What is the best set for a Pokemon?

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obi

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In a competitive team, you want to use the best Pokemon for the job. Why would you ever use Manectric when Raikou is available? For this reason, the best set for any given Pokemon is sometimes not the most generally effective.

For instance, you might think that Vileplume's most powerful set is Swords Dance, Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, Razor Leaf, but most of the time, Victreebel does that better, so why would you use Vileplume to do that instead of Victreebel? If you give it a Sunny Day, Solar Beam, Sleep Powder, Hidden Power Ice / Fire set, why not use Exeggutor? Those sets may be powerful, but they are outclassed by other Pokemon with the same set, so there's no reason to use them on Vileplume, except in some rare cases ("I like Vileplume's better defenses on my Swords Dancer!"). However, Vileplume does have some interesting moves in Aromatherapy, which can be combined with other moves to make sure your Vileplume isn't just a worse Blissey / Celebi (you'd have a hard time justifying Aromatherapy, Leech Seed, Hidden Power Grass, Moonlight, as Celebi can use Heal Bell, Leech Seed, Hidden Power Grass, Recover with more effectiveness).

I'm just using this as an example, so if you disagree with what I said, then I'd just use the example of Suicune vs. Wailord, why would you ever give Wailord Rest, Sleep Talk, Surf, Ice Beam, when Suicune can do that set better? Sure, Wailord might be able to take a couple weaker hits with that set, but Suicune can do everything it can do better with that set.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I saw a thread a while ago in which people said you shouldn't take other Pokemon into account when determining a good set, and I say that's incorrect. If another Pokemon can do the same job better, why not use that other Pokemon? Roar is a good move on Pokemon like Skarmory, but why would you ever use that over Whirlwind? Sure, you can use Flame Wheel, but wouldn't a higher power Fire move do you more good?



/edit: Because this topic is so old, and because I am departing from the original subject matter, my responses to the comments can be read here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1104937
 
Very good post Obi. This really reinforces the idea that some people need to get over using their "favorites" in battle with movesets that another Pokemon is more capable of utilizing.

If you insist on using a certain Pokemon, at least use their exclusive movepool for an innovative set that no other Pokemon is better at using.
 
IMO it depends on what pokemon the Trainer likes best. For exapmple, I use Luxray as a Toxi-Shuffler/Psuedo-hazer, when pokemon like Skarmory can get the job done better. So, IMO it all depends about the Trainer's favorites. I mean shouldn't battling also be about likes/dislikes and originality and not just choosing the best pokemon over the worst.
 

obi

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What I wrote, and what is really the core of Smogon, I'd say, is competitive battling. If you're using your favorites and you want to use a set regardless of effectiveness, then what do you need other people's opinions for? Such a team is made entirely by the trainer, and no arguments can change that, so there's no point in writing anything for it.
 
Basically, what I'm saying is that I saw a thread a while ago in which people said you shouldn't take other Pokemon into account when determining a good set, and I say that's incorrect. If another Pokemon can do the same job better, why not use that other Pokemon? Roar is a good move on Pokemon like Skarmory, but why would you ever use that over Whirlwind? Sure, you can use Flame Wheel, but wouldn't a higher power Fire move do you more good?
I very much agree with the bolded, but disagree with the underlined. Here's why.

I know people who [would] use Roar on Skarmory because they had a standard on a 3rd gen game, and they simply imported it and replaced Substitute with Roost. Drill Peck and Whirlwind wasn't legal back then, and imo it wasn't worth trying to breed for Hidden Power Flying to use with Whirlwind. Although, you could always use a different attack on Skarmory and breed for just Whirlwind, since it doesn't really use Drill Peck much anyway.

But I agree, people post movesets that are clearly outclassed by better pokemon, and usually refuse to change it just because they like that pokemon.

Wow, I missed 4 posts while I was typing that.
 

obi

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Then you'd be keeping Roar because of a game limitation, but if you want the most competitive team, you'd replace it with Whirlwind is what I'm saying. I can understand people who say, "Yeah, Hidden Power Ice is better than Dragon Pulse on Pokemon X, but this is an in-game team, and I'm not willing to invest the time to get a good Hidden Power." That's a totally different argument than "i use surf tyranitar because it pwns fire types. :)"
 

Surgo

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_Dark_Knight_ said:
IMO it depends on what pokemon the Trainer likes best. For exapmple, I use Luxray as a Toxi-Shuffler/Psuedo-hazer, when pokemon like Skarmory can get the job done better. So, IMO it all depends about the Trainer's favorites. I mean shouldn't battling also be about likes/dislikes and originality and not just choosing the best pokemon over the worst.
Except this is Smogon, where we generally play to win.
 

