Is middle ground just middling? (Team)

I call this team "middle ground" because it is neither overly defensive nor overly offensive.

Special thanks to Phuquoph, Surgo, Jumpman, Hyra, Misty & DevilinDenial for all of your intelligent, insightful posts and your continued dedication to helping others improve. If you see a set of EVs or a moveset that seems familiar, please don't be offended; consider my opening paragraph the "opening credits," if you will.

I've been working on my team intermittenly and reading through countless posts in this forum; comparing myself to other teams and checking to make sure that I counter the top sweepers & Swampert, while making sure than I maintain an offensive pressure on the opponent. Hopefully my team can embody this. Here it is, a week's worth of work:

Swampert @ Leftovers
Torrent
Impish (-SA +Def)
240 HP, 56 Atk, 214 Def
-Stealth Rock
-Earthquake
-Ice Beam
-Stone Edge

I know I'm the millionth person to both use AND start with Pert, but I don't have many "starter-quality" guys on my team. Stealth Rock for kicks. The idea here is to cause major pain to Garch, Tyra, Sala and Gyara -- to say nothing of Metagross and whatever else needs a spanking. Swampert always has the weight of the world on his shoulders. . . . Always 2KOs all those guys without prior damage (can't ever OHKO without overhauling EVs, anyway), so he of course needs all the help he can get.

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Flash Fire
Modest or Timid
50 HP, 208 or 252 SA, 252 or 208 Spd
-Flamethrower
-Dragon Pulse
-Explosion
-Flash Cannon/Hidden Power Grass

Can't switch straight into Tyra, but keeps it from sweeping in most cases. . . . Considering Overheat over Flamethrower, though without Modest I'm not sure it's worth it. A simply fantastic counter to Azelf, and backs up my team very well. Explosion, even with a -Atk Nature, because without any kind of recovery he can only switch in so many times. 399 Speed with Scarf, which is reasonable and allows him to scare Starmie & Dugtio. Starmie is a total bitch for this team, sadly. While Lustre Cannon is great against Tyranitar, Land Power still 2KOs, kills Electrics and other Heatran. Pert will want to switch into this guy 90% of the time. Salamence's Hydro Pump is scary here, but otherwise switches in, outspeeds and kills CG Sala.

EDIT: If I go with Flash Cannon, Timid. If I go with HPGrass, Modest. Lost Earth Power. Considering Phuquoph's RestTalk starter.

Gliscor @ Leftovers
Sand Veil
Impish (-SA +Def)
252 HP, 6 Atk, 252 Def
-Aerial Ace
-Knock Off
-Earthquake
-Roost

ADH's set. The new premier physical wall this gen. A perfect counter to Heracross. Enough to 2KO various other physical sweepers, such as: Tyra, Sala, Garch, et all, depending on the Fang. His Ice weakness ensures that he has to be played very carefully around things that may carry Hidden Power, such as Electivire/Infernape, though oddly he can take a Gyara Ice Fang. Hyper Cutter keeps his "teeth" in check, which I feel outweighs an Evasion boost. Unsure of which fang benefits my team more at this point; Pert and my next guy can take Gyarados on, so I'm thinking Ice. Has nothing on Swampert or Gyarados. Can take Crunches for a team that otherwise has Dark issues.

EDIT: Dropped Ice Fang for increased team synergy with either Knock Off or Somersault!
Knock Off is pure awesome and screws everything and anything just enough for the edge I need. With no additional speed investment, Gliscor will come off comfortably in the middle of "fast" and "slow," allowing for some fun comboing with Weavile or Heatran. Both seem viable, but ony one is responsible. Opting for both makes Gliscor more of a utilitarian liability than a defensive force.

EDIT 2: Changed to Sand Veil to coincide with the loss of Ice Fang. Knock Off is sexy.

