Gyarados/Garchomp Team

I held off posting this team hoping the amount of RMT threads would die down. Apparently it isn't going to, so I'll just add to the problem with this. How very twatty of me.

This will hopefully be my first WiFi team as it won't depend on getting hold of Jirachi or Manaphy, so it should be easier to construct.

There's nothing really surprising or new, so I'm looking for help with any glaring weaknesses I've missed or possible moveset changes or tweaking my EV spreads. Essentially, I need to make the team flow well.

Team Strategy

The team is centered around Gyarados and Garchomp. Each of them throw out attacks to weaken their counters, while the rest of the team attempts to take them out. Eventually, this should open up an opportunity for Gyarados or Garchomp to sweep. I've also tried to keep the majority of sweepers at bay by maintaining a decent amount of offense from the entire team.

Swampert @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 240 HP / 56 Atk / 212 Def
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Snow Slide
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Starting to get in an early Stealth Rock.

Snow Slide over Ice Beam allows me to boost his defense up some more to take Tyranitar hits, CB/DD Crunch does 44 - 52%. The rest of the team has problems with HP Ice Electrics and Electivire, Swampert walls them very effectively. This is vital with Starmie, Togekiss and Gyarados on the team.

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 196 HP / 104 Atk / 68 Def / 100 Spd / 40 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Fang
- Earthquake
- Waterfall

I'm liking bulky Gyarados more and more. Could be my late game sweeper or just come in and take hits and dish them out. EVs guarantee he'll survive a Meteoric Swarm from Salamence and OHKO back with Ice Fang. He'll be practically dead if that happens, but I do have Wish support on the team. Speed is to beat Garchomp after a Dragon Dance.

Garchomp @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Veil
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Blast

I'd been trying to leave this off most of my teams because everyone is going insane trying to counter it. Then I realized he works incredibly well with Gyarados as he resists both of his the big aquatic snake's weaknesses. Plus, Gyarados does a good job of taking down the Water types like Suicune that Garchomp may have trouble with. These two form the basis of the teams physical offense.

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SAtk / 240 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Luster Cannon
- Dragon Pulse
- Explosion

Absorbs burns for my two physical sweepers. Gyarados shrugs off all of Heatran's weakness and with two Flyers and a defensive Swampert I don't fear incoming Earthquakes too much. Choice Scarf also gives him enough speed to outpace Dugtrio and OHKO with Flamethrower. Luster Cannon is also a possible OHKO on Dugtrio.

Luster Cannon is prefered to Land Power to hit Tyranitar harder (doesn't OHKO though) as Heatran is my only Dark resist, plus my team has Infernape and Electrics well covered. Dragon Pulse also has a shot at 2HKOing the monkey if it switches in.

Explosion takes out any threats to my sweepers that his other moves won't cover.

Starmie @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 76 HP / 216 Spd / 216 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Surf
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Thunderbolt

Removes Stealth Rock for Gyarados and Togekiss. No Ice Beam as enemy Gyarados are a far bigger problem for this team than Dragons. Takes status in general and finishes off Infernape. Would a more defensive spread work here or do I need all that speed?

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 228 HP/ 82 SAtk / 200 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Air Slash
- wish
- Grass Rope
- Thunder Wave

Can survive a Modest Zapdos Thunderbolt. Not that I'd leave it in or switch it in, it's just to show well he takes special hits.

Survives any Schemed hit from Azelf that isn't Thunderbolt and paralyzes it or finishes it off with Air Slash. 270 speed to outpace Adamant Heracross. Wish and paraylsis support for the team and for some flinching fun with Air Slash. Grass Rope to beat down Waters and Grounds, plus it 2HKOs Tyranitar and seems generally more useful than Pulse Bomb on this team.

Starmie's Timid Thunderbolt/Ice Beam does a mere 42 - 50%, while it does 63 - 74% with Choice Glasses.

Togekiss' Grass Rope does 64 - 75% to a Starmie with 262 HP and 52 - 62% against one with 320 HP.

Good choice for a Wish passer on this team as he can switch to Garchomp or Swampert on Electric or Rock attacks and Starmie, Heatran and Gyarados on Ice attacks.

Threat Analysis

Here's a quick rundown on how my team might fare against some of the main sweeping threats.

