Salamence (Full Revamp)+

I will be updating the sections without commentary over the next two days. I should be done by Sunday at the worst . Also, my computer sometimes doesn't "save" things correctly so that's partly why I'm posting lol.

Thanks to Great Sage for some excellent assistance with this so far, he did an excellent job.

[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
item: Life Orb
nature: Naughty / Naive
evs: 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>The Dragon Dance set is one of Salamence's most dangerous options and is incredibly effective at sweeping towards the end of a match or breaking the mid-game wide open. Salamence is reasonably sturdy and sports a number of key resistances, including immunity to Ground-type attacks, so it should have no problem finding an opportunity to use Dragon Dance. STAB Outrage is extremely powerful and thus a fairly obvious choice; after a single Dragon Dance and with Life Orb, it is capable of at worst 2HKOing almost every Pokemon available in the OU tier, including the Steel-types that resist it. Earthquake complements Outrage well, covering most Steel-types such as Heatran and Metagross that resist Dragon; it also provides a good attacking option when Salamence isn't ready to use Outrage, such as during the beginning of a game. Fire Blast handles the very defensive Steel-types that Earthquake doesn't affect significantly, such as Skarmory and Forretress, and OHKOs Scizor; Stone Edge doesn't do nearly as much against Skarmory, but will OHKO the standard physically defensive Zapdos and offensive Gyarados (taking Intimidate into account) after a Dragon Dance. Dragon Claw is a perfectly usable option in the final slot for a secondary STAB in situations where you prefer to not lock yourself into Outrage. If you opt for Dragon Claw, it is suggested that you couple Salamence with Magnezone support to eliminate bulkier Steel-types.</p>

<p>The nature and EVs given are for use with Fire Blast. The small Special Attack investment allows Salamence, with its respectable base 110 Special Attack, to always OHKO a full health maximum HP, minimum Special Defense Impish Skarmory. If one elects to use Stone Edge or Dragon Claw, a 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe spread with an Adamant or Jolly nature will suffice. The choice between the Attack-boosting and the Speed-boosting nature depends partially on personal preference. The Attack-boosting nature is recommended if the set contains Stone Edge so Salamence can OHKO physically defensive Zapdos after a Dragon Dance, but the Speed-boosting nature often proves helpful with Fire Blast. While it may seem that Salamence would have more than enough Speed to sweep effectively after a Dragon Dance, a Speed-boosting nature prevents the possibility that Pokemon like Modest Choice Scarf Gengar, Timid Choice Scarf Roserade, and Jolly Choice Scarf Lucario might stand in its way. Additionally, a Speed-boosting nature ensures that Salamence ties with Zapdos, Jirachi, Celebi, and even other Salamence at worst.</p>

<p>Life Orb is the preferred item because its 30% power boost offers Salamence the opportunity to OHKO many Pokemon it otherwise wouldn't be able to, such as Zapdos and Gyarados. However, it offers no defensive properties, and even detracts from Salamence's HP every time it attacks; as such, Yache Berry and Lum Berry are options for more conservative players. Yache Berry will let Salamence survive most unSTABed Ice attacks, but unlike its Swords Dancing Dragon counterpart Garchomp, Salamence has Dragon Dance, whose Speed-boosting effect lessens the danger from faster Pokemon with Ice attacks; however, Yache Berry is still helpful against Ice Shard users like Mamoswine, bulky Water-types that won't be OHKOed by Outrage, and extremely fast Pokemon that will outrun Salamence even after a Dragon Dance. Lum Berry is another useful defensive item that will heal Salamence if it inadvertently is paralyzed, burned, or put to sleep.</p>

[SET]
name: Classic MixMence
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: Roost / Crunch
item: Life Orb
nature: Rash
evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Salamence's powerful mixed set is capable of cracking stall wide open, as it is capable of hitting any Pokemon in the entire game very hard. Draco Meteor's 140 base power provides a wealth of immediate strength and Fire Blast hits Steel-types like Jirachi, Skarmory, and Metagross. Flamethrower is a more reliable but significantly less powerful option in Fire Blast's stead; usually, the power drop isn't worth the raised accuracy. Brick Break strikes most Pokemon that can take the special attacks potently, Pokemon like Blissey, Empoleon, and Heatran, 2HKOing all three with Stealth Rock down, and OHKOes Tyranitar. Roost is the more commonly used option in the fourth slot, canceling out Life Orb's recoil to an extent and helping against other residual damage; however, Crunch is available to hit Cresselia and Dusknoir after they suffer a Draco Meteor.</p>

<p>Rash nature and Life Orb ensure that MixMence hits as hard as possible; it needs the boosts to pick up the 2HKOs and OHKOs that it absolutely needs to get. Again, 176 Speed EVs returns 280 Speed, outrunning Adamant Lucario. One can, however, experiment with different Attack and Special Attack weightings, depending on one's team and personal experience or preference.</p>

[SET]
name: Double Deuce
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Outrage / Roost
item: Life Orb
nature: Mild
evs: 84 Atk / 216 SpA / 208 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A variation on the standard MixMence, this time making use of Salamence's balanced offensive stats and ridiculously high-powered STAB moves in Draco Meteor and Outrage. Earthquake and Fire Blast are obvious choices to combat Steel-types that resist your Dragon attacks. Roost is an alternative over Outrage to recover Stealth Rock and Life Orb damage but should be considered a lesser option.</p>

