Son of Hyperion

The mighty land shark returns to OU, and it looks to be able to fit into a team revolving around any weather. It can still function on sand teams even minus its original ability. Pokémon that can be found on rain teams seem to cover its weaknesses well. Hell, I can see it fitting in on hail teams too. But it seems that it's doing most well on sun teams, which makes my stomach happy. Sun has honestly been the weather I most enjoy using, though it does have its fair share of problems. It doesn't help that two of the other three weather effects have inducers that can hit the staple Ninetales for super-effective damage, but there are always ways around that.

So it seems that sun teams have yet another new toy in the infamous shark, with its only recent addition being in the form of the constantly varying sets of Genesect. This is good news. Maybe now there's finally a way that sun teams can gain similar usage as the rain teams that torment them - the usage they deserve. It's no surprise that people are going to be using the newly freed Garchomp, and this team's not going to be an exception.

Now, it's clear that the most used form of sun team focus on the more offensive side of playstyles, though that's not to say that sun stall teams are useless (Electrolyte's sun stall core being an amazingly effective example). Still, they are the most effective, being able to outspeed a huge chunk of the metagame with various Chlorophyll Pokémon and take out chunks of other teams with boosted Fire-type moves. An incredibly obvious, but nonetheless effective, strategy and way to play.

Of course, as is the trend this generation, you must be able to win the weather war to have a chance of winning a battle. This problem bought with it the rise in usage of Dugtrio, being able to do this job almost without fail. However, there are other options than having to resort to this mole with the defences of glass, and that is something that I wanted to focus on with this team. The newly released Shadow Tag Gothitelle always struck me as a good Pokémon, and I do think it should be used more, something that I wanted to show with this team.

But anyway, enough with my near pointless rambling. Here it is, Son of Hyperion, the most successful sun team I've made.







[box]Of course, Ninetales is going to be a staple in any realistic team that wishes to use the effects of the sun. Obviously, the most important member of the team, being able to bring great support to team-members - namely Heatran and Venusaur - in the form of its weather effect. Even with the team's offensive nature, I decided to take a more defensive route with Ninetales, though it's still not going to be winning any awards for taking hits any time soon anyway - it still wouldn't be able to pack as hard of a punch as Politoed or Tyranitar either, choosing between sets for Ninetales is pretty much a case of choosing the best worst layout presented. As is the case with a good number of teams, there is a moderately heavy focus on gaining control of the weather and hopefully simply being able to clean up the match afterwards, and with Sunny Day being included in the set, Ninetales can do its part in working towards the goal itself. Some of you may notice that it is indeed the set used by Trinitrotoluene in his RMT Girl in the Fire, and for a good reason - I myself believe that it is potentially the best set for helping accomplish the goal of winning the weather war, the bulk and potential to cripple opposing physical attackers such as Dragonite with Will-o-Wisp also going a long way in helping the rest of the team out and essentially removing a threat from the battle altogether.

The team obviously has a problem with Dragon-type Pokémon, especially Latios and Latias, and Roar at least gives me some time to work around said threats by phasing them out and hopefully keeping them at bay for a few turns. It's also invaluable against sweepers expecting a free turn to set up whatever boosts they may wish, allowing them to simply steamroll through the team. The obligatory Fire-type Flamethrower, gives Ninetales at least some option against anything that may end up taunting it while also being a solid move that can be used to finish off a good number of Pokémon that she may come up against, while Hidden Power [Rock] can be used to finish off any opposing Dragonite that it's succeeded in bringing to its knees with a burn. While Sunny Day may be a better choice in place of the Hidden Power move chosen, the role of secondary weather control can easily be taken up by Heatran, which has the same move on its own set.

The special, and albeit possibly strange, change to the set is the usage of Shed Shell as the chosen item. Since controlling the weather is a main factor this generation, there are of course Pokémon used to make sure that this turns out well for yourself, with Dugtrio being the main Pokémon used for this purpose. Shed Shell, of course, allows Ninetales to freely switch out of anything that may otherwise cause her to be trapped in play - Arena Trap being the main offender, but also the Shadow Tag ability and various damaging moves. With the duo of Genesect and Dugtrio being as popular, and powerful, as it is, as well as the usage of Dugtrio in general for this purpose, it extends Ninetales' life considerably against teams that may utlise that kind of strategy, and lightens the burden of having to use her so carefully considerably. The EVs are designed to maximise special bulk, while still being able to outspeed certain Pokémon that may be a threat (Adamant Dragonite comes to mind here), while the slightly strange IVs allow for Ninetales' chosen Hidden Power while minimising her Attack stat, reducing damage from confusion and Foul Play - a habit.[/box]


[box]With the main typing behind sun teams being weak to Stealth Rock and Rock-type attacks, a Pokémon being able to use the move Rapid Spin is almost a necessity, and can prove indispensable in almost every battle, with the aforementioned entry hazard being clearly the most popular used. The Bagworm Pokémon is the one chosen for this team, resisting the Dragon-type attacks that give pretty much everything else used a hard time, while the Fire-type weakness is reduced to a non-factor - it was hardly going to live a Fire-type attack anyway, who cares about boosting it. I must admit, I had lost interest in Forretress almost completely until recently - it just seemed to be outclassed by something else on every team of mine that it had a chance of fitting in on. However, I stumbled across this set posted by Scarfwynaut, and fell in love with this weird thing once again. I'd never thought of using Pain Split on this Pokémon, preferring to instead pass the occasional Wish its way, but having a semi-reliable recovery move on the set is actually surprisingly helpful, giving it the ability to at least get some HP back against a Pokémon that it might usually have nothing else to do against - Blissey, for example.

So the first three moveslots in the set were effectively sealed with that - the obligatory Rapid Spin for obvious reasons, Stealth Rock muscling its way into the set over Spikes as the sole entry hazard, and Pain Split for the semi-reliable recovery previously mentioned. Usually for the final move, I would choose Gyro Ball for the surprising-at-times damage output or Volt Switch for keeping up any momentum that might have built up, but opted for the suggested Hidden Power [Ice], a choice that may have also been influenced by the team's minor weakness to standard Gliscor sets - a combination of Earthquake and Ice Fang hitting more than half the team for super-effective damage (Heatran does have Air Balloon, but still). The EVs give Forretress all the physical bulk that it needs, and is generally a much better option over any specially defensive sets that you may see, especially in this metagame with the rising power of common special attackers. When compared to other Rapid Spin users in OU, it was obviously the right one for the job, being the only one to be able to take Dragon-type attacks, set up Stealth Rocks and get rid of opposing entry hazards - the ideal supporting Pokémon for this team.

