NFE Pokemon in UU

To stop the Tier Discussion thread getting bogged down with this subject, we have decided it warrants a thread of its own.

This is place to discuss whether or not NFE Pokemon should be allowed into UU battles. Should all Pokemon be allowed in regardless of which stage they are in their evolutionary line? Should they only be allowed if they are significantly different to their final evolution stage? Which NFE Pokemon are likely to be too powerful for UU?

A few Pokemon that immediately spring to mind are those that got evolutions in this generation. Electabuzz and Misdreavous were decent UU Pokemon in ADV and they both got evolutions. Should this stop them from participating in UU? Other Pokemon who are usually brought up in this debate include Chansey, Kadabra and Haunter.

As with all discussion threads, try to keep your posts civil and back up all your opinions with facts and ideally, battle experience.

A seperate (emphasis) Tier list for NFE is useful. I have been swept in UU by Scythers and think it's unfair, sicne it's Base Attack/Speed are higher than that of Infernape's. Although it's cheap, I can't do anything about it really. I have used a Sneasel in UU and swept entire teams, I don't think anything in UU except Persian or scarfed Pokes outspeed Sneasel, and Persian only ties. I think it is unfair and takes away fun from UU games, since I can just compose a team of Sneasel/Scyther/Kadabra/Haunter in UU and it'll be like playing OU all over again-and that's the point of UU-to get away from OU.

Rhydon is worse with CB Edgequake.

Scyther is hardy unfair in UU. If you're basing your argument that Scyther should not be allowed in UU on the fact that it evolves, then that's just dumb. Scizor plays very differently than Scyther. It is differently typed, has drastically different stats, and has a more varied movepool. It might as well be a different Pokemon all together.

However, I whole-heartedly agree that NFEs like Haunter and Kadabra should not be allowed. They don't (for the most part) play any differently than their fully-evolved forms, and, in my opinion, just open up a big ol' can of worms that the UU environment really doesn't need, and wasn't designed to accommodate. They would drastically alter the UU environment and would very likely cause an imbalance in the existing UU tier. They would centralize the metagame around them, and turn UU into OU-lite. Really, if you want to use Haunter, Kadabra, or any of the like for any reason other than "ZOMG it's my favorite Pokeman!", then why not just play OU? Seems like you're just trying to find a nice little loophole for you and your OU team to hop through.

Pokemon that were not meant to evolve when they were first introduced (Scyther, Misdreavus, Electabuzz, etc.), Pokemon that play decidedly differently, or have some characteristic that would alter their style of play from that of their fully-evolved forms should be allowed in competitive play. They existed in UU perfectly fine before they were given evolutions, so why remove such a huge chunk of an already balanced tier simply because they got said evolutions? Leaving them in UU won't hurt nearly as much as removing them, in my opinion.

However, something like Chansey or Rhydon that was deemed OU before it was given an evolution would still unbalance UU, and should not allowed in UU for that reason alone. I'd bet a lot Chansey and Rhydon could still function very well in OU.


Honestly, do you really want to have to deal with all the OU BS as well as everything in UU?

NFEs of OU pokes do not belong in UU unless they can be grandfathered in by the fact that they were previous gen pokemon OR they serve a different role than their evolution (ie, Scyther being slightly faster than Scizor with worse typing and defense). UU is not OUlite, it's a fully seperate tier.

Scyther is fine in UU too, the most common UU physical walls, Aggron and Torkoal, both carry super effective moves and Aggron x4 resists Scyther's best attacks. Both of them can carry Stealth Rock too which Scyther is x4 weak against.

i_am_here said:

I have been swept in UU by Scythers and think it's unfair,

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I think Scyther is generally accepted to be a different pokemon than Scizor. Unlike Tangela/Tangrowth, Scyther and Scizor have completely different stats, different typing, and serve somewhat different purposes on a team. As to whether Scyther is BL-worthy or not, that's more of a question for the BL/UU thread.

Aggron x4 resists Scyther's best attacks

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Scyther has Brick Break, and would probably use it just to deal with the Rock/Steel types.


