Join Date: Sep 2006
Smogon "Create a Pokemon" Part Deux: Poll 5
Okay, the 500-525 stat total won out.
Here, we shall decide the final base stat spread of our Ghost/Fighting Pokemon. Guidelines that the stat creators had to follow where that the Pokemon be Physical in its offenses, have relatively equal defenses, be relatively equal in its ability to deal hits and its ability to take them, and finally it must lie in the speed range of 60 - 85 speed.
Voting for this thread will be done in a preferential format. You order and bold the spreads you want from 1-9, with your favorite as number one and your least favorite as number nine. The number you give a spread is the number of points it earns. The spread with the least
amount of points at the end is the winner, similar to golf. Please refer to each spread by its creator's name. This method allows us to be accurate while only performing one poll.
The scoring is similar to golf, in which the lowest score WINS, not loses, WINS.
List your votes from 1-9, with one being your favorite and nine being your least favorite.
Name each spread after its creator.
1. Sanjay120 -
2. Gothic Togekiss
6. King of Anime
7. Deck Knight
8. Eric the Espeon
9. Lord Sunday -
my least favorite
Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight
Here's my stubbornly defended never recanted spread.
Basic runthrough: With No EVs and Max EV's it has Leftovers +1-3 HP, perfect for Subbing down or BP'ing say Aqua Ring to abuse Protect + Sub.
Attack is decent but not overpowering. You can't just slap on a Band or Bulk Up once and expect it to lay waste to all in it's path.
Defense is high so it can tank physical hits with ease.
Special Attack is mediocre to allow for some level of STAB/HP use.
Special Defense is decent but not overemphasized.
Speed is for the LOL end with 666 deal and for its strategic usefullness in outspeeding Base 65s >_>
Thanks for the opportunity Hyra. I'm glad I got top billing >_>
Originally Posted by Fat sanjay120
I don't get it I think our states are fine the way they are except maybe Louisiana it should be closer to me because I love that state.
Because I don't want a Dusknoir clone.
Because when I voted 'balanced' I was thinking Hariyama, not Spiritomb.
Because we don't have to give it Close Combat or Hypnosis.
Because SubPunching is great.
Because a physical bulky Ghost sweeper would be a unique addition to OU and another Swampert wouldn't.
And also because I'm still wanting a Banette evo, though as long as we actually make something different from what we already have I'm fine with it.
Now watch this be one of maybe three spreads with Attk over 100.
Originally Posted by Fat Rhykune
Okie Dokie Hyra, here it is...
Good HP for sponging hits. Very strong physical attack power and enough special attack to still cause pain with a super effective special attack. The defenses are a little biased towards the special defense side because it makes a bulk-up set more plausible and it's not too broken. Fair speed, so it can outspeed most walls and some threats. A good spread because it isn't broken, but has stats to utilize its awesome typing.
Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug
90/95/100/70/90/80 = 525
The key theme of this spread is balance. It is geared to highlight this pokemon's unique typing.
Since it hits everything neutral, I'd like it to stand in and grind it out against opponents. This is not a OHKO machine, and it doesn't need to be. It is defensively oriented, but has enough attacking power to make a dent, even without a setup move. With this pokemon's typing, it won't take SE hits very often. It has enough speed to beat most of the slow bulky stuff. But, anything remotely fast should get the jump on it easily. At 80 speed, a scarf could be an option. The special attack is set to be just barely usable. It's likely only for surprise, but it's not completely worthless.
Balanced stats are normally the kiss of death for a competitive pokemon. "Good at everything, great at nothing." But with typing like Ghost/Fighting, a balanced stat line can work well.
Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss
90/105/100/70/95/65 = 525
90 HP give this guy 384 max, which equals to 24 HP gain with Leftovers. The 90 HP coupled with it's defense make it a pretty good tank as well.
