Celebi (Revamp)

Celebi

[Overview]

<p>As with most legendary Pokemon, Celebi is blessed with great base stats all around. It also has a quite good and synergetic typing, an awesome ability that lets it act as a status absorber, and a phenomenal movepool. These traits allow Celebi to play many roles, depending on your team's needs. It can be a sturdy special wall that handles many prominent threats, such as Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Sheer Force Landorus, and Breloom, with a large repertoire of utility moves, consisting of Stealth Rock, U-turn, Perish Song, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, and Baton Pass. Or it can take the offensive route and utilize its good coverage, bulk, and resistances to set up with Nasty Plot, making it quite hard to wall. It can even use a Choice Scarf set to revenge kill troublesome threats, a Baton Pass set to assist your sweepers, or a tank set to combine the offensive and defensive roles.</p>

<p>However, the list of its flaws is as big as the list of its advantages. Its typing leaves it with a whopping seven weaknesses, one of them being a quadruple weakness to Bug moves. This means that it is prone to both Pursuit trapping and to U-turn, which is never a good thing with Genesect lurking just around the corner. As with most Grass-types, it struggles quite a bit against sun teams, and finally is hurt by the prevalence of Tornadus-T. But don't let those flaws disappoint you. With the right teammates Celebi can really shine, and prevent those pesky rain teams that are everywhere from overwhelming you.</p>

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Giga Drain / Psychic
move 2: Recover
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Perish Song / Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 232 SpD / 24 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With its good stats, typing, ability, and access to Recover, Celebi is able to wall a lot of threats, namely Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Sheer Force Landorus, Starmie, Rotom-W, Politoed, Calm Mind Jirachi, and Calm Mind Latias. Giga Drain is the standard STAB move that gives Celebi a bit of recovery, and allows it to hit the Water-types it walls for super effective damage. Psychic is the other STAB move that Celebi can use instead of Giga Drain, and has its own unique advantages. Psychic lets Celebi deal better with Pokemon such as Thundurus-T, Breloom, Tentacruel, Conkeldurr, and Amoonguss, while still hitting some targets of Giga Drain for super effective damage, namely Keldeo and Terrakion. However, when using Psychic, Celebi has a harder time against Water-type Pokemon that can hit it hard, such as Life Orb Starmie and Choice Specs Politoed, because it cannot damage them quickly enough and may succumb to a critical hit or a freeze. So if dealing with Water-types more reliably is of utmost importance, then use Giga Drain, otherwise you are better of with Psychic, which is useful against a wider array of threats. Recover is used for reliable recovery, and combined with Natural Cure, makes Celebi very difficult to take down. U-turn is a good move for any defensive Pokemon, especially Celebi, allowing it to be an excellent pivot and to scout for any Pokemon looking to kill Celebi with Pursuit, such as Tyranitar and Scizor. In the last slot there are three utility moves that can be used. Perish Song is a rare and useful move with shallow distribution and allows Celebi to counter many set up sweepers, such as Calm Mind Jirachi, Calm Mind Keldeo, Substitute Dragon Dance Dragonite, Calm Mind Latias, and Calm Mind Reuniclus, essentially acting as a phasing move. It also stops Baton Pass chains cold, and gives a win condition if your opponent is left with one Pokemon. Perish Song also synergizes well with U-turn, as when the opponent is forced to switch out, in the last turn of Perish Song, you can easily scout the switch-in with U-turn, gaining the upper hand. Thunder Wave is another excellent move that helps Celebi deal with a multitude of Pokemon. Genesect and Tornadus-T, which are everywhere, love to switch into Celebi, and Thunder Wave renders them useless. Same goes for Latios, Latias, Hydreigon, Kyurem, Kyurem-B, and Dragonite. Finally, Stealth Rock is always an option, and Celebi is one of the most reliable users of the move and finds plenty of opportunities to set it up, but many Pokemon learn this move, and you should better utilize moves that are semi-exclusive to Celebi, or help Celebi more with its role.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The Speed EVs are used to outrun maximum Speed Timid Magnezone, and the rest are put into HP and Special Defense to maximize special bulk. Hidden Power Fire can be used in the last slot to hit Scizor, Genesect, Forretress, and Ferrothorn hard. Watch out though, as Hidden Power Fire can't OHKO Scizor, so you'll need some damage on it beforehand; two switches into Stealth Rock will be enough. Also beware that Hidden Power Fire's usefulness is seriously hurt by the prevalence of rain teams. Hidden Power Ice is another viable choice for Celebi to hit Dragon-types, Thundurus-T, Gliscor, and both formes of Landorus for super effective damage, but Psychic is usually better for this role, as it has almost the same power as a super effective Hidden Power Ice. The only case where Hidden Power Ice is significantly stronger is against Pokemon 4x weak to it, or against Pokemon resistant to Psychic, meaning Latios, Latias, Hydreigon, Landorus, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Dragonite, Salamence, and Garchomp. Still, most of those targets are dealt with better by Thunder Wave or U-turn. Ultimately, Hidden Power Ice should be used only if not running Psychic, as Thunder Wave works way better with Psychic than Hidden Power Ice for the aforementioned reasons. Heal Bell lets Celebi act as a cleric, giving it yet another way to support its team. Baton Pass is an alternative to U-turn if you want to escape from slower Pursuit users, mainly Scizor and Tyranitar, but sometimes the extra damage from U-turn will be missed, and Baton Pass doesn't pair well with Perish Song, since you have to switch manually. A spread of 252 HP / 192 SpD / 64 Spe with a Calm nature can be used to outspeed Timid Gothitelle before it has a chance to hurt you with a Choice Specs-boosted Signal Beam or cripple you with Trick, and escape with U-turn. It also enables Celebi to outspeed Jolly Scizor so that it can either dent it with Hidden Power Fire or get out safely with U-turn. Celebi can also run a defensive set geared more towards Defense to help your team with threats such as Dragonite, Terrakion, Salamence, Conkeldurr, and to tank Pursuits from Scizor and Tyranitar more easily. Finally, a Sassy nature can be used in order for U-turn to pack a bit more of a punch. In this case, move the Speed EVs in whatever defensive stat benefits you the most.</p>