<p>The EVs are specifically designed to combat a few of Salamence's most common switch-ins. The given EVs allow Salamence to KO 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Cresselia on average with Stealth Rock damage by a combination of Draco Meteor on the switch-in and then two repeated Outrages. The Attack EVs also guarantee that Outrage 2HKOs the most defensive of Bold Blissey with Stealth Rock. 208 Speed EVs assure that Salamence outruns all Gyarados prior to a Dragon Dance. Mild is chosen over Rash so that Cresselia's or Blissey's weaker Ice Beams do not KO.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Aqua Tail
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Earthquake / Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
item: Choice Band
nature: Naive / Naughty
evs: 248 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Salamence makes fantastic use of Choice Band due to its impressive stats and accommodating move pool. It is also very effective because most opponents will be anticipating the more common Dragon Dance or Mixed sets allowing Salamence to use the element of surprise to its advantage.</p>

<p>Outrage is expected for the high base power and STAB while Aqua Tail complements this surprisingly well. Aqua Tail is useful against Hippowdon and Gliscor, both of whom are 2HKOed the majority of the time with Stealth Rock damage. Aqua Tail is also a safety option against Heatran, Magnezone, and Metagross if you fear locking yourself into Earthquake. Fire Blast is for the obvious Skarmory and is your best option against Celebi without having to lock yourself into Outrage. Earthquake is standard fare and an all around excellent offensive move, it is specifically helpful for Steel-types and is your best option against Tyranitar. Stone Edge should also be considered in the final slot for physically defensive Zapdos, who is OHKOed 74.36% of the time with Stealth Rock damage, and also provides a way to kill opposing Salamence and Gyarados without locking yourself into Outrage. Dragon Claw is also a decent move to consider, in particular when coupling Salamence with Magnezone support, as a secondary STAB if you worry about locking yourself into Outrage. If coverage against bulky Ground-types is of little concern any of the options in the fourth slot are acceptable alternatives to Aqua Tail.</p>

<p>A Naive nature is used to get the jump on neutral Speed natured base 100 Speed Pokemon and positive Speed natured base 90s, while not weakening the power of Fire Blast; although Naughty is still a viable option to increase Salamence's Attack to guarantee 2HKOes on bulkier Pokemon such as Hippowdon. Alternatively, you can run a nature that does not effect your Defenses and simply opt for Fire Fang. Maximum Attack and Speed should be rather obvious while the small investment in Special Attack guarantees Salamence 2HKOes 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Celebi with Fire Blast after Stealth Rock damage.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Hydro Pump
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Naughty
evs: 252 Atk / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Salamence boasts extraordinary offensive prowess on both ends of the attacking spectrum, but its Speed sometimes falls short of what is necessary, so a mixed Choice Scarf set is natural. Such a Salamence is well-suited for sweeping late-game, when most opposing Pokemon are weakened; Outrage is perfectly tailored for cleaning up, and Earthquake and Fire Blast ensure that no Pokemon is capable of resisting Salamence's attacks. Hydro Pump rounds out this set nicely considering it easily 2HKOes Hippowdon, Donphan, and Gliscor, Pokemon that would otherwise give this set problems. Draco Meteor is usable over another move, likely Hydro Pump.</p>

<p>Fortuitously, maximizing Salamence's Attack gives it just enough power to 2HKO all Vaporeon after integrating Stealth Rock damage and Leftovers recovery. The 176 Speed EVs result in 280 Speed, outrunning all base 90 Speed Pokemon not possessing a Speed-boosting nature, and Timid Heatran along the way. The remainder is invested in Special Attack to provide a boost to Fire Blast and Hydro Pump, though it doesn't convert any significant 3HKOs into 2HKOs or 2HKOs into OHKOs.</p>

[SET]
name: Specially Bulky
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Roost
item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
nature: Adamant
evs: 236 HP / 64 Atk / 112 SpD / 96 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Salamence's spectacular offenses often mask its more than decent defensive abilities, which this specially bulky set attempts to take advantage of. This is a more defensive set than the previous ones and pivots on being able to Roost after a single attack and effectively set-up Dragon Dances. Both Outrage and Dragon Claw are viable moves depending on how you intend on playing this Salamence. If your intent is to continually Dragon Dance and Roost as you set up, Dragon Claw with Life Orb is your best choice. If your intent is to Dragon Dance and take a few Ice Beams as you Attack, then Outrage with Lum Berry is your best choice. Earthquake remains a useful complement to the STAB Dragon attack. Dragon Dance and Roost feed into the fact that this set is not entirely defensive, but rather takes advantage of some unexpected defensive power to score unusually placed boosts and eventually sweep while Roost maintains Salamence's health.</p>