As far as purpose in battles goes, it finds itself used often against stall teams, being needed to come in almost constantly until the opponent has no way of laying entry hazards on my side of the field - Pain Split aids well in being able to keep it going with this. Against offensive teams, it's going to be used more as a pivot and wall than for using Rapid Spin, forcing switches against anything locked into a move that it can take well, opening up the field for good prediction calls for perhaps a couple of turns. I'm sure that no other Rapid Spinner could do this job as well as Forretress is, with all of them having some kind of flaw that makes them a bad choice in supporting the rest of the team.[/box]


[box]My first chance to use the great "sand shark" in a real team, never paying it much mind in its short stint in OU at the start of BW, and never having anything to do with Ubers last generation. With great stats, movepool and synergy with sun teams in general, it seems like one of the best Pokémon to be used in a team like this, especially with its ability to punch holes in the opponent being appreciated by its team-mates as much as it is. The Yache Berry set gives it much wider usability against more Pokémon, even being able to take a Genesect's Ice Beam when it has to and then KO back with a move of its own, which still takes a good number of people by surprise, even though I'm sure this is going to become the most used Garchomp set with its return. While the team does indeed lack real speed, I felt that a Choice Scarf set just didn't fit the needs of the team that well, with it being forced out by a surprising number of opponents, ending in wasted turns and opporunities. Similarly, while a Choice Band set bought simply amazing amounts of raw power, its inability to switch moves once again punished me - on a team that's not seemingly fond of taking any real attacks, being forced to switch is not a good thing in any way. The YacheChomp set gives it a chance to boost its Attack to levels unreachable by the Choice Band set, while retaining the ability to switch moves, and do it directly in front of something that may threaten it with an Ice-type move.

Swords Dance is the boosting move of choice here, deciding that, while the team was desparate for more speed, Garchomp already bought it with the stat maxed out. With that set, the other three moveslots were a simple case of providing good coverage and retaining usefulness in general. The two great STABs that Garchomp has in Ground-type and Dragon-type moves were the most obvious to play on, and with Earthquake and Outrage bought in, the final slot requires a good look around in its decent movepool. I didn't really think that I'd be using Fire Fang on a serious set any time soon, but boosted by the sun and a Swords Dance or two, it decimates even the bulkiest Skarmory with no problems at all if Stealth Rocks are active to break the opponent's Sturdy. Not a conventional wallbreaker, but still just managed to make its way through with raw power. Of course, this relies on keeping the weather on my side, as mentioned, a large task.

The EVs are plain, maximising Speed and Attack, with the extra four thrown into Special Defence which, along with the reduced Defence IVs, enable it to survive an Ice Beam from Genesect by forcing it to gain a boost to its Attack (with the Yache Berry, the main point of the set, weakening that Ice-type move even further).

Garchomp was the Pokémon that I wanted to build the entire team around, along with Ninetales, never having a chance to use it in anger before, and it has not disappointed in any way. The power that it brings is great, the speed at which it does it is decent, and the number of things that it can set up on and then lead into breaking is simply horrendous. As with Forretress, I'm positive that nothing can be suggested that could do this job any better than this reborn sun shark.[/box]


[box]The first of two trappers in the team, and one way to win the weather war, comes in the form of Heatran. While it may not pack as much of a punch as Gothitelle (debatable if sun is the prevailing weather), it still has almost no problem doing its job. I rarely end up using a Heatran set outside of the standard specially defensive set, which seemed too slow for the team, with the role that set fills being spread across a couple of Pokémon in the team as it stands now. Choice Scarf sets can be used well, but generally still fall to the same obstacle of priority moves as all other sets - the team also already had Venusaur and Garchomp for raw speed if that would become a huge issue. There was a set that I saw mentioned that included the use of Eruption and Choice Specs, which I thought looked hilarious, but suffered the exact same problem as the defensive set in the lack of speed (made worse by the need for a Quiet nature to keep it 100% legit). Other sets such as TormenTran just wouldn't fit in with the offensive nature of the rest of the team, being too similar bulk-wise to Forretress, and would simply end up getting in the way at the best of times, and being death fodder at the worst. A set used to trap other weather starters and being able to control the weather itself would be vital to the team succeeding, and so the set was decided. Being able to stop three opposing weather inducers dead at the best, trapper Heatran was implemented.

It's hard to pick out which of the moves on this set stand out as the "most important", as they all see a good deal of use in almost every battle. Sunny Day allows Heatran to switch around the weather itself, lightening the load placed on Ninetales, and allowing its full range of the set's attacks to be used to their full advantage. Magma Storm, an underrated move at best (possibly due to the not exactly perfect accuracy), is what makes the set, being a powerful move made only more impressive in the sunny weather, negating the opponent's Leftovers recovery and, more importantly, trapping them in for a few turns. The number of turns that the opponent is stationary for often doesn't matter, as Heatran will have changed the weather by then and struck back with either a one-turn Solarbeam, or an Earth power - the former OHKOing offensive sets from Politoed or the sandstorm inducers, and 2HKOing more defensive variants, while fearing almost nothing due to either the weather weakening the Water-type moves carried by the toad of battle, or the Air Balloon protecting it from any Earthquakes.

