I’m an offensive type of guy. I love throwing Choice Scarf or Life Orb on any Pokemon and running with it. Well, how can we promote offensive strategies on a competitive Pokemon site? By discussing HOW to be offensive, of course!
Enter this topic. Let's talk about sweepers first. What prevents our sweepers from sweeping? In DP, it isn't just physical or special tanks with the proper moves (Gliscor with Aerial Ace or Ice Fang for Heracross or Salamence, for example); the advent of Choice Scarf and Focus Sash has significantly increased the number of Pokemon able to be viable "checks" against sweeping.
So is sweeping even possible in DP? How do Pokemon like Swords Dance Lucario / Weavile, Nasty Plot Azelf, Mixape, or DD Gyarados / Salamence manage to deal significant damage to a team?
Well, one strategy is to use a "lure." A lure is any Pokemon that manages to draw out a potential "problem" Pokemon, and then defeat it to open the way for your sweeper.
Now, for a "lure" to be effective, it has to be able to both lure the troublesome Pokemon in, AND deal significant damage back (significant being either a KO or enough so that the sweeper can hit hard enough with the NVE move to KO) or cripple it in some way to open up the sweep (for example, Thunder Waving a Choice Scarf Heatran will prevent it from checking SD Lucario). This generally means that lures have to carry a "surprise" factor. After all, why would your opponent keep that trouble Pokemon in the first place?
Let me give an example. Gliscor has an annoying ability to stop CB Heracross and SD Lucario (at least those not carrying HP Ice). Plenty of teams carry Gliscor and would not hesitate at all to switch it into these Pokemon.
So what Pokemon could I use that would "lure" Gliscor in and possess a "surprise" move that would kill it? Well let's see...my best bet would be a physical attacker (without STAB Water or Ice) with access to an Ice move. Or perhaps a Pokemon with Explosion and enough Attack to ensure a OHKO...hmmm...
One option could be a Tyranitar bulky enough to take an Earthquake, yet Special enough to OHKO with Ice Beam. Actually, because Tyranitar learns Fire Blast as well, having it stop Skarmory / Forretress is a cool advantage as well. To further your "lure" strategy, you would have to make sure that your Tyranitar had neither Leftovers nor Life Orb and gave the image of being Choiced (probably scarf because without Band it won't do enough lol). Looks like Expert Belt is the ideal item for me here. Now I need an ideal EV spread.
Well, after running some calculations, looks like 264 SpA is the minimum required to OHKO 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory with Fire Blast and Expert Belt. However, since I will also be using this as a check against Gliscor, I am going to have to comfortably survive an Earthquake while remaining viable on average. I've decided a move set of Crunch (STAB and prevents Calm Mind / Thunder Wave Cresselia from stopping you), Earthquake (hits Heatran who resists the other three attacks), Ice Beam (for Gliscor / Salamence) and Fire Blast (for Skarmory / Forretress) is what I am going for.
A spread of 184 HP / 36 Atk / 108 Def / 152 SpA / 28 Spe EVs with a Relaxed nature gives me 387 HP / 313 Atk / 311 Def / 264 SpA / 236 SpD / 148 Spe. The Defense and HP allow me to always survive an Adamant Life Orb Earthquake from Gliscor after Stealth Rock, and the Special Attack allows me to OHKO Gliscor / Skarmory. The Speed EVs allow me to always outspeed 4 Speed Machamp / Blissey, and the rest are dumped into Attack.
So let me review my Pokemon. I have a MixTar with a viable move set and acceptable EVs that are geared for a specific purpose, yet not overly centralized. By carrying Expert Belt, I create the facade of carrying a Choice item, falsely luring the opponent into being comfortable with keeping in his Gliscor after he switches into a Crunch / Earthquake.
Since Ice Beam always OHKOs Gliscor and Fire Blast will OHKO Skarmory on average, and since I create a facade of Choice, I think this Mixtar helps me effectively lure in some potential threats to my Lucario, and it also helps me offensively and defensively against other Pokemon that may trouble Lucario, such as Cresselia / Celebi, Heatran and Hippowdon.
So that's the mentality (in broad terms obviously) that goes into making a "lure."
