np: NU Stage 4 - Disco Inferno

[tennisace]

Magmortar was here, Zebraiken is a loser

Hi there.

Jynx is gone. The rocks aren't. So what else is new? Magmortar reigns supreme for the second month in a row, but arguably the best deterrent to offensive Water-types is now the first Pokemon in BL3. Bulky Offense and Stall in general immediately receive a boost, while faster Offensive teams lose a nuke. How will this shake out?

As an update:

We're doing great on activity both on the forums and on the ladder. NU is consistently one of, if not THE most active non-OU metagame forum and I'd like to thank everyone for making that happen. Let's keep it up!

Normally, I would say that once nominated and declared not broken, you can't nominate a suspect for at least a round. However, Damp/Heat Rock are fair game to nominate if people feel they are very overpowering.

So let's discuss! Did the metagame change for the better or not?

Edit: suspect paragraphs.

Jynx - 7-0 Ban
Weather Rocks - 1-6 Do Not Ban

DTC

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Jynx - Ban

With access to an amazing STAB combination, 95 base Speed, and Lovely Kiss, Jynx is an amazing threat in NU. Jynx can easily wreck through a team with its amazing STAB's and Lovely Kiss anything it can't beat in one shot. Thanks to the new sleep mechanics in BW, hitting something with Lovely Kiss is effectively is killing it. It's not very hard for a competent Jynx user to defeat at least 1-2 Pokemon with Jynx, and the worst part is Jynx doesn't even have many checks. These 5 things eliminate nearly all of Jynx's checks: 1) Stealth Rock 2) Psyshock 3) A little bit of prior damage 4) Nasty Plot 5) Pursuit support. All of these things aren't very rare, and make all of Jynx's checks very shaky. Often the best way to beat Jynx is to revenge it, which isn't a very good way to beat it when Jynx has 95 base Speed and OHKO's pretty much everything that tries to switch-in. Also, the Jynx user could always just switch out.

Jynx is too much for NU to handle.

Damp Rock - Do Not Ban

It's hard to say whether a playstyle is broken or not. Rain is an incredibly powerful playstyle; however, it's not like it's incredibly over-powering. Rain is largely based on team match-up; while it does well against some teams, other teams, if they carry a few checks, will do well against it. A lot of the Pokemon on rain teams are good, but not amazing without rain set-up. As such, rain teams are often forced to set-up right away. While they are setting up, you can set-up yourself or just hit them as hard as you can. It's not like there is a wide variety of abusers; many are also weak to the same things. Pokemon such as Ludicolo are good rain checks. There are also super fast Choice Scarf users. For stall teams, often they will have Toxic Spikes, which really cripples rain teams unless they're using Rain Dance Amoonguss. Not only that, but they can stall out the rain turns with Protect.

Rain is a killer; once set-up, it can easily devastate you. However, if you can stall it out, and carefully pick away at the team, you can beat it. I'm not convinced that it as a playstyle is broken as of now.

Heat Rock - Do Not Ban

Heat Rock is the same deal. Once set-up, it can easily destroy teams, but the playstyle is very limiting and it's not like they can just set-up for free. Sun abusers are even more dependent on their weather than rain, and also don't get the power boost + speed boost on the same Pokemon. The Fire-type abusers are also weak to Stealth Rock. There are a few checks to sun teams out there, such as Flareon and Altaria, and again, you can always stall it out.

Sun has the advantage of having more of a variety in abusers both type-wise and quantity wise; rain has the advantage of having both the power and speed boost on the same Pokemon. Both I'm not convinced that they are broken as of now. Time will tell. It's not like weather is a truly urgent matter with its low usage.

