Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion

This is the thread to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of characters and compare them. People like to discuss tiers so here it is. Do not merely create a list and go "This is what I think the tier list is". This is just so people can discuss which character they think is better and good/bad matchups for characters. All opinions must be backed up by facts.

Remember that all forum rules are enforced. This includes the coherency rule. Grammar and spelling are your friends.

Current SBR Tier List (June 4th, 2009):
S: Meta Knight, Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy Kong, King Dedede
A: Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Pikachu, Olimar, Ice Climbers, R.O.B., Kirby
B: Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Pit, Donkey Kong
C: Peach, Luigi, Fox, Wolf, Sonic, Sheik
D: Bowser, Zelda, Pokémon Trainer, Ike
E: Lucas, Mario, Ness, Yoshi, Samus
F: Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf

i was gonna make this thread too eventually, but now that the game is out for a while, i see no harm in discussing possible tiers. remember: i take a dim view on condescending assholeism, so watch it some of you

here is my tier list at the moment

top tier

meta knight: very fast attack and movement speed, multiple jumps, mach tornado, yadda yadda... he just rules. no projectiles hurts some but thats about it

toon link: powerful, quick, with great projectiles. no real weaknesses at all

mr game and watch: would probably be the best in the game if he had a better projectile, and was more heavy

ROB: awesome recovery and powerful attacks, with uneven but good projectiles makes him one of the best

high tier:

marth: very good, but i think a bit overrated

falco: also very good, with an excellent and annoying blaster strategy

snake: an awkward character, but undoubtably very good.

ice climbers: if you can chain grab, hooray

king dedede: also a chain grabber, but also a good stand alone character

wolf: annoying to fight, but overrated... his recovery kinda spoils him

pit: good projectile, recovery, strong enough, and angel ring is a good move

olimar: very powerful, but hard to use overall

zelda: much improved... this little hotty rules now. hooray!

middle tier:

wario: wario rules. if he had more range, he would be higher for sure

diddy kong: he's pretty good, but nothing spectacular as far as i can tell. i dont dash a lot during matches, so i dont really slip over banana peels

luigi: a very balanced character. he is probably what mario should have been

donkey kong: nothing to say here. he's still okay.

ike: he would be so good if he didnt swing that sword around as if his arms are broken

fox: he's still pretty good, but he's done his dash. for one thing, he dies too easily. still, his up smash is good

lucas: would be high tier, easily, if the grab animation thing wasnt so deterimental

pikachu: the electric rat has improved a lot, with good smashes and an improved thunder

kirby: also improved, but, like pikachu, not enough to be ranked with the big boys

low tier:

captain falcon: i dont think he's as bad as people say he is, but he certainly doesnt rank up there with the best. for one thing, his recovery sucks, as does his priority

link: i see no reason to play as link at all.

samus: see above. too floaty and projectiles were weakened

lucario: an interesting character, however i simply cant see a lot of potential

jigglypuff: not as bad as some people say... she certainly has her merits, still. but as far as im concerned, wario is now the master of the air (or meta knight in a different way)

ness: ness has improved slightly since melee, but he still has issues...

peach: jesus, her third jump sucks. turnips arent as good as before, down smash was weakened... ugh...

sheik: no killing power just kinda spoils her... might seem a bit better in the future though

yoshi: not as bad as people says he is. the whole shield animation thing is gay

bottom tier:

bowser: yeah.... sorry bowser. you're still the coolest though =)

ganondorf: too slow with too much animation lag

mario: nah

sonic: jesus christ, he fucking sucks... no priority at all, and his attacks come out so fucking slowly. no killing power. he sucks.

unrankable

pokemon trainer: im gonna have to give this a little bit more thought. as it stands, squirtle would be in middle tier, while the rest would be lower...

zero suit samus: requires further investigation

Sonic isn't all that bad. = / His Fsmash is an ok kill move, and he has great recovery. Snake and MK deserve thier own tier. Kirby definitely doesn't deserve to be below Lucas and Ike..

Hey Steelicks,....I think you forgot to mention Jigglypuff. I'd really like to know what tier section people think she should be in. T-T

I use her after all. ^_^

oh cheers man, knew i forgot someone

Woah, Lucario totally came out of nowhere. Were the Summer 2008 stats from only a couple tournaments or is he really winning that often?

