Honchkrow

November Blue

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[Overview]

<p>If the RU tier were a seedy underworld city, Honchkrow would be its kingpin. Its Hidden Ability, Moxie, has given Honchkrow the edge it needs to ascend the ranks and cement itself as the deadliest sweeper in the entire tier. Honchkrow's strength lies in a wicked combination of traits; a base 125 Attack stat, two STAB moves in Brave Bird and Sucker Punch, Moxie, SubRoost, and a few powerful coverage moves. Though Honchkrow is slow, it can neatly bypass this problem through adept use of Sucker Punch, Substitute, and Roost. Using this strategy, a skilled player can sweep an entire team with terrifying ease. That being said, low Speed is low Speed, so faster threats can get the jump on Honchkrow. Steel-types that resist Honchkrow's STAB moves can ruffle its feathers if it has not yet gained any Moxie boosts, but Honchkrow is such a deadly sweeper that this scarcely matters.</p>

[SET]
name: Moxie SubRoost
move 1: Brave bird
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Roost
move 4: Substitute / Pursuit
item: Life Orb
nature: Adamant
ability: Moxie
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Some Pokemon have that one set, the set that everyone talks about in hushed whispers, the set that gives children nightmares. For Honchkrow, Moxie SubRoost is that set. Honchkrow was once a mere mixed attacker with fairly powerful attacks, good coverage, and hit-or-miss priority. Moxie changed all of this. Honchkrow is now able to switch into a weakened or non-threatening foe, grab a boost or set up a Substitute, and start up a sweep at a moment's notice. Once Honchkrow nets that free turn, the opponent is forced into a no-win situation; behind a Substitute, Honchkrow can safely KO faster threats with Brave Bird or Sucker Punch, while Roosting when its health gets low. Opponents must beware when switching out of Honchkrow, as whatever switches in usually runs the risk of being 2HKOed. Your opponent must disarm Honchkrow quickly, otherwise it will just become progressively stronger and harder to stop.</p>

<p>Brave Bird is Honchkrow's primary move, as it has excellent neutral coverage and packs devastating power. Sucker Punch, however, is the key to Honchkrow's success, as the priority the move carries, plus the associated mindgames Honchkrow can play with the opponent, are what distinguish it from other slow, powerful attackers. Substitute and Roost keep Honchkrow healthy, allowing it to stay in play for extended durations. As useful as it is, Substitute can be replaced with Pursuit. This devious move is a surprising divergence from the usual, and allows Honchkrow to KO opponents that could otherwise elude it. Tagging a switching foe with a fatal hit might give Honchkrow an easier time setting up, or eliminate a threat or hindrance to another of your sweepers.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>252 Attack EVs, an Adamant nature, and Life Orb give Honchkrow as much power as possible, which is crucial for breaking through Flying-type resistors. These offensive additions are also used to ensure that the first strike carries enough power to grab a KO and start a sweep. 252 Speed EVs ensure that Honchkrow outpaces the competition, namely slow opponents that invest in Speed, such as Aggron and Gligar, faster foes that don't invest, such as Gallade, and opposing Honchkrow. Honchkrow is powerful enough to swap its Adamant nature for Jolly, but the extra Speed is often not needed, and Honchkrow's initial power will be noticeably lowered. Removing Roost is not recommended, as without it, Honchkrow has no way to heal itself without outside support, and will quickly succumb to Brave Bird recoil and residual damage. Steel-types resist both Brave Bird and Sucker Punch, and can wall Honchkrow fairly reliably if it does not yet have any Moxie boosts, so Magneton is a great teammate; it can trap opposing Steel-types with Magnet Pull and and KO with either Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Fire.</p>

