|Jan 14th, 2013, 11:54:56 PM||#1|
Join Date: Feb 2008
The pressure of offensive versatility.
This team all started with taking a look at the current metagame, recognizing what has been giving me issues with all of my prior teams, and ultimately putting together something well rounded and versatile. Trial and error has led me to my conclusion that Fighting, Fire and Psychic breakdown the underlying layer of the metagame with the overabundance of Steel being used to counter the overabundance of Dragons...
The core of this team is designed to blast through the game's common tanks which allow my own Dragons to clean up the mess. I believed that Fighting type moves provide the most intimidating coverage and when backed up with hidden power Fire on Latias and Gengar, I've noticed it was a struggle for many teams to defend against an onslaught of Fire/Fighting/Psychic attacks.
My initial theory was to create something that kept weather as a non-factor while constantly keeping my opponent guessing and under pressure (basically a dream team on paper when everything gets rolling). That idea evolved into finding switching synergy among bulky, heavy hitters that all had the ability to counter, set up, revenge, force a switch, sweep or break walls in any given situation.
Over the course of this team's laddering I'd find myself either demolishing teams or hanging by my teeth; rarely in between. By match ups alone though, it boils down to pointing out to which sacrifice will set up the sweep. Very simple and surprisingly effective. I found myself easily beating teams in the 1900's with 2 or 3 of my pokemon still at high health. Now is this a testament to my ability as a player or the potency of my team? Not a chance. But what that does mean to me is that the highest tiered level of play has become susceptible to versatile sweeping and maybe this can evolve into something better.
Team Building Process
@ Focus Sash
64 Atk / 192 Spd / 252 SpA
Blaze | Naive
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock
Infernape has been widely overlooked in BW because how prevalent rain has become, as well as there being more choices in the speedy fighting department. However, Ferrothorn has been a thorn in my side since I first picked up this gen and wanted to be able to threaten it immediately at any given chance because of how devastating it can be if it starts doing its thing. Infernape was the obvious choice for its ability to force it out; its frailty was very discouraging however.
Infernape isn't the same force as it was in DPP, so my initial expectations were to throw on a Focus Sash and use it as a suicide scout that was able to keep Ferrothorn from doing much harm. It does that job very well. It scares out Tyranitar immediately and at least keeps Ninetales from doing too much. Tyranitar is annoying because it automatically breaks my sash, but it's usually not too much to worry about.
Although, Infernape does a good enough job handling weather and most of the time my opponent is going to start with and sacrifice their weather inducer anyway because I don't have weather myself. it beats specs Politoad and (almost) beats toxic stall ones. Thanks to team preview, Infernape essentially becomes expendable if I only need to set up rocks or endeavor a Rotom. If I need to hang on to him I have that option, but it generally involves losing or crippling Gengar in the process, which isn't much of an issue though.
Outside of the weather leads, stuff like Landorus either get themselves endeavored or reveal their scarf. Sableye will always taunt which gives me a free switch to Gengar. Rotom gets endeavored... basically everything gets endeavored which makes it difficult to take down Infernape without losing something yourself.
@ Choice Specs
252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Levitate | Modest
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Focus Blast
First off, I need the extra power from modest. This Gengar is no revenge killer and really shines when the opponent switches around thinking it's scarfed and weak. It will almost always take a about a 1/4 off of whatever switches in when spamming shadow ball (exceptions being Blissey and specially bulky steels). My philosophy is that Gengar forces switches, but never had the strength to finish the job. He's much, much better suited to hit and run when he switches in quite easily. Fantastic metagame scout that I always see run as a mediocre revenge killer or overly reliant on such a frustrating move in Focus Blast.
My backup lead to use against the Hippo mainly. It has the ability to 2HKO's specially defensive variants (about a 50/50), but I will always sacrifice Gengar to get Hippowdon into KO range. It's annoying to get stalled and walled with slack off and is definitely a difficult wall for this team to break, but that's the reason why I'm using Modest SpecsGar in the first place. Gengar isn't ever going to sweep a team, but it's raw power wrecks mixed or physical walls while boasting valuable immunity.
