Flying in the new CAP Metagame

**Deck Knight** · Mar 28th, 2012, 7:43:23 PM

Hello everyone, I'd like to start a little revitalization effort of the main forum. There's always seemed to be a lot of apprehension about jumping into the main forum with a non-process thread. There's no need for that, in fact the CAP moderators are already in the process of clearing out some of the clutter so that CAP participants don't feel like the only threads they can start and post in are CAP Process threads.

Now, I'm no expert at BW CAP, but historically Flying STAB has had major impacts on the CAP Pokemon. After the release of Syclant, Revenankh, and Pyroak, Togekiss started to show up everywhere because of its reliable bulk and the fact it could check, cripple, or counter the major CAP Pokemon with a combination of Thunder Wave and Air Slash.

In general Flying has gotten stronger over time because so many CAPs had a type weak to Flying. Fidgit's Ground STAB did nothing to them, Arghonaut had no solid answer for Togekiss, and immunity to ShadowStrike made Kitsunoh less than ideal. Even Stratagem had to watch out for the aforementioned Thunder Wave and Aura Sphere.

After Colossoil is when Flying really started picking up though. Colossoil not only demolished OU's premier spinblocker in Rotom-W, applied to CAP it could also maul Kitsunoh and easily get a spin in or tear teams apart. Togekiss was slower than it and couldn't paralyze it easily, but another flying type stepped in to fill the void: Staraptor. With Colossoil ridding Staraptor of Rotom Appliances and common Stealth Rocks, Staraptor was perfectly suited to enter not only as a partner, but also as a foil to Colossoil. It's difficult to imagine a more effective paper counter to Colossoil than a faster Normal/Flying Pokemon with Intimidate, Close Combat, and huge ATK.

This is not to discount another popular flying threat at the time: Crobat. Crobat's combination of speed and decent bulk along with Taunt, Whirlwind, and what was then 70% Hypnosis in Platinum made it a great backstop, since it 4x resisted the common Fighting attacks and was immune to Earthquake.

Generation 5 now has Rain everywhere, and Hurricane is a fantastic move. Tomohawk is almost a testament to the relevance of Flying in Gen 5 as a whole, since it introduced so many new Fighting-type threats for Terrakion to Conkeldurr. Ground also got a new friend in Excadrill, so Earthquake immunity was also a selling point.

What is your observations on Flying in the CAP metagame? Do you run Sun just to mess with Hurricane or Rain to abuse it? How often do you run into Cyclohm, Krillowatt, and Kitsunoh, which resist Flying? What are your favorite Flying sets? Flying counters?

**jas61292** · Mar 29th, 2012, 11:02:35 AM

Ok, so lets get this discussion started. Now, I have been one of the people playing CAP the most since it has gone up on PS, and I must say, Flying types have not been nearly as common as I would have thought. Guys who are common in OU such as Skarmory or Gliscor do not show up nearly as much. However, with all the powerful special attacking CAPs with wide movepools, I don't think this is all that surprising.

Now I personally run two main teams, Hail and Rain. My hail team has been incredibly successful on the ladder, and while it does not have any fliers itself, it is noteworthy for being able to completely annihilate most flying type Pokemon. Against powerful blizzards from Syclant and a barrage of Ice Shards from Mamoswine and others, few flying types stand a chance. Obviously no team is without flaws, but when it comes to flying type, hail is an exceptional way to shut them down.

But to turn things around and talk about Flying type dominance, I'll shift over to my other team. Simply put, Tomohawk is the god of Rain. Awesome power, fantastic abilities, and the capability of shutting down almost every physical attacker ever. And, of course, in rain, it has the awesome Hurricane. Personally, my favorite Tomo set is Rain Toxic Stall:

Tomohawk @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Toxic
Substitute
Roost
Hurricane
Nature: Bold
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 SpA

This set can come in on most physical attackers and almost any wall, get up a Substitute, and either stall the opponent or break right through with Hurricane. Now in general, running Aura Sphere over Hurricane would probably be the better move. Fighting is an amazing offensive type, and nails the powerful Steel Types who are immune to your Toxic stalling. However, I have found Hurricane to be much more useful in CAP. In OU, only Gengar was truly a full stop to a set with Aura Sphere, and only a few others like Tentacruel could wall it well. However, in CAP, running Aura Sphere makes you unable to touch Kitsunoh, and makes you set up bait for Fidgit and Shed Skin Revenankh. While the overall coverage of Flying might not be as favorable, nothing is immune to it, and it gets plenty of key hits such as on Rev. Additionally, Hurricane has a 30% confusion chance, so even guys like Kit or Wash Rotom who generally break this set are at risk. In fact, more often than not I have found myself confuse haxing my way past Kit.

One note is that the EV spread on this might not be the best. I am not exactly great at maximizing stats and such, but this has worked well, so I have yet to find reason to change it. Basically, defense is maximized to let you wall mast physical sweepers. 212 is enough HP to get 101 Subs to let you setup all over walls that rely on Seismic Toss, and the rest is put in SpA to give Hurricane some bite.