<p>The EVs ensure that this Salamence will survive an unSTABed Hidden Power Ice from 359 Special Attack, such as from Timid Choice Scarf Gengar, or Ice Beam from 269 Special Attack. As most Water-types don't possess that much Special Attack, Salamence can often beat them with a combination of Roost, Dragon Dance, and Dragon Claw or Outrage. 92 Speed EVs returns 259, sufficient to outrun Timid Shaymin-S and Modest Choice Scarf Heatran after a single Dragon Dance, effectively putting the latter into a checkmate position. Modest Heatran is incapable of outrunning this Salamence and thus would be OHKOed by Earthquake, but Timid Heatran's maximum Special Attack is 359 and thus would not be able to deal more than 90% to Salamence. 259 Speed is also enough to outrun Jolly Weavile after a Dragon Dance, but it is recommended to check for Ice Shard before attacking it. 64 Attack EVs guarantee that 404 HP / 361 Def Suicune is 2HKOed with Outrage after Stealth Rock damage. If you opt to use Dragon Claw you may want to consider investing slightly more in Attack.</p>

<p>An alternative spread for this set, to make it fully special defensive, is to use a Careful nature with Leftovers and an EV spread of 252 HP / 164 SpD / 92 Spe. Leftovers' health recovery gives this Salamence much more surviviability, at least nullifying the detrimental effects of possible sandstorm or hail, letting this Salamence switch in more often. 56 HP / 124 Atk / 232 SpD / 92 Spe with an Adamant nature is another alternative for slightly better Special Defensive abilities and will also allow you to 2HKO 444 HP / 372 Def Cresselia with Outrage on average after Stealth Rock damage.</p>

[SET]
name: Physically Bulky
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers / Lum Berry
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Although this set's moves are identical to those of the Specially Bulky set, the EV spread causes it to be played very differently. Salamence is surprisingly durable on the physical end, augmented by Intimidate's Attack-reducing effect. While Leftovers is likely the superior item choice to lessen the effects of sandstorm and hail, Lum Berry is still a very good item to consider if you opt for Outrage and just to avoid status attacks in general. The EVs ensure that after Intimidate, a Choice Scarf Heracross does no more than 46% with Stone Edge, guaranteeing Salamence's survival even with a critical hit; Lucario's Life Orb and Swords Dance boosted Extremespeed will also never 2HKO. The EVs also attain 280 Speed, which is important to outrun Adamant Lucario so Salamence won't be OHKOed by Ice Punch; on the way, 280 Speed also outruns Timid Choice Scarf Heatran and Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross after a Dragon Dance. Unfortunately, this Salamence is incapable of dealing with Bronzong, Skarmory, and Scizor, one of the greatest physical threats around, unless it uses Flamethrower or Fire Blast, forcing it to split its EVs. Thus, Magnezone support is highly recommended when using this set.</p>

<p>This set can be made more offensive with an Adamant nature and Life Orb, though that significantly cuts down on its durability. If you desire to outrun Jolly Lucario in fear of Ice Punch, and other positive Speed base 90s, an alternative spread available is 192 HP / 140 Def / 176 Spe, with again a Jolly nature of your own.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Hydro Pump
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With Choice Specs Salamence's decrease in usage comes a rise in the surprise factor. Choice Specs boosted Draco Meteor is the most powerful single attack that Salamence can use in one turn without prior setup. While it is normally unwise to use two offensive attacks of the same type in a single moveset, there are some exceptions, such as here; Dragon Pulse is best used for late-game sweeping, whereas Draco Meteor makes an enormous impact earlier. Flamethrower complements the Dragon-type attacks well, and Hydro Pump picks off the rest, including Pokemon like Heatran, Bastiodon, and Probopass. Hydro Pump is also an incredibly useful coverage move in situations where your prediction may be less than perfect.</p>

<p>Choice Specs Salamence's usage has dropped dramatically from levels during the primordial metagame because it has absolutely no way of bypassing Blissey. However, it is still an incredibly potent threat and should in no way be underestimated or neglected.</p>

[SET]
name: Purely Defensive
move 1: Roost
move 2: Wish / Toxic
move 3: Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
move 4: Flamethrower
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This particular Salamence is suited to take hits from Heracross, Lucario, and various other Fighting-types. Salamence also makes a great switch-in to Scizor, especially if it lacks Iron Head (and most will). With Intimidate bolstering Salamence's Defense, it is able to switch into a variety of physical attacks. For example, a Swords Danced Life Orb Lucario's Close Combat can only manage 46-54% after Intimidate. Crunch and Extremespeed will both do even less damage. Amazingly, after an Intimidate, not even Ice Punch will be able to OHKO this Salamence with the given EVs.</p>

<p>Roost gives Salamence an instant 50% recovery move while removing one of its weaknesses and reducing another. Wish allows Salamence to support the team while offering a secondary form of healing for itself. Toxic is a plausible option that allows Salamence to wear down defensive threats. Draco Meteor is Salamence's most powerful attack, allowing it to hit hard even without Special Attack investment, but if the negative side-effect is too much to bear Dragon Pulse is an option. Flamethrower offers great coverage when paired with Draco Meteor and allows Salamence to 2HKO Skarmory and OHKO both Forretress and Scizor. Earthquake is another option on the set that could be used in order to more easily take on Heatran. Even with a Bold nature and 0 Attack EVs, Salamence still has a 92.3% chance to OHKO a 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran.</p>

<p>The EVs allow Salamence maximum physical durability while still retaining the ability to outrun Adamant Lucario. As with the previous sets, if you desire to outrun Jolly Lucario you may consider running 176 Speed EVs.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Yache Berry (Ice-resist) is a viable option on the Dragon Dancer, but Dragonite makes better use of it with his superior defenses. You can run Aerial Ace if you really hate Heracross, but it's largely unneeded. The 100 base power Dragon Rush may be appetizing, but its 75% accuracy sure isn't. There are plenty of move combinations and EV spreads that Salamence can use with a Choice Scarf, be it all physical, special or mixed; however, the given Choice Scarf set it probably your best option if you want to make use of the item.</p>