Gengar is just as expendable as Infernape, but rarely do I ever sacrifice both at once unless I'm up against weaker teams that are vulnerable to becoming easily broken down. It doesn't OHKO the standard Deoxys-D set which really sucks, so stealth rocks are nearly impossible to avoid, but this team doesn't mind entry hazards too much as long as they are kept to a minimum (never let two layers of anything get down).
Thunder is for SpecsToad (or the rare scarf). Thunder OHKO's 100% of the time on the standard specs variant that don't fully invest in defense. Unfortunately, it only knocks the support set down to 10-20% hp. I'd rather set up rocks and lose Infernape due to it's limited use in the rain than gamble on losing Gengar early, but the options are there and both Gengar and Infernape work to cover all the major leads in tandem.
@ Choice Scarf
252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Adamant | Moxie
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge
My go-to end game cleaner, or mid game sweeper. Adamant gives it some much needed power over the not-so-important loss of speed. I opted out of naive because I have two very potent priority attackers already, and when not expecting a Scarf, it can stop bulky sweeps and nab a few KO's mid game with dragon claw without locking myself into outrage and losing him to clean later.
This set destroys a lot of things late game, especially given how easy it is to sacrifice something such as Gengar in order to take whatever down to into Outrage KO zone (usually ~30%). Once something goes under 1/3'd of their health it is generally thought of as death fodder any way giving Salamence a free, faster dragon dance.
Stone edge, although shady, becomes a great tool for taking out unsuspecting Tornadus-T early while they're spamming hurricane. I outspeed and OHKO with either life orb or rocks. ScarfMence handles +1 Gyarados pretty well too as a bonus.
Earthquake is there for prediction switches on Jirachi, Heatran and viable against Toxicroak as a last resort. I never want to lose Salamence too early though unless I can get around speed issues with Scizor and Mamoswine.
@ Expert Belt
4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid | Levitate
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Personally, I believe the Lati's are extremely effective in BW and definitely top 10 in terms of versatility and effectiveness. My team usually ends up pivoting around Latias scouting and bluffing choice scarf, then breaking holes with a boosted, mid game rampage. I really want to add more bulk to this set, but I just don't know where to put the EV's. I need the speed tie against other Lati's (unfortunately), and appreciate 2HKOing Ferrothorn in the rain. It is naturally bulky thanks to it's typing and generous stats, but I feel it tries to counter too much at once.
It handles Keldeo exclusively, which is an issue. Maybe not for long if they do end up bringing the ban hammer, but I don't see that happening. Scizor turns into a guessing game if Latias is weakened to where it won't survive a bullet punch... which means Keldo and Scizor on the same team already give me issues. Conkeldurr is annoying as shit if it gets a bulk up, which is why I'm thinking about switching to Psychic... but losing the semi-mixed sweeping ability with Psyshock turns into a "pick your poison".
Latias has holds just as many problems as it creates, which can be avoided by playing smart and patient, but at times it seems like this team moves slightly too fast for her to keep up. At the same time, it is so valuable as an offensive pivot that I'm completely torn on what to do with her. I originally had Latios, but that tiny extra bulk has proven to overcome the loss in power.
@ Life Orb
248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant | Thick Fat
- Ice Shard
- Stone Edge
Alongside Latias, Mamoswine is right up there for one of the most intimidating threats in OU. It is an essential tanking pivot for this team as its bulk is often underrated, especially against hidden power fire. It comes in for free on Jolteon and sometimes Jirachi if it lacks body slam. I often see stuff life Lucario (if it's looking for the end game swords dance) and Gyarados (really easy to predict if you don't get intimidated) come in then try and set up, only to get KO'd in the process.