Anyways...my opinion is that pokemon with stats that are significantly different or that have abilities/typing should be considered different and should have the possibility of being placed in UU. So, that would include things like Scyther (already stated why), Metang (Attack greatly increases upon evolution), Electrabuzz (different ability, has a different stat distribution), and Shelgon (different stat distribution/typing), but not include things like Hippopotas, Haunter, Kadabra, Chansey, and such. Of course, whether a pokemon's stats are different enough is a rather subjective question (take Dusknoir/Dusclops), but that would be the fairest solution IMO, since I don't think we should prevent a completely unique pokemon from being used just because it's a pre-evolution (Take Shelgon, there's no other pure-dragon pokemon that focuses mainly on physical defense).

If a rule comes out on NFEs, it should be simple.

I think most people would accept the following rule to be applied to NFEs:
* If the NFE has a stat that is higher than its fully evolved form or a different ability, then it should be written in the tier list.

This would seem like a good place to start. Scyther should be allowed because it has significantly higher speed than Scizor, making it a very different pokemon aside from movepool. I would argue that the above definition is too broad as it includes Murkrow and Tangela, and even Aipom, but keeping the rules simple should be a priority.

Some notable pokemon that should be listed are as follows:
* Trapinch has arena trap as opposed to Flygon Levitate.
* Scyther, as mentioned above, has higher speed.
* Electabuzz and Magmar are also allowed because of higher speed. Etc. etc.
* Dragonair and Pupitar have different abilities than Dragonite / Tyranitar, making them potentially a different pokemon.
* Charmeleon would not be allowed. It has blaze as an ability and every stat is outclassed by charizard. If this is a problem, then we can broaden the definition to include pokemon of different typing.
* Nicadia has a different ability than both of its evolutions. >_> So under this rule, it would have to be listed.

As said, this is a little broad, but I assert that if we come up with a rule, it should be like this one. It is a simple rule with little room for an inaccurate interpretation. Only two conditions and both conditions are easy to understand and applicable.

Why would Chansey unbalance UU and function any differently there than Blissey does in OU? There are plenty of STAB powerful fighting attacks among other things that would easily destroy it.

Phuquoph said:

A few Pokemon that immediately spring to mind are those that got evolutions in this generation. Electabuzz and Misdreavous were decent UU Pokemon in ADV and they both got evolutions. Should this stop them from participating in UU? Other Pokemon who are usually brought up in this debate include Chansey, Kadabra and Haunter.

As with all discussion threads, try to keep your posts civil and back up all your opinions with facts and ideally, battle experience.

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Here is the almighty exhaustive list of NFEs tha would actually warrant discussion, mostly because they either were previously fully evolved (even if it was back in RBY) or they have the stats/movepool to work competently in UU:

RBY Origin:
Pikachu
Golbat
Kadabra
Magneton
Haunter
Cubone
Lickitung
Rhydon
Scyther
Electabuzz
Magmar
Tangela
Seadra
Chansey

GSC origin:
Togetic
Piloswine
Aipom
Yanma
Murkrow
Misdreavus
Sneasel
Gligar
Porygon2

RSE origin:
Nosepass
Trapinch
Dusclops
Clamperl

DP origin:
Cranidos

You can split hairs if you like, but basically this is a listing of pokemon with an item like Light Ball or Thick Club, Previously fully evolved pokemon, or pokemon that have the speed and/or movepool attack power and type to sweep.

Damanzi said:

Why would Chansey unbalance UU and function any differently there than Blissey does in OU? There are plenty of STAB powerful fighting attacks among other things that would easily destroy it.

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Heh, well I suppose it can work differently if you decide to shove Lucky Punch on to it, but off of 35 base special attack, that's obviously not gonna happen be very good, even if it does differentiate it from Blissey.

But seriously, in my opinion, I've used NFEs in standard play and such before, and I agree that if they have certain advantages over their evolved forms, that they should be allowed in UU play just fine.

Of course Clamperl/Trapinch/Pikachu/Scyther will be allowed, but yeah.

Things with a completely different type than their evolutions, such as Surskit should be allowed. No I am not talking about Azurill even if it is a different type.

Also things with any stats that aren't completely outclassed by their evolutions and don't have the same ability.

Yeah, most of this has already been said in this thread, I'm just reiterating it, as I believe it is the best way to go about this.