<p>Heatran is possibly the best Celebi partner out there as it has almost flawless defensive synergy with it, with Rock being the only type that the two don't resist together, and also beats many Pokemon that can set up on Celebi or OHKO it, such as Scizor, Forretress, Genesect, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory, as well as providing a check for Tornadus-T. Forretress works well with Celebi too, as it can set up on most Steel-types that threaten Celebi and get rid of their hazards. Rotom-W works amazingly with Celebi because it covers Celebi's Ice, Fire, and most importantly Flying weaknesses, meaning that it is a decent counter against Tornadus-T, Genesect, and Heatran, three of Celebi's arch enemies. Rotom-W can also deal with most Steel-types that Celebi attracts by either burning them or outright killing them. Lastly, the two together form a little VoltTurn core. Tentacruel is an interesting partner in rain, providing a reliable switch-in to Scizor and Genesect, having good defensive synergy with Celebi, and getting rid of hazards that Steel-types love to set up against Celebi. Choice Scarf Tyranitar is another good partner with Celebi as the latter attracts Latios, Latias, Espeon, and Gengar for the first to trap. Choice Scarf Tyranitar also handles any Dragon-type that would like to switch into Celebi, as well as other offensive threats, such as Volcarona and Lucario, provided Celebi brings him in safely with U-turn. Gliscor can handle or at least check any physical Dragon-type, Terrakion, Scizor, specially defensive Heatran, and Landorus-T, all of which trouble Celebi, making it another good teammate. Gastrodon can check both Tornadus-T and Genesect, while also handling most Fire-types that threaten Celebi decently.</p>

