Research Week - Staryu, Porygon, Grumpig

[tennisace]

Hi there.

I'm going to be stealing this from Little Cup, since its a good way to try out new things in the metagame (and NU is so diverse that so many good mons are as of yet undiscovered)!

Research Week attempts to investigate Pokemon who have potential, be it in stats, movepool, or supporting their team, to serve as an innovative choice in today's metagame. These are Pokemon that, for the most part, remain relatively untested. I've selected 3 Pokemon I feel, with help from everyone else, could see use as they fill a particular niche. Perhaps the title is a bit of a misnomer; in fact, this installment (and perhaps future ones) of Research Week will continue as long as the discussion does, and that's where you all come in.

If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning!

Some rules:
-Be open-minded. Just because something looks shitty doesn't mean it is (or if it is, back up your reasoning).
-Test it! Get crazy. This is the one time where I'm going to encourage being gimmicky (to a certain point).
-Don't just think of the Pokemon itself, think of what it does well for a team and what the team needs to support it.
-Don't suggest Pokemon in this thread, PM me or VM me or find me and maybe I'll include it in the next one!

The Pokemon to research:


Here's a little bit about each mon and what they do well:

Staryu

---

Staryu may look lackluster at first glance, but it has some things going for it. It has 85 base speed, which outspeeds a significant portion of the metagame. In addition, it has great mono-Water typing and high base power moves with good coverage in Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt. It also gets the underrepresented Rapid Spin, which can really help a team out by getting rid of hazards! Finally, it gets Recover to heal itself, Natural Cure to rid itself of status, and Thunder Wave to slow down opposing sweepers.

Porygon

---

Porygon may look kind of weak at first glance, but it has a few good things going for it. The current metagame is filled with Physical threats and Physical Walls, making it pretty easy for Porygon to grab a Download boost. This, coupled with Tri-Attack, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam, make Porygon a formidable threat, able to 2hko many of the aformentioned Physical walls and dish out some heavy damage. In addition, it gets Recover, which allows it to heal off Life Orb damage, Agility to boost its speed, and Trick Room to use on a Trick Room team.

Grumpig

---

Grumpig may look worse than the other numerous fat Psychic-types in the tier, but it gets many cool options that Mesprit and co. don't. First, Grumpig gets Thick Fat as an ability, giving it a psudo-resistance to Fire and Ice-type moves. In addition, it obtains Whirlwind, allowing it to phaze out threatening sweepers. It obtains the standard Dual-screens, Magic Coat, Mirror Coat, Trick and Trick Room that a lot of Psychic-types do. However, it has 80 base speed, which is quite good for NU, and Taunt, allowing it to shut down other supporters. It also gets Thunder Wave to cripple opposing sweepers. Finally, it has a decent offensive movepool, consisting of Psychic, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Grass Knot, and Calm Mind to boost its excellent Special Defense and good Special Attack.

[Zebraiken*]

I'm not incredibly interested in Grumpig, but Porygon and Staryu are both things I think I'll get around to testing later. The offensive P2 set that reachzero created seems wonderful down here even with less SpA, partly because it gets great coverage and partly because it's one of the few offensive Pokemon with reliable recovery. We already talked a little bit about it but it seems excellent with paralysis support (though... what isn't?), especially considering that a large part of the metagame rn is focused on physical walling.

Staryu is also something I'll mess with but I'm not expecting much out of it, especially when its only semi-viable stats are base 70 SpA and 85 Spe. Rapid Spin is useful and all but I'm not really sure if I want to use it on something with 30/55/55 defenses...

[Oglemi*]

I had some success with Staryu in early RU when MegaMoth was still running around. With a physically defensive spread and Eviolite, Staryu is actually surprising bulky. Though, the one thing that actually severely hinders it is its lack of offense. Base 85 Speed though is awesome, letting it tie with Misdreavus and outspeed a large portion of the defensive mons in the tier.

A simple set like:

[SET]
name: Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Surf
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Recover / Ice Beam
item: Eviolite
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

I think would work well. Staryu also holds one major thing over other defensive Pokemon too, Natural Cure. A basic immunity to status is awesome, letting it absorb sleep, poison, and paralysis like a boss.

