Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Stage Discussion

Firestorm

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
This is the thread to discuss the stages in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Discuss which stages you think should be banned, which should be counterpick, and also what sort of stage selection method you think would be good in Brawl. Strategies for individual stages can also go here. Do not just create a list of stages you feel should be banned. This is a discussion thread. All opinions must be backed up by facts.

Remember that all forum rules are enforced. This includes the coherency rule. Grammar and spelling are your friends.
 
Hm..quite an influx of SSBB topics. Regardless:

Should Smogon have it's own stage ban list? One not tied to Smashboards? I think something like that would be for the best. I'm not sure quite how to handle it, but I think that by weeding out the obvious banned ones, you'll be able to later separate the CP and Neutral.

I'll start with the most obvious stage that should be banned.

Spear Pillar has:

Hazards (All across the screen), Ruins your control (Something no other stage does), Wall teching (Cave of Life anyone?) and you can just run away if you really feel like it. This is a hilarious stage with items on and 4 player FFA, but a no-items 1v1 renders this stage impossible.

Well, if everyone makes these kinds of posts and we take out the very obvious banned stages (75m, Spear Pillar, Mario Bros), we can have a very nice list of stages.
 
No, I don't think we should. We're a competitive community and I'm really a supporter of the belief that the competitive community for any game should follow a standardized list of rules. A lot of us here attend tournaments offline and it's better we use the same rules rather than switch between things.

However, a separate ban list for online compared to offline does seem logical. Lylat Cruise for example seems to be almost unplayable online, but offline it's a contender for neutral.
 
For ban:

75m - Any stage in which Donkey Kong is always a character is a onesided stage. How can you beat invincible Donkey Kong?

Big Blue/Summit/Kongo Jungle/Rainbow Cruise for self-explanatory reasons.

Port Town Aero Dive: hi OHKO Vehicle death.
 
Why would you consider banning Rainbow Cruise?
It's typically counterpick, if I remember correctly.

I'm also against Jungle Japes being banned. Any reason why it's usually not CP? Klap Trap isnt always a OHKO, and I don't ever remember me or my opponent getting hit by that thing in a serious fight. The water can be dangerous, but it isnt that bad. The high ceiling makes this a great counterpick against Snakes in general.

It's usually just lumped in their and I rarely get an explanation for why.
 
Summit, Kongo Jungle, and especially Rainbow Cruise are anything but "Self-explanataroy". And Colin seems to disagree with Big Blue as well. None of the stage bans in this game with the exception of New Pork City, Hyrule Temple, and WarioWare (in an item-less environment) seem to be self-explanatory.
 
IIRC, Rainbow Cruise was CounterPick in Melee.

I would say the NPC and Temple are banned because they're so big, Pork gives advantages to characters who can jump well, and Temple, the fast characters. Warioware is banned because you gte ridiculous power-ups (invincibility, Mega-fied) if you do a simple task.

Also, Kongo Jungle FTBan, as I've found, when I've played 1v1 on it with my friend, I can't recover if I fall in the water ¬_¬

I would say Summit is OK, actually. the only "bad" part about it is when the stage is going down the mountain. Other than that, it's fine for me.
​
 
I don't think Summit is THAT bad, but the fact it's circular makes it an easy run-away game for faster characters. The spike that drops from the bottom ceiling is an annoyingly strong hazard, too.

Jungle Japes is a legitimate teetor-totter stage in the competitive community, it seems. On the one hand, it's a fairly normal, flat platformed stage. It's one of the few stages with a higher-than-average ceiling, so I think it's a great CP. A lot of people have a problem with the river, though, and the klaptrap is instant death if not rarely a factor. Some people also cry about the side platforms promoting extreme camping, but then so does Final Destination so big whoop. ;/
 
Mario Bros. is insta-ban. It's perhaps the only stage that doesn't promote actual fighting. The only strategy to fighting there is to wait for a turtle, knock it over, and chuck it at your opponent, which results in a quick death. Whoopee.
 
Yes, I'd call Mario Bros. an easy ban as even Sakurai says it's not meant for a normal Smash Bros. game. Not only that, the camping there would extend games far beyond what is normal for a tournament. 75m also suffers from Hyrule Temple syndrome.

Port Town Aero Dive's cars seem to kill at insanely low percentages and there's at least one area where there doesn't seem to be a safespot. I really would like to see that stage banned.
 
Ok, so I'll be creating a new thread on Smashboards for the sole discussion of Norfair's placement. A lot of people are still moving for banned status, and stalling has been brought up as a possible issue. Jigglypuff, you see.

What I want to know is what you all think of it.

1: Hazards an issue?
2: Stalling an issue?