Infernape: Gyarados beats mixed sets, Garchomp does a decent job if it's not carrying HP Ice, Togekiss also beats mixed sets. Swampert beats physical sets. Starmie stops it sweeping. No safe switch-in on any of my team.

Gyarados: Starmie stops it sweeping. Can switch in on my own Gyarados, Swampert, Garchomp and Heatran. Swampert's Stealth Rock can help to wear it down.

Raikou: Depending on it's Hidden Power either Swampert or Garchomp can beat it. Starmie and Togekiss are it's only safe switch-ins.

Garchomp: Gyarados stops it. Starmie still beats if it comes in on a Surf. Can only safely come in on Togekiss.

Tyranitar: Can't safely switch in on any team member. Resistances to all it's CB moves. Swampert can Roar out the Dragon Dancer. Three team members are immune to SandStorm and I have Wish support on Togekiss and Recover on Starmie.

Heracross: Gyarados takes everything it has barring Stone Edge. Togekiss outspeeds CB Adamant versions and OHKOs easily but can only really get in on a Megahorn. Heatran can come in on anything but In Fight and OHKO. Can come in on Swampert and Starmie, although Surf is a possible 2HKO if they skimped on the HP EVs.

Azelf: Heatran outspeeds it and resists the majority of it's moves. As already mentioned, Togekiss handles any Schemed hit that isn't Thunderbolt and can paralyze it. Only real safe switch-in is Swampert.

Salamence: Swampert beats physical versions and Stealth Rock wears it down, Gyarados has a good shot at it too. Heatran resists everything on it's special set barring Hydro Pump. Starmie is it's only safe switch-in.

Electivire: Without HP Grass Swampert will beat it. If it does have HP Grass, well I can't think of anything that counters it. Togekiss is it's only real safe switch-in as Starmie's Surf can 2HKO.

I didn't list everything, just some of the bigger threats. Did I miss anything that walks all over this team? Are there any walls/tanks I'll have problems breaking down? You didn't really read all of this did you?

Phuquoph said:

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SAtk / 240 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Luster Cannon
- Dragon Pulse
- Explosion

Absorbs burns for my two physical sweepers. Gyarados shrugs off all of Heatran's weakness and with two Flyers and a defensive Swampert I don't fear incoming Earthquakes too much. Choice Scarf also gives him enough speed to outpace Dugtrio and OHKO with Flamethrower. Luster Cannon is also a possible OHKO on Dugtrio.

Luster Cannon is prefered to Land Power to hit Tyranitar harder (doesn't OHKO though) as Heatran is my only Dark resist, plus my team has Infernape and Electrics well covered. Dragon Pulse also has a shot at 2HKOing the monkey if it switches in.

Explosion takes out any threats to my sweepers that his other moves won't cover.

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Choice scarf boosts SAtk, not speed, you talking about Adherence Scarf to beat Duggie. Heatran's moveset leaves a lot to be desired, but consider HP Grass/Electric for the inevitable H2O switch.

The scarf does raise Speed.

The glasses raise S.Atk.

Read every word, then I typed up a bunch of calculations on Weavile and Medicham but deleted them when I realized you didn't even mention them, sorry.

Not that you don't already know this, but your approach to pokemon is very similar to mine, meaning we actually take the time to think of the real threats and reason out why we're using what, both from a quantitative (numberssssss) perspective and qualitative one. I feel like requiring everyone who posts an RMT to run through a checklist like you did after your actual team to see whether or not their "team" is 6-0ed by not only the (by now, I hope) obvious threats like Gyarados or Azelf, but the no so obvious ones that seem to only come out after careful thought.

For the most part, you're going to want to watch out for you activating Electivire's Electric Engine. People seem to be liking the Gyarados -> Electivire combination, so you're probably going to have to hope your Swampert switches in on a Thunderbolt and not some crazy prediction HP Grass or Ice Punch that will get it into HP Grass KO Range, but like you said, nothing can really beat that. You just need to be extra careful with your Togekiss and Starmie.

I would almost suggest Blissey over Togekiss for that reason, actually. The reason people are seeming to go IB over TW is because of Garchomp, but as far as your team is concerned, it's all the more devastating to throw a TW from your own special wall at Electivire than a Garchomp your Gyarados and Swampert have pretty covered. A further reason is because IB/Toss/Wish/Protect lets you scout CBers, which will let you effectively handle the Tyranitar Togekiss's Grass Rope would 2HKO in theory. Then again, Blissey is "boring" or whatever and Togekiss does seem to work just fine for this team.

