Shaymin (Update)

JockeMS

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Shaymin

[Overview]

<p>It's safe to say that Shaymin is a mixed bag of good and bad. Good, well-rounded stats, all lying at a solid base 100, give Shaymin good Speed, bulk, and respectable power. One should not forget about the power behind Shaymin's signature move, Seed Flare, and its great side effect. However, while it has these good attributes, Shaymin faces stiff competition for the Grass-type spot on a team from one of the top tier Pokemon in UU: Roserade. Roserade outclasses Shaymin at everything that is named support, having access to key moves such as Sleep Powder, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes, a much higher Special Attack stat, and a powerful STAB Sludge Bomb to rely on. Shaymin is also threatened by the many Fire-types in the tier, such as Victini, Darmanitan, Houndoom, and Arcanine; powerful Flying- and Bug-type Pokemon, such as Zapdos, Togekiss, Heracross, and Venomoth, also give it all sorts of trouble. However, with its greater Speed and overall bulk, and better offensive movepool, including moves such as Earth Power and Air Slash, Shaymin can still trump Roserade offensively and hit the many Pokemon that threatens it hard, even with a resited Seed Flare.</p>

[SET]
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Air Slash / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Rest / Synthesis
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This is what Shaymin does best. With Seed Flare, Shaymin can put offensive pressure on the opponent, even hitting Pokemon that resist the move hard; one should not forget about the 40% chance of lowering the opponent's Special Defense by two stages. Earth Power lets Shaymin deal heavy damage to Steel- and Fire-types, such as Registeel and Victini, switching in on a predicted Seed Flare to force Shaymin out. Air Slash is Shaymin's best bet against opposing Grass- and Bug-types, more notably Roserade and Heracross. However, Hidden Power Fire is still a safe bet against opposing Grass- and Bug-types, also hitting Bronzong and Escavalier for super effective damage. Rest and Synthesis are great options for recovery. Rest does put Shaymin to sleep, but cures status and fully restores Shaymin's health; the sleep status is also cured immediately when Shaymin switches out, thanks to Natural Cure. Synthesis, however, still works great with Shaymin's bulk and doesn't force Shaymin to switch out. The occasional sandstorm will reduce its effectiveness, but Synthesis is still a good choice if you don't worry too much about sand.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Hidden Power Ice lets Shaymin hit Flying-types, such as Zapdos, Crobat, and Togekiss, for super effective damage; it can effectively 2HKO Zapdos and hit oppsoing Grass-types hard. Psychic is also a good choice, as it will hit Crobat, Roserade, and Heracross hard, while retaining good coverage with Shaymin's other moves. Though it might not sound like a good choice on a set like this, Leech Seed is still a viable option, as it will restore Shaymin's and its teammates' health, almost nullifying the Life Orb recoil and easily forcing switches. Choice Specs is a decent option over Life Orb, trading the freedom to switch between moves for more power. However, what makes Choice Specs inferior to Life Orb is that it doesn't work well on a Grass-type of Shaymin's stature; it is a better option for Grass-type Pokemon such as Sceptile. When it comes to the choice of nature, Timid is preferred, as it allows Shaymin to at least Speed tie with positive natured base 100 Speed Pokemon, such as Victini and Zapdos; however, keep in mind that Hidden Power Fire will lower Shaymin's Speed IVs by one point, making it lose the Speed tie with the aforementioned Pokemon. This makes an EV spread of 32 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe a viable option when using Hidden Power Fire; this gives Shaymin a little extra bulk and maintains its ability to outspeed the likes of Sigilyph and Arcanine, while preventing Porygon-Z from getting a Special Attack boost from Download.</p>