He's better than most people think though, I just don't like his playstyle much and he has an annoying learning curve. And bad recovery.

I freakin' love playing as Lucario. His recovery isn't really that bad, especially if you're coming from above/level with the stage. Most people aren't smart enough to edgehog, and even if they do, Lucario can almost always wall cling and go from there. I've found that I actually use Lucario's Extremespeed to get a "quick" edgehog when both my opponent and I are in the air.

And Double Team is so awesome, except for when it misses...

Nooooooooooooo Ganon. Sorry Steelicks, but your description of Ganon is a clear indicator that you have never played as the big man yourself. The only attacks that suffer from high lag are the Fair and the Murder Punch, the former not being incredibly useful when compared to his other attacks, and the latter being used on one day of the year. Ganon's Usmash has IASA frames, so he can do anything out of it, leading to a whole array of whiffing strategies to draw your opponent in. The lagless Dair is taking the Ganon scene by storm (Thunderstorm), and can combo into itself at least once. The Bair is lagless on landing unless you fuck up, same with Uair (though I believe it is autocancelable). The dash gives an unexpected boost, and while it has some lag, so does every other dash. The Murder Choke/Kick are great tech chasing options, and the Murder Choke sets up for any of three different moves on half the cast. As for his tilts, Ftilt is fast and Dtilt has range.

Ganon is nowhere near spectacular, and he's not the fastest around. But calling him bottom tier based on a never-used move and an impractical one is ridiculous. I'd say give him middle-low at least.

Nah, Ganon is definitely one of the worst people to me. I don't really think much of his dash attack because it is so predictable. The boost means nothing when you see it coming from a mile away. Furthermore, Ganon's weight makes him easy to combo. Ganon's recovery isn't very good, either.

Steelicks, at this point putting Snake anywhere but top seems crazy. Just look at Mia's statistics post. I forgot who said it, but it was "If Snake's in the tournament, he'll win. If he's not, Meta Knight will win".

Mia, I'd post that Stage list in the Stage Discussion topic as well.

Cooper, there hasn't been a single Ganon who's placed in the top 8 according to the stats above =(

the Lexx, Summer 08 seems to be based off of 12 tournaments so far. I guess it's to show how the metagame is evolving.

what do you guys think of pokemon trainer? individually all three pokemon are pretty decent, at least mid tier. ivysaur's problem is his recovery, charizard's is his susceptibility to juggling, and squirtle isn't a terrific killer. but they all cover each other's weaknesses fairly well.

i think pokemon trainer will be mid tier when it's all said and done, some day someone will figure out a way to exceptionally main all three.

Pokemon Trainer is hard. I think the problem is that people don't switch Pokemon. There have been times when I'm facing someone like Charizard and I'm comboing the mess out of it. Instead of keeping Charizard in (and eventually losing a stock), I think it would be more effective for my opponent to knock me off the stage, and switch to a Pokemon more suitable for the match up.

I really kinda suck at placing people in tiers, but I just think that with proper Pokemon switching, Pokemon Trainer is one heck of a tough opponent.

Some nitpicking, dun eat me! :o

Toon Link is too high
Snake too low
Wario too low
Capt Falcon waaaay to high
Mario waaaay to low

and there are some minor things like Lucario's and Ness' placement, but it's pretty good.

And

Hasn't Sliq got some tourney results yet? He's beastly.

Mr Escalator, reasoning. I wasn't kidding when I said all opinions have to be backed up in this thread (unless of course they're statistics, in which case they aren't exactly opinions).

Mia said:

lists

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what i dont like about these lists is that their pretty much all based on the player and not the character. i think these tiers are supposed to be based on the characters, and not how many times theyre used, like some tiers are...

Firestorm said:

Cooper, there hasn't been a single Ganon who's placed in the top 8 according to the stats above =(

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There is a specific reason I never payed any attention to the list threads on smashboards, and it is precisely for this reason:

Atlas said:

what i dont like about these lists is that their pretty much all based on the player and not the character. i think these tiers are supposed to be based on the characters, and not how many times theyre used, like some tiers are...