When I get around to using Rapid Spin Starmie I may sigh and realize that I can't have all that SpA if I really really want it to be an effective spinner. You may feel compelled to drop down to ~266SpA in favor of more HP, but:

Timid, 266 Special Attack Starmie's Thunderbolt on a 384HP/236SpD (mear-max/min) Gyarados: 81-96%

so that's up to you. You need 278 to always do at least 75% (Stealth Rock) to the above Gyarados ("mine"), but you will outspeed most even after a DD with your 352 Speed Starmie so yeah

Like with any team centered around Gyarados and Garchomp, it has a serious problem against fast boltbeamers like Gengar and Starmie. Something like Blissey would be nice to wall them.

Taunt-less Gyarados still has trouble against Suicune. Waterfall isn't really needed reading your threat analysis, except maybe Heracross.

Swampert is pretty much essential to prevent your team from being sweeped, so I'm not sure you want to keep it in against CBTar.

I read every word.

Read the first post in this thread, people. This is the kind of RMT thread we like to see. Clear explanations with each team member, a rundown of the strategy, how the team can handle threats...everyone should make their RMTs look like this.


I'm having a very hard time thinking of things to beat this. HP Grass Electivire was already mentioned. I'd also like to give a special mention to Stone Edge Gyarados, who is capable of doing a real number to you if they manage to CH Starmie with it on the switch-in. A 310 attack Gyarados (your EVs), who criticals with Stone Edge, will deal an absolute maximum of 258 damage* to your Starmie, which is coincidentally your Starmie's HP with stealth rock damage. This seems coincidental but Starmie will often be carrying residual damage from earlier, so do be aware that a Stone Edge crit killng Starmie can and eventually will happen.

* Could be off by a few points as we don't know the exact damage formula or how criticals work.

An absolutely fabulous team, to be sure. You did a real bang-up job on the write up, too. Facinating. I think you did such a great job, in fact, that I'm bookmarking this thread.

All morning I've been sick in bed, and so I've been taking the time to hammer out a team, myself. I took a much more defensive approach than you in that I have only one dedicated sweeper to your two, but past our Pokemon selection it's comforting to see a competant team builder taking a similar route.

I only hope that I will be able to square off against you in the coming months. I look forward to it, in fact.

Five star thread, imo.

chewy said:

Choice scarf boosts SAtk, not speed, you talking about Adherence Scarf to beat Duggie. Heatran's moveset leaves a lot to be desired, but consider HP Grass/Electric for the inevitable H2O switch.

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Scarf boosts speed, as has been already mentioned.

Would you care to elaborate on the problems with Heatran's moveset?

HP Grass/Electric aren't really options as this will be a WiFi team (which I mentioned at the start of the original post).

Finally, a real RMT amidst a sea of crap. Also, excellent use of the word twatty.

I'd feel so vulnerable with tauntless Gyarados :{

The merits of Waterfall on Gyarados certainly are debatable. On one hand, Taunt keeps you safe (most of the time) from Thunder Wave and Will-o-Wisp. On the other hand, Waterfall keeps you from having to run from Skarmory.

I think with Natural Cure Starmie & Heatran trying to back up Gyarados' status weakness, he can chance to run Waterfall. Besides, most people expect Gyarados to run only two attacks, I'd wager, so there's the surprise factor to consider.

I'm still a bit torn on Taunt. While it would be a big help I feel I may need his STAB as he's one of my main sweepers. It's probably something I won't decide on until I've tested the team out.

Main reason for Waterfall on Gyarados: Heracross. Ice Fang does much less to Heracross. I don't feel safe using Ice Fang/EQ Gyarados as my Heracross counter, who is a much bigger threat to any team than status.

I get your reasoning for running Luster Cannon on Heatran. I would still say that Land Power is the better move. First, it hits enemy Heatran super effective. This is important because it is your best counter to AScarf Heatran. Secondly, it covers more than Luster Cannon. It hits Electrics like Electivire super-effective. HP Grass version of Electivire would be less likely to run Cross Chop and/or Earthquake.

Of course, if you ever plan to use this team on competitior, HP Electric would be worth a look. Killing Gyarados that easily is incredibly good.