Zebraiken

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Jynx | Ban

Not a whole lot to say outside of what I've already said in the suspect thread. To summarize, though: Jynx is one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier, and has excellent coverage, power, and a 75% accurate sleep move in Lovely Kiss. Jynx also has a few non-attacking options available to it, in the forms of Substitute, Calm Mind, and Nasty Plot (of which only the first and third see a whole lot of usage). Jynx has very few counters, and the Pokemon that check one set easily fall to another, meaning you may lose a Pokemon or two simply identifying Jynx's set.

A simple set of Psyshock / Focus Blast / Ice Beam @ LO will be able to 2HKO the entire tier save a few Pokemon who are basically utterly useless outside of beating Jynx (Hypno and Grumpig, pretty much). Out of every faster Pokemon, hardly anything can easily switch in (Slaking and Miltank are the exceptions, and they only count if Jynx has no Focus Blast). Basically, if played correctly, Jynx will eliminate at least one Pokemon on the opposing team and take another with Lovely Kiss - the metagame simply cannot handle Jynx. It can be revenge killed, but then you gotta consider: how do you get your revenge killer in? You can take it out with priority like Absol's Sucker Punch but then it could just go "lol sub" and bypass it. We have very few Pursuit users to take advantage of its monster weakness to Pursuit and none of them can successfully switch in.

Jynx shreds through offensive and defensive teams alike, and nothing can switch into it -and- outright KO it. Welcome to BL3, you broken fucker. >:(

Damp & Heat Rock | Do Not Ban

IMO it's far too early at this point in time to nominate the weather rocks. My point that I emphasized throughout their suspect threads (I think mostly the rain one but idk it counts for both) is that they aren't used. If they aren't used, who's to say that their effectiveness isn't simply because we aren't prepared for them? To me, trying to ban the weather rocks at this stage is basically us getting rid of something we don't like to play with... which goes totally against the goal of banning things anyway. If weather becomes overwhelming at some point I will advocate re-nominating it for suspect, but at this point in time I feel like it's just an underused strategy that apparently people aren't prepared for. I want to wait and see if, when it becomes more popular, the metagame will adapt. If it doesn't, okay, we can nom the rocks again - but if it does, then we just preventing ourselves from banning something that wasn't broken. Weather teams may be unliked, but that doesn't mean they're broken.

Steamroll

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Damp Rock, beyond giving seven turns of rain and making mons like Gorebyss, Huntail, Ludicolo and Floatzel totally behemoths is definitely a benefit. But beside this point it's the least common of playstyles and very few teams are remotely prepared for it as such. If this was a total threat I'd say we be seeing this a lot more than last month, especially with it being suspect. I understand that there's a lot to abuse with it but it's not worth banning something for being a potential threat, let's wait and see if it becomes more common and judge it from there, not theorymon.

Heat Rock, quite similar to Damp Rock. Has a list of abusers, two that recently dropped in Charizard and Sawsbuck and is also sadly not all that common. I seriously don't want to ban something because of theorymon reasoning and the fact that the metagame hasn't properly adapted to weather in general as a threat. We can always pull the "overwhelming threat card" for when and if these strategies become more common.

Jynx is a bitch, I'll get this out there now. A great speed stat and an even better Sp. Attack stat help Jynx muscle through pokemon in the tier. Dry Skin as an ability helps Jynx switch in on common water-type moves Scot-free beyond Stealth Rock damage. Jynx's main crux though, is Lovely Kiss. This allows Jynx to take out at least one mon for an extended period of time in the game, likely making it death fodder in the match. Magmortar can switch in on a Lovely Kiss, but rocks damage and the potential for Psyshock on the switch can easily send Magmortar reeling. Jynx's offensive movepool also makes it incredibly hard to check, leaving only Grumpig, Hypno and Metang to try and wall Jynx's attacks. To be totally honest the best of the three is Grumpig, which even then needs a lot of team support to function properly (and this is ignoring the possibility of jynx lovely kissing it). With this huge offensive presence and lack of reliable, viable checks is a bit too much for this tier to handle. I vote for Jynx to be banned from NU.