Gouki

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The only reason to use a certain moveset on an inferior Pokemon, other than the blindly stupid idea of "favorites" would be if that pokemon's types fit your team better than the superior Pokemon's would. Although if you have to force a Pokemon in, then you probably need to make a better team.
 

Firestorm

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IMO it depends on what pokemon the Trainer likes best. For exapmple, I use Luxray as a Toxi-Shuffler/Psuedo-hazer, when pokemon like Skarmory can get the job done better. So, IMO it all depends about the Trainer's favorites. I mean shouldn't battling also be about likes/dislikes and originality and not just choosing the best pokemon over the worst.
It'd be better if you could find something Luxray is uniquely good at and play to that strength instead. "Toxi-Shuffling" isn't that great a strategy anyway IMO.

I'll give an example. I like Dragonite. Garchomp is an ugly little god knows what. Instead of going Choice Band Outrage, I use a Dragon Dance Outrage Dragonite. This is something neither Salamence nor Garchomp can do and is effective.

You should always look at things Pokemon can do effectively that others can't and play to those strengths if you really, absolutely must play with your favourites.
 

Gouki

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Because if they didn't there wouldn't be any originality.
I have what I think are effective teams, and they also happen to contain Pokemon that, for the most part, I do like.

And I didn't say that you shouldn't play favorites with your Pokemon, but that maybe you shouldn't be playing on Smogon.
 
Surgo, sorry, I just went on the defensive side because I use Luxray instead of others, I guess I got carried away but i see what everyone is saying. Although, I am sticking to my Luxray, just to be original, I doubt many people thought of using Luxray as a Toxi-Shuffler/Pseudo-hazer...

EDIT: well, Firestorm, my Luxray actually does pretty well in-game and against others. My luxray is like this: (just so you can see why it is effective most of the time)
Luxray@ Brightpowder
Jolly Nature/ Intimidate Ability
EVs: 252 Atk/ 252 Spd. / 6 HP
-Toxic
-Roar
-Double Team
-Thunder Fang
 

Firestorm

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Because if they didn't there wouldn't be any originality.
No, using your favourites with the same set as pokemon who do it better than them isn't original. It's the same formula again and again. I use my favourites. I play them to their strengths, not as a "poor man's Salamence" or "poor man's Skarmory".
 
In a competitive team, you want to use the best Pokemon for the job. Why would you ever use Manectric when Raikou is available? For this reason, the best set for any given Pokemon is sometimes not the most generally effective.

For instance, you might think that Vileplume's most powerful set is Swords Dance, Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, Razor Leaf, but most of the time, Victreebel does that better, so why would you use Vileplume to do that instead of Victreebel? If you give it a Sunny Day, Solar Beam, Sleep Powder, Hidden Power Ice / Fire set, why not use Exeggutor? Those sets may be powerful, but they are outclassed by other Pokemon with the same set, so there's no reason to use them on Vileplume, except in some rare cases ("I like Vileplume's better defenses on my Swords Dancer!"). However, Vileplume does have some interesting moves in Aromatherapy, which can be combined with other moves to make sure your Vileplume isn't just a worse Blissey / Celebi (you'd have a hard time justifying Aromatherapy, Leech Seed, Hidden Power Grass, Moonlight, as Celebi can use Heal Bell, Leech Seed, Hidden Power Grass, Recover with more effectiveness).

I'm just using this as an example, so if you disagree with what I said, then I'd just use the example of Suicune vs. Wailord, why would you ever give Wailord Rest, Sleep Talk, Surf, Ice Beam, when Suicune can do that set better? Sure, Wailord might be able to take a couple weaker hits with that set, but Suicune can do everything it can do better with that set.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I saw a thread a while ago in which people said you shouldn't take other Pokemon into account when determining a good set, and I say that's incorrect. If another Pokemon can do the same job better, why not use that other Pokemon? Roar is a good move on Pokemon like Skarmory, but why would you ever use that over Whirlwind? Sure, you can use Flame Wheel, but wouldn't a higher power Fire move do you more good?
I agree for the most part but i will play devil advocate for a little.Why use Dragonite when you can use Salamence?Why use Flygon when their is Garchomp?They are pokemon who are clear better but you choose with lesser power to use something different but still use something competitive.
 

Gouki

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Surgo, sorry, I just went on the defensive side because I use Luxray instead of others, I guess I got carried away but i see what everyone is saying. Although, I am sticking to my Luxray, just to be original, I doubt many people thought of using Luxray as a Toxi-Shuffler/Pseudo-hazer...

