UU; we let playstyles and individual Pokemon beat us, even when ways to counteract them are right under our noses. Chansey won't be carrying Leftovers, it's forced to use Eviolite. This makes Hazards all the more viable in our metagame, as all of these Pokemon have the capability to do 60% plus to Chansey, which frankly, will result in an OHKO with full hazards. Sure, it's situational, you need full hazards and one of these 13 of 53 Pokemon in the UU tier on your team, potentially even with a specific set, but good god. Banning something from preference or a past experience when the metagame has changed ever since Chansey left is ridiculously stupid, and banning Chansey would be removing a defensive aspect of the future UU. Chansey makes playstyles such as balance and stall more viable in UU. Not being able to beat it, much like in OU with Blissey / Skarmory, is just a piss-poor teambuild, which should be adressed in order to attain success on the ladder.

If there's anything that should be banned, and that's if it comes to UU, would be Scrafty, as the Dragon Dance set would destroy UU, but that's theorymons, not 100% sure if it would.

On a side note, whatever became of the suspect decision(s) that were announced last week to be shown in the near future?

[FlareBlitz]

Originally Posted by Fat Pokemazter

missing the point

I always find it incredibly hilarious when people post things like "Hey look guys these physical attackers with over 125 base attack can usually 2hko Chansey when holding a boosting item! It's not broken!" I see posts like this every time, and I expect to see a lot more of it before we boot that fat bitch back upstairs.

No, it actually doesn't matter if a couple of absurdly powerful physical attackers can beat Chansey, because defensive suspects should not be evaluated in the same manner as offensive suspects. When you say "heracross isn't broken because it's countered by gligar / nidoqueen / crobat / chandelure / whatever" you are making a good argument because Heracross' job is to destroy a team of Pokemon, and being stopped by a lot of Pokemon means it can't be too good at its job.

Chansey, on the other hand, is a special wall. That is its job. You can't say "chansey isn't broken because it can't wall absurdly powerful physical attackers" - that's like saying "staraptor isn't broken because it can't take ice beams".
As a special wall, Chansey is good enough to shut down damn near every special attacker in the tier. Of the top of my head, the only common / viable special attackers that can beat Chansey are Chandelure, Togekiss (not even a fair example because this thing just shits on everything defensive ever), Mismagius, Mew, Azelf, and...uh...that's it. Even crazy shit like CM LO Raikou with Aura Sphere handily loses to Chansey one on one (+1 LO Rash Raikou's Aura Sphere v. 0/252 Chansey: 30.8% - 36.4%, and if you wondering, the same easily 2hkos every other special wall in the tier). What about something like Cobalion? It has fucking STAB Focus Blast, surely it should be able to get past Chansey? Nope - +1 LO Cobalion's Focus Blast v. 0/252+ Chansey: 43% - 50.8%.
Chansey is so good at its job that its very existence will cause the metagame to become centralized around physical attacks. When Chansey was around, I ran a team with 5-6 physical attackers, because being walled by Chansey means that any game against a team with Chansey has several of your pokemon being nigh useless. If it drops down again, and for some reason we don't get rid of it, I'll definitely do the same thing, just like I ran Regirock and Impish Rhyperior during Staraptor meta. Should I have to do that? No. No I shouldn't.

And as a side note...I emphasized earlier that Chansey was a special wall, so basing arguments around its ability to take physical hits is missing the point. However, I do not want it to be thought that Chansey is frail. Quite the contrary...

252+ Rhyperior's Earthquake against 0/252+ Chansey: 39.3% - 46.3%
CB Weavile's Ice Punch against 0/252+ Chansey: 35.7% - 42.3%
Max attack (leftovers) Honchkrow's Brave Bird against same: 43.2% - 51%
Max attack (leftovers) Escavalier's Megahorn: 45.9% - 54%

Oh and just for posterity:
Defensive Hitmontop's Close Combat v. 252/252+ Chansey: 46.9% - 55.4% "lol"

[Iridium]

Originally Posted by Fat Pokemazter

-Escavalier
-Mew
-Hitmontop
-Heracross
-Machamp
-Rhyperior
-Bisharp
-Swampert
-Darmanitan
-Cobalion
-Honchkrow
-Krookodile
-Kingdra

Kingdra and Krook but not Flygon? Flygon hits harder on the physical side than either (unboosted). And don't forget AZUMARILL, who can OHKO