[SET]
name: Wallbreaker
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Heatwave / Roost
item: Life Orb
nature: Adamant / Naughty
ability: Insomnia
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>The classic Honchkrow set returns, and is as effective as ever. Comprehensive coverage and great power make this set difficult to switch into, and hard to wall. Superpower and Heat Wave are illegal with Moxie, but this Honchkrow variant appreciates Insomnia much more. The ability to switch into the sleep-inducing moves of foes such as Lilligant, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth allows Honchkow to check them with a powerful Brave Bird or Heat Wave. These two moves also provide coverage on Steel-types, which cannot wall this set as easily as the Moxie SubRoost. As this Honchkrow variant is less common than Moxie SubRoost, and therefore unexpected, catching a check or counter with a super effective coverage move is quite easy, and extremely effective. For example, Aggron easily checks Moxie SubRoost Honchkrow, but cannot switch into Superpower. Steelix is incinerated by Heat Wave, and Tangrowth doesn't stand a chance.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Depending on the rest of your team, either Superpower or Heat Wave can be replaced by Roost. Recoil from both Brave Bird and Life Orb, in conjunction with residual damage from things such as Stealth Rock, can quickly drain Honchkrow's health, so Roost is an excellent way to extend Honchkrow's longevity. Like the Moxie SubRoost set, this Honchkrow variant can play mindgames with Sucker Punch, easily finding free turns to Roost in the process. Hidden Power Grass is another excellent choice, as it allows Honchkrow to score a powerful super effective hit on defensive Grass-weak Pokemon such as Omastar and Quagsire. If you opt to use an all-physical set, one lacking Heat Wave, a Naughty nature is not needed, and Adamant should be used.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: Night Slash / Pursuit
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Heatwave
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Naughty
ability: Insomnia
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>I know what you might be thinking. "A Honchkrow set without Sucker Punch? Blasphemy!" But consider this old adage; How do you make a slow, powerful Pokemon useful? Slap a Choice Scarf on it! Low Speed will always be Honchkrow's greatest obstacle, and this set remedies that. Swooping in at 361 Speed, Scarf Honchkrow outpaces everything below base 115 Speed, which it ties with. Fast foes that could normally threaten Honchkrow, such as Archeops, Scolipede, and Galvantula, are all outsped and KOed with the appropriate move. As Sucker Punch is not as important to this set, an alternate Dark-type STAB can be used. Night Slash is a solid, reliable choice that has excellent neutral coverage, plus a high Critical Hit ratio. Another great choice is Pursuit. Akin to Krookodile, Honchkrow can abuse the effects of a fast Pursuit to trap Psychic- or Ghost-types such as Haunter and Claydol, removing them in one fell swoop. Honchkrow can also use Pursuit to get rid of any annoying checks that guard against your sweepers, and support your other team members in their endeavors. It should be noted, however, that using Pursuit instead of Night Slash will render this set somewhat unwieldy; Brave Bird must be used cautiously due to the recoil, and Pursuit is too weak for regular use. This set will lack a reliable go-to STAB move for general attacking.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As this Honchkrow variant will be switching in and out frequently and cannot use Roost, Brave Bird is somewhat undesirable. The move's recoil damage will add up, and may be counterproductive. Drill Peck can be used instead; though the move is considerably weaker, it does not inflict recoil damage, which is a great boon to Honchkrow's longevity. Rapid Spin support really helps, and an offensive Spinner, such as Hitmonlee, works wonders. Though this set runs coverage for Steel-types, they can still force out a Honchkrow locked into Brave Bird or Night Slash; Rapid Spin support is crucial for this reason, and a Rapid Spinner that can clear out Steel-types is especially helpful.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Flavor-wise, Nasty Plot is perfect for Honchkrow; mob bosses plot nasty stuff all the time! Though this analogy doesn't quite match up competitively, Nasty Plot is still a great choice on Honchkrow. A set consisting of Nasty Plot and any three of Air Cutter, Heat Wave, Hidden Power Grass, and Sucker Punch with the Super Luck ability and a Modest nature (or Rash if Sucker Punch is chosen) gives Honchkrow dangerous sweeping power from its oft-neglected special side. The use of Super Luck on the set is crucial; Air Cutter is a fairly weak move with a high Critical Hit ratio, which the ability amplifies even further, and gives Honchkrow's main STAB move a much-needed boost. Dark Pulse can also be used, but it overlaps unfavorably with Sucker Punch. Tailwind is another interesting choice. With the wind beneath its wings, a speedy Honchkrow can sweep the opponent with a lesser reliance on Sucker Punch, and even if KOed, it can give another Pokemon on your team a chance to sweep with the Tailwind boost. Other options include Perish Song and Psycho Shift; the use of these moves is hard to justify on Honchkrow's already cramped sets, but they have their uses, and the surprise factor of an unorthodox move is a deadly weapon in the right hands.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Whether it's a battered victim or a rival mobster, everyone wants to take Honchkrow down. A mob boss naturally has enemies, and they all have ideas of how to assassinate the crow. Steel-types, especially Steelix, Klinklang, and Aggron, are tough enough to take Honchkrow's Brave Birds and Sucker Punches, and can retaliate with their own attacks. The Moxie SubRoost set must rely on brute force to blast past these defensive titans, but can only manage a 2HKO at best. In return, Klinklang can shift its gears into overdrive and counter-sweep, tearing down Honchkrow's Substitute with Gear Grind and bashing it out of the sky. Aggron 4x resists Brave Bird and OHKOes with Head Smash, while Steelix shrugs off Honchkrow's onslaught and either sets up Stealth Rock or Roars Honchkrow away. Choice Scarf users that resist Sucker Punch are also a good bet. Primeape, for example, easily outspeeds and KOes Honchkrow with Stone Edge. Any faster Pokemon that has Substitute can quickly get the upper hand, as Honchkrow will struggle to harm them. Entei is another threat to watch out for. It easily outspeeds and KOes with Flare Blitz, and can bypass Sucker Punch with its +2 priority ExtremeSpeed. Minccino can annoy Moxie Subroost variants, as its multi-hit moves break through Substitute, and Rock Blast can potentially KO with a high number of hits. Stunfisk is bulky enough to shake off resisted Brave Birds, and can retaliate with either Discharge or Scald. These moves can paralyze and burn Honchkrow, respectively, which hinders it severely.</p>
 