Honestly, I think Tomohawk is easily the best Flying type in the CAP tier, and someone every team needs to be prepared for, and often with more than one Pokemon. It can get around even some of its most solid counters with some luck and prediction, making it one of the most dangerous forces in the metagame.

srk1214 · Mar 29th, 2012, 3:37:36 PM

I play CAP a fair amount on PS as well and I can attest to the severe obnoxiousness of that stalling Tomohawk, even under other weather, but especially under rain. I have admittedly been running an all-choice team in CAP for quite some time now (for teh lulz, but it actually works pretty well,) so a stalling Tomohawk is bound to hurt my team more than average.

But still, that Rain-stall Tomohawk has nearly cost me the match a few times. One time, I had a 5-1 lead that nearly get erased. That was even with 2 immunities to toxic and 4 flying resists on my team.

Flying is most definitely relevant, and Tomohawk has the bulk, combined with Prankster, to fit on any team.

ZhengTann · Mar 30th, 2012, 9:38:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat srk1214

Flying is most definitely relevant, and Tomohawk has the bulk, combined with Prankster, to fit on any team.

I think that Pranskter, coupled with its movepool, is what makes Tomohawk so annoyingly effective. With access to so many support moves, Tomohawk is an incredible stall player and breaker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat jas61292

Personally, my favorite Tomo set is Rain Toxic Stall:

Tomohawk @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Toxic
Substitute
Roost
Hurricane
Nature: Bold
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 SpA

Such is a set that has walled me during the times I played against it. In fact, if I may point out the obvious, its easy to see why Tomohawk doesn't get Whirlwind - the chubby falcon would cause entry hazards teams to be permanently broken in the CAP metagame along with it.

**jas61292** · Mar 30th, 2012, 10:13:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ZhengTann

In fact, if I may point out the obvious, its easy to see why Tomohawk doesn't get Whirlwind - the chubby falcon would cause entry hazards teams to be permanently broken in the CAP metagame along with it.

Actually, Tomohawk does indeed get Whirlwind. And Roar for that matter. However, even with Prankster, it has -5 priority, which makes is not one of the best options for such a stall set. In addition to the fact that it doesn't want to give up any of its moves, Tomo is able to beat powerful special attackers by having a sub up when they come in, let it poison and then stall. Using Whirlwind would let the opponent break the sub, and potentially bring in something that could force you out.

I do think that a set with Whirlwind could be possible, but that would probably be better for a straight up wall set, rather than a Toxic Staller, possibly taking advantage of Intimidate to force switches and then blow out the counter to rack up residual damage.

ZhengTann · Apr 1st, 2012, 9:07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat jas61292

Actually, Tomohawk does indeed get Whirlwind. And Roar for that matter. However, even with Prankster, it has -5 priority, which makes is not one of the best options for such a stall set.

Thanks, noted. I'd like to bring mention to Skarmory's role if possible. While Generation V CAP does shine in the metagame, standard mons like the ole' iron bird still plays their niche very well. So far, Skarmory has yet to encounter CAP banes or competition, bar Sacred Fire packed by Necturna. While its threats in the original OU had been enough to roast the steel of its body, Skarmory remains a formidable defense in CAP metagame.

Which brings me to a question I'd like to ask - how much does the role of none-CAP Flying-types change in CAP metagame?

Mar 28th, 2012, 7:43:23 PM	#1
Deck Knight Jigen Makkoto Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,843 Massachusetts	Flying in the new CAP Metagame Hello everyone, I'd like to start a little revitalization effort of the main forum. There's always seemed to be a lot of apprehension about jumping into the main forum with a non-process thread. There's no need for that, in fact the CAP moderators are already in the process of clearing out some of the clutter so that CAP participants don't feel like the only threads they can start and post in are CAP Process threads. Now, I'm no expert at BW CAP, but historically Flying STAB has had major impacts on the CAP Pokemon. After the release of Syclant, Revenankh, and Pyroak, Togekiss started to show up everywhere because of its reliable bulk and the fact it could check, cripple, or counter the major CAP Pokemon with a combination of Thunder Wave and Air Slash. In general Flying has gotten stronger over time because so many CAPs had a type weak to Flying. Fidgit's Ground STAB did nothing to them, Arghonaut had no solid answer for Togekiss, and immunity to ShadowStrike made Kitsunoh less than ideal. Even Stratagem had to watch out for the aforementioned Thunder Wave and Aura Sphere. After Colossoil is when Flying really started picking up though. Colossoil not only demolished OU's premier spinblocker in Rotom-W, applied to CAP it could also maul Kitsunoh and easily get a spin in or tear teams apart. Togekiss was slower than it and couldn't paralyze it easily, but another flying type stepped in to fill the void: Staraptor. With Colossoil ridding Staraptor of Rotom Appliances and common Stealth Rocks, Staraptor was perfectly suited to enter not only as a partner, but also as a foil to Colossoil. It's difficult to imagine a more effective paper counter to Colossoil than a faster Normal/Flying Pokemon with Intimidate, Close Combat, and huge ATK. This is not to discount another popular flying threat at the time: Crobat. Crobat's combination of speed and decent bulk along with Taunt, Whirlwind, and what was then 70% Hypnosis in Platinum made it a great backstop, since it 4x resisted the common Fighting attacks and was immune to Earthquake. Generation 5 now has Rain everywhere, and Hurricane is a fantastic move. Tomohawk is almost a testament to the relevance of Flying in Gen 5 as a whole, since it introduced so many new Fighting-type threats for Terrakion to Conkeldurr. Ground also got a new friend in Excadrill, so Earthquake immunity was also a selling point. What is your observations on Flying in the CAP metagame? Do you run Sun just to mess with Hurricane or Rain to abuse it? How often do you run into Cyclohm, Krillowatt, and Kitsunoh, which resist Flying? What are your favorite Flying sets? Flying counters? __________________ [17:53] <&Deck_Knight> If I Cite and Prune CiteandPrune's post, what does that make me? [17:54] <Birkal> a citeandprune cite and prunner [17:54] <%DHR> O_o lol [17:54] <+Mos_Quitoxe> Cite and Prune doesn't do enough of either [17:55] <+Mos_Quitoxe> can we make him change it or force him to pay damages [17:55] <&Deck_Knight> It would be a lot easier for him to Cite and Prune if we made him a mod. [17:56] <&Deck_Knight> I delegate this task to Birkal. [17:57] <Birkal> >:\|