Anyway, the problem is actually hitting Chansey with these, considering that the list of moves that even so much as 2HKO Chansey is extremely short (compared to a 2HKO list for any other pokemon in UU). Chansey switches in on any other attack (come in on adamant scarf krook earthquake? sure. toxic? sure.) and uses wish/twave/toxic as your physical super hard hitter comes in, and then dips

[jrrrrrrr]

Originally Posted by Fat FlareBlitz

Chansey, on the other hand, is a special wall. That is its job. You can't say "chansey isn't broken because it can't wall absurdly powerful physical attackers" - that's like saying "staraptor isn't broken because it can't take ice beams".

Actually both of those lines of reasoning are perfectly valid. We're talking about one pokemon breaking a metagame. You need to look at the most basic definition of "broken", which is when it becomes reasonable to expect that any given battle will focus on one pokemon. When something sees record usage DESPITE their flaws, that is when something is breaking the metagame. If Physical attackers are prominent in the metagame, then there's no way something destroyed by physical attackers could break it when it drops down. The last bit of your post with the calcuations is great reasoning, but the first half is completely off base. When you start showing how it's main weakness is not that big of a weakness (with the damage calcs), that is when you can start making a claim of brokenness.

I don't really even disagree with what you posted, I just think it's funny when council members are saying that they will vote to ban things before they even play a single match in the new metagame. THAT'S missing the point.

[FlareBlitz]

Originally Posted by Fat jrrrrrrr

Actually both of those lines of reasoning are perfectly valid

No they aren't. Offensive suspects are fundamentally different from defensive suspects and should be evaluated differently. There's a reason we haven't ever banned anything under the Defensive clause, and that's because our Defensive clause is rather poorly defined, which makes it nearly impossible to ban anything under it.

Originally Posted by Fat jrrrrrrr

You need to look at the most basic definition of "broken", which is when it becomes reasonable to expect that any given battle will focus on one pokemon. When something sees record usage DESPITE their flaws, that is when something is breaking the metagame.

I disagree very strongly. Usage can be a poor indicator of brokenness for a variety of reasons. Any metagame where there is a powerful, centralizing threat will adapt heavily to that threat, which actually makes the threat less viable and, thus, it may end up seeing less usage than other Pokemon who are not so heavily prepared for / who may be versatile. This does not mean the suspect is any less imbalanced, as its very existence still heavily skews the metagame. That is, it's not just that any given battle will focus on one Pokemon, it's also that any given battle will be "substantially impacted" by that Pokemon's existence even if neither team is using it.

Originally Posted by Fat jrrrrrrr

If Physical attackers are prominent in the metagame, then there's no way something destroyed by physical attackers could break it when it drops down. The last bit of your post with the calcuations is great reasoning, but the first half is completely off base. When you start showing how it's main weakness is not that big of a weakness (with the damage calcs), that is when you can start making a claim of brokenness.

If physical attackers are only prominent because Chansey caused most special attackers to go extinct, it's entirely invalid to say that the metagame is acceptable, even if it were the case that Chansey couldn't handle physical attackers (I mean, it's not, but).

Originally Posted by Fat jrrrrrrr

I just think it's funny when council members are saying that they will vote to ban things before they even play a single match in the new metagame. THAT'S missing the point.

I'm basing my opinion on Chansey based on a metagame I've already played. The current metagame has only become more favorable towards it. I'm not sure why you're assuming that we're going to theoryban the thing - I'm just making my current opinion on it known. If that opinion changes after playtesting, I will certainly update everyone here. Until then, you should probably refrain from wildly speculating as to our intentions.

[jrrrrrrr]

Originally Posted by Fat FlareBlitz

No they aren't.

Individually, they are both valid. Obviously Staraptor would be considered banworthy for a different reason than Chansey. But you can say that Staraptor's inability to take common attacks would make it less-banworthy (as I actually did in my suspect vote, if you cant switch in you are at a huge disadvantage).....and you can say that Chansey's weakness to common physical attacks makes it less-banworthy (which is the discussion atm)

Originally Posted by Fat FlareBlitz

That is, it's not just that any given battle will focus on one Pokemon, it's also that any given battle will be "substantially impacted" by that Pokemon's existence even if neither team is using it.

That's exactly what I meant.