105 Attack give it enough power to threaten things while not being overly powerful.
100 Defense is there so it can take hit pretty well on the physical side.
70 Sp. Atk, low enough so it couldn't go on the mix sweep party but still usable enough when using a 4x weak Hidden Power on certain pokemon.
95 Sp. Def is high enough to take a few special hits but not too hige that it can't be stop by it's counters.
65 Speed is there so it can outspeed most of the pokemon sitting on the 60 range including the pokemon this whole creature was made to counter, T-tar.
Originally Posted by Fat futuresuperstar
My Suggested Statistical Spread
A Final In-Depth Look
Introduction and Purposes:
Our Ghost / Fighting Pokemon has been labeled as a balanced and bulky creation with notable defenses and average speed. According to recent polls, it has been confined to the total statistical range of 500-525, placing it around the likes of Lucario in terms of its final base statistical total. With its impressive typing and established role, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon has the ability to influence the current metagame in a similar fashion as Swampert, flaunting the ability to hang around a battle long after its welcome. Only three types hit a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon for super-effective damage -- Flying, Ghost, and Psychic. Two of the aforementioned three types are rarely seen in competitive play outside of a few select Pokemon, and both Ghost-types and Psychic-types are easily taken down by super-effective Ghost-typed STAB. In other words, this Pokemon has the ability to effectively "counter" its two of its three weaknesses with its own STAB, giving it a unique little niche in which to thrive outside of the likes of Swampert and company.
Where does this leave our intended base spread? The answer is quite simple. A Ghost / Fighting Pokemon needs to have the ability to "do" what its typing implies that it can do. In specific, it must be able to counter essentially all forms of Heracross, adding it to a select handful of Pokemon that can stand up to the renowned bug of death. Furthermore, it needs to be able to give most Tyranitar a run for its money. Finally, it needs to be able to take full advantage of its ability to survive in a match for an extended period of time, bringing attention to the inevitability of a move such as Bulk Up. Once again, our Ghost / Fighting Pokemon shares a certain uniqueness with Swampert -- it could very easily mimic the role of "CursePert," focusing on its defenses on the special side of the spectrum and relying on its statistical increasing move to boost its physical and defensive capabilities. Another prime example in the current metagame is Suicune -- it focuses on physical defense and relies on Calm Mind to give it both its lasting ability on the opposite side of the spectrum and its threatening ability to sweep through a team. However, both of these examples fall under the category of "lingering threats" -- they are Pokemon that are not so threatening at first and, consequently, must build themselves into the likes of a sweeper that simply will not die.
In other words, it is important to remember that a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon must be forced to rely on its stat boosts to last on the physical side of the spectrum against most physical threats while still being able to counter specific entities like Heracross because of its key resistances. It is imperative that it is not initially overpowered, but instead given the ability to overpower itself against an opponent that makes the mistake of giving it time to "power up."
With all of the aforementioned in mind, I have gone to great lengths to design a base statistical spread that will most encompass a bulky Ghost / Fighting Pokemon's inherent duty to a competent team. So, without further adieu: the final spread.
The Final Statistical Spread
Analyzing the Outlined Spread
The Base Statistical Spread:
90 HP / 105 Attack / 90 Defense / 65 Sp. Attack / 110 Sp. Defense / 65 Speed
Total = 525 BST
In-Depth Analysis -- 90 HP
The first factor of any base statistical spread is HP, and our Ghost / Fighting creation is no different. There are many factors that play into the decision to suggest a base statistic of 90 HP. First and foremost, it nets the possibility of 384 Maximum HP. Such a number grants it excellent Leftovers recovery, as the number is divisible by sixteen. Some notable Fighting-types hang right alongside this number -- Poliwrath and Machamp. It also exists as a happy medium between some of the ridiculous exceptions, such as Hariyama's massive Maximum HP of 492 and Hitmontop's rather embarrassing Maximum HP of 304. Moreover, most Ghost-types spike either extremely low or extremely high, making a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon the first Ghost-typed hybrid to flaunt an HP Statistic of above average quality. Even still, it puts it underneath Swampert by a notable ten base statistical points, making sure to keep it away from an exact replica. Finally, and most importantly, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon does not need an extremely high base HP Statistic, seeing as the likes of Seismic Toss -- and, consequentially, Blissey -- cannot harm it. Due to this immunity, Substitute could become a very viable for our new creation.