Raseri

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Jynx is broken. The many sets she can run are all capable of overwhelming every style of team with very few sets. The mono-attacker can run over any team that is not extremely hyper offensive. The Offensive NP set can be stalled out my really defensive teams but rips through more offensive ones. The LO set dismantles anything not ridiculously bulky. Combined with Jynx's great movepool and speed stat her lack of bulk can be overlooked since you will never get a chance to hit her. Lovely Kiss is what seals the deal; she is able to turn everything but statused pokemon and Magmortar into setup fodder with one move. And seeing as she can dismantle common cores with a boost I believe she is broken.

Damp Rock is not broken. Rain does not see enough use to accurately determine if it is to much for the metagame. The few rain teams are handle-able by common Pokemon like Jynx and Absol. Seeing as rain has to use many less then steller pokemon to sweep it is not an overwhelming force in the metagame. If it saw more use I would like to see a revote in the future.

Heat Rock is not broken. Sun teams are rare in this metagame; and the ones that are used share to many common weaknesses to effectively sweep. Sun teams rely to much on momentum that is impossible to maintain since each sweeper has stops(except charizard) and is reliant on the weather to sweep; which they rarely do well anyways. If sun became more common a revote might be neccesary.

amarillo

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Damp Rock: no ban
Heat Rock: no ban
Jynx: Ban

I believe I told DTC last night about what I thought, but here goes the paras:

Weather: I'll put these together b/c im running low on time. I believe the recent fiasco in the rain suspect thread simply sums up what I have to say about this ban. Reason #1- It's never seen: why ban it? Granted, usage does not define viability--but I went ahead and laddered with the stereotypical 2 damp rock users + 3 swift swim users no-brainer-team. Of course I got a boring-ole result when you don't put much thought in your team: you get somewhere, but it's not the best. Then, I ask: if it's broken, shouldn't it mow down teams even though I didn't put much thought in the team? Even though I'm just playing through like a drone? (This is a legitimate concern against 'weather doesn't see much success in ladders' because weather really makes you play like a drone unless you're really really mentally strong. I'm not.) I am using much of the 'broken' part of the rain, after all!

You don't really get anywhere with a formulaic weather team--that's reason number 2 that I believe rain isn't broken. Just like any other team prototypes, you need thought and good plays in order to win. Maybe after the Jynx ban, people might using really situational things to counter water-type spam, and that might lead to overpreparation. But that's not my concern at the moment, is it?

As for sun, I think it's quite similar. Besides the subpar usage, (i see it more than rain, though) sun teams are a little more diverse, but you still need good plays and a well thought-out team in order to win.

Jynx: First, we start off with the fact that nothing can ever reliably wall Jynx. SubNP and 3-attacks, or any other combination of its great moves gives it so many different options. It's on a good speed tier, and a good ability on top of that. All this simply means Jynx is 'just a great Pokemon,' but... Sleep. Sleep is just way too strong in BW. Think about it this way: even without sleep, the 3-attacks Jynx is quite the beast, it may as well be a Magmortar-type special sweeper (excellent coverage, great offensive STAB, lacking defense but /passable/ special defense, speed, etc. Jynx does not flat-out lose out to Magmortar in any of these categories, and is sometimes even significantly superior.) Sleep just puts it over the edge.

In order to contain Jynx, you need a large majority of your team faster than 95 base (which is pretty darn hard, and eliminates a large portion of even the offensive metagame.) Sleep essentially is a kill-perhaps even better because it gives you setup turns. If you look at prominent sleep users in other tiers, you see some problems: most commonly predictable counters, slow speed. Jynx has neither of those weaknesses. The most worrisome part is that you don't know what its counter is until it's slept something. Basically, you have two ways to contain Jynx: either you guess its set right so that you have the proper counter still functioning, or you run everything that outspeeds it and stick lum berry on everything that doesn't (this basically means overpreparation, which is in my opinion bannable offense)

Addressing the other side of the coin, it does suck that Jynx can be revenge-killed. But i thought... so did a lot of other Pokemon that has been banned throughout the history of Pokemon. It does suck that Jynx is weak to entry hazards. But if entry hazards are integral part of how you beat Jynx, you won't get anywhere against a team with a proper spinning core and/or a team that just pressures you against early SR and makes good use of Jynx before they're out. My para thus far has mostly been a rant, and I'm sure it has a lot of unaddressed holes because it's so rushed, but really, the argument for (and against) banning has been all laid out in the thread, and it's our job to make the difficult call.