I'd say that Pursuit deserves a slash next to Substitute on the first set, it's recently become quite a commonplace option on Honch. Moreover, the Scarfkrow set's item is Life Orb .-. I'd probably slash Pursuit in there too, probably before Roost, because, ya know, Roost on a Choice set is pretty gross
 

Molk

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I'd say that Pursuit deserves a slash next to Substitute on the first set, it's recently become quite a commonplace option on Honch. Moreover, the Scarfkrow set's item is Life Orb .-. I'd probably slash Pursuit in there too, probably before Roost, because, ya know, Roost on a Choice set is pretty gross
no, bad. honchkrow needs the protection from status substitute offers, honchkrow makes a terrible pursuit user in my opinion
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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I wuold actually suggest slashing Pursuit over Roost on the first set. Its what I use and is an easy way to get +1 wile also clearing the way for a Medicham sweep.
 
Also, while the title of the third set implies scarf, the item is written as strictly life orb. Thought I should point out the discontinuity
 

November Blue

A universe where hot chips don't exist :(
is a Contributor Alumnus
Well, I wrote this just before I went to bed. I'll fix the scarf set.

Also, no. The moves on the Moxie SubRoost set are non-negotiable IMO. Substitute allows Honch to play mindgames with Sucker Punch, and does all the usual sub stuff, and Roost is actually quite important. Brave Bird + Life Orb recoil really adds up, and it would KO itself way too quickly.

I forgot to put Pursuit on the Scarf set. I'm not actually sure what the standard Scarf set runs, so I just slashed everything and added Roost. Fixed.
 
On the third set, you should slash Drill Peck after Brave Bird. I see no reason why anyone would run both Drill Peck and Brave Bird.
Roost (or maybe Drill Peck) deserves a slash on the wall breaker set. As you said Life Orb recoil + Brave Bird recoil does a lot of damage.
 
^ No to Drill Peck on the Wallbreaker set, but yes to Roost. Drill Peck just lacks the sheer power of Brave Bird, and Honchkrow is better off with that kind of power.

Roost, however, is an excellent move on the Wallbreaker set. Honchkrow forces a lot of switches and thus has ample opportunity to heal with Roost. Also, why is HP Grass on there? The only thing it really hits is Quagsire, who is 2HKO'ed by Brave Bird anyway. I'd drop it for Roost.

Finally, drop Lonely as an option on the Wallbreaker set. Honchkrow already takes enough damage from priority moves, no need to make that any worse.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Well, I wrote this just before I went to bed. I'll fix the scarf set.

Also, no. The moves on the Moxie SubRoost set are non-negotiable IMO. Substitute allows Honch to play mindgames with Sucker Punch, and does all the usual sub stuff, and Roost is actually quite important. Brave Bird + Life Orb recoil really adds up, and it would KO itself way too quickly.

I forgot to put Pursuit on the Scarf set. I'm not actually sure what the standard Scarf set runs, so I just slashed everything and added Roost. Fixed.
I still insist you put Pursuit at least as an AC mention on the SubRoost set. I ranked 5th on the server using Pursuit over Roost and can attest to its awesomeness. Pursuit allows it to be more of a team supporter, easily removing pokemon that would stop a Medicham sweep for example.
 

marilli

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Also, why is HP Grass on there? The only thing it really hits is Quagsire, who is 2HKO'ed by Brave Bird anyway. I'd drop it for Roost.
I know that HP Grass with 4 EV investment is rather piss weak here, but I think that HP Grass should be slashed, or at the very least be AC'd or OO'd. If running HP Grass along with Heat Wave, the EVs probably need to be tweaked a little bit to power them up a bit.

If you look at counters for Moxie Honchkrow that doesn't get OHKOed by Superpower, you get stuff like Rhydon, defensive Omastar / bulky Water / Rocks like Carracosta & Utility Kabutops, etc, which all get rocked by HP Grass. It also hits stuff like Utility Sandslash & other physically bulky Ground-types with sucky special defense. Also, does Honchkrow 2HKO Quagsire even with the Curse / Stockpile's +1 defensive boost? if not, then that's another reason to put HP Grass on it. These are all rather situational, but HP Grass isn't so bad to the point that it should be completely overlooked. Other analyses have joke moves & generally outclassed things in OO, so it deserves at least an OO mention. Hell, HP Grass in the Moxie set with a Naughty nature in order to actually keep on sweeping through rockmons actually sounds pretty cool, especially given that Superpower is illegal with Moxie so people send in their rockmons with little worry.
 