Click to expand...

I mean, basing a tier off of how much a character is used as opposed to how good the character is is somewhat ridiculous. It becomes a popularity contest at that point. If competitive Pokemon tiers were done like that, Blissey, Garchomp, and Gengar would all be Uber hands down.

Snake is a noob magnet, so he will more than likely place very well, just by the sheer number of people using him. Ganon is not only hard to use, but he's got a bad rep, which is somewhat unappealing to a new player who wants to beat his friends. So therefore, he should be low tier.

And that was Gimpyfish that said that about Snake.

Fine.

Toon Link: He doesnt seem to be top tier material at this point in time. I can see him making top, I really can, but right now he's not doing too great; C-ranked in the character ranking lists doesnt reflect too well. Right now he seems to fit high tier, as he has some great "combo"ability, really nice projectiles, and reliable killing moves.

Snake: Really, right now he's certainly in top tier. He has the best point score on the ranking's by a large margin. In the future I see him falling down, maybe not from top, but MK has more potential, I believe. Mortar sliding, a decent (not great) recovery if orchestrated correctly, a good camping game, amazing tilts, etc etc. gives him a cut above the likes of ROB and friends.

Wario: He's really underestimated. As far as tournament results go, he's in 4th place, mostly because of how much the west coast has been using him. Futile is pretty sweet. Anyways, his aerial game is definitely above average coupled with his great air movement, a better-than-most recovery, and a tech chase Dthrow makes me think he should be in bottom of high.

Capt Falcon: The worst character, I believe. He gets shat upon by anyone with a spammable projectile, has an obvious lack of killing moves and priority, and is outranged and outclassed by many bad matchups. Ganon is superior because of the sheer power he has going for him, a good tech chase/possible combo, a ganoncide, a RELIABLE spike which translates into tunderstorming, and he never lacks ways to kill. Maybe sonic is worse, but if so, not by much.

Mario: I have a great respect for the plumber. He's got a lot of hate since brawl came out because of the lost of his old down B in exchange of F.L.U.D.D. and he's pretty much drifted into obscurity. He's got one of the very best edgeguarding games with the cape, his spike, and F.L.U.D.D.. He also has a good juggling game with Nairs, Uairs, and Bairs, while shorthopped Dairs are also good damage dealers. Fsmash and Usmash are pretty good for killing moves, but he may not have much in this part; his ability to gimp helps make up for this. He also has an above average approach game because of SH'd fireballs. I dont see him in bottom; I actually see him in Mid.

do you also want me to elaborate on Ness and Lucario?
The original nitpicking was because I didnt want to force my opinion too heavily on another's tier list.
Maybe I'll do my own some other time.

Cooper said:

Snake is a noob magnet, so he will more than likely place very well, just by the sheer number of people using him. Ganon is not only hard to use, but he's got a bad rep, which is somewhat unappealing to a new player who wants to beat his friends. So therefore, he should be low tier.

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I agree with this. Ganondorf has been repeatedly shot down since his intro into Melee (I can't opine on him in that game, I've never played it at length), but if used correctly he's nigh unstoppable. Yes, he's slow, but he makes up for it with sheer brute force: my roommate is awesome with MK and Sonic, and while he'll dance circles around me with those guys, when I finally get a hit in, it fucking COUNTS. When we have 4-way free for alls with 7 falls, I never get below 10 kills. I won't say I win all the time, because Ganondorf becomes easy to knock off because he's slow and therefore can't elude many attacks and builds up damage quickly, but I think he needs to be moved up to at least mid-tier.

On that note, Sonic needs to be moved up. He might not be too strong, but his speed is ridiculous, he can dance circles around most of the other characters and hit them from behind before they realize he moved. His neutral B-air attack is incredibly hard to defend against, as is his rolling ground charge. Don't even get me fucking started on his Final Smash...

Atlas said:

what i dont like about these lists is that their pretty much all based on the player and not the character. i think these tiers are supposed to be based on the characters, and not how many times theyre used, like some tiers are...

Click to expand...

How are they based off of the player though. Those aren't from one area, those stats are from all over the USA, Canada, and maybe even Europe. The Japanese one admittedly is just based off one tournament I believe.