NatGeo

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Jynx:

I personally was very against Jynx’s banning for some time, mainly because of its terrible defensive typing and the fact that some of its revenge killers were fairly common (I’ll give into the fact that these weren’t nearly as common as Gorebyss’s revenge killers were r1). However, I’ve had a few conversations with DTC a while back and quite frankly my opinion changed regarding Jynx. You could almost make a case of Jynx paralleling Durant in RU because of their similar characteristics, but that’s a whole different argument in itself. The sheer amount of sets Jynx can run alone is a headache for teams to face - any set can almost ALWAYS bluff one or more other sets for a turn or two by using Lovely Kiss or some other move. Furthermore, each of its sets are incredibly deadly in their own right. All variants of NP sweep slower teams at +2, while sets with Lovely Kiss (in this case over Nasty Plot) don’t really need the boosting move because a sleeping move on a Pokemon like Jynx really makes things difficult. I personally don’t even think the SR weakness matters *that* much at this point, considering there are plenty of other sweepers in NU who do just fine with a weakness to Stealth Rock (Charizard / Magmortar?). I personally vote for a ban.


Weather Rocks:

I’ve held by this opinion for a long time - weather rocks should not be allowed in NU. Sun and Rain are both much more manageable with only 3 / 4 turns to attack with a boost. Three extra turns may not seem like much, but imagine trying to hold off a mixed Floatzel when it has a good 3 or 4 turns left to attack you. That’s just one example; all of the prominent weather sweepers get a few extra turns to batter the opponent with Damp and Heat Rock.

tennisace

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Jynx - Ban

Personally, as the leader of NU, I tried my best to avoid jumping the gun and banning things because solely because people didn't like playing against them. However, there comes a point where a Pokemon gets to be too much in a metagame, regardless of whether or not it can be revenge killed or checked. Jynx had gotten to that point. It wasn't any one particular set, as many have said, it was the fact that it was almost guaranteed to put at least one Pokemon on the opposing team out of the match, whether through sleep or through a KO. In addition, all of the different Jynx sets have almost completely different checks and counters, from LK + 3 Attacks to SubNP to NP + two attacks to the rare but devastating SubCM; these are all large threats in and of themselves. The fact that you only know Jynx will be carrying Lovely Kiss and Ice Beam adds to the problem. As to the argument of "it can be revenge killed": almost every single Pokemon banned this generation in ANY tier could be revenge killed. However to be able to revenge kill something, you need to let a Pokemon on your team die, which isn't a reliable method of handling a threat, especially since there is no good way to trap Jynx outside of a Pokemon using Pursuit (of which the only one is Skuntank), and that isn't reliable since Jynx can just attack to further weaken your opponent's team. But I digress. Jynx is too versatile and too powerful to stay in NU.

Weather Rocks - Don't ban

I've swayed a bit on these, but the most telling thing is that outside of a few very well built weather teams, I haven't really seen much of them at all. (Not to use anecdotal evidence to make my decision, but I was able to stall out a sun team twice out of 8 turns of weather, where my only Fire resists were Golem and Magmortar, and my only Grass resists were Magmortar and Sawsbuck.) If weather teams were truly centralizing and broken, we should be seeing tons of them on the ladder. As of right now though, we aren't seeing this. There are plenty of checks for weather, be it specific Pokemon or just general users of Priority moves, or even moves like Protect; the clock ticks on for weather teams, and every turn spent switching around to get a good matchup is another turn of Sun/Rain gone. We can revisit these in the future if they get too overpowering but the fact of the matter is NU doesn't have the powerful sweepers to overpower their checks like in other tiers.