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Chlorophyll
Impish (-SA +Def)
240 HP, 192 Atk, 76 Def
-Sleep Powder
-Power Whip
-Earthquake
-Leech Seed

Can beat HP Grass Raikou. How quickly everyone forgot about this guy, but I never did. Sleep Powder gives it something to send to the bitches who wall his offensive. Leech Seed is love. Destroys Pert if it uses anything less than Ice Beam; beats Gyarados until it cries. Obviously, a lot resists Grass/Ground, but Leech Seed and Sleep Powder help incapacitate things he can't directly damage (like most Dragons, Skarm, a lot of Grass-types). Can't OHKO Tyra, but switches into CB max+ Crunches like nothing, but can be 2KOed by Stone Edge from the same Tyra due to Sand Stream. Can switch in on anything Rhyperior throws at it and outspeed for the OHKO, even Megahorn.

EDIT: Improved EVs

Weavile @ Choice Band
Pressure
Jolly (-SA +Spd)
6 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spd
-Pursuit
-Ice Punch
-Night Slash
-Brick Break

Weavile doesn't switch in on anything but Ice & Psychic attacks; otherwise, it's a revenge killer or a late-game cleaner. I don't have much to say other than Pursuit is really cool, and I hope this does well. I needed something with decent speed and power, but everything else that's fast is pretty much weak to ice or offensively weak. So there you have it.

EDIT: Maximized potential.

Cresselia @ Leftovers
Levitate
Modest (-Atk +SA)
252 HP, 224 SA, 34 SD
-Ice Beam/Lunar Dance/Light Screen
-Grass Knot
-Psychic
-Moonlight

This was going to be a very special-defensive Uxie until I realized the only reason to use Uxie over Cresselia is Somersault, which I wasn't planning on using. This guy is just plain HARD to EV for. 266 SA to OHKO a bunch of friends, moderately good at sponging hits. Can't take a Salamence CG Meteor, but my Heatran can. Craps on Starmie, at least. Originally, I wanted Light Screen to help my team out, however I realised I'd have much more fun antagonizing Gengar and Infernape with Psychic. Won't help against a Heracross, though. Even more than Light Screen, I wish I had a spot for Crescent Dance. I could junk Ice Beam since I already have a lot of Dragon counters, but I dunno.

Explaination of EVs: Max HP, enough SA to OHKO just about whatever I need to with Grass Knot, Ice Beam and Psychic, rest in SD.

Threat Analysis Key:
great
just OK or situational

Tyranitar: Swampert, Tangrowth, Gliscor
Heracross: Gliscor, Heatran
Infernape: Cresselia, Heatran (depends)
Garchomp: Swampert, Gliscor, Cresselia
Electivire: Swampert, Gliscor, Tangrowth, Cresselia (depends)
Raikou: Tangrowth, Swampert, Gliscor
Starmie: Cresselia, Weaville
Gyarados: Swampert, Tangrowth
Azelf: Heatran, Weaville
Salamence: Swampert, Heatran, Cresselia, Gliscor
Heatran: Swampert, Heatran
Rhyperior: Tangrowth, Cresselia
Porygon-Z: Weaville, Heatran, Cresselia
Swampert: Tangrowth, Cresselia
And Weavile revenge kills anything but Ninjask, really. Okay, that's a bit of an overstatement, but still.
Obviously, I have issues with Boltbeamers. I may or may not be able to snuff opposing Electivire. I have no Haze or Phazer, so Baton Pass teams and sweepers that set up on me will probably. . . sweep.

Phew. After three long nights I'm satisfied enough to post it. Fire away, gentlemen!

Very, very well-crafted team and post, good work. The only stuff you'll constantly have trouble with are repeated special threats that don't need set-up, like AG Mence and Starmie (Togekiss isn't a Starmie counter, let alone a great one), which is the reason Blissey will be in such high demand. This kind of puts you in a bind because Wish kind of guaratees Togekiss won't get the instant recovery it needs, and Feather Rest dictates that Heatran and Co. will not either. Feather Rest is probably better for your team, though, since Togekiss is so important to it.

