Gurdurr (Update)(QC 1/3)

[November Blue]

Old Analysis


IN PROGRESS

[Overview]

• Competes with Sawk for title of best NU Fighting-type
• Great defensive typing, good bulk-especially after a few boosts
• High Attack stat for a NFE, gives its attacks some serious punch
• Mach Punch is an excellent priority move that has considerable power before Bulk Up, and can be used to pick off weakened speedy foes such as Sawsbuck, Choice Scarf Braviary, and Cinccino
• Has trouble setting up early in the game, as there are many common Pokemon that can stop it
• No Leftovers, possible burn / toxic damage and reliance on Drain Punch for recovery means that Gurdurr can have trouble maintaining its health when being used as a general Fighting-type (rather than setting up)

[SET]
name: Bulk Up
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Mach Punch
move 3: Drain Punch
move 4: Rock Slide / Payback
item: Eviolite
ability: Guts
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD


[SET COMMENTS]

• Gurdurr's famous Bulk Up set! It punishes your status inducers by switching in, and if it can get just one Bulk Up boost, it can tank almost any hit and retaliate with Drain Punch, healing away the damage - it doesn't do this against everything, obviously, but if you keep it for a lategame sweep, it often can
• Mach Punch is amazing for finishing off weakened foes (as a general priority move), and finishing off stuff that survives a Drain Punch - it also shortens Gurdurr's list of checks, as Pokemon such as Swellow and Cinccino can't just waltz in and prey on Gurdurr's low Speed
• Rock Slide is the main coverage move, and is chosen for its higher PP and accuracy (compared to Stone Edge)
• Rock Slide catches Charizard, Magmortar, Braviary, Swellow, and is useful for Substitute Ninjask and Volbeat - it will always break their subs, unlike Payback
• Payback is more useful for Psychic and Ghost-types, such as Misdreavus, Gardevoir, and Musharna
• This set can deal with most leads quite well (mainly Rock-types)

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Appreciates Wish support so it can attack without setting up using its bulk without having to rely on Drain Punch for healing
• Offensive EV spread still provides a good amount of special bulk, and gives Gurdurr much more power - its Punches are now useful for general attacking, especially priority use, and it is able to pose a threat without having to set up Bulk Up upon Bulk Up, which gives it a lesser need for lots of bulk
• Gurdurr always survives Life Orb Magmortar's Fire Blast (76% to 89% with Timid, 83% to 98% with Modest), so it's not sacrificing much bulk at all
• Pairs well with Absol and Skuntank, which can take out Psychics and Ghosts
• A Rock or Steel-type is a good choice of partner if running Payback, as Gurdurr will not be able to KO the birds on the switch in - Probopass, Golem, Gigalith, Bastiodon ect.
• Charizard also causes problems if you're running Payback
• Sleep Powder, Clear Smog, and Taunt are problematic, which makes Tangela, defensive Exeggutor, Weezing, Misdreavus, Amoonguss, and Garbodor troublesome

[SET]
name: SubPunch
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: Rock Slide / Payback
move 4: Mach Punch / Drain Punch
item: Eviolite / Leftovers
ability: Guts
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD


[SET COMMENTS]

• This set will appreciate Iron Fist once it's released
• Pretty much the same build as the Bulk Up set, just with different moves
• Has much more initial power than the Bulk Up set, and takes a more offensive approach

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• ghfghf

[Other Options]

• Stone Edge
• Flame Orb, Toxic Orb, or Choice Band
• Taunt
• Hammer Arm, Superpower
• 0 Speed IV Brave Gurdurr for dealing more damage to Musharna, but the lower Speed leaves it vulnerable to most walls that it could recover on with Drain Punch, such as Probopass
• Not much else really...

[Checks and Counters]