[Tyranitarphantom]

The best answer to Gorebyss is gone, leaving revenge killing as the only real way to kill it (I guess Lapras works, but Lapras is rather meh overall). This can't end well.

Gotta say, I'm surprised that Heat Rock didn't get the boot. Sun teams are such a hassle, I've taken up using a Sawsbuck of my own just to (try to) handle sun teams. What else do you guys do to stall out the 7 turns?

[tennisace]

Originally Posted by Fat Tyranitarphantom

The best answer to Gorebyss is gone, leaving revenge killing as the only real way to kill it (I guess Lapras works, but Lapras is rather meh overall). This can't end well.

You're forgetting about Ludicolo, which absolutely wrecks Gorebyss if you run a bulky set, or run a rain set and outspeed + KO.

Also I forgot to mention it in the OP, but I'll edit in the suspect paragraphs soon.

[MikeDecIsHere]

Any chance we can see the paragraphs from the senate?

Also, id expect rain teams to drop down a bit, since they just lost one of its most powerful abusers. Gorebyss might spike for a bit untill people discover another truely solid counter. Defensive Ludicolo might see some usage which would be cool.

Edit: just saw tennis' edit. I'm a derp.

[CrashinBoomBang]

Yeah, from what I've seen most people have relied on revenge killing to stop Gorebyss even before the Jynx ban, so it really shouldn't be that huge of a factor.

I'm eager to see if there will be more Bulky Offense teams on the ladder now, seeing how Jynx single handedly destroyed them for the most part.

[Steamroll]

Mikedec is a derp, herp.

To be honest even though jynx is gone, gorebyss has plenty of checks against her. Ludicolo is check #1 bbeing able to safely wall gore's attacks (sans HP Bug) while totally wrecking face back. Quagsire is check #2, being able to wall HP Grass-less gorebyss. Offensively, all you need is any mon packing a powerful attack and speed above base 86 to outspeed with a scarf. Rotom-S, Zebstrika, and others come to mind. Lapras is also a decent check, being able totake atleast one hit before smacking back hard with Thunderbolt; Water Absorb allows Lapras the oppoortunity to switch in scot free and recover from rocks damage, too.

All in all Gorebyss by herself is definitely stoppable, if we want to complain about rain can we at least use it to recognizable levels? I mean all last month I never faced a rain team and only faced one or two sun teams. The thing is that this metagame hasn't adapted to the weather yet, let's give it time before we go gun-ho banning shit based on theorymonned ideas...

[TLCJR4LIFE]

Rain is beyond terrible. I struggle to win a single match with it.

[breh]

regice is a really good mon and it nearly 100% counters gorebyss if it doesn't get critted.

[ChaoticaMortis]

...

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Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

Jynx is gone.

Good night, sweet prince.

Well, now that we don't have to put up with Jynx maybe team diversity will increase a little bit. As much as I love Magmortar, I was getting kind of sick of it being stapled to my team just for Vital Spirit. Maybe now I can try out Charizard or something.

Weather still doesn't bug me much. I rarely see it, and when I do, my Loldevoir effectively destroys half of the team. Seriously, anyone having trouble with the small amount of weather that we have down here should be running Weather Revenger Gardevoir.

Gurdurr is also still rofl-stomping everything he sees bar Psychic types. Even after we've hyped him so much I still manage to find players I can 6-0 that aren't prepared for him. He doesn't have to be afraid of Jynx anymore either, and believe me, he really appreciates that.

[Raseri]

With the ban of Jynx I've been thinking of ways to take advantage of the lack of her. Pokemon that were either beaten by Jynx with ease or forced to waste a moveslot to defeat her.