Happy to know my Gliscor set is helpful. I'd keep it as a physical wall that counters things with those juicy 2HKOs rather than making it a BPer, which would sacrifice two of its moves to a stat up and BP, ruining its good coverage of common metagame threats. Being able to take on CBtar / Heracross / Garchomp / (DD/CB)mence is too good to pass up in making it a Baton Passer.

I'm working on a bulkier Togekiss right now that doesn't absolutely need to outspeed Heracross, but it depends much more on switching into the right attack than the faster Togekiss set. For my team I want a Togekiss that takes special attacks like a bitch, since I too generally dislike Blissey except for the bizarre Calm Mind Blissey, which is strangely appealing.

Edit: eh, Togekiss regardless seems to be AGmence weak, it takes too many EVs in special defense and HP to take a Meteoric Swarm, which hurts its ability to take on Heracross. I suppose I'll look elsewhere for my AGmence counter.

*Looks at Lapras*

Edit #2: happy to see you're considering HP Grass over Cross Chop instead of Earthquake. Cross Chop is mainly useful for Blissey, Snorlax, and Tyranitar, all of which you can deal reasonable damage to with Earthquake while taking on Metagross and Jirachi and not being walled by them. HP Grass is *mainly* for Swampert and Rhyperior, but I suppose it could prove useful in other situations, such as if Gastrodon becomes popular.

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I worked my tail off trying to get this just right. Definitely considering Blissey, but I'm not sure what set I need. If I need the SToss version, I don't have to worry about HPIce Raikou. The CM version at least has some sweeping power and makes Starmie cry, but no SToss, so Raikou could technically out-CM me or (rarely) Roar me out. I haven't used Blissey in advance because of how gay it was, so I can't claim to be a Blissey expert.

On the other hand, I could keep my Togekiss, fiddle it's EVs a bit and just accept that Starmie and Salamence on the same team will mean my demise, barring flawless prediction.

ANinyMouse said:

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I worked my tail off trying to get this just right. Definitely considering Blissey, but I'm not sure what set I need. If I need the SToss version, I don't have to worry about HPIce Raikou. The CM version at least has some sweeping power and makes Starmie cry, but no SToss, so Raikou could technically out-CM me or (rarely) Roar me out. I haven't used Blissey in advance because of how gay it was, so I can't claim to be a Blissey expert.

On the other hand, I could keep my Togekiss, fiddle it's EVs a bit and just accept that Starmie and Salamence on the same team will mean my demise, barring flawless prediction.

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Or you could run Light Screen on something, Tangrowth can do that IIRC, making your team take those special hits much much better. Togekiss could Light Screen too but you'd give up your flinch hax for it probably. Personally Leech Seed on Tangrowth is nifty, but Light Screen would boost your team's defensive capabilities immensely and allow Tangrowth to take on HP Grass Raikou much better too (it does ~25-30% damage with Thunderbolt IIRC).

Your 3x Ice weakness is pretty noticeable. Your only response to an Earthquake/Ice Beam Swampert (2hkos Tangrowth) will be your own Swampert. An opposing Earthquake/Ice Punch/HP Grass/Thunderpunch Electivire will be hell.

ADH said:

Or you could run Light Screen on something, Tangrowth can do that IIRC, making your team take those special hits much much better. Togekiss could Light Screen too but you'd give up your flinch hax for it probably. Personally Leech Seed on Tangrowth is nifty, but Light Screen would boost your team's defensive capabilities immensely and allow Tangrowth to take on HP Grass Raikou much better too (it does ~25-30% damage with Thunderbolt IIRC).

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This guy is a genious. Light Screen is perfect for this team. Either Tangrowth or Togekiss should carry it. I would put it on Tangrowth because of its sub-par SDef and the fact that TWave is more permanent than Leech Seed.