[SET]
name: Offensive
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Earth Power / Psychic / Hidden Power Fire
move 3: Thunder Wave / U-turn
move 4: Recover
nature: Modest
item : Life Orb / Leftovers
evs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set takes advantage of Celebi's good bulk and Special Attack, transforming it into an offensive tank. While at first glance it may seem inferior to Latias in the tank role, which boasts better typing, Speed, and coverage, Celebi is quite different due to its Grass STAB, Natural Cure, better physical bulk, ability to utilize Thunder Wave to a much greater extend than Latias, U-turn, Earth Power, and the ability to beat the most common Pursuit users, Tyranitar and Scizor. Leaf Storm is the primary move of the set and packs a lot of power due to the offensive investment, Life Orb, and STAB. The Special Attack drop might seem offsetting, as it makes Celebi set-up bait for a host of threats, but fits very well with this set's hit and run nature. Earth Power is used for coverage against Steel- and Fire-types, such as Heatran, Jirachi, and Ninetales, while hitting many Pokemon that resist Leaf Storm, such as Scizor, Genesect, Forretress, and Volcarona for neutral damage. Psychic provides Celebi with a reliable STAB move to work with, while still covering some Pokemon that would want to switch into Leaf Storm; for example, Naive Tornadus-T faces a 68.75% chance to get OHKOed after Stealth Rock if it comes into Psychic. Some other targets of Psychic are Dragonite, Salamence, Breloom, and Thundurus-T (the latter two in particular are important as you can switch into them with little worry). Hidden Power Fire gives Celebi coverage against Steel- and Grass-types, the most important being Genesect, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Breloom, and Forretress. In the next slot an utility move of your choice is chosen, allowing Celebi to act as a great team player. Thunder Wave works amazingly on Celebi, as no Ground-type would want to switch into it, almost making sure that something is going to get paralyzed. Thunder Wave also incapacitates some of the most common switch-ins to Celebi, namely Genesect, Tornadus-T, Latios, Salamence, and Dragonite. However, U-turn makes Celebi's checks and counters take damage from entry hazards and U-turn itself, while getting forced out by your switch-in. U-turn also deals pretty good damage to some Pokemon weak to it, such as Tyranitar, Latios, Latias, and Celebi, and helps mitigate the Special Attack drops caused by Leaf Storm. Another small benefit of U-turn is that it prevents Celebi from getting trapped by Choice Scarf-less Gothitelle and Wobbuffet, which can be important sometimes. Recover rounds off the set and enables Celebi to last throughout the match, as entry hazards and Life Orb recoil would take their toll pretty quickly on Celebi otherwise.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Maximum Special Attack and a Modest nature allow Celebi to hit as hard as possible, while the Speed EVs enable it to outspeed everything up to maximum Speed Jolly Mamoswine. The rest of the EVs are thrown into HP for bulk. Life Orb gives Celebi some needed power, as base 100 Special Attack does not exactly make for a powerhouse, and makes Leaf Storm a force to be reckoned with if the opponent doesn't resist it; for example, it OHKOes 4 HP Garchomp 56.25% of the time after Stealth Rock, one of the most bulky offensive Pokemon in OU. On the other hand, Leftovers enhances Celebi's ability to take hits, and makes Celebi spend less time using Recover. Except for Leaf Storm and Recover, all the other slots are pretty flexible, so mix and match them depending on your team. If you decide to use two coverage moves, then the best combo is Psychic and Hidden Power Fire, to deal with most of Celebi's switch-ins, namely Genesect, Tornadus-T, Ferrothorn, Scizor, and some Dragon-types. Giga Drain is a more reliable STAB move, and if using it, you can forgo Recover for an extra coverage move. However, the power drop is huge, as Leaf Storm has almost double the Base Power of Giga Drain, so you won't be able to dent most Pokemon that don't resist Grass like you could with Leaf Storm. Hidden Power Ice can be used to OHKO Dragonite (after Stealth Rock), Garchomp, Salamence, Gliscor, and both formes of Landorus, but Celebi already hits pretty hard, if not OHKOing, most of those Pokemon with Leaf Storm and Psychic. A more defensive spread of 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 with a Modest nature can be used, as Celebi doesn't miss the extra Speed in a lot of situations. With that spread it is advised to use Thunder Wave to help Celebi outspeed faster foes. You can also use a spread with 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe and a Timid nature to Speed tie with neutral natured base 100s, as well as outspeed maximum Speed Timid Deoxys-D.</p>

<p>Celebi enjoys partners that can deal with the Pokemon that its coverage moves don't cover, Chansey and Blissey, as well as any faster Pokemon that can revenge kill it. Such Pokemon are usually Dragon-types, Steel-types, and faster Pokemon with super effective moves such as Gengar, Alakazam, and Tornadus-T. Specially defensive Celebi also walls this set if it lacks U-turn. Thus, Choice Scarf Genesect makes for a great all around partner, especially if Celebi has Earth Power, despite the shared Fire weakness, as it can revenge kill almost every Pokemon that threatens Celebi, while Celebi can often lure and eliminate Heatran, clearing the way for Genesect. Rotom-W is another great teammate that has excellent defensive synergy with Celebi, handling many Pokemon that threaten Celebi, such as Tornadus-T, Heatran, and Genesect, and forming a VoltTurn core. Heatran has flawless defensive synergy with Celebi, with only Rock-type moves not being resisted by those two, and takes care of Dragon-types to an extent, while countering Genesect and most Volcarona; Heatran also provides Stealth Rock which helps Celebi to get certain OHKOs and 2HKOs. If using Celebi on an offensive team, Deoxys-D is a good partner, as it can set-up both hazards to help Celebi punch holes in the opposing team. Celebi also beats every single Rapid Spin user in OU, which is something that Deoxys-D appreciates. Finally, Choice Scarf Terrakion is capable of revenge killing most of the Pokemon that scare Celebi out, while being able to switch in directly against some of them, such as Volcarona, Heatran, and Genesect, due to the good defensive synergy between Celebi and Terrakion, and is able to OHKO Blissey and dent Chansey, making it a valuable partner.</p>