Port Town is lame and I would love to see a ban.
PS1 should be counterpick.
and maybe PS2 banned?
 
I don't think Norfair needs yet another topic on SmashBoards as it's already had quite a few. I still believe it should be counterpick as I've yet to see anyone abuse it for stalling...

Why should PS1 be counterpick and PS2 be banned though? Pokemon Stadium 2 I think is a counterpick stage. Nothing on it really makes it seem like it should be banned. The closest we have would be the conveyer belts, but even that is something that can easily be stalled out (whoever gets the middle won't want to give up that position, so the opponent can just stall off the edges).
 
Quite a few? I searched through all three pages and saw two. One is a Norfair appreciation thread, theres no discussion about its placement that I can see. The second is a person noting how they now like it, and then someone linking the prior Norfair thread. /thread. Theres no discussion on where it should be, and I would really like to start one. The problem with making a big post in the thread is that it'll quickly be buried behind pages of posting stages and discussing. I want to make something a little easier to reference if Norfair ever pops up again.

Ps1 is being argued for, neutral vs BL vs CP, and I personally think this is CP. Pokemon Stadium 2 just feels like a category up from PS1. The air part is begging to be stalled on, and you mentioned camping on the motor one.

A lot of people wont just wait this out, and instead will be focused on getting the opponent off the edge. I don't remember, but can the ledges be grabbed in this transition?

The ice part is mostly an annoyance. The ground is fine.
It also doesnt have the annoying edges.

It can be CP, I guess, but I really would prefer it falling in with some other bans, as I dont want to waste my personal ban on this stage :s

EDIT:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=e_JIls7Ine4

this is the video Enrich made to show how stalling can be the prevalent strategy on Norfair. I really don't agree with using this as the end all be all point of whether Norfair should be banned or not. Whatcha think?
 
i dont think port town should be banned. the cars are insanely easy to avoid and you can even see them coming save for that one placement where they come in from the left.

temple isnt that bad either unless youre playing more than 2 people, then only if 2 groups are fighting on different ends of the screen. the "cavern" underneath causes issue, but heres the thing, dont go in there o,o. everyone knows its very difficult to kill anyone in that space so stay out of there. if someone goes in theyre obviously stalling, and are (BAN ME PLEASE). chances are (BAN ME PLEASE) will be (BAN ME PLEASE) on any stage anyways.

summit is pretty bad and deserves to be banned. small fighting area that gets reduced when youre in the water thanks to mister fish. the block in the middle is what kills this stage though which makes setting up any technique more difficult than it should.

i think skyworld should be banned. its a very cramped stage which heavily favors small and flying chars. most battles are centralized in the box, where like the temples cave just draws out the battle. unlike temple, theres almost no wheres else to battle save for the top which everyone will try to avoid anyways.

i just have personal issues with battlefield and lylat cruise. i hate how low and close together their platforms. hate.

jungle japes is pretty bad. i for one thing the stage is too dark... and to zangy, with other stages when you fall or get knocked of a ledge, you at least have a chance to recover, you have like less than a second on jj before youre dead.

spear pillar isnt that bad. the major problem on it only being slow down and confuzzled controls. neither are really that game breaking just a matter of annoyance. as for cresselia, all of her attacks are the same, im should you all know how to avoid them by now:/

flat zone for ban, very small stage gay animal trainers.

green hill stage i think is ok. me and my friend has it on our ban list because he says it always centralizes on the half way marker (which it kinda does).

rainbow cruise for ban because while it is a moving stage (i happen to think mushroom kingdom is ok, rumble falls would be ok but i have a strong dislike for those instakill spikes) i feel it has too many moving platforms and falling blocks etc to focus on fighting.

distant planet is nice. a relatively uneven stage as far as platforms but isnt bad.

electro plankton banned. pretty self explanatory
 
The flying part of Pokemon Stadium 2 has no issues. This is a counterpick stage after all. Some characters benefit from it, some characters don't. And I don't see why "A lot of people wont just wait this out, and instead will be focused on getting the opponent off the edge." is an issue for conveyor belts. Um, so what if the players are kind of stupid? Let them fight? It's not like people are dying at 40% randomly on that stage.

Also, what personal ban? >_>;

As for Norfair, I'd like to see a match where both players didn't look really bad >_>; I do know about that strategy as my friend told me how he'd run into it. Although I think it was used more effectively in his case.

atlas, I disagree with you on Hyrule Temple. "(BAN ME PLEASE) will be (BAN ME PLEASE)" doesn't really work in a competitive environment.

And I disagree with Elecroplankton being self-explanatory... It's unorthodox, but doesn't seem to be too bad at all to me.
 
