Why Dugtrio really needs to get a Life

[Jumpman16**]

Ok, you just lost a pokemon to my Heracross's Choice Banded Megahorn. But you don't care, you have your own CBer waiting in the wings: Dugtrio! You don't feel dirty using Duggy for a skill-less revenge-kill — after all, Heracross would be near-broken if it weren't for Dugtrio, right?

So you kill it with Aerial Ace, happy to be done with it Hera for the rest of the battle. Annoyed, I send in Tyranitar to deal a heavy Choice Banded Blow to one of your pokemon.

Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Aerial Ace on a 342HP/256Def (4EVs/min) Tyranitar: 9-11%
Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Aerial Ace on a 342HP/256Def (4EVs/min) Tyranitar: 10-12%

My mistake, you're not staying in, you're switching out after your awesome, zero-prediction kill. What was I thinking?

Adamant 403 Attack Tyranitar's Choice Banded Pursuit on a switching, 211HP/136Def (min/min) Dugtrio: 182-214%

Yeah, that's what. Different battle, my CB Tyra's Stone Edge takes out your Suicune on the switch. No worries, Duggy's CBed Earthquake to the rescue, right? Out goes my fainted Tyranitar. In comes my CB Heracross. You're switching, right?

Adamant, 383 Attack Heracross's Choice Banded Pursuit on a switching, 211HP/136Def (min/min) Dugtrio: 115-135%

This is your only option:

Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 302HP/186Def (4EVs/min) Heracross: 37-43%
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 302HP/186Def Heracross (4EVs/min): 40-47%


Hmmm. Kind of cheap and annoying, huh? But if Dugtrio doesn't want a taste of its own medicine from Heracross and Tyranitar, and in DP, it is going to "need" Life Orb, or this can and will happen every time it kills something with "the wrong move". Now, I just happen to have both Tyranitar and Heracross on the team I posted here a few weeks ago. But they, of course, aren't the only pokemon in DP on which Pursuit will be a popular option, Choice Banded or not.

Say you kill Heracross with AA again, or maybe Blade Test a Celebi, smugly satisfied that maybe you're not missing your physical HP Bug after all. In comes Metagross. Or Weavile.

Adamant, 405 Attack Metagross's Choice Banded Pursuit on a switching, 211HP/136Def (min/min) Dugtrio: 122-143%
Jolly, 339 Attack Weavile's Choice Banded Pursuit on a switching, 211HP/136Def (min/min) Dugtrio: 153-180%

Weavile is particularly interesting because it is faster than Dugtrio (125 base speed vs 120), and will do 77-90% to Dugtrio even if it doesn't switch. Incidentally, Life Orb Dugtrio would kill it with Stone Edge (Jolly 254Atk LO Duggy's EQ does a coincidental 77-90% on a 281HP/166Def [min/min] Weavile), but they will know you're equipped with Life Orb because of your first kill, and know things like their Blissey is now not 2HKOed by its EQ, etc, etc.

I think Pursuit Heracross, Tyranitar and Metagross are reason enough to consider the consequences of Choice Band on Dugtrio, a much-whored and -maligned pokemon in competitive battle in Advance. And, therefore, to consider the pros and cons of the 1.3× boost granted to pokemon via Life Orb, at the expense — in comparison to Choice Band — of considerable power and 10% of your HP with every blow you deal but with the allotment of the freedom of, well, choice. But I'm only one person, so, I ask you Smogoners: is it worth it to use Life Orb on Dugtrio?

[Deck Knight]

Life Orb should be used on Duggy only until Pursuit loses popularity. Then CB Duggy should return until Pursuit comes back. Cycle infinetely throughout time.

[Pyr0]

EEK! I knew Pursuit T-tar would be some kind of devilish fiend sent from hell to exterminate any kind of CB'er, I just knew it!

Also, dont use so much spaces, it makes reading somewhat hard.

This might sound like a super Joke [there was one actualy, in some1's sig] but... 2 Duggies in one team might be used...

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Pyr0

EEK! I knew Pursuit T-tar would be some kind of devilish fiend sent from hell to exterminate any kind of CB'er, I just knew it!

