DP Venusaur

Caelum

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I was originally going to post 2 sets, one Sword Dance and this, but J7r probably wants to do the Sword Dance set so I'll leave that to him. Anyway, I've been using this set on the UU ladder to a lot of success and I thought it deserved a mention since Venusaur is quite powerful in UU with this set. Anyway, here it is. Credit for the second set to J7r, I just added it to my post for the sake or organization.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/venusaur

[SET]
name: Sub Salac
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Growth
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Hidden Power Rock
item: Salac Berry
ability: Overgrow
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
ivs: 30 HP

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set takes advantage of Venusaur's ability to force switches due to the opponent fearing either a Choice Specs Leaf Storm or Sleep Powder. Ideally Venusaur should Substitute on the switch and proceed by using Growth, which raises Venusaur's respectable Special Attack one stage. Often Venusaur will find itself capable of using Growth more then once because of its defensive bulk. Venusaur should then Substitute down activating the Salac Berry and Overgrow and proceed to sweep with boosted STAB Energy Ball. Hidden Power Rock complements this set by allowing Venusaur to damage Flying and Fire types such as Altaria and Ninetales.</p>

<p>The given EVs are a basic sweeper spread and the 30 HP IV allows for the Salac Berry to activate after 3 Substitutes. Modest can also be used over Timid for extra power but the loss in Speed rarely makes it worth it. A Petaya Berry is a decent option over a Salac Berry but without any Speed boosts Venusaur's ability to sweep will be hindered. A different Hidden Power is, of course, usable over Hidden Power Rock if hitting a particular target is more important.</p>


[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Sleep Powder
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Seed Bomb
move 4: Earthquake / Double-Edge
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With Venusaur's often overlooked physical movepool, this set can wreak quite a bit of havoc if your opponent is unprepared. In the lower tiers, where Venusaur shines, its 80 base Speed and nearly unique physical type coverage change Venusaur from a Special-based tank into an attacking monster that is very difficult to stop.</p>

<p>The basic strategy with this set is to use Sleep Powder on your first turn, as soon as you get in. By boosting Venusaur's speed through EVs and nature, you will find yourself faster than a large percentage of lower-tiered pokemon, making this much easier. Once your opponent is asleep, use the free turn to Swords Dance as your opponent either switches or waits helplessly as their pokemon is asleep. Once you have that +2 Atk boost, just take aim at your opponent and fire away. Seed Bomb is the move of choice as it gets STAB and has its power boosted even more by Venusaur's ability, Overgrow. Earthquake is for most things that resist Grass such as Vileplume, Muk, other Venusaur and especially Steel and Fire-types.</p>

<p>Even though this set has very good type coverage, there are a few common threats that can counter it quite handily. The most notable counter is Altaria, who is immune to Earthquake and has a 4x resistance to Seed Bomb. Meganium, Cacturne and Shiftry also resist both moves on this set. These few problem Pokemon can all be taken care of if you opt to use Double-Edge as the last move over Earthquake. Even though you will lose coverage against Poison and Fire-types, the ability to hit your counters for neutral damage may be more appealing. Be careful if you choose that route, as it compromises Venusaur's excellent defenses by giving recoil damage.</p>

<p>Maxing out Attack and Speed on this set is the best option. You will need all the Attack you can get, and maximizing Speed is very beneficial in the lower tiers. The item you choose is entirely a style preference. If you aren't comfortable with just 82 base Attack, Life Orb can be a great option to give your moves some extra power. Even though it detracts from Venusaur's great defenses, some recoil damage may actually help in some cases due to Venusaur's Overgrow. Leftovers is the recommended item, though, as it actually lets Venusaur maintain some of the defensive prowess that makes this set such a threat to begin with.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Most Steel types can switch in relatively easily, only having to watch out for the occasional super-effective Hidden Power. Heatran is the number one counter here, resisting it's STAB attacks, and only has to fear the very rare HP Ground. Jirachi, Metagross, Skarmory, Lucario, Scizor, and Bronzong are all able to switch into Venusaur's Grass and Poison attacks with no problem at all and begin their respective set-ups. Gengar is an excellent Venusaur counter as it resists its entire offensive arsenal and can status Venusaur. Other Poison types like Weezing are also problematic but less so since many of them are slow and can be slept and then Leech Seeded (with the obvious exception of Crobat). Salamence and Dragonite are not bothered by anything but Hidden Power Ice and Choice Specs Sludge Bomb and will force Venusaur to switch as well. Celebi can come in on Leaf Storm or Leech Seed and compel you to flee with the threat of Psychic; however, it should be noted that Celebi will be 2HKO'd by Sludge Bomb. Blissey can wall every special set but is susceptible to Leech Seed and the Sword Dance set. Cresselia can beat any set and wear it down with Ice Beam or Psychic. The rather obscure Moltres beat Venusaur soundly as well.</p>