In-Depth Analysis -- 105 Attack
One of the main points that I attempted to establish in my introduction to this proposal was that a bulky Ghost / Fighting Pokemon needed to lack the ability to hit extremely hard right off the bat without sacrificing its defenses. In fact, this very statement is one of the most pertinent reasons why using Close Combat on a bulky Ghost / Fighting Pokemon is less than desireable. With the exception of situational uses of Focus Punch, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon would need to have its safest and most realistic STAB Fighting-move reside right around the likes of Brick Break and Force Palm, and maybe Sky Uppercut. Between this particular truth and Shadow Claw's relatively low base power, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon would be forced to rely on the likes of Bulk Up to really give it its power.
Therefore, an base 105 Attack was selected to give our creation the ability to boost its actual statistics fairly high while still having to rely on relatively weaker base powered moves to take down its competition outside of its obvious type-advantages. Such a statistic places it on par with fellow Fighting-types like Primeape and Hitmonchan while replacing their freedom of using Close Combat with impressive defenses while simultaneously giving it the highest base attack of any current Ghost-type outside of Giratina and Banette. Mismagius also flaunts a familiar base 105 attacking statistic, just on the special side of the spectrum instead of the physical side.
One important thing to consider was the amount of physical attack our creation would need to take down a Maximum HP Tyranitar with Brick Break. Below is a sample damage calculation -- can a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon with a base 105 Attack, neutral nature, and zero EVs in Attack take down a Maximum HP Tyranitar?
246 Attack STAB Brick Break vs. 252 HP Tyranitar = 79-93%
246 Attack STAB Sky Uppercut vs. 252 HP Tyranitar = 89-100%
Exactly. The answer is no. This thing should not have the ability to defeat Tyranitar in one hit without first earning its right to stay in the battle through the use of Bulk Up. Obviously, with Stealth Rock in play, it is possible to beat Tyranitar in one hit with Sky Uppercut, but the player risks missing, something that it may not be able to afford when relying on staying power against such a massive threat. This goes to prove how a base 105 Attack, while powerful, does not overpower a bulky Ghost / Fighting-type without first either managing to get a few statistical boosts under its belt or giving up its durability through the use of Close Combat.
In-Depth Analysis -- 90 Defense
One of the most important statistics to consider is our creation's defense and, ergo, its physical defensive capabilities before and after a single Bulk Up. It is expected, after all, to be able to take on all forms of Heracross. So, first and foremost, here are some damage calculations to support the combination of base 90 HP and base 90 Defense:
Max Attack Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = Immune
Max Attack Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = 22-26%
Max Attack Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = 25-29%
Max Attack Choice Band Heracross Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = 35-41%
Max Attack Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = 63-74%
Max Attack Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = 39-46%
Max Attack Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = 52-61%
So, as shown, it has the ability to stop Heracross as it is designed to without having to invest any EVs into its Defense. This gives it the ability to act fairly well defensively based on its key resistances; however, as shown, neutral hard-hitting attacks will take our Ghost / Fighting Pokemon down. However, if played against its excellent resistances and immunities, it can manage to get a single Bulk Up under its belt. Look at how things change after it nets a single Bulk Up:
Max Attack Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured +1 Creation = 35-41%
Essentially, our creation would have to rely on its resistances to operate well on the physically defensive side of the spectrum until it could manage to boosts its statistics with the likes of Bulk Up. Only then can it truly operate on both sides, similar to inability to take strong special hits until it manages to power itself up through Calm Mind.