Ok, Scyther is unusual in that it is REALLY different from Scizor. It is THE most common example of a NFE that should be considered completely separately from it's FE form because of different typing/base spread.

Let's face it-- not all NFE pokemon are made equal.

Seeing a Magikarp running around UU (LOL) is not the same thing as seeing a Wynaut running around UU. O.o

In other words, it is impossible to make a sweeping statement about all NFE's regaurding whether they can or can't (based on strength) run amuck in UU.

That said, UU has always had the tradition of being the place where people can try out different pokemon in an a metagame that's completely from OU; It's always been that we didn't want UU to become OU "lite," which is why the tradition of blocking NFE from UU.

That said, it's also been common to believe pokemon who are very different from their evolved forms (IE they are capable of doing something their evolved form can't), they should be considered separately from the evolved form. A different line, a different pokemon-- in essence, a different fully evolved poke, a different "Final Form."

Scyther is a speedy sweeper while scizor is not. It's typing is also different.

Pikachu can use light orb.

Poliwhirl & Murkrow each have 20+ base speed compared to their evolved forms, which really can matter.

These pokes, who are capable of doing something better than their evolved form, are a bit different and ought to be considered separately. That says nothing about whether they are actually let into UU based on whether their strength is too great for it. Pikachu is a good example of a "Final-form" NFE who might be too strong for UU.

The other issue that came up is whether or not "legacy pokes," former UUs who are now NFE, should be allowed back to UU.

My opinion is that they should be judged in the same way as other NFEs. Why should they get special priveledges just because their FE's came later? And who knows what pokes will get FE's in generations to come? I could have enjoyed using Staryu in UU all this time if only Starmie hadn't appeared until this generation!! WTF?? A stretched example I know, but you see my point.


My opinion:
-Judge "Final Form" NFEs (NFEs who do something better than their evolved form) separate from their FE's, and tier them based on their strength.

-Take out all NFEs from competition who are just weaker versions of the FE's (if people want to use them just for fum, only allow them in the tier of their FE).

-Ignore whether or not a poke like Gligar has been around. It's just not fair to give it special treatment just because it's FE came out late. Screw "grandfathering" because we just don't know how far or how long it could go-- every single family could get some new awesome evolution/alternate evolution in this or that generation to come!


That said, this set up still allows to take a look at pokes like electabuzz, tangela and murkrow, because they have something that sets them apart from their FE (in the case of these guys, it's speed).

I don't get the idea of "ou-lite."

I mean seriously, I don't play OU usually, but I do sometimes. I play UU and BL, with teams respective to each. I know the OU metagame pretty well, through smogon, watching matches, and even playing it.

(Although this is a bogus scenario since it's widely accepted that some NFE's would be BL even if others aren't banned from UU play-) I wouldn't mind seeing a haunter on a team every once and a while.

Lets face it, if someone wants to make their UU team the same as their OU team, it can get a little old. But I think a lot of pokemon (such as pupitar and dragonair) aren't overpowered in any way for UU play, and in fact, with the ability to feasibly play different pokemon in UU, most players would use different pokemon anyways.

So this is why I think we should just take a bit more time and find the INDIVIDUAL NFE's that unbalance the UU tier, because some pokemon shouldn't be banned from UU on the grounds that "well, I see gliscor all the time, I don't want to play a different team and see his pre-evolution, even if he's not that powerful."

I frankly, just think that's silly.

Dragontamer has a good idea though. Duskull is MUCH different from Dusknoir, being able to levitate and having less physical attacking ability.

Deck Knight said:

Here is the almighty exhaustive list of NFEs tha would actually warrant discussion, mostly because they either were previously fully evolved (even if it was back in RBY) or they have the stats/movepool to work competently in UU:

RBY Origin:
Pikachu
Golbat
Kadabra
Magneton
Haunter
Cubone
Lickitung
Rhydon
Scyther
Electabuzz
Magmar
Tangela
Seadra
Chansey

GSC origin:
Togetic
Piloswine
Aipom
Yanma
Murkrow
Misdreavus
Sneasel
Gligar
Porygon2

RSE origin:
Nosepass
Trapinch
Dusclops
Clamperl

DP origin:
Cranidos

You can split hairs if you like, but basically this is a listing of pokemon with an item like Light Ball or Thick Club, Previously fully evolved pokemon, or pokemon that have the speed and/or movepool attack power and type to sweep.