[Omicron]

I keep forgetting that Staryu lacks a secondary Psychic typing... Threw me off a fair few times :o

I also had no idea that Grumpig had base 80 Speed xD

I personally think that Dual Screens is the way to go for Grumpig, I can't really see Calm Mind working too well in this relatively fast-paced metagame. Thick Fat is an amazing ability for Grumpig, giving it two additional resistances and allowing it to check dangerous NU threats such as Magmortar quite well.

[Full2Half]

ive used all 3 to pretty good success in nu a while back. I have to say staryu was a bit underwhelming, but grumpig and porygon did plenty. I very much enjoyed spreading Parafusion with grumpig as a lead with its pretty good speed and high spc def. and i would always rely on my bulky eviolite porygon to toxic/recover my opponants to oblivion, and his 65/70/75 defences are very good with eviolite in nu.

[Steamroll]

Let's see if I can make a better laddering team using "Gimmicks" than actually decent mons. I've used Staryu before and half the time I just end up Hydro Pumping everything that doesn't resist it until it dies.

[Brammi]

Grumpig is really good. Do note though that it can't use both whirlwind and heal bell at the same time.

Due to the really hard time spinners have at the moment Grumpig makes a great phazer. The other thing is that it does really well against Cryogonal which is important for a phazer at the moment. The fast taunt is amazing at the moment as well.

[Sabinfrost]

I've used Grumpig but I find most of his bulkier sets are over-shadowed by Hypno, who also has Taunt and CM, Screens but can Wish for recovery on top of having access to Seismic Toss and Nasty Plot. Thick Fat is certainly a great ability though, especially on a special wall, there are tons of Magmortar running around and Heal Bell is becoming essential with the amount of Will - O - Wisp in the metagame waiting to cripple physical sweepers.

[MikeDecIsHere]

Grumpig is actually a pretty interesting mon. Thick Fat and its bulk is pretty cool, but aside from Dual Screening, I've found Miltank to generally be better. Nice for a Sawk Switchin though.

Porygon is freaking boss. Such an underrated mon hands down. Underrated as a Special Attacker. Surprising how strong a STAB Tri Attack is.

[Smith]

The only one of these that I've used is Grumpig. He was really useful as a good Magmortar and Mesprit counter, but unfortunately he can't use both Heal Bell and Whirlwind :(. He's also surprisingly fast, but I find that oftentimes Miltank is better thanks to reliable recovery.
Porygon doesn't look too interesting tbh, but I really like Staryu since Rapid Spin is zo rare, I'll have to give him a shot.

[Lou Cypher]

I figure that unless you use Grumpig for Whirlwind or really need the Fire/Ice resistance, he's kind of outclassed by Gardevoir who does everything he does on the attacking front better and has even more support options then everyone's favorite pig. Not saying Grumpig is bad by any stretch of the imagination, but Gardevoir is just really comparable, even down to sitting at the same speed tier. Their bulk is rather comparable too, Grumpig can edge out Gardevoir on both fronts but only barely due to better HP and very close defenses.

[Gerard]

Porygon is amazing, it's surprisingly bulky thanks to eviolite, and with magic coat it's a ver nice lead that can reflect taunt or hazzards, and give you a free turn to put TR, with recover and tri attack, walled by ghosts is not a huge issue, when not a lot of them are used as leads, and you can even bring him later to TR on something else

[elchupo]

Excellent idea. I love the idea of giving underrated or underutilised 'mons a chance to shine. NU is so big as well that so many things are bound to be viable that just haven't been discovered yet.

As for the choices:

Grumpig is a very interesting Pokemon, and I've always been curious to see what made it so potent in the Adv gen when it was UU. However, it faces MAJOR competition for the role of bulky Psychic from the likes of Musharna, Hypno, Gardevoir, and to a lesser extent Beeheyem and Duosion, as well as Thick fat users like Miltank. Like others have said, Whirlwind is the only thing it has to distinguish itself from the others so it would need to use it.

Staryu just seems meh. Its defenses are likely too poor to gain any real benefit from Eviolite and its HP is horrific. It also has somewhat terrible attacking stats (although not unusable SpA). Overall just a very poor choice for a rapid spinner imo.

I'm most excited about Porygon. How it has managed to slip under the radar until now baffles me, especially with all the hype around his big brother and Eviolite. It's SpA is excellent, and with Eviolite his defenses are going to be great as well. Factor that in with instant recover and a good movepool and you have a great situational counter. Looking forward to seeing some of the sets people come up with for this one.