Earthquake absolutely tears shit up and gets 2HKO's if you can scare off the Genies or Dragons thinking Ice Shard. Superpower does ~75% to the standard special defensive Ferrothorn, which we always want to kill asap. Stone Edge comes in handy for random neutrality and easing prediction against whether or not your opponent's going to switch Heatran out to Gyarados.
LO Ice Shard is what really makes this set though. It's essential protection against all those Dragons and Genies flying around and a safety net if Scizor and Salamence aren't around to revenge. Mamo forces all sorts of switches, while smacking around everyone else with monstrous earthquakes. Protection against thunderwave is also a bonus, as well as tanking frail sweepers.
@ Life Orb
248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SDef
Adamant | Technician
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
The final tank to round out my offensive pivot points and fallback revenge killer on opposing Mamoswine, Terrakion and whatever else weak that Mamo can't switch into directly. I opted out of choice band, even though I had it originally, because this team starts to break down when I'm switching between three choice users without a spinner. LO bullet punch doesn't have the initial raw power, but if I can get a swords dance off with stealth rocks down, the power and versatility upside becomes greater than that of choice band's.
Generally, Scizor is my most expendable tank thanks to how much shit it resists, which leaves me switching it in more often than other things... which also makes me want to take some of that attack and put it into defense. I haven't tried this though and don't know how well it would do, so any insight about a really bulky SD Scizor would be great, if anyone has experience with it.
Scizor doesn't do as good of a job as I expected it to do when I initially drew up this team. All the damage it takes really adds up over a few turns, no u-turn scouting, weak as a revenge killer and totally shifts roles once it tries to set up SD. I need a steel though, and like having the added priority option, so I don't know.
As much success this team has given me, there are still flaws. This team is built on speed and power. Stall teams are generally not too bad in the rain, but full on sand stall is pretty much gg for me and why I like to run trick on Gengar. Any super, suicidal offensive team that switches well will be a battle of who keeps up the better pressure.
-Deoxys-D will always get off a layer of something unless Gengar can score a lucky crit on the first turn.
-Magnezone with flash cannon ruins the party for Mamoswine
-Jellicent is almost guaranteed to take something down with it and forces me to keep Gengar alive; something this team is not designed for.
-Paraflinch Jirachi is as annoying as ever. My best shot is switching in Mamoswine on thunderwave or Gengar on body slam, or Scizor on iron head then sacrificing whoever in doing as much damage as possible before it gets me.
-Scarf Chomp that isn't so quick to spam outrage is a headache
-Scarf Keldeo in the rain is a pain in the ass and forces me to keep Latias at least around 70% until the end.
-Terrakion can be an issue if I don't have Scizor, but most that I've face generally becomes reckless and over zealous with their predicting.
-Alakazam with a focus sash will usually take out Infernape or Scizor.
At the end of the day though, most threats are generally checked within tandem and sacrificing Scizor to give Latias just enough breathing room set up
is all it takes to start the wrecking ball. This team has as much versatility as I've seen so far, and matches up very, very well against the majority of the metagame.
I believe you have to be at least a 6 in order to be happy in life.
Last edited by kirchinator; Jan 15th, 2013 at 7:31:09 PM.