One idea I have right now is Mixed SD Samurott, or maybe even a Mixed LO set. Since Megahorn was mainly for beating Tangela and Jynx I feel Ice Beam might be a suitable replacement(similar to the Mixed DD Lapras I abused last month) I know this is only theorymon right now but I'll get back to you guys with results in a few days after I get some testing done.

Until then I have a few questions to ask the players of Neverused:

What pokemon do you think will increase in usage because of the banning of Jynx and why?

What pokemon will decrease in usage because of the Jynx ban and why?

What playstyles do you think will be the most dominant in this metagame?

I'll post my own answers to these questions soon, I'd love to see the community answer them though.

[ChaoticaMortis]

Originally Posted by Fat Raseri

With the ban of Jynx I've been thinking of ways to take advantage of the lack of her. Pokemon that were either beaten by Jynx with ease or forced to waste a moveslot to defeat her.

One idea I have right now is Mixed SD Samurott, or maybe even a Mixed LO set. Since Megahorn was mainly for beating Tangela and Jynx I feel Ice Beam might be a suitable replacement(similar to the Mixed DD Lapras I abused last month) I know this is only theorymon right now but I'll get back to you guys with results in a few days after I get some testing done.

Until then I have a few questions to ask the players of Neverused:

What pokemon do you think will increase in usage because of the banning of Jynx and why?

What pokemon will decrease in usage because of the Jynx ban and why?

What playstyles do you think will be the most dominant in this metagame?

I'll post my own answers to these questions soon, I'd love to see the community answer them though.

This is just me, but I think it's easier running a fully physical offensive set than sparing any EVs for SpAtk coverage moves. Megahorn hit more than just Jynx and Tangela, it hit every Psychic Pokemon in the tier that was stupid enough to stay in on Samurott. If Samurott uses Swords Dance he powers up Waterfall AND Megahorn to frightening levels (something Ice Beam wouldn't benefit from). I also don't like the idea of having a nature lower one of my defense stats just so I can be more effective with a mixed set.
However, I do see that Samurott has a better-than-average base 108 SpAtk (which is higher than his Atk stat actually, I didn't know that!), as well as a few good coverage options on the special end of the spectrum. I guess I have mixed feelings about your idea...

Onto the questions:

• What Pokemon do you think will increase in usage because of the banning of Jynx and why?
  Gorebyss is really only hindered by Ludicolo now, so it should naturally rise in usage a little bit. I'm also sure that many people are going to experiment with different Pokemon that they could use to fill the hole in their team left from the banning of Jynx (although I'm not sure what those could be at this point). Altaria and Jumpluff now have one less Ice Pokemon to worry about.
• What Pokemon will decrease in usage because of the Jynx ban and why?
  Metang (lol), Lapras, certain Choice Scarf Pokemon that were mostly used as specific checks to Jynx (Scarf Cinccino), Grumpig, Hypno, and the item Lum Berry. Most of these Pokemon either had better sets that they couldn't run because they were supposed to be countering Jynx (Scarf Cinccino) or were running Lum Berry instead of a better item just so they could come in on Lovely Kiss. Metang will no doubt now be used as a floating table for its trainers as they decide to use him for something he can actually succeed at.
• What playstyles do you think will be the most dominant in this metagame?
  Sun offense now has one less abuser of Rain to worry about, stall doesn't have to worry about being completely set up on, slept, and destroyed, and highly offensive teams don't have to worry about getting slept 'n' swept by LO + 3 Attacks Jynx (something which I heard was causing a lot of offensive teams problems).

[erisia]

Lol noobs.

But seriously, now that Jynx is gone I can't wait to try out Emboar over Magmortar. With paralysis support, a set of Fire Blast / Superpower / Grass Knot / HP Ice is ridiculously hard to wall, and Emboar can switch into most things more easily than Magmortar due to its extra resistances and neutrality to Stealth Rock. Resisting Sucker Punch is also a massive boon. I really expect Emboar to gain a lot of usage this month as people can start using it without opening themselves up to Jynx's lovely kiss.

