Stealth Rock in the OU Metagame

I am aware of the topic in 'The Policy Review' about Stealth Rock, however as far as I know a seperate discussion thread for the rest of us without a badge isn't breaking any rules. Furthermore, this thread is solely limited to the OU metagame. My experience of the Uber and UU tiers is, to say the least, limited, but I would guess that it may bring up a completely seperate range of points which are not applicable to OU. Another threat by someone more knowledgeable in UU may be a good idea, but keep to OU in this topic.

Move: Stealth Rock
Type: Rock
PP: 20
Priority: 0

'Stealth Rock is placed on the opponent's field and damages any Pokémon when they switch in. The base damage is 12.5%, and is affected by the target's susceptibility to Rock; Pokémon that are 4x weak to Rock will receive 50% max HP damage; 2x weak to Rock will result in 25%; a 2x resist will take 6.25%, and any Pokémon with a 4x resistance to Rock will only receive 3.125% max HP damage. This lasts until the opponent uses Rapid Spin.'

Stealth Rock was indroduced in the 4th generation games, along with Toxic Spikes, as a new entry hazard; in the previous generations, the only entry hazards available were Spikes. However, Stealth Rock has quickly become one of the most significant moves in the metagame; the large number of Pokemon who learn it when compared with the other entry hazards made it much easier to fit into teams. Also, the relative lack of immunities (Only Magic Guard Clefable is immune to Stealth Rock, whilst all Flying types, as well as Pokemon with the ability Levitate and, again, Clefable) and one-turn set-up made it all the more tempting.

Initially, it seemed to be a godsend. Hyped Pokemon such as Salamence, Gyarados and Zapdos could now be worn out by repeated switch-ins, making them much, much easier to handle. Breaking Focus Sashes was invaluable for offensively based teams. The free 12.5% damage allowed the likes of Lucario, Gyarados and Infernape to do enough damage to get past their counters, making an offensive playstyle much more viable and easier to execute effectively. The residual damage on those with Ground immunities is all but essential for stalling or defensively based teams, who can otherwise struggle to wear bulky fliers down.

However, recently there has been some doubt as to whether Stealth Rock does really benefit the metagame. Several highly viable Pokemon are essentially crippled by Stealth Rock; coming in on 75% or in some cases 50% before taking a single attack can make these Pokemon very difficult to utilise well. Whilst for some Pokemon such as Weavile, the damage is largely insignificant, on those Pokemon that have some sort of defensive value to teams, the damage can be game-changing. Whilst normally Salamence would make an excellent Swords Dance Lucario counter thanks to Intimidate, higher speed and a Fighting resistance, coming in on Stealth Rock can put him in range of a +1 Extremespeed. Coming in on Stealth Rock permits Infernape to potentially OHKO Bulky Gyarados with a Nasty Plotted Grass Knot.

Weaknesses to Stealth Rock in OU and BL;

OU (45)
#43: Dragonite
#3: Gyarados
#9: Salamence
#26: Togekiss
#19: Weavile
#39: Yanmega (4x)
#21: Zapdos

15.6% of the Pokemon in the OU metagame are weak to Stealth Rock. Will do some stats factoring in usage at a later date.

BL (62)
#58: Abomasnow
#53: Aerodactyl
#66: Arcanine
#159: Articuno (4x)
#59: Charizard (4x)
#51: Crobat
#202: Entei
#99: Honchkrow
#102: Houndoom
#116: Magmortar
#70: Moltres (4x)
#49: Ninjask (4x)
#131: Pinsir
#111: Regice
#132: Shedinja
#73: Staraptor
#105: Typhlosion

27.4% of the Pokemon in BL are weak to Stealth Rock.

This highlights the fact that Stealth Rock has had a significant effect on the viability of many Pokemon in OU. Out of all the Pokemon who have been decided to be too overpowered for the UU metagame; the proportion of Rock weaknesses to total Pokemon is nearly twice as much in BL when compared to OU. Whilst is could certainly be coincidence (Yeah, 'correlation does not equal causation', whatever) I certainly think that this is strong evidence (note 'evidence', not 'proof') that Stealth Rock is limiting the metagame.

From here, this is all theorymon. Feel free to ignore this, however these are what I percieve would be the most significant early changes in usage patterns in a metagame without Stealth Rock.

Probable 'big' metagame changes without Stealth Rock;

Focus Sash. Without Stealth Rock to break all Focus Sashes on your opponent's team with minimal effort, the 'Focus Sash' team is going to become increasingly popular. Expect to see Focus Sashes regularly on the likes of Lucario, Infernape and Weavile, to guarantee at least one boost. Whilst currently considered a relatively inefficient tactic, it will rocket in usage and is likely to become a much more significant part of the metagame.