<p>In UU, true counters are more difficult to find because of Venusaur's unpredictability. Drifblim is an all around good counter to most sets although it's vulnerable to Leech Seed. For the Sword Dance set, Rotom can come in on an unboosted Seed Bomb and burn Venusaur with Will-O-Wisp. Jumpluff can come in on a Seed Bomb and Encore it or put it to sleep. Special sets are harder to counter, particularly the Choice Specs set, and generally are beaten by prediction. Articuno is an excellent counter and will beat most sets with it's ability to Roost off any damage it takes. Altaria is a good counter to any special set, sporting a 4x Grass resist, but will fall to HP Ice. Ninetales can come in as well with its Grass resistance and good Special Defense, but it can be 2HKO'd by a Growth boosted HP Rock. Flareon can switch into the Choice Specs or Scarf set but will struggle against any other variant. For the Growth set, Clefable can Encore either Substitute or Growth and proceed to set up itself or force Venusaur out. Noctowl's great Special Defense and resistant to Grass makes it an ideal counter to special Venusaur. Noctowl also has the ability to Whirlwind away Venusaur's Growth's. Muk can switch into most variants of Venusaur, but must be careful not to switch into an Earthquake, and works particularly well if it's carrying Ice Punch.</p>
 
"<p>This set takes advantage of Venusaur's ability to force switches due to the opponent fearing either a Choice Specs Leaf Storm or Sleep Powder."

"Often (removed times) Venusaur will find itself capable of using Growth more then once because of its defensive bulk."

"Venusaur should then Substitute down activating the Salac"

Nice set, reminds me a lot of SubAgility Empoleon, which is a complete beast.
 
Well, instead of posting a new thread with this set, I'll just add in my Swords Dance Venusaur set here for discussion.

This is a set I have used to a lot of success on the UU ladder and I really haven't seen anyone else use it. In fact, the analysis currently says "Swords Dance is an option for a surprising physical set, but the combination of Seed Bomb and Earthquake has rather dismal type coverage and makes it difficult to use with success." This may be somewhat true in OU (although it really isn't), now that Venusaur is UU/BL this set can really cause damage.

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Sleep Powder
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Seed Bomb
move 4: Earthquake / Double-Edge
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With Venusaur's often overlooked physical movepool, this set can wreak quite a bit of havoc if your opponent is unprepared. In the lower tiers, where Venusaur shines, its 80 base Speed and nearly unique physical type coverage change Venusaur from a Special-based tank into an attacking monster that is very difficult to stop.</p>

<p>The basic strategy with this set is to use Sleep Powder on your first turn, as soon as you get in. By boosting Venusaur's speed through EVs and nature, you will find yourself faster than a large percentage of lower-tiered pokemon, making this much easier. Once your opponent is asleep, use the free turn to Swords Dance as your opponent either switches or waits helplessly as their pokemon is asleep. Once you have that +2 Atk boost, just take aim at your opponent and fire away. Seed Bomb is the move of choice as it gets STAB and has its power boosted even more by Venusaur's ability, Overgrow. Earthquake is for most things that resist Grass such as Vileplume, Muk, other Venusaur and especially Steel and Fire-types.</p>

<p>Even though this set has very good type coverage, there are a few common threats that can counter it quite handily. The most notable counter is Altaria, who is immune to Earthquake and has a 4x resistance to Seed Bomb. Meganium, Cacturne and Shiftry also resist both moves on this set. These few problem Pokemon can all be taken care of if you opt to use Double-Edge as the last move over Earthquake. Even though you will lose coverage against Poison and Fire-types, the ability to hit your counters for neutral damage may be more appealing. Be careful if you choose that route, as it compromises Venusaur's excellent defenses by giving recoil damage.</p>