Now, another positive to having a base 90 Defense is the actual number a neutral natured variation hits without any EVs in Defense, a very round and comfortable value of 216, easily multiplied and comparable to a fully defensive Scizor, Celebi, or Jirachi after a single Bulk Up. It complements its base 105 Attack quite well, especially against those enemies it is expected to counter.
In-Depth Analysis -- 65 Sp. Attack
This section simply exists for the sake of professionalism and presentation. The bottom line is that this statistic is largely irrelevant, as there is absolutely no use for it. Even the acclaimed filler-move Fire Blast would see very little use on our Ghost / Fighting Pokemon, as its main targets -- Forretress and Skarmory -- have no business ever fairly facing it. It will never be able to take on Skarmory unless it has a sufficient amount of statistical boosts under its belt, and Forretress cannot do anything to a bulky Ghost / Fighting, as it is immune to Explosion and Rapid Spin and slow enough to down-right laugh at any attempts regarding Gyro Ball.
In-Depth Analysis -- 110 Sp. Defense
Now, this is one of the most interesting aspects to the spread. A Ghost / Fighting Pokemon with access to Bulk Up would most likely focus on its Special Defense, similar to Suicune's focus on Defense with access to Calm Mind. A base 110 Sp. Defense statistic allows our creation to take special hits very well outside of Shadow Ball, Psychic, and Air Slash. In fact, with the combination of a base 90 HP statistic and a base 110 Sp. Defense statistic, our Ghost / Fighting Pokemon is largely comparable to a special defensive Heatran and Slowking. It may not have the same resistances as Heatran, but it also has very little weakness to exploit, unlike Heatran's 4x-Ground-weakness. Finally, unlike Slowking, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon is not weak to Pursuit, giving it a notable edge over Slowking. With enough attention to Special Defense, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon can simply last through many threats, even more effectively than Swampert's combination of a base 100 HP and a base 90 Sp. Defense.
In-Depth Analysis -- 65 Speed
The final facet to any base statistical spread is Speed. With a base 65 Speed statistic, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon could have the ability to out-speed Tyranitar and take it out with a Fighting-type move. While its superiority to Tyranitar's speed is certainly the most important aspect of its speed statistic, our creation would also have the ability to out-speed many notable no-speed base 60-Pokemon, many of which are walls that can be taken down by boosted Fighting-typed or Ghost-typed attacks. Also of note is our creation's potential access to priority moves. Being a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon, it could very easily turn up with the ability to use Mach Punch and Shadow Sneak. The former could quite easily dispatch of Weavile and finish off menaces like Tyranitar, Lucario, Empoleon, Magnezone, Heatran, and company. The latter could serve as a protective barrier against Gengar, Mismagius, Azelf, Celebi, Starmie, and the like, especially paired with the use of Bulk Up. Also, for more offensive variations of our creation, a base speed of 65 paired with incentive and a Choice Scarf has the ability to hit 376 Speed, enough to out-speed the Base 120 Speed Tier at 372 Speed.
Conclusions and Final Thoughts:
The following base spread, as explored in the aforementioned block of text, has the ability to stir up a whole new world in the current metagame. I hope that I have done my job in convincing you, the reader. However, it will never see the light of day without your vote and support. A vote for the following spread is a vote for a new Heracross counter, a vote for a new sturdy tank, and a vote for a great new addition to the overused metagame!
The Final Spread
90 HP / 105 Attack / 90 Defense / 65 Sp. Attack / 110 Sp. Defense / 65 Speed
Total = 525 BST
Originally Posted by Fat Lord_Sunday
Originally Posted by Fat Hyra
The winners from last poll were Balanced, Physical, and Medium. This means our Ghost/Fighting Pokemon will have relatively the same ability to take damage as it does to deal it, be mostly Physical based in its manner of attacks, yet have relatively even defenses, and have somewhere between 60 and 85 speed.
110 / 95 / 80 / 70 / 75 / 85 = 515.
Both Atk and Def leaning towards Physical? Check.
Balanced Defences? Check, only five BP difference.