EDIT: well, Firestorm, my Luxray actually does pretty well in-game and against others. My luxray is like this: (just so you can see why it is effective most of the time)
Luxray@ Brightpowder
Jolly Nature/ Intimidate Ability
EVs: 252 Atk/ 252 Spd. / 6 HP
-Toxic
-Roar
-Double Team
-Thunder Fang
The reason no one has thought of a Toxi-Shuffling/Pseudo-Hazing Luxray goes back to the whole point of this thread...
 
Dragonite gets Dragon Dance and Outrage, which Salamence does it. Focus/elemental punches too I guess.

Flygon gets U-Turn, Roost, and Levitate.

I'm not saying those are better than Salamence/Garchomp, but if I used either of these instead, I would use those moves on them, because nobody can do it better (unlike Choice Band/Scarf Outrage Dragonite)
 

Gouki

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I agree for the most part but i will play devil advocate for a little.Why use Dragonite when you can use Salamence?Why use Flygon when their is Garchomp?They are pokemon who are clear better but you choose lesser power to use something different but still use something competitive.
As Firestorm said, you would use Dragonite because he can learn DD-Outrage, while Mence and Gar cannot, not to mention that his superior defences make using Liche Berry feasible.
 
IMO it depends on what pokemon the Trainer likes best. For exapmple, I use Luxray as a Toxi-Shuffler/Psuedo-hazer, when pokemon like Skarmory can get the job done better. So, IMO it all depends about the Trainer's favorites. I mean shouldn't battling also be about likes/dislikes and originality and not just choosing the best pokemon over the worst.
I believe the point he's trying to make is, IF you want to use a favorite, make sure you make it unique. Otherwise, you're just going to get outclassed and lose. The best set may not be best for that Pokemon, because another one uses it better...thus, take advantage of your uniqueness and give it a unique set that no other Pokemon can do, or can't do as well.

There's nothing wrong with using favorites. The problem comes when you choose Pokemon B and make it do the EXACT same thing as Pokemon A, who does it much better. It's like everyone who bought an N-Gage. Are you different? Sure. Does that benefit you in any way? No.
 
Having Gengar, Skaramory, Blissy, Slalamence, Gyarados, and Tyaranitar on the same team gets dull and repetitive, same for those that only use their top 6 favorites, mix it up, you don't have to use the same shit over and over too win. Which was the point of my last post.
 

chaos

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Having Gengar, Skaramory, Blissy, Slalamence, Gyarados, and Tyaranitar on the same team gets dull and repetitive, same for those that only use their top 6 favorites, mix it up, you don't have to use the same shit over and over too win. Which was the point of my last post.
i'm not really sure that's a point when it comes to winning a tournament, but nonetheless an important point regardless. most of the pokemon playable in OU regardless of their actual tier have SOMETHING that they are good at; not playing to their strengths for the sake of being original is foolhardy. :toast:
 
thats the truth, and worthwhile to state. however, most pokemon whose "best" set is used more effectively by another poke are covered by being moved down in the tier system. in your Wailord/Suicune example, the reason I might use Wailord with Rest/Sleep Talk/Surf/Ice Beam could be because Suicune is simply not available in UU (or NU) battles. so i dont really agree with that particular example. otherwise however, when the pokemon are in the same tier, or in the strange case that the better-off pokemon is in a lower tier, the "best" set should be adjusted and taken into account when figuring out your poke's set. i.e. CSGallade over Medicham. thanks
 
I believe the point he's trying to make is, IF you want to use a favorite, make sure you make it unique. Otherwise, you're just going to get outclassed and lose. The best set may not be best for that Pokemon, because another one uses it better...thus, take advantage of your uniqueness and give it a unique set that no other Pokemon can do, or can't do as well.

There's nothing wrong with using favorites. The problem comes when you choose Pokemon B and make it do the EXACT same thing as Pokemon A, who does it much better. It's like everyone who bought an N-Gage. Are you different? Sure. Does that benefit you in any way? No.
Actually, I don't think thats what he meant, but I completely agree with everything you said.
 
obi, I completely agree with you, but the fact of the matter is people will always be stubborn. I am a perfect example of this. Lets take the whole Salamance over Dragonite situation. Probably 90-97 out of 100 trainers are going to take Salamance. Why? Because he is better. i am not doubting salamance's potental, but like my sig says, I freaking hate the third generation, so I will never use a Salamance. It's just my personal choice. Can I win without a Salamance on my team? Sure. Can I win with a Dragonite on my team? I don't see why not.

I guess the final point I want to make is that by being stubborn, some people, like myself, are putting a built in challenge to their game. It's kinda like when you bring in a bunch of UU/BL guys and destroy noob's ubers online.

It can make you feel proud of yourself.
 
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