|Jan 15th, 2013, 12:50:29 AM||#2|
When I walk these streets, A loaded six string on my back, I play for keeps, 'Cause I might not make it back
Join Date: Jun 2012
Brooklyn, New York
Nice weatherless offense team you got going on there. Weatherless is really getting common nowadays, even with Rain and Sun teams running around, isn't it? Anyways, this is a great and very well put together team, and hopefully with this rate, it will get even better. So without further adu, let's get to the team! Okay, first up is your Infernape, and I suggest changing his EV spread to 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe over your current spread. The Speed EV's allow you to outrun all base 100 Speed Pokemon and any Base 115 neutral natured Pokemon. Staying on Infernape, I suggest that you change Flare Blitz and Endeavor in favour of Fire Blast and Fake Out. With Fake Out, Infernape can scout the out its opponent and then act accordingly. Fire Blast gives you a great 120 base power STAB along with Close Combat. Moving on, I suggest that you change Mamoswines EV spread to one of 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe and a Jolly nature over your current one. The EV's allow Mamoswine to be an optimal Physical Attacker. The Jolly nature allows you to outspeed Adamant Lucario and Timid Heatran. Finally on Mamoswine, I would give it Icicle Crash over Superpower. Icicle Crash immensly helps you against the Dragons and has the added advantage of being able to OHKO Dragonite through Multiscale. Lastly, on Scizor, you should change his EV spread to a more offensive one, 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe would suffice here. The aftermantioned EV spread gives Scizor the ability to outspeed some threats that it may not normally outspeed. Well, that's all I have to say for now. I hope my advice helped. Have fun and good luck with your team!
PM or VM me for an OU rate!
|Jan 15th, 2013, 2:42:10 AM||#3|
Join Date: May 2011
The only weakness I see, are Keldeo and Tornadus-T, to solve these two problems, simply edit the moveset for Latias making it more bulky, thus changing its current spread in this Evs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 Def with Timid nature, and Psychock> Hidden Power Fire and Leftovers > Expert Belt, to kill Keldeo. Hidden Power Fire is not necessary since the Steel as Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skamory, they've been hit hard with Gengar (Hidden Power Fire/Focus Blast), with Infernape, Scizor and Mamoswine with (Ferrothorn).
To put Fire Blast > Stone Edge and Naive> Adamant on Salamence, because now that Latias is Bulky Calm Minder you do not need to use Salamence against Tornadus-T and Fire Blast allows you to hit the Steel as Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory, without having to change Pokemon. Naive nature not to diminish the power of Fire Blast Salamence also makes it faster to play the Speed Tie with Scarf Jirachi, in cases of emergency.
For Mamoswine, I suggest you move at the speed evs by HP doing this Evs Spread: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP. Thanks to Evs in speed can exceed SDef Jirachi and Toxicroak and kill them with Earthquake, I would try also Icicle Spear> Stone Edge, breaks the Substitute Adamant Breloom with Toxic Orb and consequently kill him.
Thunder on Gengar does not seem useful, since thanks to the powerful special attack joined the Choice Specs Water in particular Tentacruel, Politoed and even Flyng already hit them hard with Shadow Ball, I'd rather Destiny Bond, to drag with them dangerous opponents, and you can not stop.Also put Timid> Modest nature, otherwise you can not outrun the Latios and Latias Specs, the Keldeo, etc. that you would exceed the Terrakion and kill you.
Good luck, with your team!
Last edited by Mr. Green; Jan 15th, 2013 at 6:17:37 AM.
|Jan 15th, 2013, 10:24:10 AM||#4|
Just Waiting For a Mate
Join Date: Apr 2012
On the curb
Cool team. First off, Focus Sash lead infernape is pretty much outclasses in OU. Infernape is severly hindered by rain and is pretty much dead weight asides from setting up Stealth Rocks. I would switch infernape for a Focus Sash Terrakion. Terrakion does the whole focus sash SR fighting type thing a whole lot better, boasting better STAB's along with higher attack and a fair degree of bulk under sand. Terrakion can also fit taunt into its movepool, stopping opposing walls and hazard setters from doing their jobs. Terrakion can do a lot more than just set up Stealth rock and die, he can give the opponents something to worry about by throwing around his STAB's and using taunt to shut down common defensive pokemon. If you do keep infernape, I would use Fire Blast > Flare Blitz as Dr Ciel suggested, it helps infernape out by letting it get through skarmbliss easier and giving it more fire power against lando-t and gliscor.