Originally Posted by Fat FlareBlitz

If physical attackers are only prominent because Chansey caused most special attackers to go extinct, it's entirely invalid to say that the metagame is acceptable, even if it were the case that Chansey couldn't handle physical attackers (I mean, it's not, but).

His argument is that physical attackers are already prominent and viable before Chansey enters the tier (assuming it even will drop), which is valid.

And Chansey will not cause special attackers to "go extinct", just like it didn't do that when it was UU earlier.

Originally Posted by Fat FlareBlitz

I'm not sure why you're assuming that we're going to theoryban the thing - I'm just making my current opinion on it known.

What I'm saying is that you can't have a current opinion on it because it's not even legal in this metagame. At best your opinion isn't current, it's months old. Your posts about a current metagame with Chansey in it are pure theorymon. And things like this which imply a decision has been made already don't help either:

Originally Posted by Fat FlareBlitz's previous post

I expect to see a lot more of it before we boot that fat bitch back upstairs.

[SStats]

Chansey's physical walling ability is the scary part--not its special walling ability. To ban Chansey because of its ability to wall special attackers would be silly. The metagame already contains threats such as Snorlax and Porygon2 that, while not as specially bulky as Chansey, are still enormously bulky on the special side and have actual offense. My first thought when Porygon2 comes in on a special attacker that it can wall is usually, "OK, gotta not take too much from Tri Attack/Tbolt/Ice Beam," and my second thought is usually, "uh oh, what if Tri Attack haxes me? Gotta prepare for that" before I make my move/switch something in. I rarely find myself just trying to muscle through it, so in effect it acts in the same manner as Chansey. In this way the metagame is already pretty heavily centralized around physical attackers.

Dedicated special walls are not only much easier to have because special attacks tend to have lower base power, but there exist more Pokemon suitable for the task. Umbreon is similar to P2, and guys like Hitmontop have a bunch of SDefense, whereas all the guys with high Def like Rhyperior and Steels bar Bronzong (who has equally good SDef anyway) are weak to common physical attacking types like Fighting/Ground/Fire.

So yeah, if you were to ban Chansey just because it stops special attackers, you'd have to ban Togekiss because it stops defensive Pokemon. They both have very general things that they're very good at and impact battles and team-building considerably for certain types of teams.

The problem is that when something is that good at its primary role, it shouldn't have a secondary role (of soft-walling physical attackers that don't have STAB SE) that's equally scary. That's just too much. So now you not only have to switch in a physical attacker to kill Chansey--you also have to make sure it has a Choice Band, or can boost, or has oodles of base Atk. Too much to expect. Then you add in Chansey's supporting movepool--while you're busy switching in that physical attacker, Chansey can use Aromatherapy, Wish to pass infinite bulk to something actually scary, or use Toxic/TWave on you and cripple whatever you switched in.

So Chansey's problem definitely isn't that it walls special attackers. Other things already do that. Chansey's problem is that it has Umbreon's support movepool with better-than-Snorlax special defense and beyond-frailty levels of physical defense.

[kokoloko*]

I'm just gonna clarify something really quick:

I doubt there's a single person who detests the shit metagame Chansey created around it last time more than me. On top of this, you guys know my ban philosophy is... loose to say the least. Yet, I'm not going to push for a Chansey quickban. Why? Chansey doesn't fit the currently accepted perception (not definition, because... no) of "broken". This is, of course, due solely to the fact that people insist "broken" means a Pokemon can effortlessly power through entire teams like Garchomp did in OU (which I entirely disagree with, but I'll never hear the end of it). Not to mention, Chansey on the opposing team = free Spikes with Roserade = easy wins on the ladder :)

Much like sand, a ban on Chansey would have to be based on other factors. I do think bans should happen when a metagame becomes stale due to a 1-2 Pokemon, so if this happens, we'll probably ban it. But these types of bans can't be done hastily (they could if it wasn't such a huge bitch to get something unbanned here but w/e).

tl;dr - I wont push for a Chansey ban until we actually see it shit on the metagame because I don't wanna see people bitching.

PS: We should talk about something that's actually relevant now.

[spuds4ever]

Before roserade is brought up for the 8,000,000th time, I'd like to hear people's opinions on the little pixies who, in my opinion, are the cats among the pigeons of the UU metagame. Azelf and Mew, what do people think?