<p>Hidden Power Ground is a viable option over Hydro Pump on the Choice Specs set, given its ability to guarantee an OHKO on Heatran regardless of its HP investment and its super effectiveness against Empoleon. However, it has very little utility and Hydro Pump is almost always better due to its higher base power and all around better coverage. It's often unwise to have a Pokemon locked into a Ground-type attack, though, since many of the most dangerous threats in the game, including Gengar, Gyarados, and Salamence itself are immune to the type. The only reason to even consider it over Hydro Pump is because of its superior accuracy.</p>

<p>Pairing Salamence with a Rapid Spinner to keep Stealth Rock off the field will prolong Salamence's lifespan. Getting your hands on a Wish Jirachi will greatly benefit you, as Salamence and Jirachi cover each other's weaknesses perfectly. Salamence is weak to Ice, Rock and Dragon attacks, all of which Jirachi resists, and Jirachi is weak to Ground and Fire and takes neutral damage from Fighting and Bug, all of which Salamence resists or is immune to. For those reason, Jirachi will easily be able to pass Wishes to Salamence to lessen the effects of Stealth Rock.</p>

[EVs]
<p>Due to Salamence's stat distribution and Intimidate he can really be EVed to accomplish just about anything. For the more complicated spreads, you'll want to use what was recommended prior to accomplish the specific goals listed. Generally speaking, you'll want to either pump Salamence's offenses or play up its defenses to capitalize on Intimidate. You should generally aim for either 270 Speed or 299 Speed, with either Attack or Special Attack at 252 EVs and the rest in Salamence's respectable 95 base HP. The 328 Speed a Jolly or Naive nature offers will probably still not be fast enough to offset the drop in power in the long run, but they are options none the less.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Salamence is arguably one of the biggest threats in DPP since it can hit very hard from both ends of the damage spectrum without needing to set up. There is literally no one counter to Salamence until you know its moveset, and even then it can be a challenge to take. Its versatility makes it a fantastic early-, mid- and late-game Pokémon as well, which is not something you can say about a lot of Pokémon. If you use it wisely, Salamence should win you a lot of battles. However, it's not without its faults. You will have to account for both Stealth Rock and sandstream since non-Leftovers Salamence will take a minimum 25% (Stealth Rock) + 6.25% (Sand Stream) + 6.25% (Sand Stream) = 37.5% damage every time it switches in and attacks, and this is assuming it is untouched by your opponent's Pokémon. More often than not, residual damage will be Salamence's worst enemy.</p>

[Counters]
<p>Bronzong is a nice initial switch into any Salamence, but it should be Sassy with a lot of HP and SpD EVs to maximize the power of Gyro Ball and not drop the power of Explosion as well. A defensively EVed Gliscor with Ice Fang and Roost can come in on all but the Draco Meteor variants, and an Impish, defensively EVed Rhyperior will sponge physical attacks nicely. However, both Gliscor and Rhyperior must be in excellent health since a Dragon Danced Life Orb Outrage (or even Earthquake in the case of Rhyperior) will easily 2HKO. Porygon2 is arguably the best counter to any physical-based Salamence due to its unique ability to Trace Intimidate, further it can cripple Salamence with either Thunder Wave or Ice Beam.</p>

<p>Nothing really counters the DD Salamence set well at all. As stated prior, Porygon2 is your best option here. Bronzong is your next best bet, but Bronzong can be 2HKOed by a Life Orb Fire Blast. The key to keeping Dragon Dance Salamence in check is either by intelligent prediction or by utilizing an effective revenge killer. Arguably the most efficient means of dealing with DD Salamence is to lure it into locking itself into Outrage, and then switching in a physically defensive Steel-type such as Skarmory or Registeel. Alternatively, having a faster Pokemon with access to Ice Beam, such as Choice Scarf Starmie, can also be an effective check against DD Salamence.</p>

<p>Hippowdon and Cresselia make decent initial switch-ins against the Choice Band set, but are vulnerable to 2HKOes from Outrage, or even Aqua Tail in the case of Hippowdon. Gyarados with Ice Fang or Avalanche can switch into physical variants thanks to Intimidate, but it should be very bulkily EVed. Weezing can come in on physical variants and use Will-O-Wisp and or Pain Split accordingly. Suicune has a harder time handling Choice Band Salamence compared to Advance thanks to the now-physical Dragon Claw and powerful Outrage, and it is nearly OHKOed by Draco Meteor, but can still switch in sometimes. And while Milotic handles special attacks better than Suicune does, it is not a general Salamence counter since a Choice Banded Dragon Claw is a 2HKO half the time on a physically defensive Milotic and is guaranteed with Outrage.</p>

<p>Ice Shard Donphan / Mamoswine / Weavile can come in if Salamence faints a Pokémon and ward it off 100% of the time, but the only one of those three that can actually switch into Salamence is Donphan, and that's only on the physical variants, preferably the Dragon Dance Salamence. This works especially well if Salamence is locked into Outrage since it will be unable to switch out.</p>

<p>Blissey and Empoleon counter SpecsMence versions (the latter if Calm and properly EVed), and a Calm Cresselia can shrug off SpecsMence's attacks well provided there's no Sandstorm. A Careful Registeel with Ice Punch can handle SpecsMence in a pinch as well, even in spite of the weakness to Fire. A Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power Ice Heatran can handle SpecsMence to some degree, but you will need a large HP / SpD EV investment. Stone Edge Cradily would function similarly provided you max its HP and Special Defense and use it in a Sand Stream to boost its Special Defense.</p>

<p>Assuming you have Stealth Rock up, if you can force Salamence to switch out, you have already gone a long way towards dealing with it.</p>

Alright, this is my "rough draft" but I figure I have enough done for people to start commentating.