Mar 29th, 2012, 11:02:35 AM	#2
jas61292 likes his numbers Moderator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,243 Strong as a Corsola	Ok, so lets get this discussion started. Now, I have been one of the people playing CAP the most since it has gone up on PS, and I must say, Flying types have not been nearly as common as I would have thought. Guys who are common in OU such as Skarmory or Gliscor do not show up nearly as much. However, with all the powerful special attacking CAPs with wide movepools, I don't think this is all that surprising. Now I personally run two main teams, Hail and Rain. My hail team has been incredibly successful on the ladder, and while it does not have any fliers itself, it is noteworthy for being able to completely annihilate most flying type Pokemon. Against powerful blizzards from Syclant and a barrage of Ice Shards from Mamoswine and others, few flying types stand a chance. Obviously no team is without flaws, but when it comes to flying type, hail is an exceptional way to shut them down. But to turn things around and talk about Flying type dominance, I'll shift over to my other team. Simply put, Tomohawk is the god of Rain. Awesome power, fantastic abilities, and the capability of shutting down almost every physical attacker ever. And, of course, in rain, it has the awesome Hurricane. Personally, my favorite Tomo set is Rain Toxic Stall: Tomohawk @ Leftovers Ability: Prankster Toxic Substitute Roost Hurricane Nature: Bold EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 SpA This set can come in on most physical attackers and almost any wall, get up a Substitute, and either stall the opponent or break right through with Hurricane. Now in general, running Aura Sphere over Hurricane would probably be the better move. Fighting is an amazing offensive type, and nails the powerful Steel Types who are immune to your Toxic stalling. However, I have found Hurricane to be much more useful in CAP. In OU, only Gengar was truly a full stop to a set with Aura Sphere, and only a few others like Tentacruel could wall it well. However, in CAP, running Aura Sphere makes you unable to touch Kitsunoh, and makes you set up bait for Fidgit and Shed Skin Revenankh. While the overall coverage of Flying might not be as favorable, nothing is immune to it, and it gets plenty of key hits such as on Rev. Additionally, Hurricane has a 30% confusion chance, so even guys like Kit or Wash Rotom who generally break this set are at risk. In fact, more often than not I have found myself confuse haxing my way past Kit. One note is that the EV spread on this might not be the best. I am not exactly great at maximizing stats and such, but this has worked well, so I have yet to find reason to change it. Basically, defense is maximized to let you wall mast physical sweepers. 212 is enough HP to get 101 Subs to let you setup all over walls that rely on Seismic Toss, and the rest is put in SpA to give Hurricane some bite. Honestly, I think Tomohawk is easily the best Flying type in the CAP tier, and someone every team needs to be prepared for, and often with more than one Pokemon. It can get around even some of its most solid counters with some luck and prediction, making it one of the most dangerous forces in the metagame. __________________ <jas61292> I record everything <nyttyn> prove it. <nyttyn> WHAT WAS THE VERY FIRST THING I EVER SAID IN THIS CHANNEL. <jas61292> [06/02/12 \| 12:43] <NyttyN> Huh what deo you know shelll smash did get banned <nyttyn> what. <nyttyn> well congratulations jas your stalker nexus has reached an all time high.

Mar 29th, 2012, 3:37:36 PM	#3
srk1214 Supreme Master of Trivia Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 807	I play CAP a fair amount on PS as well and I can attest to the severe obnoxiousness of that stalling Tomohawk, even under other weather, but especially under rain. I have admittedly been running an all-choice team in CAP for quite some time now (for teh lulz, but it actually works pretty well,) so a stalling Tomohawk is bound to hurt my team more than average. But still, that Rain-stall Tomohawk has nearly cost me the match a few times. One time, I had a 5-1 lead that nearly get erased. That was even with 2 immunities to toxic and 4 flying resists on my team. Flying is most definitely relevant, and Tomohawk has the bulk, combined with Prankster, to fit on any team.