Mew, I'm quite surprised, is not on really high usage. The fact that it can run pretty much an infinite amount of viable sets while having great bulk and solid offenses and speed makes it really dangerous. I find often that if you guess the wrong set, you'll pay very heavily for it, I.E, switching in a gligar to a predicted SD set when it turns out to be NP and then all of a sudden you have a +2 sweeper on 100/100 offenses which is really difficult to revenge kill in one shot to switch in to.

Azelf isn't quite as versatile, but seriously, 115/115 offenses are incredible and I don't really know why people use it as a SR lead so often. Choice specs is so dangerous as it can OHKO nearly everything in the tier with the appropriate move so that should be used more as a lead in my view as threatening a OHKO on whatever you face on turn 1 is a lot more scary then having SR set up IMO.

Opinions?

[Heysup]

Mew is pretty dangerous simply because of its versatility....but if you want to set up a swords dance you're going to need a turn to set up and Mew isn't actually relatively dangerous (compared to others) after one SD or NP so you'll probably still be able to check it even if you guess wrong.

And by nature, Choice Psychic-types are not ideal because of Pursuit users.

[PsYch071c]

Azelf has 4 moveslot syndrome, is weak to Pursuit, and is easily revenge killed because of its terrible defenses. I have tried Sub+3 Attacks a few times and gotten quite a few surprise kills, but I always end up getting a kill and then giving the opponent momentum because I am forced out by a faster U-Turn. I could never see Nasty Plot working well in this metagame simply because it is too frail to set up, weak to Sucker Punch, and OHKO'd by every common scarfer in the tier

I do not believe Mew can function as an effective sweeper either, because as Heysup said, even when you mispredict the set it is not THAT dangerous with a boost under its belt. I guess the SD one is alright because it has priority, but Sucker Punch doesn't even 1HKO Flygon at +4, and a lot of bulky pokes can take a Zen Headbutt at +6 and phaze or status it.

Mew works better as a boosting wallbreaker, hitting most walls for respectable damage and weakening walls just enough for teammates to come in and sweep.

[Iridium]

Originally Posted by Fat PsYch071c

and a lot of bulky pokes can take a Zen Headbutt at +6 and phaze it out.

What? Nothing is taking a +6 hit unless it resists.

slowbro resists the standard SD set, but it cannot phase. The only thing that fits this description that I see is an enemy mew.

[PsYch071c]

Originally Posted by Fat Iridium

What? Nothing is taking a +6 hit unless it resists.

slowbro resists the standard SD set, but it cannot phase. The only thing that fits this description that I see is an enemy mew.

+6 252 Atk Jolly Mew vs 252/252 Def Standard Suicune: Zen Headbutt: (70.54 - 83.16%)
+6 252 Atk Jolly Mew vs 252/252 Def Standard Tangrowth: Zen Headbutt: (66.33 - 78.21%)

Suicune can Phaze Mew out while Tangrowth can put Mew to Sleep.

Please check your facts before posting something like "nothing takes a +6 hit unless it resists." I have used Mew plenty of times and been in this very situation more than once, and I seriously doubt that you have, judging from your post. Anyway, if your opponent is dumb enough to let you boost up that much then they pretty much deserve to lose.

[SJCrew]

Those are Leftovers calcs. Mew can OHKO both with Life Orb.

But one thing Psych is right about is that Mew won't full-on sweep teams. Very few UU Pokemon are actually capable of accomplishing that, with our most potent attackers lacking the appropriate speed or boosting moves, and preferring to hit hard right out of the gate. Mew is the complete inverse. Still, you'd best put money on the fact that he'll take 1 or 2 of your furry friends to the depths with him.

[Iridium]

Ah. yeah, I use LO with SD Mew. With such low BP on the moves, it needs all the power it can get.

Also even more than that, I use nonstandard mew sets. like specs. or LO with SR and 3 attacks (Superpower hits pretty hard without a boost and tends to surprise people for some reason).

[Heysup]

I would be surprised...well actually pleasantly surprised that mew used Superpower because it's a free Pursuit...I didn't even know it learned that.

[Iridium]

What are you going to pursuit with? Even at -1, a nonswitch pursuit won't kill mew unless it's taken substantial damage, and even a -1 superpower OHKOs or nearly OHKOs offensive things it hits SE.