[tennisace]

Here's the thing with Porygon: its SpA isn't "excellent" at all. 85 is decidedly mediocre; even with the +1 Download boost it fails to 2hko a lot of major threats unless you run Life Orb. However if you run Life Orb then Porygon is powerful but really slow and not very bulky at all. With Eviolite its still not as bulky as you think it is and is even weaker. I'd post calcs but I'm going to bed soon and I'm just posting my thoughts quick.

[The Reptile]

imo, the only thing that Porygon could probably do is Trick Room sweep with LO/Choice Specs (95 SAtk isn't the most impressive thing in the world), but he's probably completely outclassed by Exeggutor in that regard.

Would be much better if he got Adaptability like his big brother imo. :(

[breh]

just a note, but evio Porygon is 100% outclassed by licky if it runs download and gets an attack boost. LO kind of sucks.

I kind of want to test out staryu but it's so godawfully frail.

I'm not sure if Grumpig fits on my teams, but it has definite potential. In this meta, it's the closest existing thing to a magmortar counter.

[blarajan]

Porygon blows. Staryu has zero offensive presence and it's too frail to provide continually good support.

Grumpig is a sexy beast though.

[Vitalise]

I've actually had a really effective sweep with Grumpig.


name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Sub
move 3: Psychic
move 4: Signal Beam
item: Leftovers
ability: Thick Fat
nature: timid
evs: 252 HP / 20 Sp.Def / 236 SpD

[elchupo]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

Here's the thing with Porygon: its SpA isn't "excellent" at all. 85 is decidedly mediocre; even with the +1 Download boost it fails to 2hko a lot of major threats unless you run Life Orb. However if you run Life Orb then Porygon is powerful but really slow and not very bulky at all. With Eviolite its still not as bulky as you think it is and is even weaker. I'd post calcs but I'm going to bed soon and I'm just posting my thoughts quick.

Just for clarification, base 85 SpA might not seem stellar but for a wall/ defensive pokemon, it is very good, especially in the lower tiers like NU where things hit slightly less hard than the likes of OU or NU.

For an offensive Pokemon, yes, it is poor. I don't see why anyone would consider using Porygon in an offensive role, since it has no potent or reliable way to boost its SpA, and using an offensive spread with Eviolite (using any other item with it is utterly pointless) is just silly, since it is outclassed by every other decent special attacker in the tier. I wouldn't even consider using LO since LO + already slow, frail Pokemon + Mediocre SpA (again, for an offensive pokemon) = what the hell is the point?

I don't really understand why in the OP Porygon's offensive prowess is extolled and then in the next instance ripped apart.

And just for comparison, Porygon with Eviolite has similar bulk to Lickilicky when both are invested.

252 Atk Swellow +1 Facade vs 252HP/ 252+Def Lickilicky- 49.5% - 58.3%
252 Atk Swellow +1 Facade vs 252HP/ 252+Def Porygon- 50.6% - 60.2%

Granted the calcs show neither lickilicky's or Porygon's defensive capabilities in a great light against Swellow, but the fact that it can stand with one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier is hardly what I would consider "weak".

Basically, if you're using Porygon offensively, you're doing it wrong. I think it would be much better to discuss the reasons WHY you should use it over something like Lickilicky as opposed to trying to find a way to make it work offensively.

For example:
Instant recovery is something not many walls in the tier have, meaning it can free up a moveslot instead of running Wish+Protect.
Good SpA means that it doesn't have to just sit there or run Toxic while the opponent sets up.
Good utility moves like Twave and Trick.
Can set up Sunny Day, Rain Dance, Trick Room and Gravity.
Unique abilities in Trace and Download.

[Sabinfrost]

Originally Posted by Fat Vitalise

I've actually had a really effective sweep with Grumpig.


name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Sub
move 3: Psychic
move 4: Signal Beam
item: Leftovers
ability: Thick Fat
nature: timid
evs: 252 HP / 20 Sp.Def / 236 SpD

I can't see a single reason why you'd run that set on a Grumpig instead of Mespirit...

[Lady Shinki]

Originally Posted by Fat Sabinfrost

I can't see a single reason why you'd run that set on a Grumpig instead of Mespirit...