Tyranitar. It brings Sandstorm, which essentially neuters Focus Sashers even more easily than Stealth Rock does (Though it does fail to break the Sashes of Rock/Ground/Steel types. However, most of these Pokemon are typically very bulky and would not benefit much from a Focus Sash, the exception of course being Lucario) Of course, the sudden increase of Rock weak Pokemon will also make Choice Band Stone Edge pretty fun to play around with.

Abomasnow/Hail Teams. Stealth Rock is the bane of the hail team, seeing as almost every Ice type in the game (Except Mamoswine) is weak to Rock. With it gone, Abomasnow usage will go up quite considerably, along with it probably the likes of Walrein and Weavile. Hail also breaks Focus Sashes, and has considerably fewer resistances than Sandstorm does. Abomasnow would almost certainly re-enter OU in a metagame without Stealth Rock.

Fighting types, most notably Lucario, Heracross and Machamp. At the moment, these are all so high in usage because Choice Band Close Combat 2HKO's pretty much anything that doesn't resist it. The most common group of Pokemon that do resist it, Flying types (such as Gyarados, Salamence, Zapdos and Moltres) all come in at 75% or less thanks to Stealth Rock. However, if this element was removed, it would be considerably harder for these Fighters to get past their counters and they will fall in usage.

Spinners, most notably Starmie, Forretress, Donphan and Tentacruel. With Stealth Rock gone, and the relative rarity of competent spikers, entry hazards are going to be a much, much less problematic issue for teams to deal with, and only those teams which have real issues with stalling strategies will really need to rely on a spinner. Whilst, of course, all of these Pokemon have uses beyond Rapid Spinning, it will severely limit their usefulness in teams, and as a consequence their usage would fall.

Bulky Flying types; think Zapdos, Gyarados, Togekiss, Moltres, and to a lesser extent Salamence. Without Stealth Rock, these are all immune to all forms of entry hazards, making them much more difficult to take out. It allows them to counter the likes of Infernape, Lucario and Heracross considerably easier, without risking being KO'd thanks to the 25% that Stealth Rock took off before even taking any attacks.

Yanmega. Without Stealth Rock, this thing is going to be much, much harder to stop and will quickly rise in usage. One of the few end-game sweepers who actually has no problems whatsoever with Deoxys-S (It easily outspeeds after two Speed Boosts) without Stealth Rock this thing will almost certainly become one of the most common late-game cleaners.

I personally believe that, in a 'balanced' metagame, the largest number of Pokemon will be viable; statistically this is interpreted as the largest number of Pokemon in the OU tier. Whilst there is very little conclusive proof either way that Stealth Rock reduces the variety in the metagame, this is predominantly due to the fact that we have minimal or no experience of a D/P metagame without Stealth Rock. Whilst I recognise the higher priority of other issues such as Garchomp's tier status, the UU tier and various clauses, I think that a testing period on Shoddybattle without the move Stealth Rock would be beneficial in finding out as to whether Stealth Rock limits the metagame or broadens it, and whether we should or should not be playing without it.

Discuss.

In my opinion, the arguments for and against Stealth Rock cancel each other out pretty much. It keeps Zapdos, Togekiss, Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados, Yanmega and other threats in check, while keeping Moltres, Regice and a few friends pretty much away from standard play. They also give stallish Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Swampert something to do in their spare time.

Therefore, I believe it's best to stick with Stealth Rock as "part of the game".

While I don't think Stealth Rock should be banned for reasons Mekkah stated (i.e. it'd unbalance a lot etcetc), it would be interesting to have a few games without any rocks...

While it keeps threats in check, none of those Pokemon suddenly become uber due to the lack of stealth rock, they just become more difficult to handle (except maybe Salamence. i don't know about anyone else but the thought of Salamence in a metagame without stealth rock scares the shit out of me). I believe that making some Pokemon more difficult to handle is a reasonable price to pay in order to increase the viability of several Pokemon.

as annoying things go, rocks are annoying, BUT I find yanmega ridiculous (free speed boosts, protect, big STAB) and the fact rocks keeps it away is a very good thing.

This idea needs to be tested for a month or so on the Smogon server. If the metagame does have a drastic shift with SR out of the way ( and this shift is positive in nature ) than it should be up for debate about being banned.

If we are merely speaking Theory then I am for the banning of SR. It only takes one turn to setup whereas all other entry hazards take 2 or three and can deal a massive 50% off of a Pokemon's health, this destroys Charizard and Moltres ( one could argue that a metagame with SR involved would allow Ho-oh because of this problem ). SR is easy to set-up, pretty much everyone can do it, but the options for a rapid spinner are extremely limited. This causes the ever dreaded Over-centralization of the Metagame.