But that's just one lure for one sweeper...there are, I am sure, a plethora of lures for a plethora of sweepers...so creative minds out there...let's get creative!!
However, to ensure this thread is a helpful contribution to the site, I am going to have to strictly guide the conversation, and not allow examples to come in arbitrarily and eventually have it become cluttered like the "Creative moveset" topic.
So the conversation is going to run like this:
I am going to provide a random sweeper / offensive Pokemon, and we are going to first discuss what stops it. Then we'll discuss possible lures, and then we'll try and work out final sets for these lures, emphasizing both the need to not become overcentralized with the "lure" purpose and the need to maintain some sort of "surprise" factor.
During the process, if you want the next Pokemon we discuss to be something specifically, you are welcome to PM me with suggestions, and I will post the most thoughtful suggestion's Pokemon for the next "project."
We'll start with something easy...something that everyone here I am sure is familiar with, especially if playing on the Suspect Ladder: Life Orb Swords Dance Lucario.
I'll start with the set I suppose...
Lucario@Life Orb
~Swords Dance
~Close Combat
~Extremespeed
~Crunch
Nature: Adamant
IV: 29 HP
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Everyone knows how versatile Lucario is. Lucario can obviously run different variations of this set to deal with different lures, but I’m providing the set that beats the “most.”
For immediate issues I see Gliscor switching in easily and stopping the sweep. I see Gengar switching in after a Pokemon has gone down and stopping the sweep. I see Gyarados / Salamence (defensive versions anyway) switching in and stopping the sweep.
Choice Scarf Pokemon not hit hard by Extremespeed, like Scarf Metagross can switch in and stop the sweep.
Continue providing potential problems, and once I see we are reaching a limit or starting to "stretch," I'll open up discussion for potential "lures" for these Pokemon. I’ve already worked on one for luring in Gliscor / Hippowdon, but that’s just one.
Let's go!!
O, one last thing, I'm not really interested if you don't think "lures" are a viable competitive concept. That's not what this topic is about. If you don't think they work, kindly do not clutter my topic with your sentiments.
I know they work, I use them on my teams and I win consistently against high level of competition. This topic is for the discussion of lures to support sweeping, not for the viability of a lure.
Thank you very much.
Enter this topic. Let's talk about sweepers first. What prevents our sweepers from sweeping? In DP, it isn't just physical or special tanks with the proper moves (Gliscor with Aerial Ace or Ice Fang for Heracross or Salamence, for example); the advent of Choice Scarf and Focus Sash has significantly increased the number of Pokemon able to be viable "checks" against sweeping.
So is sweeping even possible in DP? How do Pokemon like Swords Dance Lucario / Weavile, Nasty Plot Azelf, Mixape, or DD Gyarados / Salamence manage to deal significant damage to a team?
Well, one strategy is to use a "lure." A lure is any Pokemon that manages to draw out a potential "problem" Pokemon, and then defeat it to open the way for your sweeper.
Now, for a "lure" to be effective, it has to be able to both lure the troublesome Pokemon in, AND deal significant damage back (significant being either a KO or enough so that the sweeper can hit hard enough with the NVE move to KO) or cripple it in some way to open up the sweep (for example, Thunder Waving a Choice Scarf Heatran will prevent it from checking SD Lucario). This generally means that lures have to carry a "surprise" factor. After all, why would your opponent keep that trouble Pokemon in the first place?
Let me give an example. Gliscor has an annoying ability to stop CB Heracross and SD Lucario (at least those not carrying HP Ice). Plenty of teams carry Gliscor and would not hesitate at all to switch it into these Pokemon.
So what Pokemon could I use that would "lure" Gliscor in and possess a "surprise" move that would kill it? Well let's see...my best bet would be a physical attacker (without STAB Water or Ice) with access to an Ice move. Or perhaps a Pokemon with Explosion and enough Attack to ensure a OHKO...hmmm...
One option could be a Tyranitar bulky enough to take an Earthquake, yet Special enough to OHKO with Ice Beam. Actually, because Tyranitar learns Fire Blast as well, having it stop Skarmory / Forretress is a cool advantage as well. To further your "lure" strategy, you would have to make sure that your Tyranitar had neither Leftovers nor Life Orb and gave the image of being Choiced (probably scarf because without Band it won't do enough lol). Looks like Expert Belt is the ideal item for me here. Now I need an ideal EV spread.