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You didn't forgot about trapinch. <3

Cranidos is... Really strong. I don't think many things in UU have his attacking power, and he can be scarfed to demolish things, especially with mold breaker.

Pikachu- Already popular, yo.

Cubone- Uh, drugs? It plays exactly like Marowak, so it's not something that needs discussed. If people decide they want the "OULite" NFEs, Cubone is in. If not, it's not likely.

I just threw that out there because alot of people are or were arguing for Gligar, which, btw is an "OUlite NFE"

Damanzi said:

Why would Chansey unbalance UU and function any differently there than Blissey does in OU? There are plenty of STAB powerful fighting attacks among other things that would easily destroy it.

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Things in UU generally have lower HP. Hello, siesmic toss -_-

Oh, and I agree that Magmar and Electabuzz are OK. they're faster, and frailer, than their coutneparts

First of all, I 100% agree with Thunderpup. For the most part things should be looked at individually. That said, we can start by cutting Golbat, Togetic, Nosepass, and Aipom (maybe a few others) off of the list, because they aren't unbalancing NU, let alone UU.

Boa1891 said:

Cranidos is... Really strong. I don't think many things in UU have his attacking power, and he can be scarfed to demolish things, especially with mold breaker.

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Pinsir, which, while up for UU/BL discussion (I believe he's leaning towards BL) has the same attack stat, a good move pool, much higher speed, and better defense, and the same ability.

I think it's a pretty fine line, but as far as being an NFE, I don't think a lot of people actually run Rampardos in OU, so as far as OU-Lite goes for him... I don't know.

(So my point is, he shouldn't be up for discussion as a NFE in terms for banning him, but he should be considered based on his similarity to pinsir)

Wow, after continuing to read this, you guys msut all think that the pokemon that call UU their home SUCK!

Seriously. Pokemon like Kingler, Vileplume, Ninetales, Crawdaunt, etc are all UU, and thye can dole out some serious damage. Most NFEs would egt spanked.

Pinsir, which, while up for UU/BL discussion (I believe he's leaning towards BL) has the same attack stat, a good move pool, much higher speed, and better defense, and the same ability.

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Pinsir is not a NFE. Did you think he evolved into Heracross?

IMO, NFEs should be treated just the same as any other Pokemon in UU. A Pokemon like Chansey or Kadabra may be banned, but it would be because they're BL, not because they happen to evolve into Blissey or Alakazam. It's not as if there is a big population of NFEs just waiting to rush into UU and make it into OUlite; Chansey is the biggest offender, and with 250/5/105 defenses (and no, the 5 isn't significantly worse than Blissey's 10 - the vast majority of its defense will come from EVs anyway) and Blissey's entire movepool, Chansey is unquestionably too powerful for UU even if NFEs were let in. Heck, were it not for Blissey, it might even have a place in standard play, making it BL.

Oh, and I'd just like to point out one Pokemon everyone always forgets about when they're talking about NFEs which are significantly different from their FE counterpart: Vigoroth. Vigoroth boasts decent if not spectacular stats, an interesting movepool, and most notably an ability that isn't Truant, meaning that it plays completely differently from its evolution, Slaking.

We already have a UU/BL tier discussion thread, we can talk about the strength of pokes there.

I think the real heart of this thread should be--

* Do we care if we see "lite" versions of OU pokes running around?

If not, than we should go back to UU/BL discussion thread and tier 'em all based on strength.

If we do, than we don't bother with 'em at all.

Personally I'm fine either way-- my only peeve is the idea that some NFE's would get special consideration just because their FE's came later. That's ridulous. Let's use this thread to discuss this:

Whether or not we are going to tier NFE's, and if so, are we going to tier them all, or ONLY the ones who can do something better than their evolved forms?

ChouToshio said:

We already have a UU/BL tier discussion thread, we can talk about the strength of pokes there.

I think the real heart of this thread should be--

* Do we care if we see "lite" versions of OU pokes running around?

If not, than we should go back to UU/BL discussion thread and tier 'em all based on strength.

If we do, than we don't bother with 'em at all.