While its main use is to help aid in controlling the sun, it still has a great use against teams that choose to employ no weather at all in their tactics, being able to throw around its powerful moves without having to fear a sudden change in the weather at all, turning it into a fearsome wallbreaker. It also has a good use in being able to help out the team versus opposing Heatran, with sun teams more often than not being walled completely by the Pokémon (this team doesn't seem to be, but it can still help on occasion), being able to switch into them without any fear and then OHKO back with Earth Power. The EVs for this set would be obvious, wanting to keep Heatran as fast and as powerful as possible - therefore, a common and simple 252/4/252 spread is easily enough to make sure that it does its job as best as it can. Coupled with Gothitelle, the weather war can be won with relative ease, the two being able to take on every other weather inducer that the team may face while not fearing much in return.[/box]

[box]Of course a team built in the sun is going to end up using something that benefits directly from it, and this is no exception. The aim was to make a sun team that could win the weather war and not be faced with all the same problems as most others. High up on the list of problems was, of course, opposing Heatran, that manage to wall the majority of other sun teams. Mixed Venusaur is a great way of ensuring that does not happen, with it being one of the most obvious, and greatest Heatran lure that a team could ask for. Most people still switch Heatran into Venusaur, expecting to wall the common set of Sludge Bomb, Hidden Power [Fire] and Solarbeam, a lot of the time not even caring if they end up breaking their Air Balloon in the process of having pathetic portions of their HP taken away while switching, which is where this set puts itself. As soon as they do that, they're hit with an Earthquake, easily OHKOing. As well as that, the team looked like it would have some problems with Blissey and Chansey, not actually having a Fighting-type move strong enough to break through them and, if Garchomp wasn't around for some reason, actually no physical moves at all, which is also where Venusaur can make itself known. In a one-on-one situation, given that the opposing Blissey or Chansey lack Thunder Wave, Venusaur can win easily by boosting up and taking away their HP with a still reasonably strong Earthquake, while still having a way to recover HP lost due to Life Orb and Seismic Toss.

With the main appeal of this set being the fact that it can take Heatran by surprise, Earthquake was an obvious choice, as well as Growth for the impressive +2 boost that it gives both offensive stats under the sun. Giga Drain now being legal with Chlorophyll in BW2 made Venusaur's life a lot easier, with the recoil from its Life Orb now being a lot less of a problem, and gives Venusaur a great chance against Pokémon such as the aforementioned pink blobs that used to be able to easily wall it. The final slot was, of course, a toss-up between Hidden Power [Fire] and Hidden Power [Ice], with the latter being chosen in the end to help with the team's weakness to Dragon-types. While the boosted Hidden Power is missed, Venusaur can still push through whatever it took care of with a boost or two - Ferrothorn, for example. Getting the EVs right for a mixed set on any Pokémon can be tricky, but thankfully this turned out to be pretty easy. 180 Speed EVs give Venusaur enough Speed to outrun +2 Jolly Cloyster under the sun, which can take the majority of the team apart otherwise, as well as Jolly Choice Scarf Garchomp and other +1 Dragon-types.

As mentioned, as well as being able to take on opposing Heatran that wall other sets completely, this Venusaur can also muscle its way through opposing special walls, giving it a special place on the team and working extremely well with Garchomp in that respect, both being fast and powerful Pokémon that can dispose of the opponent semi-easily. While Sleep Powder can be used well, I intended for this Venusaur to be more of a full-on sweeper than a Pokémon that occasionally comes in, puts something to sleep, punches a small hole somewhere then run away. Being able to get the surprise revenge kill, or even just a straight up kill on an unsuspecting Heatran, can often end up turning the tide and tone of the battle entirely in the team's favour, as well as being able to provide almost constant protection against any high-powered Terrakion or Landorus, as well as the Dragon-types that give the team hell.[/box]


[box]Deciding which Pokémon is the star of this team is a difficult choice between Garchomp and Gothitelle. One can punch huge holes in most things and then go on to wreak havoc from there, and one can turn rainy skies into an immediate advantage for the team, as well as almost single-handedly defeat stall teams. Gothitelle works amazingly well with Garchomp, I'd say possibly even better than any other trapper used at the moment, and it is such a shame that it's not used more. It's not the fastest thing in the game, nor is it the bulkiest or most powerful, but who cares? It's fast enough, it's bulky enough and it's powerful enough. It does its job incredibly well, and I couldn't ask for anything else from a Pokémon that does this kind of thing. The team sorely needed a dedicted trapper to work alongside Heatran, one that could open up a hole even easier to allow Venusaur or Garchomp to clean up the opponent's team, and the choices are few and far between. There's the now common Dugtrio that can't take any hit at all, and that fears entry hazards making its item useless. There's Wobbuffet that can take almost anything that's thrown at it, but can't dish anything out itself, and then there's Gothitelle, an acceptable mix of the two. It can pack a solid punch, especially with Choice Specs, and can take a hit even when uninvested with its base 110 Special Defence. As well as that, a movepool with just what's needed to succeed means that a better Pokémon to do exactly what this girl does is near impossible.

Now, while its stats aren't exactly terrible, they are not pushing the boundaries of anything in particular. 65 base Speed means that it's not going to be outspeeding anything notable any time soon, and the people using Choice Scarf variants are honestly wasting their time. The real way forward is to use a bulkier Specs set, with her even uninvested defensive stats being enough to take whatever she might have to. For example, while she may not be able to take a rain-boosted Hydro Pump from a Choice Scarf or Specs Politoed, it can take a rain-boosted Scald from a more defensive set with ease, and then OHKO back with Thunderbolt no matter the opponent's EVs. Hidden Power [Fighting] can also OHKO 252/252 SDef Tyranitar 100% of the time with Stealth Rocks up. Underrated, definitely, and it packs a hell of a punch. There are small problems when facing opposing specially defensive Hippowdon, with her Hidden Power only 2HKOing with Stealth Rocks active, but even that's not exactly bad by any means.

So how I play her finally matters. I did mention that she can't stand up to rain-boosted Hydro Pumps from Politoed but, even though this situation hasn't come up as often as I'd feared, there is a solution. To win the weather war in this situation, if there is genuinely no other option, I death fodder my Ninetales. If its HP is low enough, a Politoed should still be able to KO it even with sun active as it switches in, which is where I know the war is won. Sending out Gothitelle in response to that, the opponent's Politoed is not trapped in play, locked into Hydro Pump in the sun. Granted, she still takes a large amount of damage from this, but the weather war is won with her Thunderbolt comfortably OHKOing offensive variants of Politoed, by you giving up your Ninetales for death fodder. They called me mad.