Well, after running some calculations, looks like 264 SpA is the minimum required to OHKO 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory with Fire Blast and Expert Belt. However, since I will also be using this as a check against Gliscor, I am going to have to comfortably survive an Earthquake while remaining viable on average. I've decided a move set of Crunch (STAB and prevents Calm Mind / Thunder Wave Cresselia from stopping you), Earthquake (hits Heatran who resists the other three attacks), Ice Beam (for Gliscor / Salamence) and Fire Blast (for Skarmory / Forretress) is what I am going for.
A spread of 184 HP / 36 Atk / 108 Def / 152 SpA / 28 Spe EVs with a Relaxed nature gives me 387 HP / 313 Atk / 311 Def / 264 SpA / 236 SpD / 148 Spe. The Defense and HP allow me to always survive an Adamant Life Orb Earthquake from Gliscor after Stealth Rock, and the Special Attack allows me to OHKO Gliscor / Skarmory. The Speed EVs allow me to always outspeed 4 Speed Machamp / Blissey, and the rest are dumped into Attack.
So let me review my Pokemon. I have a MixTar with a viable move set and acceptable EVs that are geared for a specific purpose, yet not overly centralized. By carrying Expert Belt, I create the facade of carrying a Choice item, falsely luring the opponent into being comfortable with keeping in his Gliscor after he switches into a Crunch / Earthquake.
Since Ice Beam always OHKOs Gliscor and Fire Blast will OHKO Skarmory on average, and since I create a facade of Choice, I think this Mixtar helps me effectively lure in some potential threats to my Lucario, and it also helps me offensively and defensively against other Pokemon that may trouble Lucario, such as Cresselia / Celebi, Heatran and Hippowdon.
So that's the mentality (in broad terms obviously) that goes into making a "lure."
But that's just one lure for one sweeper...there are, I am sure, a plethora of lures for a plethora of sweepers...so creative minds out there...let's get creative!!
However, to ensure this thread is a helpful contribution to the site, I am going to have to strictly guide the conversation, and not allow examples to come in arbitrarily and eventually have it become cluttered like the "Creative moveset" topic.
So the conversation is going to run like this:
I am going to provide a random sweeper / offensive Pokemon, and we are going to first discuss what stops it. Then we'll discuss possible lures, and then we'll try and work out final sets for these lures, emphasizing both the need to not become overcentralized with the "lure" purpose and the need to maintain some sort of "surprise" factor.
During the process, if you want the next Pokemon we discuss to be something specifically, you are welcome to PM me with suggestions, and I will post the most thoughtful suggestion's Pokemon for the next "project."
We'll start with something easy...something that everyone here I am sure is familiar with, especially if playing on the Suspect Ladder: Life Orb Swords Dance Lucario.
I'll start with the set I suppose...
Lucario@Life Orb
~Swords Dance
~Close Combat
~Extremespeed
~Crunch
Nature: Adamant
IV: 29 HP
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Everyone knows how versatile Lucario is. Lucario can obviously run different variations of this set to deal with different lures, but I’m providing the set that beats the “most.”
For immediate issues I see Gliscor switching in easily and stopping the sweep. I see Gengar switching in after a Pokemon has gone down and stopping the sweep. I see Gyarados / Salamence (defensive versions anyway) switching in and stopping the sweep.
Choice Scarf Pokemon not hit hard by Extremespeed, like Scarf Metagross can switch in and stop the sweep.
Continue providing potential problems, and once I see we are reaching a limit or starting to "stretch," I'll open up discussion for potential "lures" for these Pokemon. I’ve already worked on one for luring in Gliscor / Hippowdon, but that’s just one.
Let's go!!
O, one last thing, I'm not really interested if you don't think "lures" are a viable competitive concept. That's not what this topic is about. If you don't think they work, kindly do not clutter my topic with your sentiments.
I know they work, I use them on my teams and I win consistently against high level of competition. This topic is for the discussion of lures to support sweeping, not for the viability of a lure.
Thank you very much.