Specs Gengar although a good suprise, isn't very good in the current metagame. Gengar's main niche is protecting hazards, and since your team only uses Stealth Rock it doesn't really do much here atm. This team slot could be used more effectively by a differant pokemon imo, one that can help your sweepers out. Your team uses 2 offensive dragons, and a SD Scizor and a LO mamoswint to bust though teams. Latias and salamence dislike steels as they resist their main STAB, Scizor is shut down by faster Steel types that can OHKO and mamoswine falls into the same boat as scizor except opposing scizor do the job as well. Troublesome examples include fast / scarf jirachi, Scizor, skarmory, forretress and to an extent a smart ferrothorn player. Considering the fact that infernape or Terrakion should you choose it are your only ways of removing these steels reliably at present, I strongly suggest you try out Choice Specs Magnezone > Gengar. Magnezone lets you trap these steels that are generally troublesome for your team, 2HKO'ing ferrothorn in rain is something not to be under estimated. When not trapping steels, Volt Switch is a great momentum grabber and can be good for getting your sweepers switched in and ready to wreak havoc on the opposing team. Overall a very good fit in here, easily racking up momentum and trapping steels so your sweepers, most noticably salamence have a way easier time. As a bit of a side note, magnezone also provides a steel type to take dragon attacks, but it won't be able to do so consistently so it can only be done a few times, but by then you should be under going your late game plan so it doesn't really matter.
Seconding 252Atk/ 4Def/ 252Spe Mamoswine as well as 252Atk/ 4SpD/ 252Spe Scizor. I would also reccomend you try out a Jolly nature on scizor, it allows you to beat all non scarf variant of magnezone as well as most heatran, while the small drop in power doesn't miss out on any notciable 2HKO's / OHKO's after a boost. I also highly reccomend a Jolly nature on salaemence, the abilty to outspeed +1 neutral natured jirachi, volcarona and opposing salamence is very cool, especially considering how volcarona can do a real number on this team if it manages to set up.
GL with the team
Not good enough mate
|Jan 15th, 2013, 2:02:20 PM||#5|
Join Date: Sep 2010
Hi there, nice ho team!
The first thing that i want is to put Deoxys in place of Infernape.
Deoxys has a lot more bulkyness then in addition to stealth rock could put on the field a few rows of spikes that would prove very useful for the sweep of Scizor, salamece and latias.
The set that i always recommend is: Four support moves @RedCard to be able to put on the field the greatest number of hazard than other deoxys also thanks to the combo RedCard-Taunt prevents that the opponent uses Deoxys as a set-up fodder 'cause with taunt blocks that opponent boosting himself and red card force his switch if use an offensive move, last slot is magic coat that prevents fastest taunter prevent you from placing the hazards.
As second thing that you have to note is that the most used spinner is Tentacruel that ultimately is more used SubToxic, in this case could you better use SubDisable gengar for lock his move but ulso you gain the freedom moves that is very useful on Gengar 'cause you can avoiding to stuck on a useless move and come pursuitting by Scizor or Tyranitar.
About latias I'll note that the combination of CalmMind + Expertbelt is not very convenient because you have no way to recover life, and also you're incredibly vulnerable to status moves, but you can exploit ExpertBelt putting the fourth coverage moves, i'm talking about surf: in this way you can fake the choice item and make some surprise kills, substantially with her perfect coverage you exploit expert belt almost every turn.
At this point you should change the Salamence's nature, using adamant with scarf you don't exploit it because you'd be getting slower all the Pokémon that boost speed and making the scarf completely useless and lost a lot of revengekill power then put absolutely naive nature and FireBlast > Stone Edge to hit Skarmory, ferrothorn, Forretress and Bronzong.
As a final step you should enter icicleSpear> StoneEdge of Mamoswine to hit the various Ninjask, Gliscor, Breloom and some dragons as they are behind a substitute, would not essentially lose coverage because you still have two stab ice to hit flying types.
PM or VM me for a OU Rate!
|Jan 15th, 2013, 5:21:01 PM||#6|
Join Date: Dec 2012
A wonderful name that reflects a bit bw's actual metagame.