So Thunderbolt is key for beating Politoed, as is Hidden Power [Fighting] for ridding the opponent's team of Tyranitar and, to an extent, Hippowdon. That leaves two moveslots taken up by Psyshock and Trick. The former gives some insurance against any Keldeo that may end up becoming tricky (though this is rare), as well as doing a good deal of damage against Blissey. The latter is also used for crippling stall teams, which Gothitelle does well. Just as Heatran has its secondary use as a wallbreaker, so does Gothitelle, albeit in a different way. With no way for an opposing bulky Pokémon to switch out, and with their item being replaced with Choice Specs, that most likely spells the end for them. This is an extra way in making sure that Hippowdon isn't a problem, as well as another method of getting rid of Blissey, which is surely welcome on any team. Due to her low Speed stat, I was free to fully maximise Gothitelle's Special Attack and invest a good number in her HP, giving her as much bulk as I could afford. Despite the lowered EVs in her Speed and a neutral nature, the 48 EVs in that stat at least let her outspeed Calm Politoed, which makes her job of getting rid of it a lot easier. Along with Heatran, as mentioned, the two can almost ensure that the weather is going to smile on this team, giving it the easiest time in winning the battle. Though I will accept suggestions, this slot in the team isn't something that I'm open to changing.[/box]


So there it is. The sun shark rearing its ugly head. There's not really much else I can say about the actual team, and I'm genuinely glad that it looks like Garchomp is going to be fitting in well on something that isn't a team built around sand, or any other weather effect for that matter. Sun has been seen as the second weather behind rain, but maybe how it has the tools at its disposal to actually be able to take the fight right to it, something that I would very much enjoy seeing myself. While it might not be the best team I've ever made myself, it's without a doubt the best sun team I've made, and it's been so much fun to use, mostly because of another underrated Pokémon being used in there - one that should be used a lot more than it currently is, in fact. I like to think that I've even been able to work around some issues that a lot of sun teams have, though I have opened myself up for unwanted attention from certain Dragon-types (I'm thinking of Latios/Latias mainly). Nothing that can't be fixed with a little welcome help from everybody reading, though.

I'm just going to finish this off now because my laptop is almost dead by saying that I'd like to thank Trinitrotoluene, whose suggestions have made the team a lot better than I could make it by myself. Seriously, thank you for everything you've been doing for me. It's really been making me a lot better at the game in general. As well as him, I have a few others to thank on another forum who definitely know who they are if they're reading, and anybody on this forum that I've been asking questions to. All the input I've been given from various people has been very helpful, so thank you all. Please, do feel free to comment and make suggestions, and even leave a Luvdisc if you really want. Thank you all for reading.

Any intelligent player who sees their opponent switch a Heatran in on their weather starter is gonna know something's up and they wont want to risk losing their weather starter without revealing more of your set. At least Gothitelle has Shadow Tag and can actually trap stuff; there is nothing stopping the opponent from switching out after you switch in Heatran.

The only way this would work is if your opponent stayed in/switched their weather starter in on Heatran, but why would they do that? Every rain and sand team has - at the very least - one other team member that would be sent out to handle him before they sent out their weather starter. Also, Heatran commonly carry Earth Power and HP Grass, meaning Tyranitar and Politoed will think twice about switching in anyway.

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Politoed (+SpAtk) Hydro Pump vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Heatran (Sunshine): 74.07% - 87.96%
2 hits to KO

Not exactly the weak attack you described. SpecsToed is the most common set. Even Surf 2HKO's, so that Heatran can only stop defensive Politoed.

If this set works, I'd need to see exceptional battle logs to prove it. I think you'd just be better off using Dugtrio, who can actually trap without any team support or the need for blind luck.

Red3mpti0n said:

Any intelligent player who sees their opponent switch a Heatran in on their weather starter is gonna know something's up and they wont want to risk losing their weather starter without revealing more of your set. At least Gothitelle has Shadow Tag and can actually trap stuff; there is nothing stopping the opponent from switching out after you switch in Heatran.

The only way this would work is if your opponent stayed in/switched their weather starter in on Heatran, but why would they do that? Every rain and sand team has - at the very least - one other team member that would be sent out to handle him before they sent out their weather starter. Also, Heatran commonly carry Earth Power and HP Grass, meaning Tyranitar and Politoed will think twice about switching in anyway.

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Politoed (+SpAtk) Hydro Pump vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Heatran (Sunshine): 74.07% - 87.96%
2 hits to KO

Not exactly the weak attack you described. SpecsToed is the most common set. Even Surf 2HKO's, so that Heatran can only stop defensive Politoed.

If this set works, I'd need to see exceptional battle logs to prove it. I think you'd just be better off using Dugtrio, who can actually trap without any team support or the need for blind luck.

Click to expand...

Well, I wouldn't be switching Heatran into a Politoed, that's just silly and would be simply asking for it to go wrong. Your entire post there is assuming that I'm some kind of sub-par player that would make stupid errors and miscalculations, which I am not. Just because a team has another member to deal with a Heatran, it doesn't mean they are going to go for the switch anyway.

I also feel the need to mention that I did not specify any "weak" attack. In fact, the only time I even remember mentioned Specs Toed Hydro Pump at all was talking about Gothitelle, so I don't see where you're getting the fact that I said it was weak from at all.

How about you test the set yourself instead of just expecting some "exceptional battle logs"? I appreciate your doubt over whether or not the set I have chosen works, but I assure you it does, and can't see myself replacing it any time soon. Other than that, this an RMT thread, not a thread for knocking one set that you've not tried.

Thank you for your comment.

Politoed usage: 15.55%
Politoed @ Leftovers: 18.41%
Politoed @ Choice Specs: 7.01%

Lol at that guy^

Anyway, this is one of the most solid Sun teams I've seen recently, love the use of Gothitelle combined with mixed Venu. The only moderate problems I can see are Tornadus, and Latios / Latias with Recover (which allows them to get past Heatran, especially CM Latias). Tornadus can be kinda handled with Forretress in Sun, Heatran can take a Hurricane, Ninetales can sort of check it if the weather war is won, and Venusaur can revenge kill after SR and some LO recoil. Still potentially a major issue though if the weather war isn't yet decided.

Lati@s are even more dangerous. CM Latias walls Heatran and sets up. However, you can beat it if the opponent doesn't play cautiously enough, by using WoW + Roar Ninetales and Trick on Gothitelle. LO Latios with Recover is in the same boat, but LO + Magma Storm in Sun + trap damage makes it much harder to break Heatran. If it does, though, it OHKO's everything else on the team after SR damage.

Unfortunately these are going to have to be "threats to be aware of" rather than issues we can fix. You could use ScarfChomp to reliably check them but I don't think it's the best change for the team.

Again, really nice team, congrats and luvdisc'd :)

Hi Intergalactic !