<p>Maxing out Attack and Speed on this set is the best option. You will need all the Attack you can get, and maximizing Speed is very beneficial in the lower tiers. The item you choose is entirely a style preference. If you aren't comfortable with just 82 base Attack, Life Orb can be a great option to give your moves some extra power. Even though it detracts from Venusaur's great defenses, some recoil damage may actually help in some cases due to Venusaur's Overgrow. Leftovers is the recommended item, though, as it actually lets Venusaur maintain some of the defensive prowess that makes this set such a threat to begin with.</p>


This is just a first draft I made so I could post it here in this thread. If there's anything missing, let me know. I was considering having Lum Berry as an option too but tbqh I've never really found a situation where I would need it in my experiences with the set.
 
I guess another thing to add: Double-Edge could be useful over Sleep Powder too. Although it essentially loses the ability to cripple a Pokemon, Venusaur can easily cause switches anyways and still wreak havoc without worrying about coverage.
 
Awesome set J7r, and the "other options" comments are completely off this set does murder stuff in UU. I actually read it over and didn't find a single thing wrong :p. I think the set should be called Sleep N' Sweep though because I'm lame like that. I also think it's necessary to mention the obligatory Return option in the set comments when talking about Double Edge. I think we both made the Venusaur analysis much better :).

Oh, and since both of them (or at least hopefully one) of these will be added I figure it mine as well be brought up that Synthesis is a lot more viable on the bulky Venusaur set now since it doesn't have to really worry about Sandstream/Hail (which I believe won't be an issue even after testing since I believe Hippo/Abom with be BL) so the Other Options comments possibly could be edited to reflect that.
 
Mention on SD Venusaur that only 4 Pokémon in UU resist Grass / Normal, and all but Drifblim are a joke anyway.
 
Nevermind.

Still, aren't all three moves viable on the Sword Dancer or am I completely missing something? (By ditching Sleep Powder).
 
this post is for jrrrrrrr's and Aldaron's purposes...

don't delete, caelum can you edit jrrrrrrr's set into your main post and focus this on updating venusaur's total analysis?

anyway, site doesn't represent
 
I did that Aldaron. Since (hopefully) both of these sets will be added I figure I mine as well throw in a new counters section as well since I felt the counters section was a little lacking. Can anyone gets some ideas going for UU counters to Venusaur since I'm really drawing a blank to a consistent counter (I can think of ones for individual sets but not overall)?

Edit: J7r, you are a mod now correct (or was it temp)? You can edit my post I believe, so if you want to update your portion of the analysis with anything go right ahead and do it directly in my post.
 
Can anyone gets some ideas going for UU counters to Venusaur since I'm really drawing a blank to a consistent counter (I can think of ones for individual sets but not overall)?

I'm not sure Venusar has a solid counter that covers all sets, at least no one in the UU/BL discussion thread could come up with one.
 
rotom for phsyical, faster, and can burn, and if he's not boosted, SB isn't doing much shit.

for special, clefable probably, especially encore ones, or cm ones could still win i suppose. drifblim is pretty dangerous for both as it can set up just as easily.
 
The Physical set is easier to beat/counter because of Venusaur's low Atk stat. It will get that first kill, but it usually 2HKOs threats, allowing things like Rotom to come in. I've found that most Rotoms that use W-o-W don't actually use enough Speed to cripple Venu before it deals massive damage. Altaria is great, Cacturne and Meganium are both excellent counters, Shedinja destroys you, Weezing does the same thing as Rotom except it also resists Grass, and any Flying-type will really give that set trouble, especially without Double-Edge.

The Special set is much harder to counter, since it usually comes down to "prediction". Clefable doesnt want to come in on Specs Leaf Storms, especially when Venusaur is usually faster. Altaria again is a great counter, so is Ninetales with its excellent SpDef and Grass resistance.
 
Alright, added a counters section. It's a bit long (I think) so some advice on what to cut out would be nice.
 
I know you probably don't want anything to add anything else to the counter section but I think Noctowl probably deserves a mention for special varients.
 
Ah, nice catch ODDish. Can't believe I forgot Noctowl (he's underrated as a special wall :p). Added.

So, any more comments on the sets themselves guys or even on grammar/spelling corrections either J7r or I missed?
 
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