First of, i agree with Mosquiton's suggestion, you should use Deoxys-d over Infernape, Spikes are too much useful for you here.
After that, Tentacruel is surely such a bitch to face of when you use this kind of teams, as such have you considered Sub+destiny bond Gengar? it's very unexpected and with it you can kill Tentacruel, no matter how much health he has, as such serving as a great spin blocker against the likes of Tentacruel and Donphan.
So, you're saying you're actually disappointed by Scizor performance and is mostly the lack of u-turn? You could somehow check it by using a ''bluff choice set'' on Scizor, to be more precise the iron Plate one used by Most Wanted.
Hope it helped, good luck
Lurker since 2007
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|Jan 15th, 2013, 7:10:48 PM||#7|
Join Date: Feb 2008
Thanks for all the feedback guys, I tried each of these suggestions out with some mixing and matching, and this is what I've come up with:
Using Deoxys-D over Infernape worked decently, although counter intuitively. I lost the ability to scare away Tyranitar which made things worse for Latias. The extra layer of hazards didn't necessarily give me an easier time either, from what I noticed anyway. It just felt like it lacked the intimidation factor that Infernape brought, regardless of how outclassed it is... it's only really there to keep my opponent from carelessly switching and give me double switch momentum.
I do like fire blast over flare blitz though, and thanks Dr Ciel for the EV's. I was having trouble figuring out how much speed I actually needed to outspeed what I needed to outspeed (lol). Fake out worked well, but I noticed that endeavor was able to support the team a little better if I were ever able to switch Infernape into Ferrothorn early in the match when the sash keeps me at 1 hp.
Regarding Mamoswine and Scizor, taking away the bulk for speed was ok for Mamo but not at all for Scizor. He died way too quickly, couldn't tank and when I'm mainly looking to SD for bullet punch the bulk was kinda necessary. That Iron Plate set looks interesting though Jok, I didn't get to try that but I definitely will. The speed on Mamoswine works well, especially for Jirachi. I noticed he wasn't nabbing KO's as well with Ice Shard, as well as Icicle Crash getting about as much use as Stone Edge was, albeit against much more useful opponents.
I played around with Terrakion as a lead and it did alright. I used swords dance>taunt though as many people predicted the taunt outright, while swords dance let me cut up Jellicent right away. Sandstorm immunity was definitely nice, but the loss of will-o-wisp immunity sucked at the same time. The extra susceptibility to bullet punch also made it harder to handle Scizor.
I've tried all of these Gengar sets, and I still firmly believe modest specs is severely underrated. It's fodder more often than not because of its frailty and the subdisable set gets walled eventually. As much as I like destiny bond, I found it more useful to set up Latias or Salamence by taking off damage than guessing for the sacrifice. Life orb and substitute add up very quickly and even more so with rocks and sandstorm if they're up. The loss in power doesn't make up for it and destiny bond loses usefulness without the speed. Thanks to team preview, any rain team is going to start Politoad because I'm weatherless which allows Gengar to get a freebie OHKO with thunder most of the time. That fourth slot doesn't see much action anyway, and one of the safer ways of dealing with bulky waters.
I found that Salamence was failing to get KO's with Dragon Claw without adamant, and ended up losing it early as I was often forced into outrage. Fire blast has been useful, but really weak in the rain. Salamence with stone edge is my best answer for Volcarona, but have been screwed over with speed... which just brings me around in coverage circles. I'm still not sure what to do with him since every which way I look at him leaves me at a disadvantage somewhere which is really frustrating.
With Latias, it is absolutely necessary to carry hidden power fire because of Ferrothorn, Scizor and Jirachi. After a calm mind, it turns some 3HKO's into 2HKO's, but not enough to warrant the excess investment. I'm testing out the bulkier calm mind with 112 hp / 204 sp atk / 192 spd. It helps ease the pressure Keldeo puts on me, but the lack of recovery hurts with its now underwhelming attack.
Thanks again for all the suggestions, and feel free to try it out yourself.