<p>Entry hazard support is really helpful for Shaymin, as Spikes and Stealth Rock can help it break down its most common switch-ins, such as Zapdos. Deoxys-D makes a great teammate as it is able to set up both Stealth Rock and Spikes; however, keep in mind that they share a weakness to Bug-type moves, as well as Houndoom and Chandelure. This makes Nidoqueen and Froslass good candidates as well, as the former can set up Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes, while the latter can set up Spikes and also block Rapid Spin. If you're not concerned about using two Grass-types on the same team, Roserade makes an excellent choice as well, being able to set up both Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Pokemon such as Gligar and Claydol can also effectively set up Stealth Rock. Shaymin is weak to Fire-, Flying-, Ice-, and Bug-type moves, so teammates that can take these moves with ease are a must. With its great special bulk and Steel typing, Empoleon has no trouble taking Bug-, Ice-, Flying-, and even Fire-type moves from Pokemon such as Yanmega, Froslass, Togekiss, and Houndoom, while it can utilize Roar to force them out. Snorlax is another great Pokemon for taking on Fire- and Ice-type Pokemon thanks to Thick Fat, as well as special attackers in general. Snorlax, together with Porygon2, is the biggest counter to Chandelure, as it resists Chandelure's Fire-type STAB and is immune to its Ghost-type ones. Slowbro, thanks to its great physical bulk, has no trouble taking on the likes of Victini, Darmanitan, and Arcanine. The same applies to Flash Fire users, such as Arcanine and Chandelure, who are able to switch in on the aforementioned Pokemon's Fire-type moves. Chandelure can also deal with Heracross with relative ease, while Bronzong is the absolute best answer to Weavile.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>There are few viable options that have not been covered yet. The infamous combination of Substitute + Leech Seed is a possibility, but it can be, more often than not, underwhelming due to the lack of Pokemon Shaymin can effectively take advantage of, mainly Chansey. However, Shaymin is able to create 101 HP Substitutes, which counts for something. Giga Drain is a viable option for a STAB move that restores Shaymin's health when used. However, it can be a rather unreliable option over Rest and Synthesis, while using over Seed Flare makes Shaymin incredibly weak overall. Shaymin has a few interesting support moves as well, and can actually make use of them thanks to its bulk. These moves include GrassWhistle, Toxic, and Sweet Kiss for inflicting various status ailments on the opponent, and Aromatherapy and Healing Wish for a more cleric support-oriented approach. Growth is also an option, but with so many threats to Shaymin in the tier, it can be hard for to set up. Although gimmicky, a Swords Dance set with an EV spread of 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD, a Careful nature, and Seed Bomb can be used to make an effective counter to Calm Mind users, most notably Raikou, for defensive teams. Shaymin also has Zen Headbutt to hit Roserade, Heracross, and Crobat for super effective damage, but that is the extent of its physical movepool, besides Return. Choice Scarf can be used, allowing Shaymin to effectively revenge kill opponents expecting to outspeed it, but it is incredibly weak without either Choice Specs or Life Orb, even with its powerful Seed Flare, making a Choice Scarf set a poor choice.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Shaymin might be bulky and powerful, but there are several ways to take it on. The first thing that comes to mind is to hit Shaymin with one of the many moves it is weak to. Fire-types are a great threat to Shaymin. Victini, at the very least, ties with Shaymin in terms of Speed and can easily OHKO it with a super effective V-create. Arcanine, Houndoom, and Darmanitan can only outspeed Modest Shaymin without Choice Scarf, and Chandelure is even slower, but with the right prediction and tools, they can effectively take Shaymin down. Houndoom, Arcanine, and Chandelure can even take advantage of a predicted Hidden Power Fire. Another type of Pokemon that can easily dispatch of Shaymin are Bug-types. Heracross is only 3HKOed by Seed Flare at best, with Escavalier, Venomoth, and Yanmega taking even less damage; all four can easily KO Shaymin with their STAB moves. However, they need to be careful of getting hit by Air Slash and Hidden Power Fire. Weavile and Froslass outspeed Shaymin, and can effectively take it down by various means. Weavile hits extremely hard with its Ice-type STAB moves, while Froslass can aim to KO Shaymin with either Ice Beam or Destiny Bond. Flying-types, such as Zapdos, Crobat, and Togekiss, all give Shaymin trouble due to their bulk and resistance to its various moves. They need to be wary of the occasional Hidden Power Ice, but otherwise they should have no trouble taking Shaymin down. Not only does Roserade give Shaymin competition as a Grass-type supporter or attacker, it can also take it on in battle. With its typing, Roserade 4x resists Seed Flare, only fears Hidden Power and Air Slash, and can do heavy damage with a super effective Sludge Bomb. Two specially defensive behemoths that can take Shaymin head-on are Empoleon and Snorlax. Empoleon is at worst 2HKOed by a Choice Specs Earth Power, while it can do respectable amounts of damage with Ice Beam. Snorlax can take Seed Flares with ease if it avoids the Special Defense drops, while it can effectively stall out all of Seed Flare's PP with Rest or wear it down with repeated Body Slams.</p>
 

SJCrew

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Hidden Power Ice is pretty useless; I actually think Air Slash should be in its place, as it offers all of the coverage you could want from an HP with slightly higher base power and useful flinch chance.
 

JockeMS

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If you read the set comments, you would've noticed one simple name that makes a big difference: Zapdos. Hidden Power Ice lets Shaymin hit Zapdos alongside Grass-types. Slightly higher power and only a 30% flinch rate is not enough to give up super effective coverage on Zapdos; it resists Air Slash and does not take enough damage from Seed Flare. Air Slash doesn't give Shaymin anything those two Hidden Power does.

I could move Air Slash to AC though.
 

JockeMS

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Really, really, really underwhelming. Especially with Roserade in the tier. And Chou Toshio agreed. I asked about his opinion on SubSeed before even making this skeleton. And I haven't had much success with it.