November Blue

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I still insist you put Pursuit at least as an AC mention on the SubRoost set. I ranked 5th on the server using Pursuit over Roost and can attest to its awesomeness. Pursuit allows it to be more of a team supporter, easily removing pokemon that would stop a Medicham sweep for example.
This is just me, but I prefer to sweep with Moxie Honchkrow than use it to facilitate others. If I wanted to do that, I'd use the wallbreaker.
 
Scarf Primeape and Medicham, and other faster stuff that resists Sucker Punch can check it.
Sucker Punch deals 87.8%-103.8% to 4/0 Medicham, which after SR is a pretty good chance of a KO, and after Spikes is a guaranteed KO. I would suggest noting Hitmonlee as a check; while it can't take a hit switching in, it survives a Sucker Punch even at 75% health and KOs with Hi Jump Kick.

361 Speed, ties with Floatzel and Swellow, outspeeds everything else bar Accelgor.
Floatzel: 115 base Speed
Swellow: 125 base Speed

...huh?
 
I was reading the 3rd set because mainly i've used the sub set but I needed a faster approach so looking at the 3rd set, HP fire isn't bad seeing as
moxie =/= heat wave. So I may try that set out and see how it goes, not sure how useful HP fire will be as Brave Bird wrecks unresisted stuff anyways but it's the best replacement for non-accessible Heat Wave.

Also noting the base speed of Swellow, it's higher than 361, its base speed is 125 not 115 and Honchkrow won't be speed tieing with Base 115's holding a Choice Scarf if it's using HP fire too.
 

November Blue

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Also noting the base speed of Swellow, it's higher than 361, its base speed is 125 not 115 and Honchkrow won't be speed tieing with Base 115's holding a Choice Scarf if it's using HP fire too.
Yeah, don't ask me what I was thinking there (I wasn't) Fixed.
 

Honko

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Sets look good, it would be nice to see the Other Options and Checks & Counters sections though.
 

Honko

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Mention that Steelix (and support Aggron, but that's pretty rare) can come in without fear once it sees Substitute, set up SR, and Roar you out.

Also, Encore Kadabra! It comes in on Sub/Roost/Suckapunch and Encores it for instant win! (jk don't mention this, although now I kind of want to try it...)

QC APPROVED 1/3
 
I will wait until nov 14th to see what happens to Krow (because it looks like it will be banned) so that we don't work on this to see it moved to L&O in a few days.
 
Superpower would offer better coverage on the scarf set imo over HP fire, hitting aggron as well as other steels/rocks
 
Definitely mention that you can't run superpower or heatwave with moxie, pie cream already noted this, but you should say it in AC or Set Comments.
(it seems like you know this already)
And why no super luck? Is it illegal with sucker punch or something? I think I remember hearing that........

Maybe mention that its defenses don't exactly compliment it's HP. I am also starting to question HP fire on the scarf set. Brave bird will neutrally hit Ferroseed, and super effectively hit Tangrowth. HP fire only provides a slight power boost against Ferroseed, I don't think it's worth it.

Maybe..... Uh, tbh I don't know what to replace it with... >__<

I remember looking at this dude's base stats, and I saw that its speed had become a 71 as opposed to murkrow's 91, and I was like

"What the fuck......!"
 

Molk

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Definitely mention that you can't run superpower or heatwave with moxie, pie cream already noted this, but you should say it in AC or Set Comments.
(it seems like you know this already)
And why no super luck? Is it illegal with sucker punch or something? I think I remember hearing that........

Maybe mention that its defenses don't exactly compliment it's HP. I am also starting to question HP fire on the scarf set. Brave bird will neutrally hit Ferroseed, and super effectively hit Tangrowth. HP fire only provides a slight power boost against Ferroseed, I don't think it's worth it.

Maybe..... Uh, tbh I don't know what to replace it with... >__<

I remember looking at this dude's base stats, and I saw that its speed had become a 71 as opposed to murkrow's 91, and I was like

"What the fuck......!"
1) insomnia>super luck as it can check lilligant

2) no its legal

3) tangrowth can take a Brave bird, ferroseed can take a brave bird, either way it kills itself, and ferroseed isnt the only thing it is for

4) leave hp fire

5) maybe mention drill peck in OO i dont think it deserves a place on the scarf set

6) slash naive as a nature and remove adamant, if your always going to be using hp fire you need it to be as strong as possible.
 

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