One thing you are missing is a Starmie counter. AG Starmie would rip this team to shreds. Togekiss cannot take Bolt or Beam, even from a Rapid Spin variant because of Starmie's high base SAtk. Swampert, Heatran, and Gliscor fall to STAB Surfs. Only Togekiss can elicit the Thunderbolt you need to get Electivire in, and once they know you have Electivire they will use Ice Beam on Togekiss. Tangrowth dies to Ice Beam and Starmie can Natural Cure out of sleep. Cresselia or, gasp, Regice would be a much better Special wall for the team. Both have super-effective moves on Starmie and carry TWave. They might be uber weak to Cross, but you have Gliscor.

Infernape also causes major problems. I'm not sure what to do to remedy this. Sure Glion has Aerial Ace, but it hates taking STAB SD'd Flare Drives, even with Feather Rest. Metalkid's DP damage calc doesn't have Flare Drive, so I can't run the numbers, but Fire Blast after a Scheme is a OHKO on Max HP Glion. Swampert can't take either mixed or special Infernape because of Grass Rope. I have a feeling this team will be close to 6-0'd by a Special Infernape.

I think you can take Starmie relatively well. It'll take some heavy predicting but you should be alright. You can aim a Tbolt to Electivire, Pert, or Tangrowth, an Ice Beam to Heatran or Pert, and a Surf to nearly everyone except Heatran.

With Light Screen and Twave support, the Starmie will probably only trade KOs before you bring it down. Respectable enough for your self-acknowledged "team weak."

If you take out the special sweepers early, it should turn a win for you.

Hyra said:

One thing you are missing is a Starmie counter. AG Starmie would rip this team to shreds. Togekiss cannot take Bolt or Beam, even from a Rapid Spin variant because of Starmie's high base SAtk. Swampert, Heatran, and Gliscor fall to STAB Surfs. Only Togekiss can elicit the Thunderbolt you need to get Electivire in, and once they know you have Electivire they will use Ice Beam on Togekiss. Tangrowth dies to Ice Beam and Starmie can Natural Cure out of sleep. Cresselia or, gasp, Regice would be a much better Special wall for the team. Both have super-effective moves on Starmie and carry TWave. They might be uber weak to Cross, but you have Gliscor.

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Well, the team could possibly handle AG Starmie through smart switches, but it is a pest. Tangrowth can switch into Surf, Heatran can switch into Ice Beam and outspeed, and Electivire can switch into Thunderbolt. AG Starmie is pretty easy to counter with just a bit of smart switching (and it's made easier should Tangrowth have Light Screen up), I'd be more worried about non-AG Starmie who, while it doesn't have the KO power of AG, has the versatility to give the team trouble.

Infernape also causes major problems. I'm not sure what to do to remedy this. Sure Glion has Aerial Ace, but it hates taking STAB SD'd Flare Drives, even with Feather Rest. Metalkid's DP damage calc doesn't have Flare Drive, so I can't run the numbers, but Fire Blast after a Scheme is a OHKO on Max HP Glion. Swampert can't take either mixed or special Infernape because of Grass Rope. I have a feeling this team will be close to 6-0'd by a Special Infernape.

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Special Infernape has trouble with Heatran, Gliscor can take In Fights easily and Heatran can take the Grass Rope or fire attack easily. It's certainly something to watch out for, but it's workable. Gliscor doesn't have much trouble taking on purely physical Infernapes either, Infernape doesn't have good enough defense and is 2HKOed by Earthquake at the absolute worst (can't damage calc right now, but that sounds right).

Edit: yargh, beaten to the punch on prediction.

Looks a solid team, which it should given the amount of time and effort you put in.

Something to remember about Infernape is In Fight's side effect of lowering his defenses. If you lure him into throwing an In Fight (probably at Heatran, if it comes in on a Flamethrower) you can easily take him with Gliscor (and Swampert if it doesn't have Grass Rope), regardless of how little attack EVs the scorpion has. I usually think about situational things like this as it can sometimes dig you out of a hole, although not something you can always rely on.