But like Chou said to me, if another QC member feels it should be included, I'll include it.
 

SJCrew

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it resists Air Slash and does not take enough damage from Seed Flare.
36.1% - 42.7%

Two Seed Flares and Zapdos is down. You can't OHKO it after rocks with HP Ice if it wants to revenge you either, so it really is useless.
 

JockeMS

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Two Seed Flares? All calcs I've looked up requires three, including yours. Let's say 42. Take that times 2 and you get 84. How is that 100?

And I ran this by Chou and he said AC for Air Slash. HP Ice secures the 2HKO. Seed Flare needs SR.
 

SJCrew

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Unfortunately, you don't get the luxury of assuming Stealth Rock is not up, since it's been a competitive standard since it was introduced, it's assumed in all competitive discussions about what Pokemon gets which KOs...etc. Realistically, we are looking at a 87.51% chance to 2HKO (assuming you don't get the Sp. Def drop or Zapdos doesn't win the Speed tie and fry you with Heat Wave).

Now let's talk about something a little more important.



Mentioned in the OP on the list of targets Shaymin has trouble with, consistently used more than Zapdos every month, and is actually OHKOed by Shaymin's move of choice, which isn't something we can say about HP Ice vs Zapdos.

Not good enough? Let's try #1.



Seed Flare (19.54% - 22.99%) -> Air Slash (65.1% - 77.4%) = 84.64% - 100.39%
Seed Flare (19.54% - 22.99%) -> HP Ice (60.5% - 72%) = 80.04% - 94.99%

A simple AC mention will not do. If anything, you'll want to put HP Ice in AC for teams that are troubled by Zapdos. Or if you're insistent that Zapdos is important enough to have to catch on the switch-in without Rocks or a Sp. Def Drop, and win a Speed tie against, second slash.


Seed Flare (30.8% - 36.7%) -> Air Slash (52.2% - 61.6%) = 83% - 98.3%
Seed Flare (30.8% - 36.7%) -> HP Ice (48.7% - 57.5%) = 79.5% - 94.2%
 

Chou Toshio

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Alright, SJ makes a convincing argument-- though I really hate imperfect accuracy on these pathetically low base power coverage moves. Move HP Ice to AC and Air Slash to be slashed behind HP Fire. Zapdos (and Flygon) are not so important to hit, and I admittedly forgot about Heracross. Though actually, I tend to doubt the value of Rest in the set. Maybe with LO, but with Specs Rest is pretty meh.

Maybe have all 4 attacking moves and AC Rest, with a mention that Rest is much more effective with LO.
 
Choice Specs can go in AC, Life Orb is the superior item. I also think Modest can go in AC, but I don't have any experience using it personally.

This should be the set:

move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Air Slash / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Rest / Synthesis

One of Shaymin's major selling points is its bulk, and reliable recovery is much more important than having an extra attack that is really only good for a handful of mons in UU. Synthesis is better if you just dont care about opposing sand, but because Hippo is pretty common it's generally inferior to Rest.

SD + spdef makes a good CM counter for defensive teams, beating mons like Raikou. OO it.

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FlareBlitz

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SubSeed is good.

Shaymin @ Life Orb
Timid
32 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 216 Spe
-Substitute
-Leech Seed
-Seed Flare
-Air Slash

Those who know me will remember this as a variation of a highly similar Sceptile set I popularized in Gen IV.

Subseed + Life Orb might be kind of odd, but the intense offensive pressure this set provides is really useful. You have the advantage of using Substitute for prediction against offensive teams and the power of Life Orb behind your attacks (letting you beat Rosie without having to predict the switch) while Leech Seed helps you get past counters to the offensive set, like Togekiss and Snorlax. Leech Seed can also be pseudo-passed, which is great when you're dealing with something like Zapdos or Escavalier. I've used this set to great effect.
 
Now that you mention it, Leech Seed should definitely be AC on the offensive set. I don't think Substitute is enough to warrant an entirely new set though.
 

Pocket

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What FlareBlitz is selling is not just Leech Seed, but Sub Seed, though - Leech Seed alone is not as effective, imo.
 

JockeMS

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And what Snunch is getting at is that the set FlareBlitz has presented is exactly like the current one, with only Substitute and Leech Seed instead of Hidden Power and Rest / Synthesis and some minor EV changes.
 