• Exeggutor. Defensive sets can 2HKO with Psychic (72% to 85%), stall with SubSeed, wall with Sleep Powder and LumRest...
• Amoonguss takes barely any damage from Drain Punch, has Clear Smog to erase any boosts, and can Spore Gurdurr, incapacitating it
• Weezing has Clear Smog too, resists Drain Punch, and is bulky
• Garbodor also has Clear Smog, can tank Gurdurr's attacks, and set up Spikes on it
• Faster Psychic-types, such as Gardevoir, resist Gurdurr's Fighting-type moves and threaten it with Psychic
• Musharna can set up on it, and takes little damage due to its crazy bulk and lower Speed, which means that Payback only has 50 Base Power
• Tangela outspeeds, doesn't take much damage from Drain Punch without boosts, and can disarm with Sleep Powder or sap HP with Leech Seed
• Misdreavus and Frillish are immune to Fighting, and can Taunt Gurdurr to prevent setup, then wear it down with Shadow Ball or Night Shade
• Rotom-S can threaten with Air Slash (which could flinch) and Trick, which will render Gurdurr useless
• Braviary and Swellow can threaten with Brave Bird if Gurdurr has taken prior damage - Jolly Scarf Braviary deals 77% to 91%, and Guts-activated Swellow deals 90% to 106%
• Liquid Ooze Tentacool can switch into Drain Punch and potentially take out Gurdurr

[Unreleased]

• Iron Fist
• Iron Fist will be useful for the SubPunch set, as Gurdurr can use Substitute to block status, and the ability powers up Focus Punch, Drain Punch, Mach Punch, and Hammer Arm
• Bulk Up sets will prefer Guts, as the vulnerability to status isn't worth an 89 Base Power Drain Punch and a 48 Base Power Mach Punch
• The Bulk Up set would be much stronger with Iron Fist, but you'd have to keep it away from status, and Misdreavus would become a much better check
• Maybe a Life Orb or Choice Band set will become viable?

[Zebraiken*]

First of all, the spread needs to be changed. No Attack investment is garbage really, especially since Gurdurr has changed from more of a bulky booster to a utility 'mon with pretty good bulk, recovery, priority, and decent coverage. Not 100% on the spread but 252 HP / 252 Atk has worked wonderfully for me. If anyone has better spreads that'd be cool.

+0 LO Jolly Sawsbuck Double Edge vs 252/0 Gurdurr: 162-192 (43.31 - 51.33%) -- 5.86% chance to 2HKO
+2 LO Jolly Sawsbuck Double Edge vs 252/0 Gurdurr: 325-384 (86.89 - 102.67%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO

Gurdurr is a check at best, and it really can't afford to switch in on Sawsbuck. I know that LO Double Edge isn't incredibly common but it does exist (i.e. I use it) and it's quite a risk to take, especially if hazards are up. You can mention that Gurdurr can revenge a slightly weakened Sawsbuck with Mach Punch (88.07 - 103.97%) but I wouldn't say it can switch in too freely. Rock Slide should be the primary coverage move - Charizard is too prominent now and Gurdurr is huge switch-in bait if it doesn't have Rock Slide or zard comes in on a predicted Fighting-type move. LO Air Slash fucks him up hard, too (Timid LO does 59.89 - 71.12%, and I wouldn't want to rely on Air Slash -not- flinching). Not too sure if Ludicolo deserves a specific mention at all, although Leech Seed can be obnoxious. Because Rock Slide is now a primary slash, Psychic-types generally become the best checks/counters to it; namely Musharna. Exeggutor is also fantastic and can easily take advantage of Gurdurr. Ummmmm I'm probably forgetting some stuff but that is all I had on my mind right now!

[DTC]

Add a SubPunch set. You explained SubPunch for about 4 sentences in OO and a few people have used that set successfully. I haven't tested SubPunch out yet but from the positive feedback I've heard from it, it sounds like it's pretty good.

Some other things could be added are what teams Gurdurr does well on; what does it do for a team beside being a good set-up sweeper. The core of Musharna / Absol / Gurdurr is also very effective and should be mentioned.

I also agree with an EV spread change; the current EV spread is a bit simple and pretty weak. I'm not sure what to change it to yet -- Gurdurr seems like the 'mon that'd use a very specific EV spread. I'll get back to you about that later.

Also, emphasize Mach Punch a bit more in the Overview and include a bit more beef in the unreleased section. Why should Iron Fist never be used on Guts set? How does the power boost from Iron Fist help Gurdurr perform its job better? etc.

[Steamroll]

I had some success with a 252 HP / 200 Atk / 56 Def spread but I tried quite a few of them including the 252 / 252 spread Zeb mentioned. I would support the 252/252 spread because I'm just nuts. I also support a sub punch set and more focus on mach punch and the mush/absol/durp core.

[November Blue]

Okay, thanks guys. I agree with using a more offensive spread. I use a 252 HP / 252 Atk spread with Adamant, I've always disliked how weak the old spread is without any boosts.