Also, dont use so much spaces, it makes reading somewhat hard.

This might sound like a super Joke [there was one actualy, in some1's sig] but... 2 Duggies in one team might be used...

Another LOL would be having a Trick Room team with both Dugtrio and Trapinch, just to be super-annoying.

[Jumpman16**]

As far as competitive battle goes, Species Clause is strictly enforced.

Spaces are to set calculations apart from the text but you do have a point

[SpaceFlare]

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Life Orb should be used on Duggy only until Pursuit loses popularity. Then CB Duggy should return until Pursuit comes back. Cycle infinetely throughout time.

For now, I think this is what is going to happen in D/P.

Of course it's all a matter of high risk, high reward. CB Dugtrio puts you under the risk of being given a taste of your own medicine, while Life Orb Dugtrio eliminates the chance of that happening. Life Orb Duggy will have less attack power as a cost. It will depend on the player's style I think.

[Phuquoph]

I'd say Life Orb over Choice Band depends to a large extent on the rest of your team.

If you've got one of those "let's kill Blissey as soon as possible" special sweeper teams, then you'll need the extra power of CB to finish her.

Whereas if you have problems with the Pursuit users you mentioned, you'd want Life Orb so they don't get a free hit or revenge kill.

Also, the shortness of the original post is disappointing. 50 - 60 more damage calculations and an essay on Salamence and/or Tyranitar would solve this.

[freaktron]

Two questions-

1. How much does Life Orb increase Attack damage by?

2. Since Beautiful Skin hasn't been mentioned, does Arena Trap still prevent BS' holder from switching out?

[Pneuma]

1) 1.3x damage
2) Beautiful Skin allows escape from ALL trap abilities (Shadow Tag, Magnet Pull).

[DoubleX]

Originally Posted by Fat freaktron

Two questions-

1. How much does Life Orb increase Attack damage by? 1.3x

2. Since Beautiful Skin hasn't been mentioned, does Arena Trap still prevent BS' holder from switching out? Since the Beautiful Skin works on Magnet Pull for Steel types, then theoretically it should work for Arena Trap (and Shadow Tag, but that's not the topic at hand)

I agree with Phuquoph. If Dugtrio is a Blissey killer, and that's all it does, then CB. If it's there as a revenge killer in general, Life Orb.

[Hipmonlee*]

Pursuit has other uses apart from killing dugtrio of course..

Also often Dugtrio doesnt really need to kill two pokemon to be a huge boost to your team, and often sacrificing it is better than taking the free hit on one of your other pokes.. But I guess in that regard lifeorb is safer again, as leaving Dugtio in AAing against Tyranitar is a good way to get swept..

However the drop in damage is gonna hurt a lot.. Good luck killing Celebi, Blissey or finishing off a rester..

I think if I run Dugtrio I might actually try life orb, you have convinced me.. But I am currently intending to use pursuit Weavile as a replacement.

Have a nice day.

[ToP]

The use of Pursuit won't lead to more Life Orb Dugtrios. It will lead to less Dugtrio usage overall. Being 2 for 1'd time and time again will make people realize that the occasional revenge kill isn't really worth it.

[Pyr0]

Well If you want Revenge Killers, I invite you guys to see my "Rush Sweeping Thread" and see my Donkarasu Revenge Killah! [Godfather style =P]

[chewy]

I could see beautiful skin used on a mixtar, though life orb is very attractive if duggie isn't too much of a presence. Possibly Infernape too since it already has multiple STAB 120 BP moves and SD/scheme to kick ass. Heracross needs better items though, either it doesn't have enough speed or enough power.

[Misty**]

Figured this out a long time ago. I always put Life Orb on Dugtrio.

[latinoheat]

how much does a life orb dugtrio actually do to tyranitar(401hp) with quake

[Misty**]

Adamant: 284 attack vs 256 defense, 100 power(* 3.9): 314 - 370
Jolly: 259 attack vs 256 defense, 100 power(* 3.9): 285 - 335

[KiMeS]

as there are several new sets and new threats for blissey. Is there a blissey, life orb duggy is able to 2HKO?