FlareBlitz

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That reminds me. Make sure you mention that, if running HP Fire, the EV spread should be changed to 32 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe. Since HP Fire drops a speed EV there is no point in running max speed besides tying with -1 Victini Scarf, which is...kind of useless compared to getting a Life Orb number and denying Download pokemon a boost.
 

shrang

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Synthesis is another way to restore health, not putting Shaymin to sleep, but with the ever so common sand around, it can be unreliable.
| 34 | Hippopotas | 3415 | 7.087% | 3250 | 8.020% |
That's not that high. Common for a Pokemon game, yes, but 7.1% in the end is 7.1%. I know the 1337 stats have it much higher, but hey, not everyone using the set are going to have a rating of 1337 or higher =). Synthesis is a better move in general because you don't have to switch out to continue attacking. Shaymin is bulky enough to recover 50% and not get hit too hard anyway, unless you're facing a super effective STAB. We see Hippo on 7.1% of teams, which means Synthesis is probably better 92.9% of the time. This is not mention that Shaymin kills most things that like on Sand teams anyway.

Also, I don't know about anyone else, but when I read this skeleton, I'm getting an impression that Shaymin is crap. One set, "not much it can do", and "stiff competition with Roserade" discourages me from using Shaymin, when it really shouldn't be. As for Specs, I really don't think you should just put it into AC that quickly. Yes, LO is the superior item, but that in no way means that it should be omitted. It is still a great item to use on Shaymin.

Also, Shaymin is a lot more versatile than just one set, isn't it? I mean, it has fantastic bulk and usable support moves. You can easily use this thing as a support Pokemon, which is why you should probably include a support set with Aromatherapy / Seed Flare / 2 fillers, which you pick from Rest, Earth Power, Leech Seed or Healing Wish. I really don't think we shouldn't write off Scarf so soon either. Shaymin DOES have an excellent base 100 Speed, as well as a strong STAB and good coverage.
 

JockeMS

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Hey, I'm just doing what Snunch is telling me. Don't put this on me. I fully trust this QC team to know what's best.

And from personal experience, SubSeed is underwhelming, but I might use the wrong spread, idk? If you say it can do more, please, give me proof of that and a working set and I'll implement it if QC says so.

Also, Scarf is weak as hell. I've tried both Modest and Timid, and both were nothing both disappointing.

And last to adress is Synthesis. Look at Snunch's first post. And the part about sand being common I only added cause I've heard so many complain about it being so common and deadly and all that... But I'll rephrase if it bothers you so much, in a skeleton.
 
These analyses are tailored to high-level play. We don't want to set up the reader to lose when they get +20 ladder games. Choiced Shaymin has to deal with the fact that its STAB move is the second worst type offensively behind poison; 7 types resist it, forcing Shaymin to have to pull off a lot of prediction to be effective. Support Shaymin sounds very niche and outclassed. If you have a set you like post it.
 

PK Gaming

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Just some background on Leech Seed:

The only reason Leech Seed saw use was because it was incredible at dealing with Chansey. 101 Subs + Leech meant you could beat anyday of the week... that's not the case anymore with Chansey being banned. When Chansey drops down, I could definitely see it coming back. Also, I definitely don't want to see any choiced sets on Shaymin, Life Orb is strictly better than Specs, and Choice Scarf is a weak option on Shaymin.
 

shrang

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Life Orb Seed Flare vs standard Snorlax: 29.82% - 35.09%
Choice Specs Seed Flare vs standard Snorlax: 34.11% - 40.35% (good shot at a 3HKO)

Life Orb Seed Flare vs standard Deoxys-D: 46.38% - 54.61%
Choice Specs Seed Flare vs standard Deoxys-D: 53.29% - 63.16% (clean 2HKO regardless of SR)

Life Orb Seed Flare vs standard Porygon2: 39.57% - 46.79%
Choice Specs Seed Flare vs standard Porygon2: 45.19% - 53.74% (guaranteed 2HKO after SR)

Yes, LO is for the most part, better than Specs, but that in no way means that Specs doesn't have its benefits. The above calculations show that Specs has a much better chance of breaking down these walls than you do with LO. Scarf is a weak option, yes, but it can still survive as a good revenge killer because it has the Speed and the coverage to take down multiple threats.
 

PK Gaming

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Those calcs look good in paper, but in practice, they'll just end up switching to a sturdy grass resist (Roserade, Moltres, Bronzong, etc) and use Shaymin as a set up fodder. LO is "slightly" weaker, but at the same time it doesn't have to worry about predicting wrong. The inability to get past Roserade is a pretty big deal. Also, since Seed flare can drop sharply drop the targets SpD, there's a good chance you won't end up needing that Specs boost anyway.

Scarf Shaymin is just a weak set period, there is no way around it. I'd never use it over something like Roserade (who doesn't even have a choiced set mind you!) that has that awesome dual stab or that sleep threat.

They're weak options that should stay in OO, no doubt about that.
 

Chou Toshio

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Agreed. Choiced Grass-type attack is pretty fail, even with 40% special fall (needs 80%, just saying...).

Standard Sub / Leech seed is also bad... I'd have to playtest Flareblitz's LO version to weigh in on it.

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