Your team seems cool for sure, I tried Gothitelle in a sun team (along with Duggy and Genesect :D ), and it works really well.
However I see that nobody use Trick along with CM.
That's why I'd propose you to try a Signal Beam/TBolt/CM/Trick set, putting enough HP to survive a Genesect U-Turn at +1 (max HP should do it). With Signal you can still kill Tyranitar, and you keep the TBolt for the Toed issue. You lose a Stab that can help you against Blissey but whatever there isn't much a Tricked Blissey can do to you as most of the time they lock themself into a heal or a statut move.

Moving on your Forrestress, I find really sad that you got a trapper but no Volt-Turner. Here you could just change this Pain Split for Volt-Switch. And probably remove these Speed EVs for Def (it's cool to Volt-Switch after tanking an atack for Gothitelle) and even remove the IVs in Speed and change the nature to "outslow" Ferrothorns that are not using GyroBall.
I really doubt Pain Split is so good in a Sun Team where games are fast paced, since you will probably have only one turn (if you put Forretress to wall something) to do something before they put a pokemon that kil Forretress. So you better put Rocks/Spin/give memento/Trap instead of healing yourself.

For your Heatran, I'd really change these Speed IVs, there are alot of cool spreads like 252 HP / 100 Def so you can take some physical damage, but I don't think you need all that Speed.

For your Venusaur I'd go full Special you wont be able to kill Heatran anymore, this is true but Heatran is anyway an open door to your Garchomp.
With that you could go for the classical HP Fire/GigaD/SleepPowder/Growth leaving you a reliable room with the Sleep Turn to actually Growth. You'd gain alot in power.
In fact I really dislike this Venusaur set because he got too much to do in one pokemon, I tried it and it didn't work well at all. You will have almost no room to Growth and you will do no damage without this boost (given these EVs, the nature).
And, let's say a Genesect comes in front of you, well you can do nothing to him and this is what bothers me the most.



Now for the threats, Latios is really a massiv pain for you. True, you outspeed him at this point with Venusaur if Latios is scarfed. But without the Growth boost you are far from killing Latios with Hidden Power Ice. In fact even with Growth this isn't a sure 0HKO.
So basically if your enemy manage to not let you Growth, your Venusaur will have such a hard time to sweep effectively.
Let's say you give Hidden Power Ice to Heatran, you'd 2HKO Latios after SR damage. And let's say you give 252 HP to Heatran, you'd only be 4HKO by Latios with Surf under Sun.

By the way Shiftry can be an interesting Sun Sweeper with better mixed offensive stats at the cost of defense, since he's not weak to the version of Latios used in Rain and can actually outspeed the scarf version and 0HKO it straight with Dark Pulse after SR damage. Moreover he screws Heatran with Nature's Force.


tl;dr

Gothitelle set : CM/TBolt/SignalBeam/Trick with 252EVs HP
Forretress : Volt-Switch > Pain Split => 0EVs/IVs Speed
Heatran : Bulkier EVs spread by using EVs invested in Speed and Hidden Power Ice > Solar Beam
Venusaur : switch him for the classical special atacker set with Sleep Powder.


Hope I helped.

EDIT : I guess I did not since noone gives a flying duck :DDDDDDDD

You have an extra point in your Ninetales spread. I'm gonna assume that its 160 HP/ 240 SDef / 108 Spe, in which case a spread of 160 HP / 136 SDef / 212 Spd with a Calm nature would be more efficient.

Another quick suggestion I have is to give your Forry 2 Speed IVs to power up gyroball while retaining the highest base power for HP Ice.

My last suggestion would be to try Energy Ball over thunderbolt on Gothitelle. Hippowdown doesnt take much damage from hp fighting and can easily just slack off the damage and whirlwind you away. Energy Ball can deal significant amounts of damage to it, a good chance of a 2hko. There's also a chance to get the spdef drop. Against physically defensive variants it does over 70% easily. HP Fighting is a 4hko on physical hippo, and that's not going to be enough to take it out of the game.

GL with your team.

Chimpakt said:

You have an extra point in your Ninetales spread. I'm gonna assume that its 160 HP/ 240 SDef / 108 Spe, in which case a spread of 160 HP / 136 SDef / 212 Spd with a Calm nature would be more efficient.

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Yeah, my mistake. Thanks for that, I'll change the EV spread to that.

Chimpakt said:

Another quick suggestion I have is to give your Forry 2 Speed IVs to power up gyroball while retaining the highest base power for HP Ice.

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Forretress does not have Gyro Ball.

Chimpakt said:

My last suggestion would be to try Energy Ball over thunderbolt on Gothitelle. Hippowdown doesnt take much damage from hp fighting and can easily just slack off the damage and whirlwind you away. Energy Ball can deal significant amounts of damage to it, a good chance of a 2hko.

calc

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Energy Ball vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon (+SpDef) : 48.57% - 57.62% (2-3 hits to KO)

There's also a chance to get the spdef drop. Against physically defensive variants it does over 70% easily. HP Fighting is a 4hko on physical hippo, and that's not going to be enough to take it out of the game.

GL with your team.

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I did try out Energy Ball before opting to go with Thunderbolt initially, for the reason that you gave of being able to do more damage to Hippowdon, but I actually ended up not seeing one at all during testing. I'll try it out again, but I'd rather go with Thunderbolt for the better coverage.

Thanks man.

Wow Intergalatic, this is a very solid team. Plenty of unique sets -- great to see a sun team that deviates from the standard Lavos Sun build haha.

My only nitpick is that you have a Spe IV of 30 on Venusaur. You should change that to 30 Att IV, 30 Def IV. This still gives a 70 Base Power HP Ice, while letting you speed tie with other Venusaurs. Great team, and a Luvdisc for you!

EDIT: Well, you aren't going to be speed tying with most Venusaurs, but the extra point may come in handy some time. Also, how do you deal with Scarf Terrakion? He does major damage to most of the team with Stone Edge, and can't really be trapped by Gothitelle effectively since she is KO'd.

I'm pretty sure you got it wrong regarding Gothitelle's damage output with HP Fighting.

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Fighting vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Hippowdon: 31.67% - 37.38%
That is vs a physically defensive Hippowdon.
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Fighting vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Tyranitar: 53.47% - 63.37%
That is vs Tyranitar in the sand.