As I said in the other thread, there is no reason to have maximum speed on DDmence. 285 or 290 is plenty. Why would you lower your attack power to attempt to tie with other Salamence? The only time this would happen is if:

1. You attack with your Salamence, and do not outright kill their Salamence switchin, because you didn't use Outrage or Draco Meteor. You're at -1 attack, and severely disadvantaged. Switch in a Steel to take the inevitable Outrage or Draco Meteor.

2. You Dragon Dance on the switch to their Salamence. Scarfed Salamence runs 280 speed, so you outrun it. Free kill, scarfed or not.

3. You and your opponent both double switch and bring in a Salemence each. It would be wise to switch back out again as they will either Outrage, Draco Meteor or switch themselves. With -1 attack, they're not a huge threat. If you're stupid enough to Outrage or Draco Meteor their Salamence, you probably just gave them a free switch to set up on you with.


There is NEVER an occasion where you will want to either risk a speed tie with a Salamence switch in, or want to gamble in a Salamence double switch. The speed can be dropped, the attack can be maximized, and you still have a few EVs left over.

The difference between running maximum Attack and running 232 Attack EVs is 5 stat points. I'd prefer to at worst Speed tie with base 100s.

Standard Ladder:
Jirachi | Item | Choice Scarf | 42.3

Celebi | Item | Choice Scarf | 8.5

Flygon | Item | Choice Scarf | 44.5

Staraptor | Item | Choice Scarf | 31.5

Zapdos | Item | Other (4) | < 8.1
(I'm willing to bet most of these are Choice Scarf since I can't see what item besides Leftovers and Life Orb you'd be using and those are already listed)

5 stat points is not worth losing Speed ties.

5 stat points is an extra 1% damage boost. You're also forgetting the other extra EVs you get from lowering your speed.

Out of the pokemon you have shown, on the Choice Scarf sets in their respective analysis: Jirachi never runs 299 speed, Celebi runs a Timid nature, exceeding 299 speed, Flygon never runs 299 speed, Staraptor never runs 299 speed.

8% of Zapdos run Choice Scarf... big deal!? And again, on the analysis, they run 280 speed. Yup, all these Pokemon either run 280, or 300+. I'd rather take my extra attack points than tying with theoretical Pokemon who simply do not exist.

196 Speed EVs hits 285 Speed, which not only outruns all those scarfed 280 speed Pokemon after a Dragon Dance, but even the odd 284 scarfed Pokemon. This frees up 56 EVs. 20 of these can be added to attack, and then you have 36 more to do whatever you want with. Probably put them in Special Attack. The final spread would be 252 Atk / 60 SpA / 196 Spe. Alternatively, you could put those 36 EVs into HP.

EDIT: On the Choice Band set, remove Magnezone and Metagross as Pokemon you will be hitting with Aqua Tail please... even backed by 600 attack, you aren't going to be 2HKOing them (172 HP Magnezone has a 37% chance with SR down). Hinting to the player that using Aqua Tail on these Pokemon would yield impressive results is highly misleading.

NOOB said:

5 stat points is not worth losing Speed ties.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

Also, I'm going to bring something up in the last thread in here: I really think Adamant/ Jolly should be listed over Naive on CB. Why? Fire Fang does a great job at taking out Scizor and Skarmory with more accuracy, even if it does less damage to the two than Fire Blast. I constantly rely on Salamence to stop Infernape and I use it to sometimes switch into Heatran, and a Naive nature would really hinder me from doing that. Adamant also gives you a 3HKO with Outrage on Relaxed Bronzong and a 2HKO on physical wall Hippo, and if you want your Salamence to be a good stall breaker (which is what CB does) then Adamant should be your perferred nature, not Naive.

Can you cut all the hype? Not that it's unjustified, but it's really, really annoying to see "wow this is the best pokemon ever you should use it" every other line.

I'm going to double check soon that you have all of aldaron's crazy niche sets in here, as they all work.

Porygon2 needs mention as a DD mence counter.

5 stat points is not worth losing Speed ties.

Click to expand...

speed tying with WHAT?


@ Caelum:

On the Choice Band set, remove Magnezone and Metagross as Pokemon you will be hitting with Aqua Tail please... even backed by 600 attack, you aren't going to be 2HKOing them (172 HP Magnezone has a 37% chance with SR down). Hinting to the player that using Aqua Tail on these Pokemon would yield impressive results is highly misleading.

I'd have to say skiddle is right, here.

I'd also have to say that Chris is right. He's referring to these sets/spreads. I can attest to their effectiveness.