Yeah, the Norfair match was pretty disappointing to watch. It was even more disappointing that people use this as a prime example as to why Norfair should be banned. It's partially why I want to make the thread :c

To the conveyor belt part: If the ledges arent grabbable, then camping does become an issue on this part. One will hold the center while the other stalls offstage, was it? Well, if one is offstage, the one in the center can make chase and pressure them off. It's pretty ridiculous looking with both people are off the stage and they land just to be knocked back off.

For reference: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=QM5X9wFA1LY
at 2:44 Dani grabs fox and carries him off, and they have an edge battle here. Fox gets back on to only fall back off.

I mean, you're right. After examination, the stage isnt the worst, and probably doesnt deserve a ban. It's just a possibility.

Stage Banning: Each player may choose to eliminate 2 of the stages available for counterpicking.
Click to expand...
Also, there was an interesting argument brought up against Electroplankton being ban worthy because Fox could stall here, flawlessly. It was in the stage legality thread, but I cant seem to find it anymore. The fox stall argument was very persuasive and I'll look around a bit more for it.

edit: FOUND

Please do not insult me by thinking I'm dumb enough to fall for the false water background and the stem background.

A 'false loop' as I like to call the problem. I'm sure you're aware of the loop problem with stages like Hyrule Temple where you can run away forever with no chance of being caught. You can do this with Hanenbow thanks to the terrible platform layout, with Fox actually being the problem again.

For the small amount of time that Fox will actually be running, his running speed is faster than most of the cast. However, the problem lies in his ability to have about 3 options for movement from nearly any position on the stage. His rising fairs and blaster jump (similar to Lucas' zap jump, only it makes his second jump significantly fast instead of getting an aerial boost) allow him to move from down to up faster than the majority of the cast. Then his falling speed allow him to go from down to up faster than the rest of the cast. His reflector is able to stall in the air to allow a quick change in the path he is running. His illusion will allow him to move between left and right incredibly fast, which he is able to do nearly blindly since the spots where he won't land on a platform are minimal. He will always be able to escape his pursuer after gaining the lead, which is easy to be gotten right away thanks to his blaster. And sadly projectiles won't be able to spot him and force him to fight, thanks to his ability to either reflect them or use the leaves as safeguards against them. He's able to easily wait at any point for where his opponent is going to approach from, and have a multitude of ways to react and run away.

It's very dumb. Simply go and test the things I told you against a person or even a CPU. See how incredibly easy it is to not be touched.

That's simply the extreme situation. Other characters are able to do the same thing, just not as well.
Click to expand...
 
Atlas said:
jungle japes is pretty bad. i for one thing the stage is too dark... and to zangy, with other stages when you fall or get knocked of a ledge, you at least have a chance to recover, you have like less than a second on jj before youre dead.
Click to expand...

So, just because the time that you are allowed to recover is delayed, it should be banned? Let's just ban everything since they have some small thing that makes them unfair in some way. FD gimps recovers. JJ has the water. Not that big of a deal.
 
You can grab onto the edges of PS2 if I'm not mistaken, even during the conveyor belt stage.

Interesting point about Electroplankton.

Zangy, it's an issue when the delay before you can recover means you'll die before you can recover. Which is what the left half of Jungle Japes does. The water flows too fast to let you back up.
 
I'm mostly against stages that have "Big Blue" movement and not "Mute City" movement. They punish characters with poor air games.

In other words, Halberd and Delfino Plaza are totally legit to me, where Jungle Japes and Rainbow Cruise are out. Pirate Ship I don't mind because none of the field changes are that drastic.

Summit's fall down the mountain reduces the gravity and makes for too many slants. It's air camp central for characters with multiple jumps. It's cool when it is random and temporary like on Stadium 2, but it makes up a large part of the initial summit battle.

Jungle Japes also has those insane thorn hazards. Pirate Sip's Cannon Fire is powerful and annoying, but reduces single-spot camping. There is of course the God-Tier ship hull.

Wario-Ware is broken as hell. Free invincibility ftw?

Port Town Aero Dive has the most powerful hazards in the game, although Pictochat Picket Spikes give a good run for the money.

Bridge of Eldin, Flat Zone 2, and Mario Circuit have walk-off edges. Counterpick perhaps. Cept Flat Zone, whuch is also ridiculously small and with hazards.

Hanenbow and New Pork City have Temple syndrome.
 
Jungle Japes doesnt have thorn hazards...
thats rumble falls >___>

JJ has the moving water if you forget.

AND RAINBOW CRUISE IS A GREAT CP.
Its counterpick because you want an advantage on someone with a bad air game.
:P
 
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