While you can successfully weaken Tyranitar to the point where it's much easier to win the weather war, there is no way you can OHKO a specially defensive Tyranitar. Also, you won't be winning vs Hippowdon unless you get a crit.
However, there is an easy solution for this. If your main goal is to trap the two aforementioned pokemon, just try out Grass Knot over HP Fighting. It is only slightly weaker than HP Fighting vs Tyranitar (120 x 2 = 240, compared to 70 x 4 = 280), not to mention you don't have to worry about Chople Ttar. It also hits Hippowdon much harder.

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Grass Knot vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Tyranitar: 45.05% - 53.47%
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Grass Knot vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon (+SpDef) : 72.86% - 86.19% (SpDef Hippowdon)

I would argue that removing Hippowdon is much harder for this team than Tyranitar, as Hippowdon can effortlessly slack off the damage. In addition, grass knot can prove useful vs things like SpDef Jellicent and the likes.
That being said, great job on utilizing Garchomp in the sun :] !

superstar said:

Wow Intergalatic, this is a very solid team. Plenty of unique sets -- great to see a sun team that deviates from the standard Lavos Sun build haha.

My only nitpick is that you have a Spe IV of 30 on Venusaur. You should change that to 30 Att IV, 30 Def IV. This still gives a 70 Base Power HP Ice, while letting you speed tie with other Venusaurs. Great team, and a Luvdisc for you!

EDIT: Well, you aren't going to be speed tying with most Venusaurs, but the extra point may come in handy some time. Also, how do you deal with Scarf Terrakion? He does major damage to most of the team with Stone Edge, and can't really be trapped by Gothitelle effectively since she is KO'd.

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I'm honestly too tired to look up Speed tiers right now, but I'm pretty sure that the EVs and IVs are taking into account that it's outspeeding what it needs to, and there's nothing that that one solitary stat point that a 31 Speed IV would be giving me would be making a difference to. If it was to Speed tie with opposing Venusaur, then it would be worth having 31 Speed IVs, but like you said, I won't be doing that anyway.

Thanks for the comment.

gr8astard said:

I'm pretty sure you got it wrong regarding Gothitelle's damage output with HP Fighting.

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Fighting vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Hippowdon: 31.67% - 37.38%
That is vs a physically defensive Hippowdon.

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Fighting vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Tyranitar: 53.47% - 63.37%
That is vs Tyranitar in the sand.

While you can successfully weaken Tyranitar to the point where it's much easier to win the weather war, there is no way you can OHKO a specially defensive Tyranitar. Also, you won't be winning vs Hippowdon unless you get a crit.

However, there is an easy solution for this. If your main goal is to trap the two aforementioned pokemon, just try out Grass Knot over HP Fighting. It is only slightly weaker than HP Fighting vs Tyranitar (120 x 2 = 240, compared to 70 x 4 = 280), not to mention you don't have to worry about Chople Ttar. It also hits Hippowdon much harder.

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Grass Knot vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Tyranitar: 45.05% - 53.47%
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Grass Knot vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon (+SpDef) : 72.86% - 86.19% (SpDef Hippowdon)

I would argue that removing Hippowdon is much harder for this team than Tyranitar, as Hippowdon can effortlessly slack off the damage. In addition, grass knot can prove useful vs things like SpDef Jellicent and the likes.

That being said, great job on utilizing Garchomp in the sun :] !

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Yeah, I have been looking at the damage calculations through the day and I'm pretty sure I went wrong somewhere too (though I don't exactly know how). But what can I say, I was writing the analysis of all the Pokémon between 5 and 7 am this morning. I want to say that I meant Hidden Power [Fighting] OHKOs offensive Tyranitar sets with Stealth Rock up, but it just barely falls short of that. Oh well, small error.

That being said, Gothitelle does still deal with SDef Tyranitar if she's at full HP (even with Stealth Rocks up, actually), with a Crunch coming from that set doing only 70-82% to her, while she can outspeed those sets and 2HKO back.

If we're talking about going with Grass Knot over Hidden Power [Fighting], then I will give it a go as it does seem like a good choice, and also gives Gothitelle at least something to use against Gastrodon or Quagsire. It's just a good thing that Hippowdon's not as common as it probably should be, right?

Thanks for the comments and kind words, though. It's appreciated.

Your team is definitely fairly dependent on sun, but I don't think that warrants the use of a Shed Shell on Ninetales. The only common teams that pack Dugtrio are standard sun and standard rain, and for the former, Ninetales does absolutely nothing for your team, while for the latter, you should be able to predict around Dugtrio. I think that if you're going to stick with your specially defensive set, go with Leftovers instead. If you really like the ease of prediction that Shed Shell provides, then just use an offensive set, because let's be true to ourselves: Ninetales isn't tanking very many hits. In fact, you want to keep opposing weather at bay before you even bring out Ninetales, so there shouldn't be any real need for Shed Shell. Additionally, the extra insurance that Gothitelle and Sunny Day Heatran provide means that you can sweep effectively once the opposing team is worn down by simply sacking something to Tyranitar and trapping it, so weather itself shouldn't be a major issue. I would also run Hidden Power Fighting to hit Heatran, Tyranitar, and Hydreigon a bit harder but if you are suffering from Volcarona problems (which is plausible), then keep Hidden Power Rock.

Because you're running Yache Berry on your Garchomp, I definitely don't think that dropping 20 IVs from Defense is a good idea. Think about it this way, you're wasting the equivalent of 80 EVs. That's a lot. Honestly, Garchomp isn't even that great of a sweeper in this metagame. It already is outpaced by many of the common BW2 threats, and most teams nowadays run two Choice Scarf users, so its base 102 Speed is not taking it anywhere, any time soon. I would simply forgo the Swords Dance set for a Choice Band set to help break holes in the opposing team. The cool think about the Choice Band set is that it resists Rock-type attacks, so even if you lose Forretress early on in the match, it can still repeatedly switch in when Stealth Rock is in play. Just run a Choice Band and use Stone Edge over Swords Dance and you're set. I don't think you'll miss much of Garchomp's sweeping because quite frankly, it's just not considered a fast Pokemon anymore. I didn't recommend a Choice Scarf set because that lacks power, and a Choice Band set to break walls seems more adequate.