[SET]
name: Nasty Plot
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Psychic / Recover / Hidden Power Ice
nature: Timid
item : Leftovers / Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Nasty Plot Celebi struggles in a metagame where Genesect and Tornadus-T dominate, but can still prove its worth if you play it to its strengths. Nasty Plot Celebi can take advantage of the many free switches that it gets against Pokemon such as Keldeo, Politoed, Rotom-W, and Sheer Force Landorus by either setting up with Nasty Plot or hitting hard the switch-in with the good neutral coverage provided by three attacking moves. Unlike the specially defensive set, this set has a lot of offensive pressure, and unlike the offensive set, this set has better coverage, Speed, and power (after a Nasty Plot). Without Nasty Plot it wouldn't be able to sweep because Steel-types, such as Jirachi and Scizor, could take a hit and then cripple back, while at +2 they are OHKOed. Giga Drain is a solid STAB move which also restores Celebi's health, extending its sweep further. Earth Power mainly takes care of Heatran and Jirachi, while having a chance to OHKO Scizor and Forretress with Stealth Rock after a boost. Hidden Power Fire is used to get past most Steel- and Grass-types such as Scizor, Genesect, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory. Psychic is a strong STAB move that allows Celebi to hit Dragonite, Salamence, Tornadus-T, and Thundurus-T for neutral damage, while also OHKOing Gengar and Breloom, making it the best move for the last slot. Recover helps Celebi to survive even longer and possibly enables it to try to sweep more than once. Lastly, Hidden Power Ice is able to OHKO Dragonite and Salamence without a boost, while hitting Latios, Latias, Hydreigon, Tornadus-T, and Thundrus-T hard, but is usually outclassed by Psychic.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A bulkier spread can be used, with 220 HP / 180 SpA / 96 Spe and a Modest nature, where the Speed EVs allow Celebi to outspeed maximum Speed Adamant Dragonite; with this spread Celebi has an easier time switching in and gets more set-up opportunities, but is then outsped by many offensive Pokemon that it could beat otherwise, such as Genesect, Heatran, and Ninetales. No matter what three attacking moves Celebi runs, it will always be walled by something, so keep that in mind. Baton Pass can be used to let Celebi pass the boost to a teammate when it is walled, acting as both a sweeper and a supporter. Leaf Storm is an option over Giga Drain for the immediate power, but you will find that it doesn't work so well with Nasty Plot, and often contrast with this set's purpose.</p>

<p>Choice Scarf Scizor and Choice Scarf Terrakion work very good alongside Celebi, as they are able to handle most Pokemon that wall it while also revenge killing the Pokemon that can set-up on it or outright OHKO it. Tentacruel has good defensive synergy with Celebi while also providing Rapid Spin support and handling many Pokemon that Celebi fears, such as Scizor and Skarmory, if Celebi isn't running Hidden Power Fire. Choice Scarf Tyranitar can trap problematic Pokemon for Celebi, such as Gengar, Latios, and Latias, making it easier for Celebi to sweep. Specially defensive Jirachi makes for a good partner, as it can pass Wishes to Celebi, allowing it to try and sweep more than once, and checks many Pokemon that Celebi fears, namely Tornadus-T, Gengar, Genesect, Latios, and Latias.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
move 3: Earth Power / Psychic
move 4: U-turn / Trick
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Celebi is a decent user of Choice Scarf due to its good Speed, bulk, and utility moves, namely U-turn and Trick. Leaf Storm is Celebi's main STAB move to dent Pokemon neutral or weak to it such as Keldeo, Terrakion, and Landorus. Hidden Power Ice is used mainly for the Dragon- and Flying-types that Celebi can outspeed and OHKO with it, while Hidden Power Fire deals with any Steel-type except Heatran; Choice Scarf Celebi with Hidden Power Fire also makes for a good Choice Scarf Genesect lure, as it can outspeed and OHKO the alien bug that will attempt to U-turn out. Earth Power handles Heatran, Lucario, Jirachi, Magnezone, and Infernape, and generally offers good neutral coverage with the other moves, while Psychic provides Celebi with a secondary STAB move that hits certain Pokemon such as Gengar and Breloom hard. Lasty, U-turn allows Celebi to scout while keeping momentum, while Trick cripples walls such as Blissey, Chansey, and Jirachi.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A Modest nature can be used for more power, but Celebi will fail to Speed tie with +1 Speed base 100s and positive natured Genesect so keep this in mind. Giga Drain is an alternative to Leaf Storm but has almost half its power, which leaves Celebi unable to kill anything that isn't weak to it. Healing Wish can be used in the last slot to give a second life to a teammate.</p>