My first comment is in the set order. I don't think I've EVER seen a Specially Bulky Salamence, lol. Also, ScarfMence is kinda rare as well. At least, its rarer than both variations of Mixmence. It should probably look like:

Dragon Dance
MixMence2 (Mixmence v.2 is actually better than Mixmence 1. I call it the Mixed Bomber if that gaves you an idea for a name.. meh)
MixMence1
Choice Band
Choice Scarf
Physically Bulky
Choice Specs
Defensive
Specially Bulky

So moving on to the sets:

@ Dragon Dance: I talked to you before about this. I would mention Dragon Claw as an option alongside Fire Blast and Stone Edge. A lot of people "bait" Outrages by sending in weakened flying pokemon then sending in your steel. Dragon Claw eliminates that tactic completely and really can help get a sweep.

So something along the lines of

Dragon Dance
Outrage
Earthquake
Fire Blast / Stone Edge / Dragon Claw

@ Mixmence2:

I would change the EV spread and describe this set a little more, like how it plays differently to Mixmence 1. For starters, go with the spread 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe, Naive (Salamence should always be -SpD). This Mixmence plays differently in the fact that Draco Metoer and Flamethrower + Earthquake and Outrage will be hitting everything neutral on both sides of the attacking spectrum. So with the extra speed, this Salamence actually poses a sweeping threat, rather than just a standard wall-breaker, like Mixmence 1. With this set, you can Draco Meteor your first victim, Earthquake the next pokemon for a KO, then Outrage the last 2 for a win for example, whereas MixMence 1 would have to switch out. You are more likely to pull this off with 328 Speed than with 280 speed, so the extra speed is required for the set to work most efficiently. Also, no extra attack EVs net any noticeable KOs, Since Outrage is going be doing 66-78% to the Smogon standard Blissey with Life Orb, I don't think you really need any investment as it isn't netting any noticeable OHKOs to 2HKOs, etc. Many can also attest to the effectiveness of the higher speed on this set.

Small request, but Flamethrower is more useful in most cases than Fire Blast. Earthquake is your only 100% accurate move on this set, and there may be situations when a weakened flying Pokemon can be finished off but you don't want to lock yourself into Outrage, risk missing with a Draco Meteor, or more importantly, kill your special attack to finish off a weakened opponent, or rely on Fire Blast's shitty accuracy. Flamethrower will still OHKO Skarmory and pretty much all of the things Fire Blast will. 252 HP Metagross I think is the only OHKO Fire Blast gets, and that isn't guarenteed.

Also, Dragon Dance needs to be slashed on this set, probably with Fire Flast / Flamethrower. SDS can attest to its effectiveness. It plays just like standard Mence, but you can Draco Meteor your first victim. Also, many of your "counters" such as Vaporeon / Suicune, will be 2HKOed by switching directly into Draco Meteor so you can finish them up later when you go for a sweep. So my suggestion for the set is:

Draco Meteor
Earthquake
Outrage
Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Dragon Dance
4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe


@ Physically Bulky: Life Orb deserves a mention for item. Also, bump the speed up to 176 EVs. Physically bulky Salamence is best known for serving the function of a Lucario / Heracross counter, and having a lategame chance to sweep. Well, Jolly Lucario are all packing Ice Punch, so you aren't countering them unless you are faster. I found Life Orb to be a very good item for that set since it can net some extra power for when you actually do attack. This is the EV spread I run:

192 HP / 140 Def / 176 Spe, Jolly and it yields:

379 HP / 306 Atk / 231 Def / 230 SpA / 196 SpD / 308 Spe

Good Life Orb number, Speed for Lucario, rest in defense. At least deserves an alternate EV mention. Although you can't switch into Heracross' Stone Edge (wtf are you doing that for anyway, it 2HKOS either spread w/ SR!), you still take those two on quite easily, and can switch into Heatran since Fire Blast will never 2HKO with Sandstorm and Stealth Rock. Also, just remove Outrage from this set. Outrage = Death, especially when you spend time setting up.

Those are my suggestions for those two since I've fucked around with them quite extensively. Had one last comment:

@ Defensive: I would probably just go Bold and do a Zapdos spread:

252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe

@ My ChainMence... Ditch it.. lol. I used it on my team back when Deoxys-E was first introduced... its outdated.

Again, you either go to 308 to outspeed all Lucario because they will Ice Punch you, or just forget about countering him and maximize Defenses.

EDIT: And Skiddle, in regards to dropping Mence's Speed down to 280 on the Dragon Dancer, I would rather not let those damned Scarf-Rotoms outspeed me :-P!

Thats all my comments for now, Caelum. Good work!

I'm not a fain of CB Aqua Tail when Adamant Choice Band Outrage 2HKOs Hippowdon (Gliscor is already pwnt) anyway. The accuracy and stuff sucks, plus there's a 50% chance you can switch out after the KO.

Considering you can't run both Earthquake and Dragon Claw then (to do good neutral damage and not be walled by bulky steels), I don't see why it's primary.

I'm not removing it because, as stated, it is a "safety prediction" option. I never implied it did substantial amount to other Steel-types (although you actually make my case for mentioning Magnezone with that calc you provided me). Jumpman16 has probably explained what I'm trying to show here best whether it be in Starmie, Salamence, or other threads. Certain moves (in this case Aqua Tail) are useful as "safe" prediction options and that's all that statement was attempting to imply.