[kokoloko*]

Okay guys, it's official--the UU Senate finally came to a consensus on what we're going to ban. I feel like I owe the community a bit of an explanation for this taking so long, so here it is:

The first thing we did was have a preferential vote on what we were going to ban, the choices were:

1. Sand Veil
2. Sand Stream
3. Sand Veil + Sand Stream
4. Stoutland
5. Nothing

The senate voted and there was a division between the first three choices, which led to the second phase of this vote - justifying our choices. Paragraphs for said justifications will be presented below.

Here's where it all went wrong though: Upstart is currently experiencing some personal problems which left him unable to take part in this vote. The vote was tied at 3 for a Sand Veil or combination ban and 3 for a Sand Stream ban, and with the 7th senator unable to vote, we had to wait for Jabba to make a decision on how we would proceed. He decided to act as the tie-breaker until Upstart is able to pick up his duty as a Senator again, which led to:

Ginku - Sand Stream

---

After thinking about Sand for quite some time now, I've ultimately come to the conclusion that while it may not be "too much" to handle in the sense that it's close to unbeatable, it does have a siginificant enough (negative) impact on the metagame to warrant a ban.

For one, we have Stoutland. While it's true that Stoutland is rather easy to beat with almost any Rock- or Steel-type, it definitely has strengths that make it a dangerous presence. On top of being rather hard to switch into sometimes without a healthy resist (who tend to lack recovery), it's an exceptionally good revenge killer, making it hard to set up a sweep against a Sand team, and can clean late in the game pretty often. So while Stoutland by itself is most definitely not broken, it's still a serious threat, and it's by far not all sand has to offer.
Another problem is the weather itself; losing 1/16 of your health every turn may not seem like much, but it adds up quickly, and it's not the only thing you take damage from. For example, a Life Orb Azelf will survive no more than five turns if it comes in on stealth rock, and that's assuming it isn't hit by any attack in the meantime, while a Weavile is done after 4 if it takes as much as a poke. Further, a number of walls rely on their leftovers to avoid some 2 or 3HKOs, and missing out on that recovery greatly weakens them; Snorlax is suddenly much less effective at walling a Zapdos while Slowbro finds itself in trouble trying to recover from Flygon's U turns. Similarly, Arcanine and Umbreon pretty much lose their only good option for recovery in Morning Sun/Moonlight, and Shaymin and Roserade probably wouldn't mind not having to switch after recovering either. This all adds up to sand more or less severely disadvantaging certain pokemon, limiting variety.
Finally, probably the biggest problem is Sand Veil. The thing that makes this so problematic is the combination of the the fact that it can and will have a huge impact on games and the fact that it's unavoidable, with only the user affecting the situation while the other player has no choice other than hoping that he hits. One could say that something relying on a 20% chance is not reliable enough to be called good or even broken, but if you consider the actual effect it can have on games, things change. A single miss on an important move can easily turn a lost game around, and unlike when choosing a low-accuracy move yourself, you're forced to rely on your inaccurate moves, without anything you can do about it. The problem is not that Sand Veil is broken in the sense that it's "too good", but rather that it actively encourages handing the control of the game to the RNG and additionally gives the user a potentially huge advantage, which really can't be what we want for the metagame.

In summary, I believe that while the individual parts of sand may be managable (for the most part), the combination of the additional pressure on frail Life Orb sweepers and walls relying on leftovers recovery, the revenge killing and sweeping cababilities provided by Stouland, and Sand Veil being an extremely dangerous factor that is completely unavoidable and out of one player's control make it detrimental to the metagame to a point where it should be banned for the sake of a more diverse and enjoyable tier. I also wouldn't be opposed to just a Sand Veil ban for the reasons explained above and it being the main problem, but to avoid complications with soft-bans or complex bans that don't fully solve the problem (Sand Stream+Sand Veil), I prefer this option.

PsYch071c - Sand Stream

---

Though sand has not quite held the same stranglehold on the UU tier as Deoxys-D or Hail, I believe that it limits teambuilding and overall diversity in the metagame enough to merit a ban. Though the ban of sand would eliminate Hippopotas from the tier entirely, and Stoutland would go from a top tier sweeper and revenge killer to an almost nonexistent threat, the positive effects on the metagame would far outweigh the negatives. Speedy and frail pokemon carrying Life Orb would no longer have to worry about combating Sandstorm damage after dealing with LO, hazard damage, and potentially recoil. Sandstorm shortens their already meager life span, and often it isn’t worth using a pokemon such as LO Arcanine or Darmanitan, who often get only one chance per game to attack before they die.