You know, the thing that bugs me most about flinging "Gyarados weak" is that Gyarados is actually WEAKER now than in Advance, and the reasoning for its terror inspiration is driven, like Infernape, on the basis that every Gyarados has the right moves to counter someone's team. Some dislike Tauntridos, others are weak to Stone Edge Gyara, and the likelyhood of having both Taunt and SE on the same Gyara is pretty slim. In fact, many of the teams I've seen don't have Taunt OR Stone Edge on Gyarados, such as this one.

FIRST: "Bulky" Gyarados no longer has been given its 265 speed, meaning +Speed Gengar, Jolteon, Starmie, Azelf, and Raikou come in and tear its head off with Tbolt Since it only hits 334 after a DD.

SECOND: Ice Fang/EQ variants are weaker than Advance's EQ/HP Fly. Unless Gyarados is facing Mence/Chomp, Ice Fang is effectively useless as an attack. Using Waterfall/EQ gets you walled by Mence and Grassers. Using IF/EQ/WF as in this set keeps your coverage at a maximum, but is still lacking if you want to take out something like Suicune. Suicune actually does a pretty bang-up job of walling Gyarados UNLESS it has Taunt.

IN CONCLUSION: Gyarados is getting about as much hype now as Garchomp did a few weeks back. Unlike Heracross, where you can pretty much guarentee its moveset can rape you if the Cross user has prediction skills, Gyarados' 6-0ing ability is shaky at best, since most of the sets are relying on UNSTABbed attacks to take out foes. Anything that resists Ground attacks is going to be giving Gyarados a hard time.

I'm also wary of the "safe switch-in" logic, since prediction is key, and I don;t know what number's you're using for defenses, but its a pretty same bet not everything is going to use 0 HP/Def, the only reason to assume such a thing is if you follow the "offense offense offense" metagame idea... and yet here we are loading Gyara up with defensive EVs, which would seem to contradict that notion.

Perhaps all I'm really saying is that we should wait and see what Competitor brings before we start talking about 6-0 sweeps from the likes of Gyarados or Garchomp.

I don't believe I said either Garchomp or Gyarados would 6-0 a team, frankly I doubt either will. If either of them do then I must be facing a woefully inadequate team. Their roles are to finish off teams when they've been weakened sufficiently, I stated as much at the start of my original post.

All of the sweepers I mentioned either can or can't switch in regardless of their EVs unless I stated otherwise, such as the cases of Starmie vs. Heracross and Electivire.

Great team, I've got to say. Keep in mind, however, that you may have to watch out for Bronzor. I know Heatran can take it, but neither of your sweepers can say the same. I know it isn't common yet, but I can forsee it gaining popularity in the future.

Bronzong can't really hurt my team though. I might consider Fire Fang on Garchomp to take care it a little better than Fire Blast though.

Deck Knight said:

You know, the thing that bugs me most about flinging "Gyarados weak" is that Gyarados is actually WEAKER now than in Advance, and the reasoning for its terror inspiration is driven, like Infernape, on the basis that every Gyarados has the right moves to counter someone's team.

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ok lol I could sit here and copy paste the myriad calculations I already have about Gyarados but I have work to do so "I'll be brief" but come on, weaker than in Advance? Gyarados literally could not do anything at all to Skarmory in Advance, and being walled by the game's #1 physical wall is the reason it was low-tier OU. In fact, the only reason, I'd argue, that it wasn't considered by some to be BL is because of Magneton, and "with Magneton support, x pokemon can sweep" bugs me about as much as "Gyarados weak" bugs you now.

FIRST: "Bulky" Gyarados no longer has been given its 265 speed, meaning +Speed Gengar, Jolteon, Starmie, Azelf, and Raikou come in and tear its head off with Tbolt Since it only hits 334 after a DD.

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I think you're assuming that Gyarados has to DD everytime it shows its intimidating face, which isn't true at all and not the way any smart battler should use a Dragon Dance pokemon inthe first place. You are also forgetting that none of the above pokemon besides Starmie (and Azelf obviously) were ever switched into Gyarads in Advance. That distinction was reserved mainly for the aforementioned Skarmory, with whom a smart battler could attempt to contend by using Magneton, or Zapdos, about whom nobody could do anything as far as Gyarados was concerned. Zapdos was probably a top-five OU poke in competitive play depending on what era you're talking about (pre-Sleep Talk and -Baton Pass Zapdos weren't as threatening), definitely top-10 all time, and completely shut down Gyarados in Advance.