Pain Split on Forretress seems useless when you can use Volt Switch in its place, especially considering that Forretress doesn't really have many Pokemon it can Pain Split effectively on. Most attacks that are used against it will 2HKO, and you won't have much time to react. Before you know it, you don't have a Forretress, and sometimes this can even leave hazards on the field which is dangerous for sun teams. I prefer using Volt Switch because it gives you a lot of momentum, which in turn you can ride with your team's good synergy. You've invested in Special Attack for Hidden Power Ice already, so this is definitely not a major change, especially because it can stop some common Pokemon from setting up Substitute directly in front of Forretress. Anyways, this is a really solid team and I had fun reading it. Good luck, I hope I helped.

I found this team really interesting, so I did a few calcs with it. First of all, I don't know what Damage Calculator you're using, but I tried Gothitelle's Specs TBolt vs Defensive Politoed and I got this:

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Politoed: 71,35% - 84,38% (2 hits to KO).

It's not an OHKO on a physically defensive Politoed, and definitely not on a Specially Defensive one, despite what your analysis says. HOWEVER, I looked at the comments and tried Grass Knot over TBolt, and I got this:

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Grass Knot vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Politoed: 90,1% - 106,25% (37,5% chance to OHKO)

100% OHKO with rocks up. So my suggestion is to change Thunderbolt for Grass Knot on Goth, and that deals with Poli, Hippowdon AND T-Tar. With that being the case, you can have a different Hidden Power for different threats. Maybe HP Ice or HP Fire? With HP Fire you can trap Genesect locked into a non-Bug move and KO it, allowing more leeway for a Garchomp sweep, and with HP Ice you may be able to trap and kill Dragons before they set up. Another alternative is HP Ground for opposing Heatran, though you already have other checks for those. Just my two cents.

Anyways, this looks like a fun team to use. I'll definitely be testing it out at some point.

EDIT: Does Grass Knot have less power than T-Bolt? In that case I need to get a better damage calculator.
EDIT2: Okay, I just looked it up. My bad. T-Bolt > Grass Knot for Politoed. I still prefer Grass Knot > HP Fighting though.

Grass knot doesn't have full power against Politoed; it actually does less than tbolt.

Well, this is obviously a very solid team here; good job. Gothitelle is absolutely brilliant here, and the rest of your team really supports it. However, it does have its problems. One, I very very rarely had to switch moves on Garchomp; what I usually did was get a kill and GET THE FUCK OUT. Although a yache SDchomp is a solid set to use here, I found that the metagame just hates it, with many things either walling its outrages and crippling it or just outright outspeeding and OHKOing. In addition, things such as Lati@s and Tornadus were absolute pains for this team to handle, forcing me to sac a poke to get sun up and force them out. To fix this, I'm going to have to recommend Scarf Garchomp over your current set. This gives you a much needed revenge killer outside of sun, enabling you to beat the aforementioned threats and revenging runaway dragons if venu dies. You do lose a sweeper, but in all honesty, the only things you want a sweeperchomp for is sweeping lategame, and I find venusaur does a better job at that. You do also flatten skarmbliss when running a sweeper set, but gothitelle can cripple bliss with trick for heatran to destroy.

Second, use Hidden Power [Ice] over Pain split on Forry; I never had a chance to use it and it just seems frivolous. What are you recovering off of, Blissey? Also change to Grass Knot over Hidden Power [Fighting] on Gothitelle; it still cripples the motherfucker known as Tyranitar while you now don't have to worry about Hippowdons and Chopletars as much.

Well, that's my rate. GL with the team!

Harsha said:

Your team is definitely fairly dependent on sun, but I don't think that warrants the use of a Shed Shell on Ninetales. The only common teams that pack Dugtrio are standard sun and standard rain, and for the former, Ninetales does absolutely nothing for your team, while for the latter, you should be able to predict around Dugtrio. I think that if you're going to stick with your specially defensive set, go with Leftovers instead. If you really like the ease of prediction that Shed Shell provides, then just use an offensive set, because let's be true to ourselves: Ninetales isn't tanking very many hits. In fact, you want to keep opposing weather at bay before you even bring out Ninetales, so there shouldn't be any real need for Shed Shell. Additionally, the extra insurance that Gothitelle and Sunny Day Heatran provide means that you can sweep effectively once the opposing team is worn down by simply sacking something to Tyranitar and trapping it, so weather itself shouldn't be a major issue. I would also run Hidden Power Fighting to hit Heatran, Tyranitar, and Hydreigon a bit harder but if you are suffering from Volcarona problems (which is plausible), then keep Hidden Power Rock.

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I'd definitely stick with the more defensive set on Ninetales. While it still can't exactly take much of a hit, I think it's a much better role for it than doing anything offensive. It's not so much that I need the prediction eased, I just prefer the insurance that it gives since this team really does fear rain teams - the common moves used on those teams hit most Pokémon I use for super-effective damage. I have been considering switching back to Leftovers, so I guess I will with your advice. I do prefer to keep Hidden Power [Rock] on Ninetales over any other type, as I do have a weakness to Volcarona. Heatran, Hydreigon and Tyranitar can all be dealt with by other members of the team, while Volcarona is more of a threat than any of them.

Harsha said:

Because you're running Yache Berry on your Garchomp, I definitely don't think that dropping 20 IVs from Defense is a good idea. Think about it this way, you're wasting the equivalent of 80 EVs. That's a lot. Honestly, Garchomp isn't even that great of a sweeper in this metagame. It already is outpaced by many of the common BW2 threats, and most teams nowadays run two Choice Scarf users, so its base 102 Speed is not taking it anywhere, any time soon. I would simply forgo the Swords Dance set for a Choice Band set to help break holes in the opposing team. The cool think about the Choice Band set is that it resists Rock-type attacks, so even if you lose Forretress early on in the match, it can still repeatedly switch in when Stealth Rock is in play. Just run a Choice Band and use Stone Edge over Swords Dance and you're set. I don't think you'll miss much of Garchomp's sweeping because quite frankly, it's just not considered a fast Pokemon anymore. I didn't recommend a Choice Scarf set because that lacks power, and a Choice Band set to break walls seems more adequate.

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The power that a Choice Band set would bring would be great, 2HKOing Skarmory with the sun up would also be a bonus since the only other sweeper on the team lacks its usual Hidden Power [Fire]. I've been thinking more recently about the speed of the team in general though, and it's been made clear that it's just not fast enough. I will give a Choice Band set a go, but what do you think about trying out a Choice Scarf set too? As bubbly said, it would reliably check the biggest threats to the team which are currently Latias and Latios, and at the same time do the same for Volcarona.