Cooper said:

There is a specific reason I never payed any attention to the list threads on smashboards, and it is precisely for this reason:

I mean, basing a tier off of how much a character is used as opposed to how good the character is is somewhat ridiculous. It becomes a popularity contest at that point. If competitive Pokemon tiers were done like that, Blissey, Garchomp, and Gengar would all be Uber hands down.

Snake is a noob magnet, so he will more than likely place very well, just by the sheer number of people using him. Ganon is not only hard to use, but he's got a bad rep, which is somewhat unappealing to a new player who wants to beat his friends. So therefore, he should be low tier.

And that was Gimpyfish that said that about Snake.

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How is it ridiculous? And why would you use Pokemon as an example? Pokemon uses usage to define tiers as well. You might even notice that 3/5 of the tiers use the word "used" in them. Blissey, Garchomp, and Gengar all fall in the "Overused" tier. Uber and Borderline are just the Pokemon who are banned from play in Overused and Underused respectively. Borderline is also a tier based on usage though. They're not used enough to be Overused, but they're considerablybetter than Underused.

How is Snake a noob magnet though? He's pretty hard to use 1v1. I'm also not sure how it's a popularity contest. These stats are based off of competitive play. People use who they have to use to win. Why do you think there's such an overwhelming amount of Snake and Meta Knight top finishes compared to the rest? Hell, I can assure you that half the people who are winning with Snake haven't even played a Metal Gear game.

Gimpyfish was kidding in that case btw. It doesn't sound very serious at all.

How are they based off of the player though. Those aren't from one area, those stats are from all over the USA, Canada, and maybe even Europe. The Japanese one admittedly is just based off one tournament I believe.

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Well, popularity affects this a lot, and I do sort of agree that where they are in the list doesnt accurately translate into a tier. For example, Wario is quite popular in the west coast, or so I hear. Futile is getting Wario some great results, and this affects the chart a lot. On the east coast we have a good deal of Snakes. Wario isn't the best, but the efforts of a select few individuals are giving him a good placing in Ankoku's character ranking list. G&W is looking to be third after Snake and MK, but his tourney results dont match up as well.

Speaking of which, G&W has the best matchups as far as Im concerned xP

Firestorm said:

How are they based off of the player though. Those aren't from one area, those stats are from all over the USA, Canada, and maybe even Europe. The Japanese one admittedly is just based off one tournament I believe.

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these stats make no indication of the character skill, just the players. player x uses snake all the time. he also wins a lot. is player x a good player or is snake the best character?

if player x decides to play as yoshi for a change. he, also, wins a lot. is he a good player or is yoshi the best character?

if you want to compare lists you also need to use the character lists for the tournaments. if in a 64 man tournament, if 32 has snake, 16 have metaknight, 8 have pit, etc., odds are a snake player will win. does this mean snake is the best character? what if all those players were using yoshi, chances are a yoshi player will win the tournament. does this mean yoshi that best character?

Snake is a noob magnet because people project him to be good. Imagine you're a new player with dreams of being the best (think Ash). You've never played Smash, yet you're versatile with every character. So you look on a board to find out which characters are the best. Will you be drawn to Snake, the top character in any tier list, or, say, Capt. Falcon, who everyone says is the worst character to ever grace the game?

So it's a popularity contest.

Which is why people like Yoshi and Mario are usually lumped in bottom. They're generally underplayed and not a lot of people like playing them as characters. Its been like that since 64. Well, Mario has Boss to represent him :P

If ROB wasnt so good at camping and abusing the speed of his Dsmash, he would be projected as much lower. Not many like him purely as a character, and you can see this anytime you check his section on Smashboards. For such a high tiered character, it gets little traffic.

I've been brawling a lot with ZSS lately, and I think she is deserving of low tier. ZSS isn't exactly gamebreaking, but with high speed and a decent aerial game, she is of some use (at least more than Bowser and Sonic).

First of all, her tilts are pretty mediocre, so don't use them. Mashing A is more effective (it's not bad, but really she has some better options. Her F special move (not the paralyzing gunshot) is great, as it is one of few that hits more than one opponent at a time. It sends them into the air and KO's them at around 140% iirc.