As people are saying, Gorebyss has also become a little better now that its main offensive check is gone, so it'll be interesting to see whether it creeps up again. I also expect Cryogonal usage to rise even higher now that you aren't as likely to be running double-Ice types on a team. SpD Altaria's also gotten a little better now that Jynx isn't there to force it out. It should be interesting to say how everything changes usage wise by the start of June.

[Full2Half]

Posted origionally by Raseri:

One idea I have right now is Mixed SD Samurott, or maybe even a Mixed LO set.

I've been using a mixed LO samurott for about two weeks, and USE IT. Imo, this is one of the best water types in NU, aqua jet draws in tangela (as from full health they cannot be OHKOed by megahorn) so you can freely remove one of the most annoying pokes with an easy OHKO with ice beam. (I run aqua jet, hydro pump, ice beam, hp grass/megahorn with 200 atk 160 spA 148 spe and a rash nature)

[TropiOUs]

Originally Posted by Fat Full2Half

Posted origionally by Raseri:


I've been using a mixed LO samurott for about two weeks, and USE IT. Imo, this is one of the best water types in NU, aqua jet draws in tangela (as from full health they cannot be OHKOed by megahorn) so you can freely remove one of the most annoying pokes with an easy OHKO with ice beam. (I run aqua jet, hydro pump, ice beam, hp grass/megahorn with 200 atk 160 spA 148 spe and a rash nature)

Why would you use HP Grass when Samurott gets Grass Knot? you hit everything HP grass hits as hard or slightly harder and as for Megahorn while hitting Ludicolo and random defensive Psychic-types while they come in is great everything else it hits is already removed by Ice Beam and in the case of the Psychic-types while some of them are OHKOed(Grumpig and Gardevoir) they are still 2hkoed by Hydro Pump and a bit of prior damage,still last slot is mostly what you want to eliminate easier.

I have used this set for about the same time than Full2Halfshit, we even have the same spread, scary and I can agree with him that it is a decent set that works better if acting like the way more common SD Samurott before blowing the cover with its really powerful special attacks that eliminate pretty much everything that would take on an unboosted Samurott allowing it to clear the field for pokemon such as Gurdurr or Absol for an easier sweep by removing what they hate the most. And IIRC when coming up with the spread the 200 Attack evs were mostly for great chances of OHKOing Magmortar with Aqua Jet after Stealth Rock damage and LO recoil.

I am quite happy I was not the only one to try using that set.

[Raikaria]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

You're forgetting about Ludicolo, which absolutely wrecks Gorebyss if you run a bulky set, or run a rain set and outspeed + KO.

Also I forgot to mention it in the OP, but I'll edit in the suspect paragraphs soon.

Well, 'Byss could run something freaky like HP Flying or Bug.

However doing that would just leave it open to being walled by other water-types.

Anyway, I'm not too sure about Heat Rock being left open to be re-banned as of now, because the Jynx ban dosen't effect Sun. There was no metagame shift that would improve the power of Heat Rock. However, since Jynx's Dry Skin effected Rain, because of a Water-immunity, Damp Rock I agree with being left open.

I'm happy to see Jynx banned. One less thing to stop a set-up Altaria.

[Raseri]

HP Grass beats Gorebyss while Grass Knot fails to. 99% of the time grass knot would be superior but because byss iss a lightweight you have to rely on Hydro Pump to damage it.

@Raikaria
People did run hp bug byss last round :P and it was pretty good

[Django]

Yeah HP Bug was really cool to hit both Jynx and Ludicolo, but now that Jynx is gone it will likely be going back to HP Grass. I personally would still run it since Quagsire is a lot easier to switch into and beat than Ludicolo, but nearly no one runs defensive Ludicolo anyway. Or at least I have never seen it.