<p>Choice Scarf Celebi appreciates entry hazard support, especially Stealth Rock, to get a lot of OHKO-2HKOes, so Heatran, Terrakion, and Forretress are all fine partners. Also due to the hit and run nature of most Choice Scarf users, especially one with U-turn, Rapid Spin support is beneficial. Starmie, Forretress, and Tentacruel are capable of filling this role and have decent synergy with Celebi. Finally, Terrakion and Heatran are both great teammates for Celebi, as they can switch easily against many of the Pokemon that wall Celebi, such as Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Genesect, and Volcarona, and threaten them with their STAB moves.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Grass Knot can be used instead of Giga Drain and Leaf Storm on the specially defensive and offensive sets respectively. Grass Knot hits most of the Pokemon in OU that are neutral to Grass moves for good damage, and doesn't drop your special attack, but it has pitiful power against Rotom-W. This is a big downfall, as countering Rotom-W is one of Celebi's main jobs. Grass Knot also hits Keldeo and Politoed for less damage than Giga Drain, limiting its usefulness even further. However, Grass Knot has some notable advantages, such as OHKOing Terrakion, and 2HKOing most Tyranitar, Gyarados, Jellicent, and Hippowdon after Stealth Rock, making Celebi more difficult to use as setup bait. Celebi can use a physical set with Swords Dance, but its physical movepool is limited, as the only viable physical moves it has are Seed Bomb, Zen Headbutt, U-turn, and Sucker Punch, making it struggle for coverage. As most Grass-types, Celebi can use a SubSeed set to annoy the opponent, but with the abundance of Pokemon that don't care about this strategy, such as Gliscor, Ferrothorn, Tornadus-T, Genesect, and Scizor, this set will only waste Celebi's potential most of the time. Celebi has access to Calm Mind to take advantage of its already good special bulk and simultaneously raise its Special Attack, but many dominant Pokemon can OHKO Celebi even with a Calm Mind boost, such as Tornadus-T and Genesect, so it's usually not worth it. Celebi gets Reflect, Light Screen, and Healing Wish, all good qualities for a dual screen set. It also has the bulk, the resistances, and reliable recovery, enabling it to switch in multiple times and last throughout the game, to set up screens, and bring a teammate in safely and fully healed with Healing Wish. However, its 4x weakness to U-turn and its other weaknesses to common attacking types make it unappealing for this role, as it an be OHKOed by many Pokemon before it has the chance to set up. Finally, Trick Room can be used on any non-Choice Celebi to support a dedicated Trick Room team, but its high speed and the limited viability of such teams usually prevent this move from being more than a mediocre choice.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>When looking to check or counter Celebi the first way that comes to mind is to capitalize on its many weaknesses. Pokemon that can OHKO it or severely dent it, and can switch in safely, are generally a very good way to deal with Celebi. Faster Pokemon with STAB super effective moves, such as Tornadus-T, Gengar, Volcarona, Choice Scarf Heracross, Abomasnow, and Ninetales, all destroy Celebi, but have to be wary of Thunder Wave, Psychic, Earth Power, and Hidden Power Fire in Abomasnow's case. Dragon-types, such as Kyurem, Kyurem-B, Salamence, Dragonite, Latios, and Hydreigon, handle Celebi pretty well, as long as they avoid Psychic, Thunder Wave, and U-turn on the switch. Lastly, Steel-types, such as Heatran, Scizor, and Genesect, are proficient at handling Celebi, but have to beware of Earth Power, Hidden Power Fire, and Thunder Wave, respectively.</p>

<p>Then we have the Pokemon that usually wall Celebi and can't outright OHKO it, but can set-up on it, making it a liability for its team. Such Pokemon are Deoxys-D, Forretress, Venusaur, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Latias, Lucario, Reuniclus, and Thundurus-T. Celebi can threaten all of them though, with the right move. Forretress, Skarmory, and Lucario fear Hidden Power Fire, Latias and Reuniclus are shut down by Perish Song, Latias, Lucario, and Deoxys-D dislike Thunder Wave, Lucario and Thundurus-T are hit hard by Psychic, and Lucario hates Earth Power.</p>