Harsha said:

Pain Split on Forretress seems useless when you can use Volt Switch in its place, especially considering that Forretress doesn't really have many Pokemon it can Pain Split effectively on. Most attacks that are used against it will 2HKO, and you won't have much time to react. Before you know it, you don't have a Forretress, and sometimes this can even leave hazards on the field which is dangerous for sun teams. I prefer using Volt Switch because it gives you a lot of momentum, which in turn you can ride with your team's good synergy. You've invested in Special Attack for Hidden Power Ice already, so this is definitely not a major change, especially because it can stop some common Pokemon from setting up Substitute directly in front of Forretress. Anyways, this is a really solid team and I had fun reading it. Good luck, I hope I helped.

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I don't see the appeal of Volt Switch, especially not on this team. I can see that with it most likely moving last it would give me a chance to bring something else in with minimum damage, but that's not that hard at the best of times anyway. However, I will give it a go. Thanks for the help and kind words, Harsha.

ThePhalanx said:

I found this team really interesting, so I did a few calcs with it. First of all, I don't know what Damage Calculator you're using, but I tried Gothitelle's Specs TBolt vs Defensive Politoed and I got this:

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Politoed: 71,35% - 84,38% (2 hits to KO).

It's not an OHKO on a physically defensive Politoed, and definitely not on a Specially Defensive one, despite what your analysis says. HOWEVER, I looked at the comments and tried Grass Knot over TBolt, and I got this:

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gothitelle (+SpAtk) Grass Knot vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Politoed: 90,1% - 106,25% (37,5% chance to OHKO)

100% OHKO with rocks up. So my suggestion is to change Thunderbolt for Grass Knot on Goth, and that deals with Poli, Hippowdon AND T-Tar. With that being the case, you can have a different Hidden Power for different threats. Maybe HP Ice or HP Fire? With HP Fire you can trap Genesect locked into a non-Bug move and KO it, allowing more leeway for a Garchomp sweep, and with HP Ice you may be able to trap and kill Dragons before they set up. Another alternative is HP Ground for opposing Heatran, though you already have other checks for those. Just my two cents.

Anyways, this looks like a fun team to use. I'll definitely be testing it out at some point.

EDIT: Does Grass Knot have less power than T-Bolt? In that case I need to get a better damage calculator.
EDIT2: Okay, I just looked it up. My bad. T-Bolt > Grass Knot for Politoed. I still prefer Grass Knot > HP Fighting though.

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Yeah, I mentioned in a previous post that I managed to somehow get a load of the damage calculations wrong. As I said, it was the stupid hours of the morning, and I have been meaning to redo them all and change them in the descriptions. I do have other counters for Heatran and Dragon-types, but I will also consider Hidden Power [Fire] there. It would definitely help against Genesect, as you mentioned (I do have trouble with it, only Heatran can really take it on and it's screwed if Genesect carries Hidden Power [Ground]), and it would give Gothitelle even more scope against stall teams, being able to get rid of Forretress and Ferrothorn. As you edited, and as the next poster mentioned, Thunderbolt is obviously the much better option in that slot, but I will try out Grass Knot alongside it. Thanks for the comment.

zzazzdsa said:

Grass knot doesn't have full power against Politoed; it actually does less than tbolt.

Well, this is obviously a very solid team here; good job. Gothitelle is absolutely brilliant here, and the rest of your team really supports it. However, it does have its problems. One, I very very rarely had to switch moves on Garchomp; what I usually did was get a kill and GET THE FUCK OUT. Although a yache SDchomp is a solid set to use here, I found that the metagame just hates it, with many things either walling its outrages and crippling it or just outright outspeeding and OHKOing. In addition, things such as Lati@s and Tornadus were absolute pains for this team to handle, forcing me to sac a poke to get sun up and force them out. To fix this, I'm going to have to recommend Scarf Garchomp over your current set. This gives you a much needed revenge killer outside of sun, enabling you to beat the aforementioned threats and revenging runaway dragons if venu dies. You do lose a sweeper, but in all honesty, the only things you want a sweeperchomp for is sweeping lategame, and I find venusaur does a better job at that. You do also flatten skarmbliss when running a sweeper set, but gothitelle can cripple bliss with trick for heatran to destroy.

Second, use Hidden Power [Ice] over Pain split on Forry; I never had a chance to use it and it just seems frivolous. What are you recovering off of, Blissey? Also change to Grass Knot over Hidden Power [Fighting] on Gothitelle; it still cripples the motherfucker known as Tyranitar while you now don't have to worry about Hippowdons and Chopletars as much.

Well, that's my rate. GL with the team!

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Yeah, I had been thinking that ScarfChomp would be a good choice for me. It would definitely patch up the team's weakness to Latios and Latias as well as pretty much everything else that manages to threaten it. I am also going to be trying out Hidden Power [Ice] on Forretress, as mentioned, as well as Grass Knot on Gothitelle. It's making me kinda glad to see so many changes being agreed on by multiple people. Thanks, man.

Thanks for the kind words, everybody. I'm glad you're all liking the team as much as I do.

Intergalactic said:

Yeah, my mistake. Thanks for that, I'll change the EV spread to that.

Forretress does not have Gyro Ball.

.

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didn't see that lol. i think you should still use 2 speed EVs just so you can take hits from slower pokemon and pain split it away. Certain spreads of Conkelderr, Slowbro and other base 30 pokemon don't outspeed if you run 30 IVs in speed. It's also somewhat useful against Curse Ferrothorn. Gyro Ball gets significantly stronger per curse against a 30 Speed Forretress. Ferrothorn obviously isn't a problem to a sun team, but its better to be safe than sorry.

Chimpakt said:

didn't see that lol. i think you should still use 2 speed EVs just so you can take hits from slower pokemon and pain split it away. Certain spreads of Conkelderr, Slowbro and other base 30 pokemon don't outspeed if you run 30 IVs in speed. It's also somewhat useful against Curse Ferrothorn. Gyro Ball gets significantly stronger per curse against a 30 Speed Forretress. Ferrothorn obviously isn't a problem to a sun team, but its better to be safe than sorry.

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I think I did mention it in my analysis anyway. I'm assuming you mean 2 Speed IVs instead of EVs (because I'm completely lost if that's not what you're saying)? I'll definitely make that change, though. Like you said, safe > sorry. Thanks.