I agree with Colin's logic in the Policy Review thread. It may or may not benefit the metagame, we don't know, but since the metagame is playable as it is there's no reason to ban it.

Stealth Rock doesn't only make pokemon unusable, it makes types unusable. With SR, anything with a weakness to rock is basically unplayable, barrign dragons, things that only hit once anyways, and things that are only leads. Over 1/4 of BL is SR weak, many there possibly only because of that. Stealth Rock, for one PP, has the potential to do more damage than any move in the game in a few quick turns, to multiple pokemon. I also wonder, if SR was gone, and ice types became playable, would Chomp be less dangerous, as it would suddenly have things that threaten it that don't take 25-50% when coming in.

Here is something people are forgetting, sr takes time to put up. Pokemon on teams have the sole purpose as to put it up. Right now the metagame is finally balancing out again, with wobba and maybe/hopefully garchomp to uber. When everything settles down it would be okay to test out, but we really don't need this. Also, stealth rock is a move, it doesn't involve luck, and there are no tiers for moves. Game freak put stealth rock in the game so I think it is something we have to deal with as battlers. If it involved hax, then thats another story, but it doesn't so there is nothing we have to worry about.

Admittedly, Salamence would be even more ideal to use on any team that it is already, with the defensive Dragon Dance + Roost set freely switching in with guaranteed maximim HP; not including the attack it switches in against. We rely on Stealth Rock and Life Orb recoil damage for Salamence opposition more often than not, so with a Salamence that can maximize its sets effectively, knowing that it can influence the game with full HP, is even more scarier than before. Jabba touched on this scary thought earlier, and I daresay he hit the nail on the coffin.

While Stealth Rock in fact keeps flying threats in check, it also limits the usefulness of potential counters for them. For example, Abomasnow would be a lot more effective Zapdos counter without the rocks. Yanmega could be used for revenge kills instead of leading roles, so Gyarados and Salamence would have less chances of a succesful sweep.

Actually, Spinners are less useful with the rocks. Is it worth to waste one turn of spinning, just to get them on your field again when the Stealth Rocks user comes back?

Actually, Spinners are less useful with the rocks.

Click to expand...

Without Stealth Rock, the only reason to use Rapid Spin is Toxic Spikes/Spikes, neither of which are nearly as common as Stealth Rock would be, and the former of which has a fix that only takes one switch from your favourite Poison-type, such as the laughably popular Roserade, or everyone's favourite tier shifter Tentacruel. Taking away Stealth Rock is taking away a use for Rapid Spin.

To me, the Stealth Rock argument boils down to people being pissed off that they can't use the Pokémon they're comfortable using. Good battlers find ways around everything, even Stealth Rock. Just like you have a ton of options against evasion boosting moves (Aerial Ace, Aura Sphere, Haze, No Guard), there are options to guard against Stealth Rock users (Taunt, Rapid Spin, fast status inflicters).

It's something you have to live with. I don't think banning moves is beneficial at all, and it's just a way to keep the status quo at a place where the players were comfortable before rather than making them get comfortable with the new rules.

@Mekkah: They're often forced to switch right after they Spin, even against the SR user. Starmie, Donphan, Claydol, Tentacruel, all can't stay in against Swampert, for example, who'll just SR again on their switch.

It's best to just accept them and build a team around it (just what happens today, I barely see any spinners).


Without SR, people would have to use Spikes again for switch-in damages. So they could be the good ol' spinners they were at Advance.

Still, the metagame is playable as is, with Stealth Rock in it. Banning should only be a last resort.

For those that have said "The metagame is playable now, don't ban it", then what is your logic for unbanning? If unbanning a pokemon is supposed to add diversity, or more "playability" to the metagame, then we test it. Why shouldn't the same apply here? Yes, the metagame is playable right now with Stealth Rock, but who's to say that it wouldn't be "more" playable without it?

The way I see it, we can't tell which metagame we would like more, with or without Stealth Rock. I would really like a chance to test a SRless metagame, to see just how dominant these flyers are. Just my opinion.

I find it ridiculous that players will waste an entire pokemon just to set up Stealth Rocks. All those Azelf, Deoxys-E and Aerodactyl leads are a complete waste of a pokemon in my opinion. You can set up Stealth Rock later on in the match, and still probably have most of your team left.