I can slash things, but it's an incredibly useful move.

Ok, for the mixmence, I was under the impression that Raikou Lover's mixmence set was deemed the most effective? Was I mistaken? Just to repost it.

[SET]
name: MixMence
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Dragon Dance
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

As long as I'm on the subject of special bulky mence and raikou lover, you most definitely have seen one, as I've used against you.

Speaking of special bulky, I liked aldaron's set much more than the listed one:

DD Bulky Roost Mence (Salamence) (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 56 HP/124 Atk/96 Spd/232 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Roost

The old one was mad to withstand starmie, vaporeon, and milotic ice beams when all of them were ev'd to ohko garchomp. But now that chomp is gone, I think that old set is outdated.

When it comes to cbmence, I think it should be adamant/jolly instead of naive. First, adamant gives you guaranteed 2hkos against both cressy and hippo, something + speed mence can't do. Secondly, getting the 2hko with fire blast on celebi isn't that important at all, seeing as how outrage is a 2hko anyways. With something that can't boost its speed, it needs to be able to take a hit. (EDIT, my example was incorrect, but the point still stands.)

in response to the speed thing, I'd much rather just max speed. if anything, in "last pokemon" situations you can beat bulky kingdra.

I'll probably have more to say later, but that's it for now.

For the most part, I loved all of aldaron's sets and found them very effective.

Yeah, Aqua Tail does the same thing accept you can switch out. Water hits great neutrality also, as already mentioned.

The thing I used to bug Aldaron about is why use Special Defensive Salamence when you have Dragonite and Light Screen, and even that is somewhat difficult to use effectively. I probably wouldn't waste my time Dragon Dancing on Ice Beamers when I can A) switch out, or B) hit them on the switch with Draco Meteor or something

Alright, if the natures can't be argued (and I don't have much of a problem with this at all) I have many less arguments. And thank you for adding in the + nature option to the cb set.

It seems as if many people here have trouble understanding the special bulky set. I think maybe there needs to be more explanations in the set comments? Basically, it can set up on things that you don't expect mence to be able to set up on. For example, defensive zapdos. After a dragon dance, you outspeed all zapdos and can roost off (resisting electric attacks) any damage, using lum berry in case of paralysis. You can then proceed to sweep. Aldaron explains it much better in his post. It definitely plays different than all other mence sets, and might be harder to pull off, but I would hardly refer to it as "mediocre". In either case, hardly any pokemon go for the old 266 number, hence why I thought the set was outdated and the new one was superior, while still being able to take ice attacks like timid scarftran hp ice.

name: Specially Bulky
move 1: Dragon Claw
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Dragon Dance
move 4: Roost
item: Life Orb
nature: Adamant
evs: 152 HP / 12 Atk / 252 SpD / 92 Spe

Click to expand...

I would recommend 4 more speed evs (subtracting from attack?), as this would allow for the out pacing of neutral natured base 80s, which with 252 evs also reach 259.
This would also, regretfully on my part, make this salamence clearly superior to dragonites, who actually are inferior even prior to this change in terms of special bulk when matching the speed and attack stats.
Salamence:
369 x 259 = 95571
Dragonite:
323 x 295 = 95285
And, of course, as such a set is much more predictable on a dragonite, making salamence easily the favored dragon choice if this is the set one wanted to run.
Although, dragonite does have light screen.

EDIT:
I just checked, and the set posted by scofield has 96 speed evs.
And again, the set isn't really inferior to dragonite.

You're comparing a Pokémon running 152 / 252 with a Pokémon running some other spread? Dragonite can basically do "the same set" better. Also, multiplying the stats does not get you defensive potential and anyone who tells you that is lying.

Dragonite also has Light Screen and a great Special Defense.

@caelum, I can't justify the ev's, just that the set is effective. Feel free to try to make a better spread and I'll check it out for myself later to verify that it is indeed better, just to be thorough, not because I think you're wrong.

@chris, I see the dragonite/salamence comparisons for the special sets to be the same as for the mix sets. You can argue that either of them "do it better" but really they just do it differenty. It is a viable set for both pokemon, and should be posted on both of their analysis's. It's up to the user to decide which is "better" for their team.

No, I'm comparing Salamence with a Dragonite with 0/238.
It needs the 252 speed evs to match Salamence's speed, and I through 20 into attack so it matches the attack stat.
However, ignoring attack (and instead running 252 speed, and 6/252 in hp/sp. def), we have:
324 x 299 = 96876
Which is slightly more.

Lets compare the important base stats:
Speed: 100 v. 80
Special defense: 80 v. 100
HP: 95 v. 91
If you are running a +ATK nature, then that means you need evs to pump up all three stats. Salamence has a clear advantage when both try to run enough speed to out pace timid heatran, as dragonite is forced into massive speed invetments, meaning that it is then behind simply because of the 4 less base hp.

EDIT:
I'm trying to argue that if I wanted to run dragon claw/earthquake/dragon dance/roost, that salamence is clearly the better choice over dragonite. Although, it isn't at all inferior when it comes to trying to set up on special pokemon due to lightscreen.
I agree with scofield; both have their merits, and neither here really obsoletes the other (when it comes to this set; the usage statistics tell a very different story when it comes to general use).