The better reason to use ZSS would be for the aerials. Fair is decent, but Uair is one of the most powerful kicking moves. Dair, while it doesn't spike too well, is effective in getting back to the ground.

While her recovery may be limited to tether, the tether does have great vertical range. While this may make ZSS more vulnerable to edge-guarding, when combined with her very high jumps, there hasn't been many instances where her recovery was inadequate.

ZSS has two major downfalls- easy launchability and no projectiles. Down-B could have at least been a grenade, not a comparatively useless dodge. The automatic-spawned items that come at the beginning of the match are helpful, yes, but don't really remedy the situation.

The paralyzing gun move, combined with side-B and decent aerial attacks, can lead to some interesting combinations. She just doesn't make the opponents pay for mistakes like Snake or Falco would, as her smashes are pretty lackluster.

But then again, no one is going to question your sexuality with such a female pick. Come on, ZSS is hot.

Here's one I made a couple days ago for smashboards. Kirby and Wario are probably too high but here it is:

Top Tier:
~ Snake - Has won the most tournaments. Intense mind games, easily the best atm.
~ Meta Knight - Racks up damage quick and can kill easily too.
~ Game & Watch - Good at just about everything, bucket is great. Buffed the most from melee.

High Tier:
~ Olimar - Only thing lacking his is recovery. Also check this out.
~ King DeDeDe - Side B is great, can chaingrab, great recovery, and isn't all slow.
~ Marth - Great spacing game with good range and a very powerful tip. Broken Fair.
~ Wolf - Forward smash is one of the best, spammable laser and a reflector.
~ Falco - Very spammable SHDL, amazing air game and not a bad ground game.
~ Toon Link - Very similar to Falco, his Bair is great.
~ ROB - Combos and projectiles.
~ Pit - Gay arrows and side B.
~ Diddy Kong - Great air game, and bananas.
~ Kirby - The first big suprise on my tier list, Kirby honestly could be even higher. Amazing aerials, can gimp very easily, combos out of grabs, very good at racking up damage and KO'ing and intense recovery. Only downside I can think of is light weight.

Middle Tier:
~ Pokemon Trainer - The other big suprise on my tier list, usually at the top of low, but should be way higher. Has almost no bad matchups, is heavy, light and middle, plus all three of the pokemon could be effective on their own.
~ Pikachu - A good Pikachu is one of the most annoying things out there. QAC is great.
~ Zelda - Din's fire plus amazing tilts and smashes, can get juggled easily though.
~ Wario - Amazing air game, good ground game, great recovery and fart.
~ Ice Climbers - Can pretty much not be grabbed, and can do amazing things with the grab, plus attacks that deal huge damage. coughdsmashcough
~ Luigi - Great air game. Good recovery. Good character. Could rise.
~ Ness - OMG higher than Lucas what a noob. Seriously though, tell me one thing that Lucas has over Ness.
~ Charizard - Best of the PT pokemon IMO because it is a tank. Rock Smash is beastly, so is flamethrower and has huge killing potential.
~ ZSS - Good but hard to get that kill.
~ Donkey Kong - Amazing Bair, his big frame can be abused though.
~ Lucas - Worse ness
~ Fox - Nerfed a ton
~ Ivysaur - Bullet seed is arguable the best move in the game, a great projectile and very easy to kill with. Probably should be higher, but the recovery is arguable the worst.
~ Shiek - My main in melee, but is nerfed now.
~ Ike - Can be a beast if used correctly, but is so punishable.
~ Squirtle - Great air game but dies a lot and is fairly hard to kill with.

Low Tier:
~ Peach - This was a bit of a guess actually.
~ Sonic - Can not sweetspot the edge, aerials lack priority but is fairly fast.
~ Mario - In a game where average isnt good enough.
~ Bowser - Buffed a fair bit, actually usable.
~ Ganondorf - Can tech chase but is very slow.

Bottom Tier:
~ Link - Toon Link overshadows it and uhh i dunno.
~ Yoshi - Not very good.
~ Captain Falcon - Bleh

I main DeDeDe and Game & Watch by the way.