Speed within 60-85? Check.
BST Within 500-525? Check, 515
Not so much Atk or Spe that people will be temped to wack a Choice Scarf or Choice Band on it an attempt to sweep? Check.
I believe this Stat spread gives our Pokemon the ability to tank effectivly while still being able to dish out a few hits. This spread ensures that people are not tempted to attempt to sweep with what was clearly intended to be a tanky Pokemon. The speed is enough so that it can outspeed non-scarf Adamant Heracross, allowing it to be a suficient counter. The Special attack is not sacrificed to allow the other stats a slight boost. This is important as with a few buffs in the form of Calm Mind this Pokemon has an alternative to Physical Attacks.
Originally Posted by Fat KingofAnime-KoA
I'm terribly sorry for not replying sooner, I was temporarily without internet earlier today.
Anywho, this is my Stat spread and my reasoning behond it:
Basically, I feel the HP should be moderate, but with enough to take advantage of its typing. Every fully evolved Ghost type, barring Giratina and Drifblim, have HP stats in between 45-70. Dusknoir being the lowest and Froslass the highest.
Now, as per a rule, and mostly due to the properties of being a ghost pokemon, they have subpar defenses. Dusknoir and Spiritomb break this rule, but their reduced HP helps to balance things out a bit.
So, since we aimed for our guy to be physically strong with bulky defenses, I feel we can compromise a bit with our HP and defenses.
As for speed, due to the nature of our pokemon, medium speed would work best due to him being more physically oriented. Think about it, aren't bulkier fighters a bit slower than lighter ones? A good comparison would be comparing Medieval Knights to Ninjas. The knights have the better defenses and raw power, but the ninja excels at stealth and speed while sacrificing armor, thus making him more vulnerable.
In terms of speed, Ghost types and fighters can be seem at mixed spectrums. The lowest of the Ghost and Fighting types would be Spiritomb with his amazing 35 speed stat. The fastest of these particular types is Infernape with his 108 base speed. We can easily compare the two as the Knight and Ninja. Infernape has amazing speed and power to cover up his weak defenses, much like how a ninja has to be quick and overtake foes before they have a chance to retaliate or else his lack of defenses will be his own undoing.
Spiritomb on the other hand is more heavily built and can take the hits, but this also nerfs his speed by quite alot, as would a suit of armor. However, the armor allows for the fighter to stay longer to deal more blows to his opponent.
Given that our guy will most likely be a bulkier physical creation, a bit of a cutback in speed might not be too much to ask. He'll have the appropriate staying power with his defenses to be able to fight valiantly.
With those points made, this is a spread I humbly propose:
A spread of 75/110/110/70/95/65 suits me best. It follows the guidelines established and is balanced enough to not be too broken. :)
Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon
right here you go
my spread 125/110/70/65/78/72
125, so it can take hits on both sides quite well, high HP is more important than defences in detemineing how much damage you take.
110 base attack, so it can hurt things with unbosted STAB attacks, but not be overpowerd if it gets bulk up.
70 def, with the high base HP it can take nutral hits very well, and after a bulk up or two extremly well.
65 base sp. attack, not to be used, but a 4x efective hidden power would do some damage e.g. HP fire for forry or ice for gliscor.
78 sp. defence, so it can take powerful sp. hits if eved to do so, with its great HP it will be hard to break with non super efective sp. attacks.
72 base speed, slow but able to outspeed stuff like metagross and tyranitar if eved to do so. max speed with a scarf would be quite fast.
Cooper declined to send in a thread.
Okay, I'm gonna leave this thread open for a while, because it is one of the most important ones so far.
Originally Posted by Fat Acura
When I was like five I had this nightmare. Every boy in school had to be 'circumcised' by this weird penis-chopping machine. Throughout my childhood, I was scared of penis-chopping machines.
Last edited by Hyra; Feb 9th, 2008 at 8:41:27 PM.
Reason: me not writing the right rules