If you do give up on Togekiss and go with Blissey, I'd like to suggest Seismic Toss/BoltBeam/Softboiled. Not the team player the usual sets are, nor does it have the potential of CM Bliss - it's a midway point between the two.

Togekiss isn't really a counter for Starmie as such, I think my damage calculations involving the two may have been misleading on this. It can take on the typical non-CG sets quite well but you'll need your prediction skills to be dead on to take the CG sets.

I think you need some kind of setup sweeper, probably in place of Electivire. As you stated yourself, you don't have enough Electric weaknesses for him to switch in on and Blissey is more likely to attack your other team members with Seismic Toss/Ice Beam than throw Thunder Waves at them.

PorygonZ, Infernape, Azelf could work, but a Dragon Dancing Tyranitar (yes he can actually do something other than use CB, I was shocked too) could fit well. Tangrowth and Togekiss help to weaken/kill bulky Water and Ground types and Gliscor gets rid of Heracross. Sandstream wouldn't hurt too much as three of your current team are immune and Togekiss can Wish pass to Tangrowth.

The only problem is that Tangrowth doesn't learn Light Screen. It gets Reflect and Amnesia.

Ouch. Not to toot my own flute or anything, but I wondered why I never noticed something as cool as Light Screen. That sure changes things, then. Amnesia isn't that great of an option without a recovery move, and Tangrowth is definitely more of a supporter than a sweeper, anyway.

Then there's the condundrum of Sunny Day and it's implications; how such a weather effect will affect the battle to come is always anyone's guess. For one thing, it would help with Water attacks, but then there's the problem of opposing Fire attacks.

At the end of the day, I feel like going back to Leech Seed or just adding another attack would be best. Morning Sun is so tempermantal. . . .

As for the all-out sweeper slot and the special wall slot, I'll get to work. Somehow I knew there would be room for improvement. I'll put up another edit to my team soon, but the strep throat really is wearing me out. Doesn't help that I suck at swallowing pills. I know I'm too tired when I start considering Ancientpower over HPRock, if even for a few seconds :-P

EDIT: MetalKid's damage calculator is offline, too, and I'm way too tired to have to do everything on paper.

You probably dont want heatran to be timid since you dont want to - attack power to explosion. Also, I would cut electivire, there are plenty of other pokemon you could use in his place.

Electivire was born out of my raw fear of Raikou. Obvioulsly, Raikou is scary, so you can't blame me. Needless to say I think he's going to have to seek other employment options outside of my current Pearl roster.

ANinyMouse said:

Electivire was born out of my raw fear of Raikou. Obvioulsly, Raikou is scary, so you can't blame me.

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Azelf is even scarier though. Maybe you should just stick blissey there to take care of both.

Gligar or Swampert beat Raikou, depending on it's Hidden Power. Heatran covers Azelf, Togekiss paralyzes it if it doesn't have Thunderbolt.

He doesn't really have problems with either of them.

Made some updates.

Replaced Electivire with Weavile, who, although just as hard to get in, does a better job of cleaning up real threats to my team with STAB Dark attacks, including Pursuit. Anything weak to Dark should be afriad when Weavile comes to play. I coulda gone with Heracross, but to be honest, I didn't want to end up too much of a standards whore.

Replaced Togekiss with Cresselia (who seems to be just as common as Swampert, sadly). Unsure of the final moveset, since Light Screen helps my team a lot but so could an extra Ice attack...

Porygon-Z can go over Weavile for a different approach, but I'd have to go with the Agility set, probably, to allow it to perform late-game clean up. I dunno about all that, so I went with Life Orb Weavile.

If not -Atk, then what? Lowering Speed & SA are out of the question, and I need all the SD I can get to keep Salamence & Pory at bay. If I lower Def it sure seems to be putting a lot of stress on Gliscor to unequivocally counter Heracross, but. . . I guess that's fine. If Hera kills something, Heatran can come in for free and threaten with OHKO Flamethrower.