And yeah, Exeggutor is a huge threat to Gurdurr. Ghost-types are becoming much rarer, but Exeggutor is one of the top reasons to run Payback right now.

I'll be doing some research on the EV spread too DTC.

[Steamroll]

du-bumping.

[Zebraiken*]

Any progress on this?

[Keiran]

Either Stone Edge or Rock Slide should just go in AC in all of Gurdurr's sets. It's just another power vs. accuracy argument. In addition, Payback should be slashed on its first set, it's still useful for hitting Psychic and Ghost-types like Musharna, Misdreavus etc.

I believe Rock Slide hits what it's intended to hit (Birds, mainly) hard enough

252 Atk Gurdurr (+Atk) Rock Slide vs 4 HP/0 Def Braviary: 57.31% - 67.84%
After entry hazards (SR): 281 - 317 (82.16% - 92.69%)
From there Gurdurr can use Mach Punch to finish Braviary off.

252 Atk Gurdurr (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 4 HP/0 Def Braviary: 76.61% - 90.64%
After entry hazards: 347 - 395 (101.46% - 115.5%)
OHKO with SR

The difference is minimal other than PP, accuracy and hitting hard against Pokemon with a neutrality to Rock.

[SuperJOCKE]

I would keep Stone Edge and slash in Payback behind it. Moving Rock Slide to AC ofc. Gurdurr is using its STAB moves for the most part anyways, so the PP and accuracy vs. power ordeal isn't that big of an issue for it. Stone Edge hits often enough.

[TropiOUs]

Something minor I would like to request, a mention of Brave Gurdurr with 0 speed iv as it allows him to payback at full power vs Musharna and Duosion

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat Keiran

Either Stone Edge or Rock Slide should just go in AC in all of Gurdurr's sets. It's just another power vs. accuracy argument. In addition, Payback should be slashed on its first set, it's still useful for hitting Psychic and Ghost-types like Musharna, Misdreavus etc.

I believe Rock Slide hits what it's intended to hit (Birds, mainly) hard enough

252 Atk Gurdurr (+Atk) Rock Slide vs 4 HP/0 Def Braviary: 57.31% - 67.84%
After entry hazards (SR): 281 - 317 (82.16% - 92.69%)
From there Gurdurr can use Mach Punch to finish Braviary off.

252 Atk Gurdurr (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 4 HP/0 Def Braviary: 76.61% - 90.64%
After entry hazards: 347 - 395 (101.46% - 115.5%)
OHKO with SR

The difference is minimal other than PP, accuracy and hitting hard against Pokemon with a neutrality to Rock.

Fully agree. The slash should look like Rock Slide / Payback.

Originally Posted by Fat SuperJOCKE

I would keep Stone Edge and slash in Payback behind it. Moving Rock Slide to AC ofc. Gurdurr is using its STAB moves for the most part anyways, so the PP and accuracy vs. power ordeal isn't that big of an issue for it. Stone Edge hits often enough.

I used Stone Edge Gurdurr early on in the Charizard metagame and missing on a predicted Charizard switch-in means GG. I would much much much much much rather have an accurate move that achieves the same 2HKOes and OHKOes rather than the inaccurate one with less PP. Just my opinion.

Also on the SubPunch set, I would probably stick with Drain Punch > Mach Punch, especially since you'll be setting up a Substitute on something that you force out (which is the overall idea of SubPunch anyway). I haven't tested it yet but it seems more sound to me that way.

[SuperJOCKE]

Yeah, maybe so. Forgot about Charizard. Was more into hitting Psychic- and Ghost-types, as well as Braviary and Rotom-S, harder.

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat SuperJOCKE

Yeah, maybe so. Forgot about Charizard. Was more into hitting Psychic- and Ghost-types, as well as Braviary and Rotom-S, harder.

You should mention the primary difference between the two, though - Stone Edge OHKOes both after SR damage, which is cute. Personally though, I would still stick with Rock Slide!

[Zebraiken*]

prod

[tennisace]

looks good, mention the bulky set in AC but mention why it's bad.

[Amarillo]

I don't see much wrong with this, nor can I think of stuff to add, so stamping this first and let's see some update on this it's almost been a month!

QC Approved 2/3

[Raseri]

I'd mention the specially defensive ev spread somewhere, its still usable. Otherwise QC Approved 3/3

[Zebraiken*]

This hasn't been touched in months and November Blue is god-knows-where, so I'm moving this to L&O and giving someone else a shot at writing up Gurdurr.