Really the point is. Why would you leave your Salamence in on an Ice Beamer? What if theres Stealth Rock? Now you can't survive that hit and your whole "plan" is fucked.

The difference is, Dragonite can Dragon Dance, then Light Screen in front of the Ice Beam, then restore ~30% of his health with each Roost. If Salamence Roosts, hes only getting a net gain of about 5-10% of his health since Ice Beam is still taking you back 40-45% even when Roosting. So I don't really see how this is effective... Dragonite can attempt the same thing, get 2-3 DDs in, Roost back up to good health, and be done before supper.

The way Aldaron described his set is that you Dragon Dance, then you Outrage as they Ice Beam you and you survive with roughly 10% of your health, then you kill them. But wtf? You walk away confused or locked in and at 10% health, and this is in perfect conditions as Sandstorm and Stealth Rock just fuck this whole plan over.

Scrap the specially defensive set. I see you might be able to use it on something like Zapdos, and buy an Electric resist while roosting, but the damn physically bulky set can do the same thing...

@ For any set using a combination of Dragon Dance, Roost, Earthquake, and Dragon Attack with bulky EVs, I would scrap Outrage from all those sets as an option.. it sucks and makes all your hard work go to waste when they send in the steel to kill you.

Hippowdon and Cresselia make great counters to any Choice Band set

Click to expand...

^^^ That's a joke right?

I don't want to get too far off topic, arguing about the merits of special mence, but it's not just for ice beamers. Being able to set up against something like gengar (shadow ball does pitiful damage) is really helpful. Yeah SR is up, but that's what spinners are for. SS only really hurts you when you are depending on survivng that hp ice. This thing can set up on just about any non ice non stab attack, and even some stab ones (gengar shadow ball again). This mence is best used for a late game sweep. I often just wait for an opening, something like a scarfgar using tbolt to set up. And an opening almost always occurs. If not, it can set up against the same things regular dd mence can set up against. Last I checked, weren't zapdos and heatran 2 of the most used pokemon in the game? It's one thing to argue that the set is mediocre, but that it should be removed completely?

Also, the set comments that you are referring to are from the old set, the new set doesn't work the same. The old one absolutely needed more than 1 dd, survive at 10% and roosting back up. The new one is meant to roost, take the hit, and then hitting back with outrage (hope they use twave or status, since that buys you an extra turn), notice that LO is no longer on the set, as the recoil is unwelcome now and you now have more power than you did with dragon claw.

On the new set, you'd just about never use roost against an ice beamer, roost is for those shadow balls and the ilk.

It's a solid set, dissect it all you want, change the spread, but I think it definitely deserves to be on the analysis.

Is there any particular reason why Fire Blast has been snubbed in favor of Flamethrower on the Choice Specs set? I find Fire Blast's additional power to be a godsend.

525 SpA Flamethrower vs 252/0 Metagross = 90% - 107% (41% chance of an OHKO)
525 SpA Fire Blast vs 252/0 Metagross = 114% - 135%

525 SpA Flamethrower vs 252/0 Celebi/Jirachi = 75% -88%
525 SpA Fire Blast vs 252/0 Celebi/Jirachi = 95% - 111% (67% chance of an OHKO)

525 SpA Flamethrower vs 252/96 Sassy Bronzong = 66% - 78%
525 SpA Fire Blast vs 252/96 Sassy Bronzong = 83% - 98% (28% chance of an OHKO with SR)

Sure, the accuracy bites at times but SpecsMence is all about OHKOing the opponent outright and if I can sacrifice accuracy and PP to use a move that gives me a higher chance of OHKOing the 11th, 13th, 14th and 15th most common Pokemon on the Standard Ladder then I will. The additional power is useful in other situations too when your prediction isn't quite right (for example, Flamethrower will never 2HKO 252/0 Zapdos whereas Fire Blast deals up to 64%).

Just small grammar nitpicks:

[Choice Scarf]

Hydro Pump rounds out this set nicely considering it easily 2HKOes Hippowdon, Donphan, and Gliscor, Pokemon that would otherwise give this set problems.

Click to expand...

The verb form of '2HKO' is '2HKOes'.

[MixMence V1]

Flamethrower is a more reliable but significantly less powerful option in Fire Blast's stead; usually, the power drop isn't worth the raised accuracy<.> Brick Break strikes most Pokemon that can take the special attacks potently, Pokemon like Blissey, Empoleon, and Heatran, 2HKOing all three with Stealth Rock down, and OHKOes Tyranitar

Click to expand...

Missing a full stop, and 'OHKOes'.

This is more like OO material but could there be a mention that Dargon Claw can replace Outrage on the DD set (and most sets for that matter.) I always run Salamence with Dragon Claw and I have had great success with it.

Why Naive or Naughty on the Dragon Dance set too? Ice Beam is common and Salamence needs all the help it can get to survive one of those. You've also got Intimidate. Lonely or Hasty would be better, in my opinion.

Also just a minor nitpick: In the SpecMence area, it mentions how usage has dropped. I think mention of usage is a bad idea because usage will change over time. How do we know that in 3 months SpecsMence will make a comeback and that phrase will still be in the analysis? We don't.

Will post later with grammer corrections and such.

We can change analyses when that happens. SpecsMence becomes more viable as it is used less, so mention of its usage is certainly not a bad idea.