Personally I'm fine either way-- my only peeve is the idea that some NFE's would get special consideration just because their FE's came later. That's ridulous. Let's use this thread to discuss this:

Whether or not we are going to tier NFE's, and if so, are we going to tier them all, or ONLY the ones who can do something better than their evolved forms?

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Ah, but the strength of various NFEs has a direct impact on that argument. If the idea of "OU-lite" is, in fact, irrelevant (as the most prominent OUs have preevos that are either too strong or too weak for the UU metagame), this is an easy decision. Who would care if, say, Machoke was used often in UU if Machamp never showed up anywhere else?

ballgofar1004 said:

Pinsir is not a NFE. Did you think he evolved into Heracross?

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If you took the time to read my post, you too chou, you would see that I was talking to someone else who was entering the realm of UU/BL discussion.

MY POINT was that that we shouldn't even be discussing which pokemon are UU or BL, we're supposed HOW we're dealing with them. (I apologize for straying off-topic but I digressed and corrected myself at the end.)

SO chou is right, if we think NFE's should be taken in a case-by-case fashion, we should begin discussion for each one individually in the UU/BL thread. However, I don't know if everyone agrees on this system, so discussion should continue.

Whether or not we are going to tier NFE's, and if so, are we going to tier them all, or ONLY the ones who can do something better than their evolved forms?

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I do believe that they should all be rated and sorted. Gligar is a good example. You claim you don't want to give him any special treatment because his evolved form came out this generation and he was UU until then. Fair enough, that's a good idea.

But in order to be fair, you have to evaluate him fairly in this generation, because if we don't evaluate fairly and just ban him, then you're giving special treatment to every other pokemon for allowing discussion based on their ability but not allowing discussion for him.

That's why I think every NFE should be sorted. Just banning them is easy, but it's not fair to some pokemon. For example, I love haunter. I hate gengar. I think gengar is a stupid looking pokemon, but haunter is awesome, and I'm thinking about putting him on a team. (Theoretically) if I wanted to make a UU team and he wasn't overpowered (again, theoretically) then it wouldn't be fair to ban him.

Medi Guy said:

IMO, NFEs should be treated just the same as any other Pokemon in UU. A Pokemon like Chansey or Kadabra may be banned, but it would be because they're BL, not because they happen to evolve into Blissey or Alakazam. It's not as if there is a big population of NFEs just waiting to rush into UU and make it into OUlite; Chansey is the biggest offender, and with 250/5/105 defenses (and no, the 5 isn't significantly worse than Blissey's 10 - the vast majority of its defense will come from EVs anyway) and Blissey's entire movepool, Chansey is unquestionably too powerful for UU even if NFEs were let in. Heck, were it not for Blissey, it might even have a place in standard play, making it BL.

Oh, and I'd just like to point out one Pokemon everyone always forgets about when they're talking about NFEs which are significantly different from their FE counterpart: Vigoroth. Vigoroth boasts decent if not spectacular stats, an interesting movepool, and most notably an ability that isn't Truant, meaning that it plays completely differently from its evolution, Slaking.

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The reason I purposely didn't include Vigoroth is because its basically an inferior Zangoose, Primeape, or Kangaskhan depending on what you want it to do.

And Gligar isn't Gliscor-lite on anything except the rarer Polish Passer set. Gligar is used as a sweeper in UU where as Gliscor is a physical wall in OU.

Personally I've always found this OU-lite talk to be ridiculous. Most of the 600 Club's prevos are unremarkable in any way, and would play entirely differently from their OU counterparts. Rest assured with 60 SA Specs Shelgon won't be knocking on your door, although the CB variant will probably be alive and well, especially with Rock Head to null Double-Edge recoil. Metang doesn't have the raw power of Metagross. Pupitar just seems like a bad Golem to me.

The only ones I'd really be particular about are Snover and Hippopotas, those abilities are just too gamebreaking to let in, and totally centralize OU around dealing with those abilities.

Dragontamer said:

* If the NFE has a stat that is higher than its fully evolved form or a different ability, then it should be written in the tier list.

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I agree with this. This rule should be used without exception. If people don't want to play with NFE's then they can play "No NFE" games just like most already play with Sleep Clause, no OHKO moves, etc.

Note that even with NFE's theres no Snover or Hippopotas.