1: Signal Beam gets good coverage alongside Psychic, and Mesprit doesn't learn it. It can defeat other CM Psychics AND hurt the omnipresent absol while getting a stronger hit than a neutral Hidden Power on Skuntank.
2: Thick Fat lets it switch in on Magmortar and Jynx since even LO Fire Blast won't break its sub at +1 and +2 Ice Beam doesn't 2hko, and Magmortar and Jynx are two of the most powerful (and underrated, in Jynx's case) threats of the tier.

It has lower special attack, so since this is NU I think you could get away with moving the Speed EVs to SpAtk, which lets you 2hko Mesprit and 1hko Jynx at +1 after SR. 24 Speed lets it beat speed creep and beat out base 50s.

Modified set:
Grumpig @ Leftovers
252 HP/232 SpAtk/24 Spe
Modest / Thick Fat

Substitute
Calm Mind
Psychic
Signal Beam

[Sabinfrost]

Originally Posted by Fat Kenshiro

1: Signal Beam gets good coverage alongside Psychic, and Mesprit doesn't learn it.

Signal beam has 5 more base power and a small confusion chance over HP Bug. This is easily covered by the fact Mespirit has 15 higher base SpA.

[Krasnopesky]

Staryu was pretty bad in my opinion; wasn't fast enough for a revenge killer, wasn't powerful enough for a sweeper, wasn't bulky enough for anything else. It's one niche in being a quick spinner is even taken by crygonal, so no real point in running it imo.

Porygon on the other hand has a fair bit more potential, being a bulky normal type with decent special attack, reliable recover and a few good supporting moves. However relying on an eviolite for bulk is not a personal favourite of mine. Makes you even more susceptable to trick/status as the leftovers recovery really adds up over time.

Thick Fat Grumpig was the standout for me of the three. Despite a lack of reliable recovery it can take on many physical and special threats and work as an excellent defensive pivot for balanced/offensive teams. Support moves like dual screens, thunder wave, heal bell and trick along with decent special attack make it rather useful as you don't necessarily have to lose momentum by switching it in.

[Vitalise]

Originally Posted by Fat Kenshiro

1: Signal Beam gets good coverage alongside Psychic, and Mesprit doesn't learn it. It can defeat other CM Psychics AND hurt the omnipresent absol while getting a stronger hit than a neutral Hidden Power on Skuntank.
2: Thick Fat lets it switch in on Magmortar and Jynx since even LO Fire Blast won't break its sub at +1 and +2 Ice Beam doesn't 2hko, and Magmortar and Jynx are two of the most powerful (and underrated, in Jynx's case) threats of the tier.

It has lower special attack, so since this is NU I think you could get away with moving the Speed EVs to SpAtk, which lets you 2hko Mesprit and 1hko Jynx at +1 after SR. 24 Speed lets it beat speed creep and beat out base 50s.

Modified set:
Grumpig @ Leftovers
252 HP/232 SpAtk/24 Spe
Modest / Thick Fat

Substitute
Calm Mind
Psychic
Signal Beam

And that i why i have made this set, been using it since 4th gen NU and just modfied it for gen 5,

[Brammi]

Originally Posted by Fat Krasnopesky

Staryu was pretty bad in my opinion; wasn't fast enough for a revenge killer, wasn't powerful enough for a sweeper, wasn't bulky enough for anything else. It's one niche in being a quick spinner is even taken by crygonal, so no real point in running it imo.

Porygon on the other hand has a fair bit more potential, being a bulky normal type with decent special attack, reliable recover and a few good supporting moves. However relying on an eviolite for bulk is not a personal favourite of mine. Makes you even more susceptable to trick/status as the leftovers recovery really adds up over time.

Thick Fat Grumpig was the standout for me of the three. Despite a lack of reliable recovery it can take on many physical and special threats and work as an excellent defensive pivot for balanced/offensive teams. Support moves like dual screens, thunder wave, heal bell and trick along with decent special attack make it rather useful as you don't necessarily have to lose momentum by switching it in.

Staryu's niche is not supposed to be any of those things except a fast spinner. It sets itself apart from Cryo through the fact that SR is more common than spikes to which staryu is neutral. Also does better against stall as it doesn't care about being statused which cryo hates.

Staryu also gets an arguably better stab and can actually beat the pokes that are using the ones setting up rocks unlike cryo who has to run in fear.

Porygon should probably be running Life Orb as it needs the extra power and should only ever be sweeping with paralysis support. You shouldn't really be running a bulky set as bulky charge beam is done better by other pokes and trace isn't very good in NU.