All that has changed now with the advent of a Physical Waterfall and the addition of Ice Fang. Gyarados's top two counter in Skarmory and Zapdos are, ironically, just about the worst pokemon you can switch into it in DP. I've posted about why I actually want Skarmory in on my Gyarados before, but I'll reiterate that it does about 5-7% net-damage to Gyarados with Drill Peck and literally cannot do anything else because of Taunt, including Feather Rest or Whirlwind. Zapdos faces a similar, ironically 180°-turn fate — it risks being OHKOed by any of Waterfall/Ice Fang/Stone Edge, at least one of which Gyarados will obviously have, and it risks this because after a DD Gyarados will, of course, be faster than the 328 speed Zapdos can reach (without Adherence Scarf or course).

It's not really a coincidence then, when you think about it, that people like myself are hyping Gyarados up so much now. The fact that its top two counters in Advance are just about the worst pokemon you can switch into in now in DP is cause for major concern...that and the fact that most people's teams don't seem to see what I and others have as well.

I'm also wary of the "safe switch-in" logic, since prediction is key, and I don;t know what number's you're using for defenses, but its a pretty same bet not everything is going to use 0 HP/Def, the only reason to assume such a thing is if you follow the "offense offense offense" metagame idea... and yet here we are loading Gyara up with defensive EVs, which would seem to contradict that notion.

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I've suggested 384HP/235Def to help it counter Heracross and Garchomp, the latter obviously ironically a pokemon you (and I) don't see the big deal about, but the irony for me being more because "my" Gyarados counters it pretty darn effectively. Gyarados can load up its defenses becaue it has DD to still achieve its "offense offense offense", though. Its "counters" need to do the same in turn, of course, but sadly we have seen numerous team rates with Starmie having Choice Glasses + Rapid Spin, Swampert without Stone Edge, and people STILL thinking its a good idea to switch Skarmory into Gyarados. So it's more than fair to say that most people aren't thinking about Gyarados properly, at least not before like a week ago.

Perhaps all I'm really saying is that we should wait and see what Competitor brings before we start talking about 6-0 sweeps from the likes of Gyarados or Garchomp.

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I only really say that in the context of people's teams when it's obvious they can't do anything to or about Gyarados at all. Garchomp was (is) overhyped, yes, I will agree with you 100% there. But I think many of us have overlooked just how much Gyarados has changed by gaining Waterfall and Ice Fang (and Stone Edge I guess), even in spite of losing its physical HP Flying.

I agree that Gyarados is a monster to contend with and that Garchomp is somewhat over-rated, at least in the grand scheme of things.

This RMT thread is inspiring, I'm going to run off and hammer out some threat analyses for myself for team-building. That seems to be the best way to go at it, looking at how well thought-out this team is.

Edit:

Phuquoph said:

Bronzong can't really hurt my team though. I might consider Fire Fang on Garchomp to take care it a little better than Fire Blast though.

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I think that Fire Blast should be enough to take on Bronzong, it should do more damage than Fire Fang anyways and also helps out should you run across Skarmory moreso than Fire Fang.

Zapdos can still counter Gyarados, but it's a bit extreme. He can be EVed to survive a DD Stone Edge (just). Adamant max attack DD Stone Edge does 83 - 98% to 368 HP/270 Defense Zapdos. Any previous damage or Stealth Rock means Zapdos is screwed of course. However, I'm realizing that "x counters y - once" is in some cases the best you can do in DP.

Phuquoph said:

Zapdos can still counter Gyarados, but it's a bit extreme. He can be EVed to survive a DD Stone Edge (just). Adamant max attack DD Stone Edge does 83 - 98% to 368 HP/270 Defense Zapdos. Any previous damage or Stealth Rock means Zapdos is screwed of course. However, I'm realizing that "x counters y - once" is in some cases the best you can do in DP.

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I'd personally run a bold Zapdos with Light Screen / Thunderbolt / (HP Grass / Ice) / Feather Rest myself, it does a good job helping the team take AG Salamence as well. Zapdos is a pretty big threat to Gyarados so long as it can take two hits from a DDed Gyara.