[Little Green Yoda]

Originally Posted by Fat KiMeS

as there are several new sets and new threats for blissey. Is there a blissey, life orb duggy is able to 2HKO?

Adamant, max Attack Duggy with Life Orb will do 34-40% to min HP, max Def Blissey with a neutral nature. And Blissey will probably still be Bold with some HP EVs.

[skarm]

Oh Tekky =(

[Mekkah**]

This didn't really convince me to use Life Orb on Dugtrio. It just convinced me to put Pursuit on both Heracross and Tyranitar. I still think Choice Band isn't a bad thing at all, it still kills Blissey and Tyranitar and Metagross more efficiently. I may just not use Dugtrio at all aside from taking out Blissey (also because it's gay).

[Deck Knight]

Life Orb Dugtrio set:

Dugtrio @ Life Orb
Jolly (+Speed, -SA)
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Speed/4HP
~ Earthquake
~ Aerial Ace
~ Blade Test/Stone Edge
~ Protect

What you do is make the kill, then use Protect to see if they are going to Pursuit or not. If its a CB version and they use Pursuit, you know you are owned and can act accordingly. If they use another attack, you can use the opening to escape unharmed. This sort of falls apart with Non-CB versions that have Pursuit, but it allows Duggy to glimpse into the foe's movepool and see what their plan is. Removing Dugtrio is usually a big priority for many teams.

[tenchi17]

Still wouldn't put Life Orb on Dugtrio, I just wouldn't use Dugtrio. I don't think it's worth it to go down to 1.3x damage *and* lose HP just to try and hit everything that tries to counter you.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat tenchi17

Still wouldn't put Life Orb on Dugtrio, I just wouldn't use Dugtrio. I don't think it's worth it to go down to 1.3x damage *and* lose HP just to try and hit everything that tries to counter you.

Duggy dies if it takes a hit anyway, I'd rather get 10 attacks out of it and kill 2 pokemon than use CB, kill one, and get revenge pwned.

[Jumpman16**]

Originally Posted by Fat Misty

Figured this out a long time ago. I always put Life Orb on Dugtrio.

Yeah, I remember the "am i cool?" team rate that you posted had LO Duggy on it but there has been little explanation behind why it's a viable option from Duggy's offensive perspective and, of course, no explanation from this defensive one =D

Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah

This didn't really convince me to use Life Orb on Dugtrio. It just convinced me to put Pursuit on both Heracross and Tyranitar. I still think Choice Band isn't a bad thing at all, it still kills Blissey and Tyranitar and Metagross more efficiently. I may just not use Dugtrio at all aside from taking out Blissey (also because it's gay).

And you know I agree 100% since you know I hate Duggy about as much as you and wouldn't use it in the first place lol. I didn't even have Pursuit on my CB Tar until I thought of this, even though I figured EQ/FP wouldn't be used anywhere near as much as Crunch/SE (FP is more expendable imo as it pretty much only hits faster normal types harder since you're staying in on Blissey and Lax to Crunch/SE again)

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Life Orb Dugtrio set:

Dugtrio @ Life Orb
Jolly (+Speed, -SA)
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Speed/4HP
~ Earthquake
~ Aerial Ace
~ Blade Test/Stone Edge
~ Protect

What you do is make the kill, then use Protect to see if they are going to Pursuit or not. If its a CB version and they use Pursuit, you know you are owned and can act accordingly. If they use another attack, you can use the opening to escape unharmed. This sort of falls apart with Non-CB versions that have Pursuit, but it allows Duggy to glimpse into the foe's movepool and see what their plan is. Removing Dugtrio is usually a big priority for many teams.

I'm glad you've given this some thought and contributed, but you're forgetting one key thing: when you make a kill with Life Orb, you take 10% HP damage that your opponent can see, in many ways tipping your hand more than Choice Band would since its power grants you a OHKO on Hera regardless and CB Tyranitar if it's under 74% HP (assuming a 254Atk Duggy). I would think that if your opponent is smart enough to use Pursuit in this manner, he is observant enough to notice the recoil damage you took and be a little more cautious in general. Protect isn't too bad an idea in general on Duggy to scout what your opponent is going to use, but it probably won't work in the manner you're suggesting.