<p>Another public enemy for Celebi are sun teams in general, which usually pack Fire-type moves on at least half of their members, as well as Fire-type Pokemon that can at worst 2HKO Celebi. Celebi also cannot hurt many of the Pokemon that are commonly found on sun teams such as Ninetales, Volcarona, Venusaur, and Victini.</p>

<p>Finally, there are the Pokemon that can revenge kill Celebi, but can't switch into it really well. Such Pokemon are U-turn Landorus, Terrakion with X-Scissor, Tyranitar with Pursuit, Mamoswine, Garchomp, and AcroBat Gliscor. Generally, any Pokemon that can outspeed Celebi and hit it with a Bug move, or a super effective STAB move is a good revenge killer.</p>

Removed Specs from the choice set and renamed it to Scarf. Should i put Specs to OO or no? Also renamed the first set to Specially Defensive instead of just Defensive.

Anyway this will be written in the next 10 days.

Can i ask why are HP Fire and HP Ice slashed in the last slot of the specially defensive set? Celebi's main use is to stop rain threats and rain teams in general, which are everywhere. And we are giving it HP Fire? Scizor has fallen a lot in usage, and will continue to do so, as long as Genesect exists, so there goes the main reason to use HP Fire on Celebi. Yeah you can catch Genesect with it on the switch, but T-Wave does this too (and is better than HP Fire in rain) and a lot more. Yeah Forretress and Ferrothorn exist, but as i said Rain being everywhere doesn't really help, and Celebi already has U-turn so that you can quickly force them out or even trap and kill them with Magnezone / Gothitelle.

Similarly what are you hitting with HP Ice? Lati@s and Hydreigon take lol damage from HP Ice, and are dealt way better with T-Wave. Same as Dnite with MS active (most Dnite attempt to set-up after SR is off the field), HP Ice does shit, and you are better of using Perish Song to put it on a timer, or using U-turn to break MS and bring in your revenge killer safely. So ok it prevents Mence from setting up on you, which btw T-Wave accomplishes too as Lum Berry is not so common on DD Mence, and Scarf Mence just gets screwed by T-Wave. And Kyurem/Kyurem-B set-up on Celebi all day if it uses HP Fire, while if it had T-Wave it could at least prevent them from coming in nilly-willy... Tbh Hidden Power's Ice only use is hitting Thundurus-T and Garchomp, and he should be dealing only with the first one anyway.

So yeah the last slot should really be changed to Perish Song / T-Wave / Stealth Rock. T-Wave is obviously a very good move on Celebi, and i would even go as far as to say that it should be slashed first if it wasn't for the fact that Perish Song is such a rare move. Everyone brings their Genesect and Tornadus-T on Celebi so carefree, that they are begging to get paralyzed by T-Wave. Not to mention Lati@s. It is JUST SO GOOD. And Stealth Rock is very good too, as Celebi is one of the most reliable users of it, alongside Hippowdon and Heatran, due to awesome bulk and Recover. But truth to be told, Celebi has huge 4 MSS so i could understand if SR was neglected to AC.

This is all...

EDIT: Oh and something else... Psychic should be slashed with Giga Drain. You don't really need Giga Drain to beat most Water-types. Bulky and Scarf Politoed can be beaten slowly with Psychic and same with Rotom-W. With Psychic you can also actually beat Tentacruel in rain. Starmie, Gastrodon, and Specs Politoed become more difficult to handle, but you wall them anyway, and you can beat Starmie and Toed, so you only really miss out on Gastrodon. The only Ground types that Giga Drain hits harder than Psychic are Hippowdon, Mamoswine, Gastrodon and Donphan. Mamo outspeeds and OHKOes Celebi so it doesn't matter, most Hippo are SpD and wouldn't stay in anyway, while also having reliable recovery, and Gastrodon is already mentioned, so only Donphan is left. Finally about Rock types, you only lose on Tyranitar, against which you are better of using U-turn on the switch anyway. Psychic allows Celebi to 2HKO Thundurus-T after SR and OHKO offensive Breloom, which are pretty damn important, hit harder Terrakion and Keldeo, usually OHKO Infernape, 2HKO Conkeldurr, OHKO Gengar and hit Tentacruel very hard. The ability to kill water types quicker and more reliable with Giga Drain, as well as the healing, are not to be take lightly, and this is why Giga Drain will be the first slash, but Psychic has many advantages as well and really deserves to be slashed.

tl;dr

HP Fire + HP Ice from main moves to AC
T-Wave + SR from AC to last slot after Perish Song
Psychic gets slashed with Giga Drain
(all for the SpD set)

EDIT 2: I was also thinking about adding an AC spread with 252 Speed (the actual stat) to outspeed and U-turn out of Specs Gothitelle, the only variant that can hurt Celebi, as well as making sure you can U-turn out of any Scizor without fear of it outspeeding and killing you. Thoughts?