Sand may not be as popular as many other playstyles, but it is common enough that every team has to prepare for it. Sand limits teambuilding by forcing every offensive team to run a very defensive pokemon or bulky steel. If you choose not to, your team will be ripped to shreds by the best revenge killer in the game, Stoutland. This places restrictions on teambuilding and decreases the overall diversity in the tier, as basically every successful team ends up having either a Bronzong or Cobalion to combat sand. If sand was removed, teambuilding would become much more creative as a teamslot would no longer have to be completely dedicated to stopping sand. This will also lead to an increased viability of other playstyles, most notably heavy- or hyper-offense that rely so much on getting hazards down early. It would dramatically increase the effectiveness of Focus Sash leads such as Froslass and Azelf, because their sash would no longer be removed by sand, and hyperoffense could become a much more viable playstyle than it currently is.

Notice I did not say that sand is “broken” or “overpowered”. It is relatively easy to check, and it forces the opponent to waste their first teamslot on a baby hippopotamus. But the diversity that this ban would bring to the tier by increasing the viability of Life Orb sweepers and Focus Sash leads, and by not forcing every team to dedicate a teamslot to prepare for sand will make for a more creative, diverse, and ultimately, more competitive metagame.
Hippopotas for BL.

SJCrew - Sand Veil

---

We already banned Hail in large part because of Evasion. We've already banned Garchomp in large part because of Evasion. Evasion moves have been banned since Gen 1. What is the difference between Evasion abilities and other uncompetitive aspects the game we've ruled out thusfar....?

Nothing. It's an embarrassing loophole in our ruleset that we've never bothered to correct and continues to ruins games as we tie ourselves in red tape. Gen V UU already has been, and is still occasionally frustrating with otherwise manageable, terrible, or borderline joke Pokemon such as Sub Toxic Gligar or Cacturne being used on scrub teams to eek out wins from significantly better players who can plan for every contingency but missing their perfect-accuracy Ice Beam or Hidden Power twice. I will never support this as a healthy aspect of a strategy game.

Sand itself, by contrast, is a competitive strategy that competitive players use, planning around their frankly obvious strengths and weaknesses. It's noticeably dwarfed in capabilities by past weather suspects that have set the bar for what crosses the line in UU, and its only real abuser is scarcely debated and universally agreed upon as fair when scrutinized. On top of that, it isn't even common enough to make grounds for centralization, which lends even less credence to the idea that it causes undue stress on UU players.

Overall, I don't think anyone is losing their shit over the best revenge killer in UU when they can nonchalantly put one or more of of Rhyperior, Cobalion, Aggron, Brozong, Gligar, or others on their team to mitigate this problem. Failing that, they can also take advantage of bad predictions with dangerous checks like Chandelure or Trick Room NP Cofagrigus, who are much harder to counter than any Stoutland.

FlareBlitz - Sand Veil

---

My vote for sand veil at this point has nothing to do with me changing my mind as far as my earlier post goes. Everything I said earlier still goes, including the fact that I personally would find a sand-less metagame more fun. However, it seems that many members of the community disagree with me, enough such that I would not feel comfortable voting for a ban despite their opinions (much as I disagree with them). I realize that community representation isn't everything, but when it comes to bans that have less to do with competitive balance (like this one) I place enough value on the principle of relative community consensus that I don't feel comfortable putting sandstream as a whole on the chopping block at this time. I think it's only right that we first look at Sand Veil and then give the metagame a little more to develop.

But I want to make it clear that if, at some point in the future, there is more consensus among the community that sandstream makes the metagame "less fun" than it should be, I will vote to ban sandstream as a whole.

Heysup - Sand Steam + Sand Veil

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OK, maybe I'm the only one who this has happened to but Sand teams are getting rarer and rarer. I haven't had a specific problem against them. Not even close to it, actually.

Sand has done nothing to stop me from using LO, Synthesis (even on the same sweeper), and the other moves you listed. It's not super common anymore, and if you find yourself spamming Synthesis or Morning Sun against a Sandstorm team you're not playing very effectively against it.