I'll concede a -Def nature might work out.

EDIT: Weavile could be a decent lead, but him dying too quickly would destroy the whole point of him being a late-game cleaner. Takes care of Cresselia leads that might PWN Swampert, but then again Swampert counters his fare share of stuff, and has Stealth Rock. Dunno 'bout that one.

Sorry to double post, but with Stealth Rock on the field do you think Life Orb would be a dumb thing to have on Weavile? Granted, he's not designed to constantly switch in, but despite LO's 10% recoil I like it's flexibility. Conversely, CB allows me to switch in another time or two, but Pursuit hitting a switch is going to be the only way to afford some flexibility.

I'm pretty tired, so tell me if I'm just talking in circles. Or, better yet, what item would you go with? Should I keep Ice Beam on Cresselia, or do I have enough Ice attacks and can I go with a move like Light Screen to help the team, since special sweepers are a bigger problem here than physical ones?

EDIT: CRAP, Mamoswine is gonna be trouble for my team. Good thing almost no one uses that beast, yet. Cresselia can take him.

Your team does not have trouble with mamoswine at all. Don't worry about him. 4 of your pokes can easily take it down, including Tangrowth. You should expect stealth rock to be on every team, since it is currently on wifi. Life orb Weavile should do fine since the extra 30% can really help. Or, if you don't like that, you can take the CB route.

I wanted to revive this thread because I believe the team still needs a bit of work and is a good example of what a good team is made of. I back the CBing Weavile thing completely, and for good reason. And also, the whole point of Weavile is to be Jolly, as it's the sole reason you 100% counter Azelf, Dugtrio, or Gengar.

First, although a 1.3 boost in damage seems enough, a 1.5 boost is far more in all cases and it will help you do things like 3HKO Skarmory and 2HKO Dosadon, which is very important.Next, CBPursuit is fuckin' uber. It OHKOs Azelf almost 100% of the time, while Life Orbed Pursuit doesn't. This helps when you need to get rid of that Dugtrio or annoying Celebi who keeps walling 2/3s of your team.Finally, because Weavile isn't hit Super Effective or even neutral by Pursuit, so it can come in repeatedly. Add that up with that Weavile can clean easily with Blade Test or Ice Punch helps.

Other than that, watch out for DDTar, Swampert can't wall it for long and after that it's easy pickings unless you get Sand Veil HAX from Glicsor. Speaking of which, Glicsor should use Aerial Ace over Ice Fang as you have 3 other Ice Attacks.

Thanks a lot for the advice, Devil, and thanks for the inspiration to give Tangrowth a try.

I tweaked Weavile and Gliscor and made note of it in my first post. I've started the begining stages of breeding these babies (though I gotta wait 'til Diamond drops stateside for Cressela and Heatran). After I have this team built, I'm immediately going to move into a less standard team that I'm keeping under wraps for the moment.

Since I still have time until I get my Heatran, I'm going to run some calcs on my free time and see if Timid really is weakening Explosion too much. Though, I'm sure you'd agree, if there's one physical move you'd want to use with a-Atk nature, it'd be Explosion. Still, something to look into.

I'd probably use a -Speed nature, lol, as Heatran reaches 227 Speed with a -Speed nature, which is exactly 340 speed with AS, whch is fast enough. I greatly suggest Overheat on Heatran, as with a Flash Fire boost, you 2HKO Salamence, Flygon and Garchomp.

Knock Off is better on Glion, as Glion can only take so many CBed hits, and KOing off a CBTar's CB rocks.

340 doesn't beat Infernape or Jolly Dugtrio which are two of the main reasons for using Choice Scarf on Heatran, in my opinion.

A neutral nature Explosion still doesn't guarantee the OHKO on Blissey (91 - 100%). I'd rather save Explosion until mid to late game, when whatever Heatran is planning to blow up on is weakened enough to die in one hit.