I would assume that the Hidden Powers are mainly for making Celebi a great VolTurn check, since it counters all Rotom-W (unless they're running Signal Beam for whatever reason) and can easily predict the switch to hit Genesect / Scizor or Landorus / Lando-T... That said, I do agree that Thunder Wave already severely punishes Genesect (and that alone can win you a game) while also having more utility.

After talking with Pocket and PK, decided to add the changes, which were HP Ice + HP Fire to AC, T-Wave and SR from AC to the main set as slashes in the last set, Psychic from AC to slash in the first slot, and a mention of enough speed to outrin Timid Specs Goth and Jolly Scizor in AC.

When writing the AC of the SpD set i changed a few things. I removed Skarmory as a partner, as from my experience they don't have any notable advantages together. I also added Rotom-W as a partner, which is one of the best Celebi partners right now, due to Torn-T and Genesect being everywhere.

Also should the NP set really be second in order? Genesect and Tornadus-T are everywhere, and this doesn't help Celebi's case at all. The best way i managed to use NP Celebi is with a Tanga Berry and Baton Pass in order to pass the boost to a partner such as Keldeo after Genesect fails to kill me with U-turn. The offensive set is much more viable, and T-Wave should really get a bigger mention than the last slash in the last slot. As i have said a million times T-Wave is amazing on Celebi, as it beats its most common switch-ins, Torn-T, Genesect, and Dragon-types. So it should be slashed in the third slot too, if not be the first slash.

Opinions?

U-turn should at best be slashed with another move on the specially defensive set. That Celebi is often used as defensive and stall teams that don't exactly need that momentum that bad. I know personally, I would never use u-turn on celebi, heck Id rather use baton pass if I had to, to escape pursuits.

Also I feel giga drain should be the mandatory main stab, but I guess that is debatable. Overall I feel the moveset should look something like this:

-Giga Drain (/ Psychic maybe?)
-Recover
-U-turn / Psychic / Stealth Rock
-Perish Song / Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave

these is some slash shit-itis probably in the last 2 slots to be discussed and fixed up, still, u-turn should not be the only option

Scarfwynaut i have thought of this before too...

I think that if the meta was more friendly towards stall teams, then U-turn should definitely be slashed with something else. But stall is hard to use and build right now, more than ever, and so SpD Celebi ends up getting used in balanced teams, which appreciate U-turn a lot to bring on their big guns, as Celebi is one of the best pivots in the game. The meta is so fast that U-turn is really important imo. That doesn't mean that Celebi must absolutely use it, so will make a mention in AC that in the last two slots you can really use any combination that you like. What do you think?

If U-turn is primarily used for momentum why not slash Baton Pass in order to escape Pursuit users (read Tyranitar and Scizor) more reliably? Unless the chip damage is that important, I would be more inclined to using Baton Pass to gain momentum (in addition I guess it could be used on a tiny quick pass chain?). TBH I think that U-turn should not remain in its own exclusive slot since it really compromises your ability to stop threats. With only Giga Drain, how will this Celebi more effectively come in on Breloom (vice versa for bulky waters and Psychic)?

Though it would have to be second slash, don't want to pass Perish Song off xD.

I said the same thing in the first Celebi update thread that Ojama made, and this was the respone i got from EO Mortus: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4395549&postcount=7

Also i guess that breaking Dragonite's MS on the switch is another good reason, as well as hitting Ttar for good damage, which helps in weather wars. Finally Baton Pass doesn't go well with Perish Song, which is the first slash in the last slot, and forces you to lose a mon if a Shadow Tag mon comes in no matter what.

After popular demand, the NP and the offensive sets have changed positions. Now there is something else important that needs to be discussed... The moves of the offensive set. I am not happy at all with seeing T-Wave as the last slash in the last slot, as it is one of the best moves Celebi can use to hurt its usual counter right now. Imo this is how the set should look like:

move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Earth Power / Psychic / Hidden Power Fire
move 3: Thunder Wave / U-turn
move 4: Recover

Leaf Storm is a given and doesn't want a lot of explaining. Celebi's coverage moves are listed second, just because, they could as easily go in the third slot too. In the third slot T-Wave and U-turn go together, because offensive Celebi needs to use one of those two moves, in order to be able to do something against its counters. T-Wave obviously fucks up Genesect, Torn-T, Lati@s, and any dragon in general, while U-turn hits Lati@s for good damage, and gains momentum against anything else that would wall Celebi. This way Celebi isn't Genesect and Torn-T bait the instance it comes in. In the last slot Recover is alone, as i believe it is really a must.