I'm all for banning things to make the metagame more fun for everyone, but you can't such a subjective choice to such a small amount of people. If we want to do something like that, for me to be able to support that in good conscience, we would need some sort of community wide vote or go back to fucking bold votes. And yes, you would still need reasoning for this. Without reasoning our positions are meaningless and monkeys could be running the senate and we would likely end up with the same metagame. This is being brought up currently in the suspect thread I think....but we should get this ban done before so we don't postpone it even LONGER.

The only thing I think is actually worth banning would be Sand veil because it's ridiculous to keep something so luck-based in the game when there's basically no reason to not do it. You aren't really soft-banning anything along with sand besides like Sandslash and that's going to be changed when his DW ability is released.

Now I also don't want to fuck with RU and NU just because we are lazy and don't want to combo ban (which would happen if we ban Sand Veil straight up). This combo ban, for all I care, can be a temporary thing until all or most of the relevant Pokemon have their DW abilities, but that seems a little complicated.

Unless we can an official "OK" from both of those councils, we need to do a combo ban of Sand Stream + Sand Veil.

kokoloko - Sand Stream

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The primary reason why a ban on Sand Stream is on the table is not because the playstyle is overpowering/broken, it's because of the huge strain it puts on both teambuilding and the metagame around it. This has been discussed in the megathread, but once again here it is: The use of Morning Sun / Synthesis / Moonlight, and Life Orb on Pokemon who are not immune to Sand is heavily discouraged. Additionally, you almost feel obligated to run a Rock- or Steel-type on otherwise perfectly acceptable teams (remind you of the Dragon- / Steel- DPP OU? Yeah, me too). Pokemon such as SubCM Raikou are not as good as they 'should' be, and things like SubSeeding or ProtectSeeding become almost a liability when facing sand.

None of these factors seem to be crucial to the metagame, and hence not worth banning sand to undo, but after playing POs UU for a while (in which sand is banned right now), I realized just how much more enjoyable it is to have them be around and not worry about sand teams ruining your ladder experience. Actual experience trumps mere theory every single time (The FUK Dragons tournament, in which Salamence and Latias where banned, was one of the big reasons why these two were eventually banned from the metagame). Now, I'm perfectly aware that PO's UU is not the same as Smogon's UU by a long shot, but the key thing to remember is that it still gave me an idea of what a sandless metagame feels like and the benefits it could bring, allowing me to make a less subjective call.

Think about it, is there any particular reason why we shouldn't ban it when doing so brings clear competitive benefits to the metagame? At the root level, this is a choice between having either the option to use Stoutland and lolHippo, or getting to freely use all of the things I listed above without having them randomly decrease in effectiveness when you run into sand.

I wish people would stop getting caught up in the semantics of whether something is "broken" or not, it doesn't matter how you look at it, it's always going to be subjective. Why not make the most of it and create a better metagame?

I really gave it some thought, guys. This issue is a lot bigger than simply ticking the broken / not broken box. It's about improving the metagame as a whole, so for that reason, I choose to ban Sand Stream.

So, as you can see, there was no clear winner here without Upstart's vote, so Jabba had to break the tie, and with that, Sand Stream is now offically banned from UU. He will make a post later on explaining his reasoning.

Also, if anyone is interested in the unofficial discussion paragraphs we wrote to each other for the preferential vote, ask us. I'm sure everyone would be happy to share it. (read: FlareBlitz's is really interesting)

I have already sent Antar a PM requesting the removal of Sand Stream from the ladder, so that should be done soon.

That is all.

[Heysup]

Well there goes FlareBlitz's Choice sand team....................

I better be seeing Synthesis Shaymin, Morning Sun Arcanine, and LO Azelf on every team.

Actually, I am happy we finally made a decision, even though I'm opposed to it.

It'll be interesting to see the actual effects this has on the metagame, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were exceptionally minimal. B2W2 and the new Pokemon we may be getting (chansey? Mienshao?) will have a much greater impact.

[DetroitLolcat]

They banned something and admitted it wasn't broken.

Well I guess that's why this Stage is called "No Surprises"...

Eh, my Choice team was very Stoutland weak, so I guess it works out :P. Also, how will the Stages work now? Will we have Stage 7 for about two weeks until the tier shifts and then Stage 8 in July, or will they just wait for July to move everything?