Starting off 5-6 really isn't worth it just to have SR up. I lead with Heatran, and he sets up SR as the Azelfs do, then they Psychic as I Fire Blast, and I send in Gengar on the explosion. Both teams have Stealth Rock set up, they lost their Azelf, and I have an 80% Heatran and an 87% Gengar to show for it. Is Stealth Rock really that important that it's worth sacrificing a pokemon for it?

I think in a low-tier OU/BL/UU format, Stealth Rock being banned might make things interesting...it might be worth testing both sides in such a format.

In OU? That's a coinflip honestly.

As for Stealth Rock being worth a sacrifice...no, the Azelf player misplayed that one. I would've brought in any number of things on the obvious fire blast, though most of them are ruined by Stealth Rock. I really don't know, but I think testing various metagames without Stealth Rock is worth it.

IggyBot said:

For those that have said "The metagame is playable now, don't ban it", then what is your logic for unbanning? If unbanning a pokemon is supposed to add diversity, or more "playability" to the metagame, then we test it. Why shouldn't the same apply here? Yes, the metagame is playable right now with Stealth Rock, but who's to say that it wouldn't be "more" playable without it?

The way I see it, we can't tell which metagame we would like more, with or without Stealth Rock. I would really like a chance to test a SRless metagame, to see just how dominant these flyers are. Just my opinion.

Click to expand...

But why should we strive for "more playability"? By that logic we'd HAVE to test out every single combination of Pokemon unbanned in a metagame, and find out which one yeilds the least centralized metagame. We're obviously not going to do that, we're just going to ban things if they are a clearly overcentralized presence, so why should we test out Stealth Rock?

IggyBot said:

For those that have said "The metagame is playable now, don't ban it", then what is your logic for unbanning? If unbanning a pokemon is supposed to add diversity, or more "playability" to the metagame, then we test it. Why shouldn't the same apply here? Yes, the metagame is playable right now with Stealth Rock, but who's to say that it wouldn't be "more" playable without it?

Click to expand...

The other point of unbanning things (that people seem to ignore) is that it simplifies the rules, so by unbanning things, you kill two birds with one stone.

Kittymew said:

As for Stealth Rock being worth a sacrifice...no, the Azelf player misplayed that one. I would've brought in any number of things on the obvious fire blast, though most of them are ruined by Stealth Rock. I really don't know, but I think testing various metagames without Stealth Rock is worth it.

Click to expand...

It's not just one player. Every single Azelf lead operates like this. I have never seen them not do it this way. Deoxys-E too, except I keep Heatran in for the second hit. It's so predictable. Thing is, I got up Stealth Rock too, but I didn't lose a pokemon over it. He did.

I've been as high as #11 on the ladder, so don't tell me only noobs sac their azelf for rocks.

NeverUsed

Kittymew said:

I think in a low-tier OU/BL/UU format, Stealth Rock being banned might make things interesting...it might be worth testing both sides in such a format.

In OU? That's a coinflip honestly.

Click to expand...

Yes. Stealth Rock is in need of banning from the Neverused Metagame (UU's kinda a coinflip as well). NU lacks rapid spinner almost entirely! (Delibird just gets shitted on when it comes in to Spin - why would you even have this on your team?) Also that NU doesn't really have very many SR resistant pokemon and is overrun by Bugs and Bug-Fliers who are completely decimated by Stealth Rock.

So NU needs to rid of SR, at the least.

As I see it, the argument for banning Stealth Rock from OU is even weaker than the argument for banning Garchomp (which I also don't think should be done). Merely because a move is widely used and banning it would significantly change the metagame doesn't mean it should be banned. Earthquake is widely used and banning it would significantly change the metagame, but nobody suggests banning Earthquake.

My problem with SR is that it takes only only one turn to set up at full power, and nothing can come in without taking damage. Spikes and Toxic Spikes are balanced because they take multiple turns to set up. In addition, there are ways to circumvent the damage they do, like switching a Poison type into TS. Not only does SR not have the disadvantages of the others, it has a type, meaning it can do huge damage just for switching in the wrong type. This makes Flying, Fire, Bug, and Ice types very difficult to play, and combinations of them near impossible. It severely restricts the usage of Pokemon like Yanmega and Moltres who might otherwise see more play and in different roles. The problem gets worse as you go down in tiers and there are less good Spinners, and the ones that exist often have SR weak.

I'm not saying it should be banned outright. It helps balance out Gyarados and Salamence, among others. However, that ones easy and available move is so incredibly effective deserves a look.

Rapid Spin sucked last generation, and this time around it's nearly useless. You expose one of only a few pokemon to potentially two turns of damage to come in and use a move that's easily blocked, and even then all it takes is one turn for the opponent to set Stealth Rock back up again.