[CrashinBoomBang]

Well, with only one Pokemon that is hit hard by HP Bug, HP Grass seems way superior since it also hits other water types and not only Quagsire (Samurott, the rare Frillish, etc), which easily survive Hydro Pump unless it's boosted by Rain.

I'd personally prefer HP Grass this round.

[erisia]

I completely agree with the rise in popularity of mixed Samurott. Either a physically based mix of Waterfall / Megahorn / Aqua Jet / Ice Beam or a specially based mix of Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Aqua Jet / Megahorn could be effective at luring in and defeating certain opponents such as Tangela etc. A mixed set should probably be included in the analysis when it gets updated.

[MikeDecIsHere]

Mixed Samurott is probably going to be huge. I've heard a ton of people saying they wanted to use it.

I doubt Scarf Cincinno usage will decrease, since it outspeeds all of the Rain Abusers and demolishes them with its coverage.

I really want to try using bulky offense now. Now that Jynx isn't here to fuck with my boys, I think there are a few threatening Pokemon (Flame Charge Emboar, hell yeah) that can try to edge their way into the threat list.

[nyttyn]

Jynx ban whoo. Glad it's out of the picture even though I rarely fought it.

Samurott has been receiving a LOT of love lately. I have had zero problems with it, but eh. Waiting and seeing how big it's going to get. Say what you will about his coverage, base 70 speed sucks and you have to sacrifice EVs SOMEWHERE to pull of a mixed set.

I would like to nominate Sawsbuck, as both the Swords Dance and Band set hit way too damn hard for the speed tier Sawsbuck sits at. Having Chlorophyll just pushes it over the edge in my opinion. Plus it bypasses sucker punch.

Scarf Cincinno, I maintain, is a horrible waste of Cincinno's potential.

Neither Heat Rock nor Damp Rock have proven themselves to be overpowering, so I feel no need to comment further on them.

Y U NO EDIT IN PARAGRAPHS D:

[Endorfins]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

We're doing great on activity both on the forums and on the ladder. NU is consistently one of, if not THE most active non-OU metagame forum and I'd like to thank everyone for making that happen. Let's keep it up!

I love how I can almost always find NU battles at any time of the day, and I don't need to wait for 30 Minutes just to get one battle!

Now that Jynx is gone, I'm finding that the NU ladder is much more diverse. No longer do you have to constantly worry about getting slept / swept. Jynx was a really centralizing threat in the metagame. Now that it is gone, I've started to see an increase in Amoonguss and Vileplume, not only were they extremely weak to Jynx, they were also outclassed as Sleep spreaders by Jynx. Now they can really come into their own.

I'm also seeing alot of Arbok on the ladder, I've never been swept by one but they seem to be be pretty powerful. Has anyone else seen this trend?

[erisia]

As I stated in the Dark-types thread, I'm really interested to see what Shiftry can do in this metagame. It's a very effective anti-lead against Golem, as Rock Blast has a less than 8% chance to OHKO and you can just bypass Sucker Punch with your own Sucker Punch or Nature Power. Outside of this, it's also useful as a revenger against opposing Sun teams, and it can set up Nasty Plots as it scares away opponents such as Haunter and Kadabra that lack Substitute.

[tennisace]

So the suspect votes are now edited into the OP. Have fun reading them, yell at everyone but me, etc.

As an announcement, I'm going to be giving up my voting seat on the council, and I will be taking more of an advisory capacity (which means I'm going to do everything I've been doing like making discussions, leading suspect talks, deciding council members and deciding suspects), but I won't be voting. I'll be naming a new council member within the next day or so. Cheers!

[TLCJR4LIFE]

I've been playing a ton a rain, basically it can utterly decimate some teams, but other teams that carry checks to it and are prepared for it pretty much stomp it out. They can easily stall the rain out or use something like Trace Gardevoir to stifle your rain sweep completely.