Opinions?

Added a lengthy text talking about Celebi's pros over Latias as a tank (speaking about the offensive set, meaning the second), which i felt was necessary as many players think Latias outclasses Celebi in this role.

Changed many things in the offensive set, and after discussion with some QC members, the moveset was changed. I changed the main spread and provided reasons for doing so, removed SR from AC, as offensive Celebi simply can't fit it and added the speedy spread in AC. I will maybe add/remove some pokes from teammates and counter in the AC, when i have the time to look at the current ones more thoroughly...

I can't justify a specially defensive set, way too many weaknesses to common attacks. Resists thunderbolt and surf, sure great. Weak to Fire, Ice, Dark, and Ghost; not to mention x4 weakness to bug and even a weakness to flying I just cant see it working well.

Unless you're going for a calm mind set I don't see specially defensive being a good idea :/

Removed SR and Perish Song from OO, as they are already in the SpD set, the only set they can fit in anyway.

The NP set is written. The EV spread that is mentioned in the AC din't have any nature, so i assumed it was a Modest one, as with those Speed evs Celebi outspeeds max Speed Adamant Dnite.

EDIT: This is finally ready for GP checks! Notice that the checks and counters scetion is a bit short. This doesn't mean that i haven't included everything i should, just that i didn't describe things that i think are unecessary. For example when listing Heatran as a coutner to Earth Power-less elebi, i didn't mention how it can OHKO back with Fire Blast, because this is obvious. However if you find that it is too short, i can flesh it out a bit more, so no worries.

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OK alexwolf I'm going to give you the same speech I gave ShinyAzelf a long time ago:

I realize that English may not be your first language, but can you promise me that when making these GP changes, that you really try to understand why I'm making the changes I am, and not just doing them blindly. If you want to become a better writer, you have to understand why the GPers are making the changes they are. I honestly haven't seen any improvement in your writing skills in the past 2 months which is why I'm saying this.

So, for you're next analysis (and this one as well), when it's GP checked, I want you to really study and ask questions, if you have any, as to why the changes are the way the are; as opposed to just blindly making the changes.

Click to expand...

There are far too many repetitive mistakes (mostly dealing with commas) I've seen in your analyses which is why I'm saying this, and has led me to believe that you're not really engaging with the changes. Either that or you're really not trying when writing, which is a different issue.

The information and structure of the analysis is good, and thank you for tackling such a long analysis. But you really need to take to heart these changes so it isn't so tough on us GPers to get your stuff onsite.

[gp]1/2[/gp]

You are totally right Oglemi, i am a sloppy bastard. After implementing your check i realized what you meant. Many serial commas were missing, a lot of unnecessary commas were put, and there was a bit of informal wording and some grammar mistakes too (did one part of the analysis on a pc with no spell checker that's why). So it was sloppy writing from me, and again sorry, i will try to more concentrated from now on!

I have two questions. I had the phrase ''Base Stats'' with capital letters, and you removed them, while in the phrase ''Base Power'' you didn't. Mistake or is it indeed this way?

Also in the first paragraph of the Set Comments of the NP set. You removed the description of Nasty Plot, which may have been a bit repetitive, but wasn't really mentioned before. In the first sentence i was talking about NP Celebi's use as a set, not yet having described the move's purpose. So basically i mentioned the move's use indirectly, and i didn't know if this was enough, so i added a more direct explanation too. Is it ok to leave the move without a direct explanation?

So GP check implemented, thx a lot for you effort, (and again sry for the sloppiness) one more to go!

Base Power is an actual in-game term, while base stats isn't.


Something that GP is pushing for is not stating the obvious all the time. Obviously, any Pokemon can theoretically sweep once its counters are gone, so there is no reason to write an entire sentence just to say that. Good work though.
[gp]2/2[/gp]

alexwolf said:

I have two questions. I had the phrase ''Base Stats'' with capital letters, and you removed them, while in the phrase ''Base Power'' you didn't. Mistake or is it indeed this way?

Click to expand...

For questions like this, it's always a good idea to look at the Spelling and Grammar Standards thread in the future!

Thx a lot guys! This is done!

I'm pleasantly surprised at how well this turned out. Keep up the good work ok?